S01.E10: Sins Of The Father

[LisaM]

Binge watched all of the episodes over 2 days to get ready for the finale. Am in love with this show. Cookie is just wonderful; I love how she says exactly what she is thinking. Love Jamal and particularly loved the duet he did with Delphine .Can't wait for the Bunky secret to come out because you know that it will.

[phoenics]

The Musketeers just did a similar praying scene (that went even further into weird territory), so the Andre/therapist scene seemed tame to me. (And I was part of a born-again Christian group one summer that did a lot of one-on-one praying that delved really uncomfortably into territory that had little to do with prayer.)

   I've read through the discussions about whether the show addresses this or that topic in a way that fairly or unfairly reflects upon a race of people, and it's just sad that, even in 2015, we cannot have flawed and nuanced characterizations of any person, whatever their race, gender, orientation, happen to be, I know that, for gays, there's been a push to only show us in the most positive light as possible, after years of token depictions which were amost universally negative and/or miserable. Now, we are depicted in almost every genre, and, sadly, the edict still seems to be in effect, which, frankly, makes some of our depictions boring. That's why I lament the loss of Michael, who might have fleshed out Jamal's character, and not forced him into being a "Mary Sue", who has no flaws, lest those flaws be taken as a slap against the gay community as a whole.

    The number of blacks in the cast (Naomi Campbell is not, AFAIK, American, so African-American doesn't cover) SHOULD allow for a range of characters and attitudes without each one having to reflect the black community, a freedom which makes Empire so good, as it doesn't play "safe".

  Strangely, Rhonda is in the token role on the show that would have gone to a black character decades ago.

The reason we find it hard to have "nuance" is that the depictions aren't diverse typically. That's why often you will see the black community be very uncomfortable with negative or problematic portrayals of us in media - because typically we don't get enough diversity to see all facets of us. We usually get ONLY the tropes and stereotypes.

It's just sad that in 2015, we can't even express this angst, given that there are SO MANY negative tropes depicting us in media today.

Just because this show has a lot of black people on it doesn't meant that it's infallible, nor does it mean that we can't criticize it if we see those same tropes without something else to balance it out. Because if there's nothing there to balance it out, then it's just a trope - just like on all of the other shows that have token black folk on them.

And if there isn't a correlation between certain types of religion and the African-American community, why do you use terms like "the black Christian church" and "our religion" (my emphasis)? If you criticize Lee Daniels for unfairly generalizing about black people when it comes to homophobia , why do you generalize about black people being members of certain churches?

Probably because Sunday mornings are the most segregated time in America? Multi-cultural churches are still somewhat rare.

[Kendall]

1. Are you really claiming that homophobia is equally prevalent among all segments of US society, and completely unrelated to ethnicity and religious background? That doesn't fit with any studies on the subject I've ever seen reported.

 

2. That would be because certain religious organizations and certain pastors are publicly, stridently homophobic, others are pretty much silent on the matter, and others have become quite openly anti-homophobic, and those different attitudes aren't just randomly spread around,

 

3. Also, organized religions differ markedly in how much sway they have, or think they have, over the attitudes of their members. A great many Americans, even church-going ones, don't think of priests or pastors as significant authority figures any more.

 

4. And if there isn't a correlation between certain types of religion and the African-American community, why do you use terms like "the black Christian church" and "our religion" (my emphasis)? If you criticize Lee Daniels for unfairly generalizing about black people when it comes to homophobia , why do you generalize about black people being members of certain churches?

 

 

Yes. Yes, I am.

 

Are you saying that you seriously consider individuals and how they really feel when you are or whoever is making these studies about conveniently selected groups? Are you saying that a study that reports on the 47% (made up number) of religious (or whatever group one is looking to label) people that have not a care about homosexuality and who may or not be one, is more interesting than the study about the "still narrow minded, hateful, bigoted in 2015!!!" 53% (made up number) that fills the many paragraphs on the studies you've read?

 

Are you saying that all of the studies by people who are pro-soy can't find all of the research that they need to support their theory? And, the people that are pro-cow's milk can't find all of the research that they need to support their theory?

 

Are you saying that pushing the notion that the black community is so homophobic in comparison to say, the white community can't be used as a tool to once again describe that community as a lesser on yet another level? Just one more reason as to why we are dysfunctional and our children run the streets wild?

 

Because that very real piece of the puzzle doesn't "fit" the section that you are working on, means that piece of the puzzle doesn't exist?

 

Okay.

 

2. Have you really gone to every organization and heard every sermon by both the strident and the silent pastors? I have heard plenty of people give a very nice, polite, rational dissent against homsexuality and I've heard many irrational ones. The agree to disagrees won't get the same type of publicity as the fire and brimstone, but then once again, you need to consider why they are seeking that attention and also, why they are really getting that attention.

 

You don't really think that all of the many gay, black Christians are all at the silent pastors' churches do you? I love how everyone is so sure about how homophobic the black church is, when these black people are still relatives to the church members. While Cookie has only prayed once on this show, her relationship is more accurate of the average black family member, especially the religious ones, towards their gay relative than Lucious' is.

 

She has yet to say that she "believes" in homosexuality, but she is adamant that she doesn't believe in shunning Jamal or disowning him. Cookie is the personifcation of "love the sinner, hate the sin," but she doesn't fit in with what so many people need to believe about black Christians.

 

3. So, then you've just negated what you are trying imply overall. If even, church going people, don't find the leaders of the church to be the determining factor in how they feel on a daily basis, then it doesn't matter what that one person in the pulpit says, if the bulk of the parishoners simply acknowledge their words, but make their own decision on how they respond to homosexuality.

 

4. The distinction was made because that is the distinction that is made to accuse and point fingers. Black or white, everyone that ascribes to Christianity are called Christians. But, when people like Lee Daniels' wants to rail against the individuals that hurt them in their past, they use the easily defined and identifiable group, instead of the individuals.

 

It's no different from when people used to go on and on about the Nation of Islam, when they wanted to mock Muslims, but now they're afraid of the white Muslims, so now it's all of Islam, but still directed for the most part at any Muslim that is "obviously Arab" with darker skin or simply black.

 

The Boston Bombers were just fine as acceptable white men of another religion, until they blew up Boston.

[NorthstarATL]

 

Just because this show has a lot of black people on it doesn't meant that it's infallible, nor does it mean that we can't criticize it if we see those same tropes without something else to balance it out. Because if there's nothing there to balance it out, then it's just a trope - just like on all of the other shows that have token black folk on them.

That's why I made the comparison to my community. In the end, though, the defensiveness stagnates creativity, which is the greatest sin of all. IMO.

[Rick Kitchen]

Can we take the sociological discussion to a seperate thread?

[Aethera]

Hello all!  We believe this conversation is veering away from the topic, which is discussion of this episode. We're going to review the thread and possibly move or delete some items. Meanwhile, let's get back to the topic, please!

[wittier]

This show is SO ridiculous.

[JBC344]

Yes. Yes, I am.

 

Are you saying that you seriously consider individuals and how they really feel when you are or whoever is making these studies about conveniently selected groups? Are you saying that a study that reports on the 47% (made up number) of religious (or whatever group one is looking to label) people that have not a care about homosexuality and who may or not be one, is more interesting than the study about the "still narrow minded, hateful, bigoted in 2015!!!" 53% (made up number) that fills the many paragraphs on the studies you've read?

 

Are you saying that all of the studies by people who are pro-soy can't find all of the research that they need to support their theory? And, the people that are pro-cow's milk can't find all of the research that they need to support their theory?

 

Are you saying that pushing the notion that the black community is so homophobic in comparison to say, the white community can't be used as a tool to once again describe that community as a lesser on yet another level? Just one more reason as to why we are dysfunctional and our children run the streets wild?

 

Because that very real piece of the puzzle doesn't "fit" the section that you are working on, means that piece of the puzzle doesn't exist?

 

Okay.

 

2. Have you really gone to every organization and heard every sermon by both the strident and the silent pastors? I have heard plenty of people give a very nice, polite, rational dissent against homsexuality and I've heard many irrational ones. The agree to disagrees won't get the same type of publicity as the fire and brimstone, but then once again, you need to consider why they are seeking that attention and also, why they are really getting that attention.

 

You don't really think that all of the many gay, black Christians are all at the silent pastors' churches do you? I love how everyone is so sure about how homophobic the black church is, when these black people are still relatives to the church members. While Cookie has only prayed once on this show, her relationship is more accurate of the average black family member, especially the religious ones, towards their gay relative than Lucious' is.

 

She has yet to say that she "believes" in homosexuality, but she is adamant that she doesn't believe in shunning Jamal or disowning him. Cookie is the personifcation of "love the sinner, hate the sin," but she doesn't fit in with what so many people need to believe about black Christians.

 

3. So, then you've just negated what you are trying imply overall. If even, church going people, don't find the leaders of the church to be the determining factor in how they feel on a daily basis, then it doesn't matter what that one person in the pulpit says, if the bulk of the parishoners simply acknowledge their words, but make their own decision on how they respond to homosexuality.

 

4. The distinction was made because that is the distinction that is made to accuse and point fingers. Black or white, everyone that ascribes to Christianity are called Christians. But, when people like Lee Daniels' wants to rail against the individuals that hurt them in their past, they use the easily defined and identifiable group, instead of the individuals.

 

It's no different from when people used to go on and on about the Nation of Islam, when they wanted to mock Muslims, but now they're afraid of the white Muslims, so now it's all of Islam, but still directed for the most part at any Muslim that is "obviously Arab" with darker skin or simply black.

 

The Boston Bombers were just fine as acceptable white men of another religion, until they blew up Boston.

I never got the "love the sinner, hate the sin" vibe from Cookie or anyone else who supports Jamal.  Second episode Cookie walks in on Jamal and Michael having sex and then plops herself on the bed next to them.  To me that screams someone who is very comfortable with her gay son and homosexuality in general.  I would venture to say that anyone who gets in bed with a naked gay couple as casually as Cookie did, most definitely "believes" in homosexuality.

 

I think they left the Lola paternity issue open for her to return sometime in the coming seasons.  Great observation from the previous poster about Cookie not valuing her looks as a woman who looks like her most likely would.  Cookie knows she has a good body and the money now to afford the best clothes and style, but her sexuality outside of her relationship with Luscious has never been at the forefront.  She has been in jail for the last 17 years and Luscious was her husband and only man she ever slept with.  I like Cookie with Malcolm even if it brings out that side of her that we really haven't seen before.  A new relationship with a man that respects her without the baggage of history. 

[Apprentice79]

Who is to s

 

I never got the "love the sinner, hate the sin" vibe from Cookie or anyone else who supports Jamal.  Second episode Cookie walks in on Jamal and Michael having sex and then plops herself on the bed next to them.  To me that screams someone who is very comfortable with her gay son and homosexuality in general.  I would venture to say that anyone who gets in bed with a naked gay couple as casually as Cookie did, most definitely "believes" in homosexuality.

 

I think they left the Lola paternity issue open for her to return sometime in the coming seasons.  Great observation from the previous poster about Cookie not valuing her looks as a woman who looks like her most likely would.  Cookie knows she has a good body and the money now to afford the best clothes and style, but her sexuality outside of her relationship with Luscious has never been at the forefront.  She has been in jail for the last 17 years and Luscious was her husband and only man she ever slept with.  I like Cookie with Malcolm even if it brings out that side of her that we really haven't seen before.  A new relationship with a man that respects her without the baggage of history. 

Who is to say that Cookie did not engage in Gay sex while she was in prison..She was in prison for 17 years. She could have been gay for the stay. Lots of people engage in homosexual relationships while in prison, but go back to heterosexual relationships, when they are free. Cookie could be one of those people who did that out of necessity and loneliness; and that is why she is so comfortable with her gay son...

 

I am also happy that this show is making people have spirited discussions about homophobia, racism and mental illness. I think that is why this show has resonated with alot of people. People are talking and perhaps that will help people get a bit more understanding about what they do not know and what they fear....Taraji is awesome..I am so happy that she is getting a chance to shine..I remember people taking shots at her talent when she played Carter on person of interest. She has shown the world why she was once nominated for an Oscar..Person of interest's lost is our gain.. Brava Taraji!

Edited March 16, 2015 by Apprentice79

[angelita100]

I think Taraji would be all for that scenario Apprentice 79.

 

But even when she first got in prison and jamal came to see her - mama knew.  Despite the language she may use sometimes, her actions tell the story.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Cookie apparently knew Jamal was gay from his childhood. As for Cookie, one of her exchanges with Camilla had her talking about how Camilla would have made a fine prison bitch because of her long tongue. So I don't know if that was supposed to be Cookie just fronting or if it was an admission that while she spent 17 years in prison, she had some same-sex relationships. She had told Lucious that he was the only man she'd been with (prior to Malcolm) but not that he was the only one she'd been with. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[jhlipton]

Can we take the sociological discussion to a seperate thread?

 

Taking it to Small talk in absence of a separate thread.

[memememe76]

I forget. Did any of the sons visit Cookie? I could see Andre and certainly Hakeem not. In Hakeem's defence, he would be too young to go alone). Did Jamal never visit Cookie? I vaguely recall one flashback of a prison visit. So, maybe Cookie suspected Jamal was gay (even if Jamal didn't come out to her), which was confirmed when she first saw Michael. And if Jamal never visited Cookie, why the hell not? 

[Rae Spellman]

 

Did any of the sons visit Cookie? And if Jamal never visited Cookie, why the hell not?

 

I didn't see a general questions thread, so I'll answer here.

 

Hakeem mentioned Lucious keeping him away. If I remember correctly, Andre apologized for not visiting. Jamal may have visited her. Cookie found Jamal pretty quickly after she got out of jail. Jamal told her that he would have picked her up from jail if she would have called him. That suggests that he was in some sort regular contact with her.

 

But, if Jamal didn't visit, there could have been good reasons for that, too. Jamal was pretty young when Cookie went to jail. Cookie was in jail in Philadelphia. Lucious and the boys moved to New York. Can minors just show up for visits prisoners without an adult taking them? If Lucious, Aunt Carol, Bunkie, Vernon, or some other older relative didn't continue to take Jamal to see Cookie when he was a child, why would he start back visiting her when he was 18? Plus, children don't owe it to their parents to visit them in jail. Parents owe it to their children to stay out of jail. 

Edited March 18, 2015 by RaeSpellman

[ZaldamoWilder]

Ya'll in here clocking timelines like this is a Zapruder production.  The math is never gonna work out, ok? Can we just agree to be at peace about it and let em take us where they're gonna take us?  Ya'll studying curtains, artwork, haircuts and shit, can Empire live please?  LOL!!

 

Tonight was the first night where I can agree with the argument that the show moves a bit too fast for the plot to make sense.  Derek Luke "I failed my commander, I'm in love with you."  (blinks.)  Jamal already talking co parenting with the Aussie...then realizes it was Lucious' (I salute those who called that last month.) JHud getting WAY too touchy feely too fast.  Slow your roll, show.  (Though Jamal and Hakeem's lullaby was adorable.)

 

Finally what the hell happened to the notary?  She shows up, gets free food, stared at them during their fight, then left the room never to be seen again.  Wouldn't she have heard the gun shot and say "about the IPO, maybe we should hold off."

 

I do hope that the do close up some story lines next week.  I'm going to go nuts if they resolve very little.  But the amount of times I said "WHAT!" tonight made me realize that I'm going to miss this show when it goes on hiatus.

 

This here.  If not for rewatch, I'dve already missed a gang of eyecandyish stuff.   The brief scene with the notary made me giggle. All I could think was who caters an at home shareholder signing?  She was just so happy to see the buffet lol.

 

I'm going to admit that I have been spoiled by my recent series binge watch of Breaking Bad, so it has ruined my expectations for how any show should tie up its dangling participles.  I'll be cranky if they don't tidy some stuff up tonight.

 

Omg Lola is the most beautifullest  (shout out to Keith Murray) little girl ever. 

 

No you didn't!  ::chairdances::

 

I took it as him seeing what could potentially happen to him if Lucious finds out about him and Cookie.

 

I'm not sure what the headshake in the rearview was, but I believe Lucious became aware as of the moment just after Reg was shot.  With Malcolm ushering Cookie to safety with a "c'mon babe, I gotchu".   Which, part of his gain her trust plot or no, is a panty dropper in 5...4...3...

 

While Camilla might care about Hakeem , Lucious was right about her when he said money was the first thing that came to mind. Of course she'll be back when Hakeem hits the mother load.

 

I didn't understand this because I thought what he said to her was what all wealthy vile egomaniacs say to the person in their child's life of whom they disapprove:  what is it going to take to get you out of his life?  To draw the conclusion that he was talking about money, seemed perfectly natural to me, that's what I thought he meant except he intentionally did not use the words how much? And I thought that was semantic not entrapment.  So his - now, I ain't saying she a golddiger, but she ain't messing with no broke.... was a fail for me.  She might be, but (failing to buy her off) and muscling her out of town doesn't speak badly for her.

 

"Don't be sad." Lola to Andre (touching his face....)

"Don't be mad." Lola to Hakeem

"Don't be scared." Lola to Jamal.

 

This little bit completely psychologically read her uncle-brothers and gave them tailored advice. I love her. 

 

I didn't even catch this.  Best subliminal assessment ever!  Come get your chicken dinner. 

 

Man, that red and yellow dress Cookie was wearing when she kissed Malcolm!

Man, that riff from Suzanne Vega gets put behind Fallout Boy, and now Hakeem's song.

 

Ya'll are GOOD.  I heard it but didn't hear it.  Now I'm mindrewinding to why I was thinking, hey I like that beat. Lol.   See why you need to slow your roll Empire, there's an apparently perfectly fierce dress that I missed because I was too busy paying attention to Derek Luke's lips.  Dammit man, I hate going back to the dvr. 

 

I like Jennifer Hudson but for me her acting is hit or miss.  Which is okay says me, because she's not an actress, she's a singer, so as somebody who doesn't really do this, she's doing a better job at it than I could. 

 

Oooh, ok so whomever thinks the reason Luscious let the baby go is because Cookie isn't batting for him anymore, riddle me this - Olivia is still the child's biological mother.  Now that she doesn't have the threat of Reg, excluding murder, how did ya'll see her being talked out of her daughter's life in the event that he did want to keep her?

 

#LolaforPresident

Edited March 18, 2015 by ZaldamoWilder

[JBC344]

I forget. Did any of the sons visit Cookie? I could see Andre and certainly Hakeem not. In Hakeem's defence, he would be too young to go alone). Did Jamal never visit Cookie? I vaguely recall one flashback of a prison visit. So, maybe Cookie suspected Jamal was gay (even if Jamal didn't come out to her), which was confirmed when she first saw Michael. And if Jamal never visited Cookie, why the hell not? 

They have never said outright but the implication is that Jamal is the only one who kept in contact and had a relationship with Cookie while she was in prison.  We don't know if that was visits, letters, phone calls, or a combination of all of them.  I think Jamal most likely visited every once in a while and talked on the phone with her a lot, because while Cookie was excited to see him she wasn't shocked by his appearance as she was with Andre and Hakeem. 

[kpw801]

I didn't see a general questions thread, so I'll answer here.

 

Hakeem mentioned Lucious keeping him away. If I remember correctly, Andre apologized for not visiting. Jamal may have visited her. Cookie found Jamal pretty quickly after she got out of jail. Jamal told her that he would have picked her up from jail if she would have called him. That suggests that he was in some sort regular contact with her.

 

But, if Jamal didn't visit, there could have been good reasons for that, too. Jamal was pretty young when Cookie went to jail. Cookie was in jail in Philadelphia. Lucious and the boys moved to New York. Can minors just show up for visits prisoners without an adult taking them? If Lucious, Aunt Carol, Bunkie, Vernon, or some other older relative didn't continue to take Jamal to see Cookie when he was a child, why would he start back visiting her when he was 18? Plus, children don't owe it to their parents to visit them in jail. Parents owe it to their children to stay out of jail. 

I think Jamal visited her off and on simply because she was the only one who really "got him".  She said that to him when he was a little boy.  I am sure once he got old enough to go on his own he did.  Prisoners have a roster of people they can choose for institutions to allow to visit them so even though I'll bet she had Lucious (even after the divorce), Hakeem, Jamal and Andre as well as her sister on her list, Jamal was the one.  Also they have an aunt that I am sure had their contact information as well so she knew how to find Jamal.  She might have had her sister pick her up or something and then went to see Jamal.

[For Cereals]

Ya'll in here clocking timelines like this is a Zapruder production. The math is never gonna work out, ok? Can we just agree to be at peace about it and let em take us where they're gonna take us? Ya'll studying curtains, artwork, haircuts and shit, can Empire live please? LOL

#LolaforPresident

OMG. Funniest. Shit. Ever. I'm in tears. Edited April 7, 2015 by Forcereals

[darkestboy]

They went down the predictable route with Lola being Lucious but at least this storyline is somewhat resolved for now. Little disappointed and relieved in a way with it.

Seriously was reminded of Three Men And A Little Lady with Jamal and Hakeem singing/rapping to Lola. Anyone else get that?

An episode where you have Cookie, Camilla and Rhonda calling out Lucious is never going to be bad thing, is it? Nice one ladies.

I hope Andre doesn't cop off with Michelle but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

I liked Camilla more in this episode than in previous ones. I guess she really does care for Hakeem after all which is nice, 8/10