S03.E01: A Death In The Family

[peacheslatour]

 

BTW have we seen Romero laugh?

Once.  Norma even made some crack about it.

I liked everything about this ep except Caleb.  I don't give a crap about him.  Dylan with Emma?  That would be sweet.

What about this preview:

 

Dylan comes upon someone unseen; "Norman?"  Unseen person; "Norman is sleeping"  In a voice sounding like Norman trying to sound like a woman.

[Bec]

Vera's acting is really awesome, but that's not the reason I believe Norma.

 

My reason for thinking Norma is not lying is that she would have made up something without any incest or any rape in it at all if she's making up a story to cover her ass.

 

We all know how Norma doesn't like to be perceived as abnormal, and she thinks being raped would make her a laughing stock (remember what she said after Keith Summers raped her).

 

If she was covering her ass, she would deny there has ever been any incest if Caleb told anyone about that (which I don't think he would have, he was covering his ass before Dylan confronted him about that after he found out from Norma). She could have told her sons Caleb used to beat her up instead.

 

Norma did not want Dylan to find out Caleb is his father. She has been keeping that secret for years. Why would she later make up a lie about being raped by Caleb that would lead to Dylan finding out who his biological father is? That makes no sense. Dylan could have lived the rest of his life without finding out about the incest. Norma's secret would have been safe. Telling her sons about the incest-rape only makes sense as a hidden truth blurted out when she could no longer contain herself.

[rue721]

I believe Norma. A thirteen-year-old girl living in a violent, abusive household and facing pressure to engage in survival sex with her older brother is not someone who is capable of giving meaningful consent in any case imo.

 

Caleb creeped me out with the way he refused to take no for an answer from Dylan. I'm actually kind of worried for Dylan, that he'll get kicked out of the Bates family again, because if Norma finds out that he's associating with Caleb, their (new, good) relationship is toast. It might also be really pretty easy for Caleb to get Dylan under his thumb once Dylan doesn't have anyone else to turn to. That's how Caleb got Norma under his thumb when they were children, apparently -- isolated her (though their fucked up family probably did most of that for him) and then exploited her.

 

Someone said upthread (or maybe in Dylan's thread?) that Dylan is such a grown man (and not a boy). I agree for the most part. He can handle a grown man's responsibilities and he's smart. He's definitely the adult of the Massett/Bates family. But socially, he sometimes seems like such a kid to me.

 

All this also makes me wonder about Norma's first husband.

Edited March 12, 2015 by rue721

[Aquarius]

I thought it was a pretty good episode.  I loved when Norma was yelling at Norman after finding him peeking at the girl in Room 4.  It made me laugh when she said, "And it's - weird!"  Bwah!

 

I fear for Dylan (whom I love).  In fact, being completely unspoiled for anything about this episode, when I read the title on my Comcast guide my first thought was he was a goner.

 

Regarding what happened with Caleb.  I never completely believed Norma's version, and I agree with those above who think the show is setting up something different than what she said.  There was something so off about that scene when she told Norman about her brother.  Yes, she was going to meet Abernathy and thought he was going to kill her.  But I always thought was more important about the timing is that Norman was ready to leave on a grown-up date to the prom.  I got the sense that bothered her most of all, and her confession came mostly out of a desire to ruin Norman's night, and bring the focus back onto her.  And sully the mere notion of sex for Norman in a twisted kind of way.  It was just so strange. 

 

And then when she found out Dylan spoke to Caleb, she was so keenly interested to know what Caleb said.  I just don't know there . . .

 

Caleb is creepy, for sure, though.  I don't know how Dylan stands to even talk to him, knowing what he does, and I can't imagine how a person would come to terms with understanding that he is the product of incest.  The fact that all this is piling on Dylan and he is trying so hard to do the right things, as he sees them, while Norman gets more twisted, is a nice contrast.  It's one of the things I think is very well done about this show.

[Bec]

And I still say Norma could have made up a better story of awful unsexy times to ruin Norman's school dance if that's what she was going for. Why incest-rape (dear god why)?

 

Caleb is a manipulative liar, too. Which was shown this very episode when Dylan called bullshit on his van breaking down (convienently not too broken down to get to the cabin in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, right.) And also when Dylan was telling him to STFU and he was like "Gee, you don't have to be so angry" as if Caleb is the wronged party here and Dylan is being unreasonable.

 

I think Norma was so interested in what Caleb said to Dylan back in season 2 because she was trying to figure out what Caleb's angle was. Was he here for money (apparently he wasn't)? Why did he look her up? What did he want from her? These questions were never really answered last season, he just up and left town after Norman went all "mother" on him (granted, fleeing a "mothering" Norman is understandable, hee).

 

It's sinister enough even if Caleb wants nothing more than to be one big happy family with Norma and her sons (she said no, dude, take a hint). And now apparently he wants to play happy family with Dylan. Even if Caleb has no other ulterior motives, it's still like "gaaah, leave him alone! Poor Dylan doesn't need more dysfunctional family in his life."

 

maczero, you're not the only one, I'm the least interested in Norman out of all the characters. I think it could be because I already know way too much about his future. I guess I know way too much about Norma's future, also, but she was never this fleshed out as a character before, so I'm enjoying Norma despite knowing what happens.

[Sakura12]

From Caleb being unable to take no for an answer from Dylan, I don't find it hard to believe that he forced himself on Norma when she was saying no. 

[ganesh]

I don't find it hard to believe either, but the observation that either version might not be exactly what happened is pretty in line with the show. 

[Aquarius]

I don't find it hard to believe that a woman who has taken to spooning with her nearly adult son for comfort might have done some inappropriate things with a brother under similar circumstances.  And that's what I love about this show - it just keeps you guessing what exactly is going on.

[truthaboutluv]

A little late but finally saw the episode and loved it. As usual the pot dealing/trade thing is a bit meh but everything else was great. Freddie does such an amazing job and I wished the Emmys wouldn't ignore this show like it does. The creepy Norma/Norman relationship continues and I'm with others that the best thing Dylan can do for himself is leave that town and get far, far away from his whole family because they are all batshit crazy and fucked up. 

 

Best scenes of the episode was Norma yanking Norman out of the car. It was so great seeing Norma's crazy again - I've missed it. I also loved her snatching him when he was being a creepy peeping tom. I also am with others who didn't get the impression he was masturbating or that it was being hinted at. He looked to be in his creepy, catatonic state. I also am undecided about whether or not he killed the hooker. On one hand I can see it as a plotline/mystery for the season when Romero of course finds her body. But I can also see it being a fakeout and instead he kills her later in the season. 

 

But, we have seen Norma be a manipulative/lying woman time and time again.

 

 

While I think Norma has been manipulative and I place a lot of the blame on Norman's ending up where he does on her and her creepy need to control him and be unnaturally close to him, I haven't really found her to be this constant liar. I've been reading this argument since the first season of the show back at TWOP where many, similar to the Caleb situation, were convinced that Norma was probably lying about Norman's father and that she was the one who killed him.

 

But I just think all of what she says does align with what he know of these characters. We all know where Norman ends up, we all know that there is something unstable and mentally imbalanced in him so I don't buy that the writers were selling some misdirect and Norma lied about Norman's dad. I do think he killed his dad and Norma's only lies were in covering it up and making sure he never remembered he did it. Just like he was the one who killed Ms. Watson and Cody's dad, not Norma. 

 

And in saying that I honestly don't see any reason to think Norma is lying about Caleb and their history. We do know, per the backstory on the character that she got married very young and took off from her home and family very quickly, never talking to and having any relationship with any of them. It's why Caleb hadn't seen her in many years. We know that she did have a very complicated relationship with Dylan and he always felt like she hated him for some reason.

 

To me, that does align with someone who was sexually abused by her brother and as someone noted, I think it does add a layer of explanation to her very creepy and inappropriate relationship with Norman. Even though years later have made her realize Caleb's actions were wrong, she's clearly still very screwed up (Norma clearly needed therapy for years just like Norman did) and so is probably still messed up on what's normal and right behavior because Caleb probably started the abuse first telling her all they had was each other. And then it was an emotional and physical closeness first that turned into more. I'm also reminded of her reaction and murder of Keith Summers. That was rage in Norma when she stabbed him to death and I definitely think her own abuse history is what made snap like she did.

 

I am just not seeing or buying any reason to think the writers are suggesting some curveball about Norma's story about Caleb. I think the reason for Caleb's existence is to further explain and explore Norma's mindset and backstory. The show is a psychological drama/thriller showing how this twisted, somewhat unhealthy relationship between a mother and her son manifested into something very, very disturbing and ugly in him and showing how Norma became who she became helps. I find Caleb completely shifty and creepy so I for one don't for a second think Norma's version of things isn't true.

 

Am I the only one that finds Norman to be the least interesting member of the cast?  I just don't find the character likable.  And I still don't understand why so many women are drawn to him.

 

 

I actually find Norman to be the most interesting character on the show. I like Dylan and Romero but anything to do with the drug trade in the town bores the hell out of me and Norma and her crazy is hilarious but I find Norman creepier and more fascinating. As for so many women being drawn to him, I don't really see it because it's not like they're selling him as some stud - most of the situations have been people seeing him as just this nice guy they can talk to.

 

Bradley pretty much just used him for sex when her dad died but wasn't interested in him that way at all. Instead she was interested in Dylan. Ms. Watson was clearly a predator so she saw Norman as a perfect victim - lonely, awkward, socially ostracized. Cody was a bit troubled and I think she just liked that he was a nice guy who treated her nicely. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[rue721]

I don't find it hard to believe that a woman who has taken to spooning with her nearly adult son for comfort might have done some inappropriate things with a brother under similar circumstances.

 

I don't, either, and think they probably did have a very inappropriate relationship. But I don't think that means she even could give consent to having sex, as a child in that household, let alone that she's *lying* about being raped. It might be a matter of perception whether she was raped or what happened might not meet a legal definition of rape (though since they were having sex for *years,* I find it hard to believe that there wasn't a single instance that actually would meet the legal definition of rape regardless, but who knows), but I don't see any scenario -- including Caleb's -- in which she actually *could* have said no or in which she had a *meaningful choice* to say no to him. She was a child and she had no place else to turn. Which means imo that there's no scenario in which her saying that he raped her is something as extreme as a lie. I think it's valid for her to talk about sex in which she didn't have meaningful consent or that was survival sex/exploitative/coercive as rape. YMMV.

 

I think it's possible that she appeased him because she felt that her back was against the wall and was scared of what would happen if she didn't -- and that he thought that her appeasing him meant she really did love him. I think it's possible their feelings and relationship was complicated, because it sounds like the *only* love and protection that they got was from each other. I think it's possible that their relationship turned sexual because they needed to feel loved by somebody, but it became *both* more coercive and more transactional over time. But that Norma, the thirteen-year-old neglected and abused child was really a "seductress" or genuinely "thirsty" for her brother? No, I'm sorry, that's just ridiculous imo. She probably didn't get pregnant with Dylan until she was fifteen or so because she wasn't even getting her *period* regularly until she was fourteen or fifteen. The whole thing just sounds so incredibly fucked up.

 

And imo Caleb also did seem like a predator in this episode. He generally comes off as a dumbass to me, but Norma said that he was relentless, and he *does* seem like he's relentless. Which is dangerous in and of itself, regardless of what his angle really is right now. I can just see him tearing Dylan's world apart, so easily. Ruining Dylan's relationship with Norma (which would also ruin his relationship with Norman) just by associating with him, putting a wedge between Dylan and his "business associates" -- including the Sheriff (who seems to actually like Norma pretty well imo), refusing to move out of that cabin and taking *it* over...Basically, getting his fingerprints on all parts of Dylan's life, and ruining or driving him out of his own life in the process.

 

When Norma was saying to Norman that she thought she should listen to Dylan about what wasn't OK for her to do with Norman, because Dylan was a man and he would know that stuff, it made me wonder. Because Dylan doesn't really have a father, either. (At least as much as Norma didn't really have a mother). I mean, Dylan *is* a grown man, and he *does* know more about what's appropriate for Norman than Norma does, I think she's right to listen to him. But just like when Norman went after Caleb (as "Mother"), and Caleb just threw him down and was basically like, "fuck this," and it was clear that Norman was just completely outmatched against Caleb...I think that maybe Dylan is outmatched by Caleb, too. I don't mean physically, the way that Norman is (though maybe that, too, who knows). But something about how when Dylan came back to the cabin and found Caleb there, and Caleb had already gotten Gunner singing his praises about how he knew construction, and how Caleb was pretty much refusing to leave until Dylan gave in to him -- it made me think that Dylan was out of his depth with Caleb. Dylan's used to Norma, who is tough and manipulative and all that, but who is still more likely to be the victim of predators than a predator herself.

 

What Dylan needs is for Remo to come back, lol.

 

The creepy Norma/Norman relationship continues and I'm with others that the best thing Dylan can do for himself is leave that town and get far, far away from his whole family because they are all batshit crazy and fucked up.

 

Honestly, I think that Dylan prefers having his batshit crazy family to not having a family at all again. When things fall apart between him and Norma, which they inevitably will, I shudder to think what will happen, because imo that's going to be really hard on both of them. Norma will probably take it out on Norman and their relationship will probably become even more nuts, she'll probably become even more clingy and weird with him, and Idk what Dylan will do.

[Aquarius]

Make no mistake, in no way do I believe that however Caleb/Norma went down, that she seduced him.  What I envision is more of a "Flowers in the Attic" type progression, where boundaries are crossed inadvertently and due to extreme circumstances something inappropriate occurs.  (And I do think the original sex act in "Flowers in the Attic" was a rape - but what happened to precipitate it and afterward was very convoluted and co-dependent). 

 

I also don't think Norma is in any way trying to seduce or tempt Norman sexually now, I think she is looking for love and comfort, but in effect that is what she is doing.  That type of lover-like intimacy just breeds inappropriate feelings, especially in a disturbed young man starting his sexual prime.  I can just see the thing with Caleb going down pretty much the same way.  To me, Caleb seems more befuddled by why Norma ran off than not, and he also seems to me that he is biting back some details when he speaks to Dylan about it.  I wonder if that is an attempt to not make a bad situation worse for Dylan by implicating his mother in what happened . . . I don't know, I think Caleb is a tool for not leaving like Dylan asks him to, but it seems that is more about a fascination with Dylan (which to me is understandable given as he just found out about his existence) than any strong personality trait that won't accept no for an answer.  He's stayed away from Norma, for example.  And it seems to me there is something a little equivocal about Dylan's requests, too - he seems to be interested in Caleb no matter what he says.  That's what I am seeing, anyway.

[ganesh]

I think Dylan does have what it takes to shoot Caleb though. I can see Caleb ignoring Dylan's wanting him to leave and it getting so strained that he's like fuck this.

[tennisgurl]

The thing that most interests me about Norma/Caleb is how it pertains to Norma/Norman. If Norma and her brother had an inappropriately close bond, even one that eventually ended in him sexually abusing her (although its possible he didn't see it that way...but that's a whole other thing) that would explain a lot about her inappropriately close relationship with Norman. Maybe her and her brother did have a "us against a world" mentality at one point, and she tried to make a better version of that with Norman, only its one she can more easily control. 

 

Caleb is more interesting in seeing how he has shaped other characters, or how they react to them, than as a character himself. And not just because I believe Norma over him. 

[rue721]

To me, Caleb seems more befuddled by why Norma ran off than not, and he also seems to me that he is biting back some details when he speaks to Dylan about it.  I wonder if that is an attempt to not make a bad situation worse for Dylan by implicating his mother in what happened . . . I don't know, I think Caleb is a tool for not leaving like Dylan asks him to, but it seems that is more about a fascination with Dylan (which to me is understandable given as he just found out about his existence) than any strong personality trait that won't accept no for an answer.  He's stayed away from Norma, for example.  And it seems to me there is something a little equivocal about Dylan's requests, too - he seems to be interested in Caleb no matter what he says.  That's what I am seeing, anyway.

 

I see that in Caleb, too, but to me, it reads more like he's manipulating Dylan than that he's trying to protect Dylan and Norma's relationship.

 

Last season, they had the whole "trust game" over Dylan's life savings -- and he won Dylan back over by giving him his own money back. Which honestly. That seems like such a con man thing to do to me. It's also stuff like that that makes me think that, socially, Dylan is still kind of a kid, despite him being so guarded. Caleb is obviously after bigger game than $11.5K (or whatever it was that Dylan gave him). Caleb had heard that Norma had this motel and mansion in a drug-rich town and so he came right over, then he told Dylan flat out that he had his eyes on owning a motel. (When Dylan first came into town, he also asked Norma where the money for that motel came from, and she was also worried about why he was there -- but luckily for Norma, I guess, it turned out that Dylan had actually come into town because he was in trouble (had gone broke) and was turning to his mom for help, not because he saw her as a mark or was trying to screw her over). Anyway, Caleb got Dylan's savings in his pocket pretty easily, but then when it looked like keeping it would threaten his access to the bigger prize (the motel or an in with the drug business or whatever it is he wants to get), he handed it back over, and won Dylan back over again in the process, without it actually costing him a cent of his own.

 

Something that I like about Dylan, as kind of petty and silly as this sounds, is that he knows the value of a dollar. But I think that because he's used to scrambling for money, and is always focusing on how to get by, he's not realizing that Caleb (and the people that Romero was saying he now wouldn't "protect" Dylan's legal little artisan pot farm from) might be greedy and thinking on a larger scale. To Dylan, having $10K in his pocket is obviously a big deal -- but if someone's looking to get rich, $10K of some kid's money is just small potatoes. A few thousand here or there is worth giving up in order to keep a pipeline open (a "pipeline" like Caleb's connection to Dylan and his way into the drug business or into White Pine's business in general imo). 

 

Also, when all Caleb knew about was the motel, he was all about talking with Norma -- but now that he thinks that it's Dylan who has the access to the drug business and is his shot at getting access to real money, he suddenly doesn't even care if Norma knows he's there and is all about badgering Dylan and trying to get on his good side. That doesn't make me trust Caleb too much.

 

It also perked up my ears that whenever Dylan was getting fed up at Caleb, Caleb would pull the family card. First, he tried to use the money from the house sale to bait Dylan into talking to him, but Dylan wasn't biting. So then the next day, when Dylan was pissed and taking him back to the van, suddenly he knows Dylan's his son, etc etc etc. Suddenly he's all alone in the world and Norma's all the family he has left -- Dylan must know how that feels, right? That's how Dylan ended up in White Pine Bay, too. And again when Dylan was going to kick him off his property, Caleb starts talking about how Dylan's his son and that's what he cares about etc etc etc.

 

Lucky for Dylan, he's on Norma's good side right now, so he's not as vulnerable to that kind of talk as he was the first time Caleb came into town. But Caleb is going to blow up Dylan and Norma's relationship real fast just by being around. Dylan must know that, since he didn't tell Norma about Caleb telling him about their mother's death. You could see him thinking about it when she was telling him that his grandmother had died, but then he just said he was sorry and asked how she was feeling. Imo he didn't want to rock the boat because he knows that his relationship with Norma is fragile. But imo Caleb is going to bust that relationship to pieces, which will isolate Dylan and leave him relatively vulnerable, and then Caleb will pour on the charm about Dylan still being *his* son -- and imo Dylan's going to have trouble not eating that up. I think that Caleb sees Dylan's belief that Caleb's his father as an opportunity and he's exploiting it. And he's probably interested in Dylan, too, out of curiosity or because that's his nephew or whatever. But considering how he didn't give a shit about Norman at all (because Norman doesn't have anything he might want), and apparently didn't even care about Norma once she wasn't giving it up to him and didn't have anything else to give, I think that he's not there just for ~family's sake.~ YMMV.

[Garnett7]

I think one of the bigger questions of this show is -- How did Dylan end up normal in a family that is otherwise so eff'ed up?!

[Bec]

Probably helped that Norma saved the inappropriate closeness for Norman as soon as Norman was born, and Dylan was still a little kid then and was raised by the TV or something. Ah, TV is such a wonderful mother!

 

I definitely think there was inappropriate closeness between Caleb and Norma when they were growing up. That doesn't mean she wanted Caleb to stick his penis in her vagina. Yeesh. I know the counter-argument is "Norma lies a lot", but that still doesn't negate the reasoning that it makes no sense for her to tell lies that lead directly back to some of the biggest secrets she was trying to hide. Nobody was even close to finding out about the incest and she just blurted it all out!

 

Anyway, Norma isn't just a liar at all times, sometimes it's like she has no filters and she just blurts truth with no regard to how damaging some truths can be. Norma as written and acted in this series is such a complicated person. I love it. Hee.

 

This show doesn't really have a history of going back on the big reveals and saying "but wait, there's more! That last thing we told you? We totally lied to you, audience! Haha! This whole other thing is the truth!" And it's good they don't do this, because if they did I would never trust another one of their big reveals again.

 

Like truthaboutluv, I note the rage Norma had when she killed Keith Summers. I'm not sure if it's a deliberate choice to have that in there to link to a reveal about Norma's past that wouldn't be made until season 2. If so, these writers really don't mess around and they plan waaaay ahead of time.

[thuganomics85]

Way late to the party, due to being out of town.  About time to get my fix of my favorite up and coming psychopath and his nutty mom!

 

Right now, it sure does feel like they are full force at moving Norman from the more socially awkward, if a bit off kid, to a flat-out creep. All the stuff involving Norma, the escort, and even the way he treats Emma was disturbing on different levels.  And, now he's having vision of Miss Watson as well.  Yeah, I think this is the season when Norman is really going to turn into a page into much darker territory.  That said, I won't be surprise if him coming back in the escort's car will end up being a fake-out.  I think if he does kill her, they'll save it for a latter episode.

 

Speaking of the escort, I totally didn't know Tracy Spiridakos was going to be in this season.  More importantly, I didn't predict she'd actually be decent in it.  I mean, it's not a challenging role, but she emoted way more then she did in her entire run on Revolution. Was that show and it's directors/writers just that bad?  Or, has just improved since it's cancellation?  Both?

 

I really do wonder why Dylan just hasn't gotten the hell out of dodge at this point.  Nothing good is going to come out of being the normal person in this family.  And, now that Caleb is back (and Kenny Johnson is a regular), I don't see things improving for him.  Ru, Dylan, run!

 

Seriously, Emma.  I get you are lonely, but there has to be better options for you then Norman.  Even moving past the general creep factor, talking about dating you only to practically jump at the chance to ride off with a hooker, is a huge warning sign.  Dude has issues, to say the least.

 

Not sure what they have planned for Romero.  Hope he gets involved with the rest of the cast soon (other then Dylan.)

 

Bummed Remo is gone, but at it sounds like he bailed at the right time.

 

As usual, I really love how both Vera Farmiga and Freddie Highmore just embrace the creepiness.  The way they play off each other is great; even if it's disturbing as hell.

[Avaleigh]

And I still say Norma could have made up a better story of awful unsexy times to ruin Norman's school dance if that's what she was going for. Why incest-rape (dear god why)?

 

Caleb is a manipulative liar, too. Which was shown this very episode when Dylan called bullshit on his van breaking down (convienently not too broken down to get to the cabin in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, right.) And also when Dylan was telling him to STFU and he was like "Gee, you don't have to be so angry" as if Caleb is the wronged party here and Dylan is being unreasonable.

 

I think Norma was so interested in what Caleb said to Dylan back in season 2 because she was trying to figure out what Caleb's angle was. Was he here for money (apparently he wasn't)? Why did he look her up? What did he want from her? These questions were never really answered last season, he just up and left town after Norman went all "mother" on him (granted, fleeing a "mothering" Norman is understandable, hee).

 

It's sinister enough even if Caleb wants nothing more than to be one big happy family with Norma and her sons (she said no, dude, take a hint). And now apparently he wants to play happy family with Dylan. Even if Caleb has no other ulterior motives, it's still like "gaaah, leave him alone! Poor Dylan doesn't need more dysfunctional family in his life."

 

maczero, you're not the only one, I'm the least interested in Norman out of all the characters. I think it could be because I already know way too much about his future. I guess I know way too much about Norma's future, also, but she was never this fleshed out as a character before, so I'm enjoying Norma despite knowing what happens.

A lot of stuff I want to comment on. Ihave to get to work in a few minutes but wanted to address a few things.

Bec͵ I think the example you posted of Caleb being manipulative shows that he isn't very good at it and that he doesn't particularly come across as this practiced and inveterate liar. Ifhe's working a long con he doesn't seem like he's all that good at what he does. Also, why wouldn't he have taken advantage of seeing Norman in that condition?

Also, just to clarify again, I am not for a second arguing that Norma was some 13 year old seductress . (Anybody who has seen my posts in the Boardwalk Empire threads knows how I feel about a thirteen year old girl being a victim of rape. I especially felt tweaked when people would say that Gillian looking so childlike when it happened was a retcon and that the Commodore probably thought that she was older when he spotted her in the parade.)

I should probably also mention that I do believe that Norma was a victim of rape prior to Keith I'm just torn on whether or not her rapist was her father, Caleb or maybe even both.

I haven't seen the first two seasons since they aired so my memory is hazy but I'm thinking back to the scene where Norma is talking with that psychiatrist and she's telling the story about the iron and she's subconsciously rubbing the area where she was burned. I feel like there's more to the story even more than what she told Norman.

As for the show supposedly not having a history of going back on reveals I don't know if I agree with that or not. When I think about how stories have been handled on this show it seems like thingsaren't typically all that straightforward when I think of something like the death of Norman's father or Ms. Watson. There's been so much mystery wrt to Norma's family that I feel like there must be a reason for this.

As far as what this could add to the story, I think Norma having a history of a consensual incestuous relationship could end up adding complexity to not only the Norma/Norman story but the relationship between Dylan and Norma.

Regarding Prom Night--I agree with those who feel that Norma was trying to sabotage his night. As far as Norma being able to come up with a better story, I suppose, but I think the main thing was to get Norman feeling all protective over her and it worked like a charm. I also think it's significant that Norman told Emma what Norma told him about Caleb. Not sure how but I feel like this is going to come up later with Emma directly or indirectly stumbling upon the truth. I'lleeven go so far as to say that that I think Caleb is in the running along with lead candidate Romero for being the guy that Norman kills along with Norma.

[truthaboutluv]

When I think about how stories have been handled on this show it seems like thingsaren't typically all that straightforward when I think of something like the death of Norman's father or Ms. Watson.

 

 

Actually both have been fairly straight forward. The show started with Norman hearing Norma and his dad fighting, him looking like he was going into some trance, then when he wakes up later, he finds his dad dead and Norma telling him it was an accident. Most viewers immediately figured out he likely killed his dad while in some trance and didn't remember. And well that's what we've been shown and there's been no hinting at and no suggestion since that that version is not true. 

 

When Season 1 ended with him running in the rain, disheveled and confused after viewers last saw him at Ms. Watson who was acting pretty inappropriately with him, most figured that either he did kill her and didn't remember like his dad or he didn't but it would definitely look like he did since he'd been at her place. And most of Season 2 revolved around the mystery which ultimately culminated in his having killed her while in a catatonic state while she was inappropriately having sex with him. I haven't gotten the impression the writers mean for viewers to doubt or question any of that.

Edited March 13, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Sakura12]

Speaking of the escort, I totally didn't know Tracy Spiridakos was going to be in this season.  More importantly, I didn't predict she'd actually be decent in it.  I mean, it's not a challenging role, but she emoted way more then she did in her entire run on Revolution. Was that show and it's directors/writers just that bad?  Or, has just improved since it's cancellation?  Both?

 

I thought Tracey Spiridakos was good on Episodes and as a spoiled werewolf on Being Human US. I never watched Revolution, from what I hear it sounds like it wasn't a well thought out or written show.  

 

I think we are supposed to be left wondering if Norman killed the hooker or not. He has killed before but he's also let some girls go. It all depends on if he went into his black out stage. 

[Peanut6711]

Interesting that Dylan omitted the fact that he already knew about his grandmother's death when he had the conversation with Norman. He feels inclined to protect Caleb on some level.

 

Or more likely he just wasn’t in the mood for a freak-out from Norma, knowing she’d go off the rails when she heard Caleb was back in town.

 

Be interesting to see how they handle the ending for this series when it comes.  I wonder if the show runner had a set ending in mind -- other than Norma's murder -- or had several possibilities open for Emma and Dylan.

 

One of the show runners also produced LOST. He is known for proclaiming to have the whole series plotting out when really he’s full of it.  I think it’s pretty evident that the show is adjusting somewhat to viewer reaction and not strickly plotted out. Bradley in Season one was not a fan favorite, and quickly written out at the beginning of Season two. The drug war plot was not popular last season and is now possibly being fazed out with the burning of the fields and the appearance of the DEA.

[bookcat]

Someone in the writers' room has a psych 101 textbook. I don't mind, but lots of the behavior is actually textbook. People don't generally make to do lists with "manipulate people I love" and "emotionaly abuse them" on them. Unhealthy people engage in behaviors to try to make other people react a certain way. Norma loves Norman and wants him to stay with her in her version of a perfect family.  So she has made him dependant and covered up his mental illness and murders, so she can keep her do-over son and be happy. Its working for now.

 

Norman has learned to manipulate from the best. His conversation with Emma that leads her to homeschool is perfect. And it's not evil, he just wants to learn at home and spend time with his only friend. Emma being cut off from more people isn't a conscious goal of his, but it is a result.

 

Caleb thinking that forcing sex with his 13 year old sister wasn't rape is perfectly consistent with him raping her. There are convicted rapists who don't believe they did anything wrong because they didn't attack a stranger in an alley. I actually hope the show doesn't walk back Norma's story. It would be gross, and having a victim of sexual trauma, have moved on somewhat, but still have messed up boundaries, is much more interesting.

Edited March 13, 2015 by bookcat

[Peanut6711]

I have to wonder if clues to the truth of Norma/Caleb's relationship weren't already in the episode. In the truck w/Dylan, Caleb eluded to something along the lines of him and Norma turning to each other because it was the only place safe from their parents.  Later in the episode Norma asserts its okay for Norman to sleep in her bed again because it's for her comfort.  I honestly wouldn't be surprised if at some point we get a flashback of Norma crawling in Caleb's bed each night growing up--for safety and comfort from their parents and eventually things led somewhere.  Sort a like a "Flowers in the Attic" syndrome.  

[peacheslatour]

 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if at some point we get a flashback of Norma crawling in Caleb's bed each night growing up--for safety and comfort from their parents and eventually things led somewhere.  Sort a like a "Flowers in the Attic" syndrome.

I can see how this would happen (in fact, I've known a family where it did).  But didn't they also show a flashback of Caleb raping Norma and she was crying hysterically the whole time?  I don't see how he could think it was anything but rape.

[Bec]

I don't think it was a flashback, exactly, it was the image Norman had in his head from overhearing Norma argue with Dylan.

 

Dylan: You used me to get out of your house. You got knocked up by your brother and rather having an abortion, you used me to get your boyfriend to marry you. You brought me into this world using me, knowing what I was, not caring, just thinking about yourself.

Norma: It wasn't like that. You have to believe me. I was so scared, you have no idea. I had no one to protect me. I was a little girl. I was a kid. My father scared the crap out of of me. My mother was sedated all the time. And my brother would not leave me alone. I had to get away. I had no voice to tell him not to do it. I had no power to stop him! I wanted to stop him. God knows I wanted to stop him! I wanted to tell him to leave me alone! I wanted to tell him, I wanted to tell him to leave me alone. None of this is your fault. It's not your fault, but it's not my fault either. I was a child. I was way younger than your brother is now.

God, that scene was so heartbreaking. Vera and Max both knocked that one out of the park.

 

I get that you're not saying Norma was a 13-year-old seductress, Avaleigh. But what's the theory here? In between the abuse she enjoyed the incest? And then she's ashamed of the incest so she covered it up with "Caleb raped me"? See, that still doesn't make any sense to me. Because she could have kept quiet about the incest completely and nobody except her and Caleb would have known about it. It doesn't work as a cover at all.

 

Or, what's the other theory? It's a ploy to make her sons feel sorry for her? I can't see her keeping the deep dark secret of who Dylan's father is for over 20 years only to blow it for a ploy. It's one thing to tell Norman her brother raped her, but it's quite another to tell Dylan. With Dylan, she was going with her patented "I'm not going to tell you anything so stop asking and let's pretend nothing weird happened!" way of handling things until she blew up at him and had one of those freaky Norma Bates truth blurts (another example of a Norma Bates truth blurt - her "you're a dick" outburst at a city council meeting, ah, good times). She had to know Dylan wouldn't be inclined to accept what she told him and it would lead to no good for Dylan to know anyway. That was why she tried to keep it from him at first. Which is exactly why it's more likely than not to be the truth.

 

Rue721 does a way better job than me of detailing Caleb's manipulations. It goes way beyond just the "my van broke down so I drove to the middle of nowhere to see you" thing. It doesn't even matter Dylan saw right through that one, because Caleb than launched right into "okay you caught me in a lie, but don't be mad, it's only because I want so much to spend time with my favorite nephew-son." *pitiful stare*

 

Come to think of it, that makes him way better than Norma at manipulation, because usually when Dylan accuses her of being full of it, she gets flustered, freaks out on him, and reveals more than she really had to. Norma doesn't recover so smoothly when she is being called out. I haven't made my mind up yet if Caleb is being manipulative on purpose, though. Bookcat has a point that people don't necessarily engage in bad behaviors on purpose.

 

I'm hoping the Lost show runner learned a lesson from Lost and isn't yanking our chain now about having things planned out. It's possible they can change the Bradley stuff and pot stuff while leaving the broad strokes intact. This is a story where the ending is already kind of set in stone. So it can't be messed up too bad... probably.

 

I really do wonder why Dylan just hasn't gotten the hell out of dodge at this point

He can't look into the future like we can. Hee! As far as he knows, he can help his little brother by being around to look out for him and do things like tell Norma not to spoon with him in bed. I hope we get a lot more interactions between Dylan and Norman this season, there was so little of that last season. I go "aaaw... that's so sweet" everytime there's the twinkly piano of family love in the background music of a scene, even though I know this is all going to end in tragedy.

 

Anyway, on another tangent - after the whole sex slave saga in the first season, the second season was kind of oddly devoid of any prostitution at all. It was just drugs drugs drugs. Not sure if Norman killed the new guest already, but it's shaping up like we're going to delve into prostitution in White Pine Bay again through her. Could be interesting. Not gonna miss the drug war, but I am kind of disappointed Romero and Dylan won't be working together (or maybe they will work together after all, as soon as someone ruins Dylan's little artisanal pot farm and log cabin). I would like to see Romero butt heads with Caleb. Even better if Romero gets to bust Caleb's head on a bar like the "this town has been growing weed for fourty-aught yeeeeears!" guy.

[Avaleigh]

I don't think it was a flashback, exactly, it was the image Norman had in his head from overhearing Norma argue with Dylan.

 

 

 

God, that scene was so heartbreaking. Vera and Max both knocked that one out of the park.

 

I get that you're not saying Norma was a 13-year-old seductress, Avaleigh. But what's the theory here? In between the abuse she enjoyed the incest? And then she's ashamed of the incest so she covered it up with "Caleb raped me"? See, that still doesn't make any sense to me. Because she could have kept quiet about the incest completely and nobody except her and Caleb would have known about it. It doesn't work as a cover at all.

 

Or, what's the other theory? It's a ploy to make her sons feel sorry for her? I can't see her keeping the deep dark secret of who Dylan's father is for over 20 years only to blow it for a ploy. It's one thing to tell Norman her brother raped her, but it's quite another to tell Dylan. With Dylan, she was going with her patented "I'm not going to tell you anything so stop asking and let's pretend nothing weird happened!" way of handling things until she blew up at him and had one of those freaky Norma Bates truth blurts (another example of a Norma Bates truth blurt - her "you're a dick" outburst at a city council meeting, ah, good times). She had to know Dylan wouldn't be inclined to accept what she told him and it would lead to no good for Dylan to know anyway. That was why she tried to keep it from him at first. Which is exactly why it's more likely than not to be the truth.

 

Rue721 does a way better job than me of detailing Caleb's manipulations. It goes way beyond just the "my van broke down so I drove to the middle of nowhere to see you" thing. It doesn't even matter Dylan saw right through that one, because Caleb than launched right into "okay you caught me in a lie, but don't be mad, it's only because I want so much to spend time with my favorite nephew-son." *pitiful stare*

 

Come to think of it, that makes him way better than Norma at manipulation, because usually when Dylan accuses her of being full of it, she gets flustered, freaks out on him, and reveals more than she really had to. Norma doesn't recover so smoothly when she is being called out. I haven't made my mind up yet if Caleb is being manipulative on purpose, though. Bookcat has a point that people don't necessarily engage in bad behaviors on purpose.

 

I'm hoping the Lost show runner learned a lesson from Lost and isn't yanking our chain now about having things planned out. It's possible they can change the Bradley stuff and pot stuff while leaving the broad strokes intact. This is a story where the ending is already kind of set in stone. So it can't be messed up too bad... probably.

 

 

 

He can't look into the future like we can. Hee! As far as he knows, he can help his little brother by being around to look out for him and do things like tell Norma not to spoon with him in bed. I hope we get a lot more interactions between Dylan and Norman this season, there was so little of that last season. I go "aaaw... that's so sweet" everytime there's the twinkly piano of family love in the background music of a scene, even though I know this is all going to end in tragedy.

 

Anyway, on another tangent - after the whole sex slave saga in the first season, the second season was kind of oddly devoid of any prostitution at all. It was just drugs drugs drugs. Not sure if Norman killed the new guest already, but it's shaping up like we're going to delve into prostitution in White Pine Bay again through her. Could be interesting. Not gonna miss the drug war, but I am kind of disappointed Romero and Dylan won't be working together (or maybe they will work together after all, as soon as someone ruins Dylan's little artisanal pot farm and log cabin). I would like to see Romero butt heads with Caleb. Even better if Romero gets to bust Caleb's head on a bar like the "this town has been growing weed for fourty-aught yeeeeears!" guy.

 

I basically agree with all of your post, Bec and if this weren't a TV show I wouldn't really have any doubts about whether or not there's something more to the story.

 

I guess for me it's like I said earlier. The only thing that's really giving me pause about any of this is that it seems like the writers are still trying to make what happened between them mysterious in some way and I wonder why they would do that unless there is more to the story. Furthermore it seems like the Caleb story could have been wrapped up last season. We got the incest reveal early on and I feel like the reason for this *might* be because the "real" story is even more bizarre. Basically I think I'm looking for a possible alternative explanation to the one that Norma gave us simply because of a few things that seemed odd to me. I fully acknowledge that it might very well be as straightforward as what Norma said and that it isn't any more complex than that.

 

Actually both have been fairly straight forward. The show started with Norman hearing Norma and his dad fighting, him looking like he was going into some trance, then when he wakes up later, he finds his dad dead and Norma telling him it was an accident. Most viewers immediately figured out he likely killed his dad while in some trance and didn't remember. And well that's what we've been shown and there's been no hinting at and no suggestion since that that version is not true.

See, I remember there being a lot of debate about both of these murders. In fact over at TWoP, it wasn't until I started reading threads over there that I even considered the possibility that Norman didn't kill Ms. Watson. I totally thought he did and then there was all of this debate because we didn't see it happen. I thought I recalled it being somewhat similar regarding Norman's father in that there was some doubt as to whether or not it was Norman or Norma because it wasn't shown but perhaps I'm misremembering? 

[truthaboutluv]

Yes, there were debates because like I previously noted there were always people determined to argue that nothing was what it seemed and that Norma was lying about everything. Ultimately there are always viewers who believe there's something more, some hidden mystery but sometimes something is as it seems. I just personally don't think there has been so many reasons or suggestions to question what's been told and actually shown. 

 

Why is Caleb still around, because he's a shifty character and he brings drama to Norma and by that token Norman and Dylan. As for it still seeming like the writers are being mysterious about what happened, I don't see that. I think what we're seeing is exactly what someone else noted that Caleb is either in deep,deep denial where he really believed whatever happened between him and Norma really was consensual so he's truly confused as to why she hates him so much or he's a manipulative douchebag who sexually abused his sister and is working some con on his son/nephew. What exactly he wants, well that might be the mystery as to why he's still around. Something that will later be revealed for why exactly he's hanging around town. 

[Bec]

Yeah, I want to find out what Caleb is here for! That one is a shifty character, he is! And his story felt unfinished last season 'cause he just left and nobody seemed to think that was weird. None of them even knew Caleb left town since Norman was blacked-out "mothering" when he "confronted" Caleb. But nobody worried about Caleb for the rest of the season because everything else went batshit crazy in White Pine Bay after that, what with Norma getting on city council and Norman pushing a dude down some stairs and Dylan getting caught in the middle of the lamest drug war ever.

 

How long is this supposed to be after Norman's polygraph test (of insanity) anyway? Has it been months? A year? I take it some time has passed since the DEA had time to make 43 arrests and burn 27 marijuana fields. And Dylan had time to go house hunting and find himself a cabin and some farmland.

 

Speaking of the DEA burning the marijuana, all that burning must have gotten the whole town high.

 

Oh, and let's not focus only on the spooning and voyeurism as the creepiest parts of the episode, let's give an honorable mention to Norma holding Norman after he ran home from school. She was practically smushing his head into her bosom as if she wanted to breastfeed him. Such a "blink and you'll miss it" moment, but it had me in stitches.

 

Also that rain bonnet... thing Norma was wearing when she pulled Norman away from the guest's window. That somehow made the "you can't do that! It's not normal!" scene even more hilarious.

[Fable]

Also that rain bonnet... thing Norma was wearing when she pulled Norman away from the guest's window. That somehow made the "you can't do that! It's not normal!" scene even more hilarious.

 

It's things like this that I love about this show.  It's twisted and creepy, yet still manages to be endearing and humorous. 

[DittyDotDot]

Late as usual. Man, Norman is really upping his creep factor--and I love it! This episode had me wondering if Norma's mother's mental illness is part of why she's been so reluctant to get Norman help. She says her mother was sedated and on a lot of medication and only knew her to be happy once in her life. I've always believed, in her own whack-a-do way, she thinks she's protecting Norman--even if she's really just making things worse.

 

Anyway, not too keen on the drug plot still and not sure how I feel about Caleb hanging around now--I'll wait to judge depending on where it leads. Poor Emma, that girl just never catches a break. Or maybe she did...;)

 

I totally believe Norma is telling the truth about the incest and rape from her perspective. I don't think any 13-year-old can reasonably give consent in this situation anyway, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn not everything is the way Norma remembers it either. She was 13 and traumatized. I also believe Caleb is telling the truth, from his perspective. He also was young and traumatized. I definitely see Caleb as the more shifty personality and trust him less, but I think it was a messed up situation all around. 

 

I'm on the Norman didn't kill the hooker train...for now anyway. I'm still not convinced he killed Miss Watson either.

[Mabinogia]

his episode had me wondering if Norma's mother's mental illness is part of why she's been so reluctant to get Norman help. She says her mother was sedated and on a lot of medication and only knew her to be happy once in her life. I've always believed, in her own whack-a-do way, she thinks she's protecting Norman--even if she's really just making things worse.

 

 

Yes, that is my impression too. I love how we get little bits of information that start to make sense. Norman being mentally ill isn't just a one off thing, it's hereditary and Norma's pigheaded unwillingness to look this fact in the face is because she saw what it did to her mother, the emptiness and sedation. She's not trying to just keep him for herself, I think she does really believe she's protecting him from what happened with her mother.

 

This show is a beautiful character study of some very, very damaged people. I love it. I love how there are all these little puzzle pieces that are slowly coming together to build the puzzle that is Norman Bates. When I first heard about this show, about what they were doing, going back to young Norman, I wasn't sure they could do the character and the movie justice, but damn have they ever exceeded my expectations.

 

Sure, there is filler. The sex slave thing, the whole drug town storyline (but I forgive both of those storylines because without them kick ass Romero wouldn't have much to do), but I can deal with that filler if it means getting to see the deconstruction of the Bates family. It is fascinating. I watch a lot of tv and the drug storyline is better filler than some I've seen. Plus, Dylan!

 

Anyway, I'm so glad my show is back. I am in love with these characters so much.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Mabinogia

[DittyDotDot]

Yes, that is my impression too. I love how we get little bits of information that start to make sense. Norman being mentally ill isn't just a one off thing, it's hereditary and Norma's pigheaded unwillingness to look this fact in the face is because she saw what it did to her mother, the emptiness and sedation. She's not trying to just keep him for herself, I think she does really believe she's protecting him from what happened with her mother.

 

I was totally indifferent to the spooning and such (it's not like that was new information or anything) but the knowledge about Norma's mother really peaked my interest. When Dylan asked what was wrong with her and Norma said she didn't know, all I could think was, "don't you think you should try to find out?" I mean, her son is obviously mentally ill, maybe there's something to be learned about mommy that could be of use. But, of course Norma wouldn't think one has anything to do with the other, instead she just files it under, "mental heath folks are bad and cause more harm than good." She's such a little girl trying to be a grown up sometimes. Vera has been masterful with the nuances of this very complicated person.

[ganesh]

I'm on the Norman didn't kill the hooker train...for now anyway. I'm still not convinced he killed Miss Watson either.

 

I don't either. If TPTBs intended to show us how 'blackout Norman' sees things and he did in fact kill Watson, then they overdid it because the scene was terribly executed from that pov. It still looked to me that it was a false memory.

 

I don't think he killed the escort just because I've watched a lot of tv in my life and this seems like a classic fake out. Not *every* sexy woman is going to be killed. Some have to get away.

[Mabinogia]

She's such a little girl trying to be a grown up sometimes

 

 

That is such a great description of Norma. She does seem so childlike sometimes, especially her inappropriate emotional outbursts, aka, tantrums. She is fascinating to me and Vera F. brings such a vulnerability to her that it is impossible to truly hate her despite the horrible influence she's having on Norman because it just seems so unintentional. She doesn't want him to want her sexually, that's not what spooning is about to her, and now that we know about her relationship with her brother, the "us against the world" thing that turned sexual, I think this is the only way she knows how to interact. She was emotionally stunted very young and hasn't grown up but has to navigate the world as a grown up. It's tragic, really. Norma Bates is one of the most interesting, complex characters I've ever come across. I love her, and am impressed with what the show has done with her given how little they had to go on.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Mabinogia

[truthaboutluv]

YMMV but in my opinion, Norman's seeing a vision of Norma, who confesses to killing Ms. Watson, while he was taking the polygraph, confirmed to me that he did kill her. I felt that was the writers' way of showing that that was his first official murder as "mother". Yes he was in a catatonic state when he killed his dad but that was just a rage blackout, he hadn't fully mentally broken apart.

 

It was similar to when he killed Cody's dad although that was just an accident and he wasn't fully in a catatonic state when it happened so he immediately remembered what he did. What I got from last season's finale is that while we the viewers know Norman killed Ms. Watson, I'm not sure he really does himself. While he was buried by the kidnappers, he started having flashes from the night and started questioning to himself what happened. But his full on psychological split has started so in his Norman side, he probably believes it was either Norma as he saw in the vision or he doesn't remember that at all. And so once again he's clueless. 

 

I guess just as with Caleb and the abuse, while I can understand wanting to poke holes in the show and look for a deeper mystery, I just don't see what purpose having someone else be guilty of Ms. Watson's murder would serve. The fact of the matter is we all know where Norman's story is going, we all know how it ends. I get the argument of not wanting to see him full on batshit crazy just yet but I don't think they're doing that. I may change my opinion when we know for sure whether or not he killed the hooker. But her aside, Norman has only killed his dad, who was an abuser and who was violently beating up Norma, he accidentally killed Cody's dad, another violent abusive drunk and Ms. Watson, who was by no means a saint. The woman was a sexual predator who was basically sexually assaulting Norman when he killed her. 

 

So I can completely buy that Norman, a boy we've seen who clearly has some deep seated issues about sex, sexuality, all tied to his weird, creepy, co-dependent relationship with his mother and likely some Madonna/Whore complex, snapped when he was essentially being sexually violated by a much older woman. Makes perfect sense to me. 

Edited March 15, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[DittyDotDot]

That is such a great description of Norma. She does seem so childlike sometimes, especially her inappropriate emotional outbursts, aka, tantrums. She is fascinating to me and Vera F. brings such a vulnerability to her that it is impossible to truly hate her despite the horrible influence she's having on Norman because it just seems so unintentional. She doesn't want him to want her sexually, that's not what spooning is about to her, and now that we know about her relationship with her brother, the "us against the world" thing that turned sexual, I think this is the only way she knows how to interact. She was emotionally stunted very young and hasn't grown up but has to navigate the world as a grown up. It's tragic, really. Norma Bates is one of the most interesting, complex characters I've ever come across. I love her, and am impressed with what the show has done with her given how little they had to go on.

 

I've long believed Norma is emotionally stunted and when the incest came out last season, it popped it all into focus for me. Emotionally, she's still that 13-year-old girl who was molested by her brother, IMO. She makes irrational decisions and doesn't have proper boundaries like most teenage girls. I've been so fascinated with what Vera has done with her.

 

 

I don't either. If TPTBs intended to show us how 'blackout Norman' sees things and he did in fact kill Watson, then they overdid it because the scene was terribly executed from that pov. It still looked to me that it was a false memory.

 

I don't think he killed the escort just because I've watched a lot of tv in my life and this seems like a classic fake out. Not *every* sexy woman is going to be killed. Some have to get away.

 

Yeah, that vision didn't feel like it was true to me either. It was more like teenage-boy fantasy, IMO, than actual truth. It was overly stylized and just felt weird to me. However, I know Norman has it in him to have done it, so I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out he did. I'm just not convinced he did, as of yet, though. As to the hooker, it felt like straight-up McGuffin to me. But maybe that's exactly what they were going for and I will be proved wrong on both counts in the end.

[Mabinogia]

So if Norman didn't kill Miss Watson who did? They have his DNA in her so they had sex. That wasn't a fantasy, it happened. So he just fantasized the killing part?

 

I found the Bradley sex scene way more stylized and that she ended up confirming really happened, so I take the stylization as more a reflection of his attitude toward sex than that it was a false memory. Besides, if he didn't do it that diminishes that amazing scene where "Mother" appears and takes the blame for him. That is the moment. That was the whole reason Miss Watson had to be killed, so we could see that Norman has cracked into two personalities and that "Mother" is taking the blame for killing so that Norman can remain innocent. It was brilliant and showed how Norman is basically lying to himself and therefore able to fake out the lie detector.

 

This show is much better than all those shows who rely on a shocking twist. I have faith it won't retcon that moment into Norman knowing his mother did it. That just doesn't make sense with everything we've seen.

 

The hooker, I'm on the fence about. They didn't show her dead, so that means she could show up again. I just don't know where they are going with that story and can see potential either way.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Mabinogia

[DittyDotDot]

So if Norman didn't kill Miss Watson who did? They have his DNA in her so they had sex. That wasn't a fantasy, it happened. So he just fantasized the killing part?

 

I found the Bradley sex scene way more stylized and that she ended up confirming really happened, so I take the stylization as more a reflection of his attitude toward sex than that it was a false memory. Besides, if he didn't do it that diminishes that amazing scene where "Mother" appears and takes the blame for him. That is the moment. That was the whole reason Miss Watson had to be killed, so we could see that Norman has cracked into two personalities and that "Mother" is taking the blame for killing so that Norman can remain innocent. It was brilliant and showed how Norman is basically lying to himself and therefore able to fake out the lie detector.

 

I have no idea who would've killed her and to tell you the truth I don't really care. Personally, I think it's more interesting to think Norman had convinced himself he had killed her, so Mother comes out and passes the lie detector test for him. The important part to me is the Norma personality rising to the surface for the first time, not the actual murder, IMO. However, I find the idea of Norman thinking he's a killer and becoming what he becomes based on false memories far more compelling. But, I admit it freely; I'm weird...and I'm okay with that.

 

Like I said, it's not that I don't think Norman could do it, but I just didn't feel like that memory itself felt real to me. Miles vary of course. And, I'm completely open to the possibility that I'm wrong.

[rue721]

When Dylan asked what was wrong with her and Norma said she didn't know, all I could think was, "don't you think you should try to find out?" I mean, her son is obviously mentally ill, maybe there's something to be learned about mommy that could be of use.

 

Really doubt there's anything useful to find out. There's maybe a pile of papers in her mother's old house with a string of (useless) diagnoses listed on them. But diagnosing illnesses like that isn't cut and dried. They might never have even come to a conclusion with her mother, just tried treatments on her looking for one that at least sort of worked.

 

When Norma said "sedated all the time," I immediately thought of Haldol. If Norman's illness is "the family curse," then it would make sense that his grandmother was on an antipsychotic. But in that case, what happened with Norma's mother is actually a best-case scenario. She was functional enough to have a husband and family and live on her own, she apparently never became psychotic while Norma lived with her (since Norma was talking about how it was "never discussed" -- and if someone becomes psychotic, "discussion" isn't that relevant, tbh. YMMV.), and she apparently lived to a fairly old age without renal failure or any other obvious complications from the illness/medication. That's actually exceptional, ime. I have no problem believing that Norma would be in denial that that would maybe be the best case scenario for her beloved son, too. Or that she'd want to keep him close to her for the time that he has left as "himself." (No offense intended to anyone who struggles with similar illness. YMMV).

 

I think that we haven't seen Norman murder anybody in a realistic way onscreen mostly so we can sympathize with Norma's (and Norman's) perspective, in which Norman *isn't* (or isn't yet) a psycho.

[ganesh]

I have no idea who would've killed her and to tell you the truth I don't really care. Personally, I think it's more interesting to think Norman had convinced himself he had killed her, so Mother comes out and passes the lie detector test for him.

 

I seemed to remember at the time that there were others who had motive. I think Norman killing her is just too early for the 'pyscho' development. Additionally, he 'remembered' while he was locked in thing outside, so it's kind of triggered imo.

 

I wouldn't call BS on it if the show confirmed that he did kill her, but I don't see the current evidence as overly compelling; i.e., there is plenty of reasonable doubt. 

[JenE4]

This show. The writing and acting is just so damn good that I'm still completely drawn into Norman and Norma at one moment and forget about how scary they are until they do something totally creepy the next moment. I mean, I get that's the point of this show, but it's a difficult dynamic to sustain. When Norman asked Emma to date and he looked so earnest and she looked so happy, I was happy for them, and it took me a few seconds to remember that this likely isn't going to end well for Emma, and in my head I was saying, "No, Emma! Noooooooo!" I see some posters think that Emma is safe because Norman doesn't think of her sexually, but isn't that most likely to happen once they're dating?

[DittyDotDot]

Really doubt there's anything useful to find out. There's maybe a pile of papers in her mother's old house with a string of (useless) diagnoses listed on them. But diagnosing illnesses like that isn't cut and dried. They might never have even come to a conclusion with her mother, just tried treatments on her looking for one that at least sort of worked.

 

My point was more that most adult parents would still look into it in the hopes they might find something to help their child. But Norma's not really an adult or the typical parent, so she of course dismisses it out of hand as something that has nothing to do with her or Norman.

 

I'm suspecting this will be the point of Caleb hanging around, in the end. Norma took off when she was 16 and didn't keep in touch, so she never learned anything about her mom. It sounds like Caleb stuck around longer and maybe was in touch with her parents, so maybe he has some knowledge of what was really wrong with Grandma? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[hoodooznoodooz]

Norma's very blonde, very curly hair is distracting me.

Why does Dylan seem almost a decade younger in his first scene?