The Grass is Always Greener on the Knoll

[areca]

OK. What the hell with that Nick guy? He's been getting a one-man lovefest, bizarre two minute montages in the middle of the show, extra time to talk to the judges and Ryan, etc since Hollywood week. And he was the last announced in the lineup of 'Here's your top 24' I think. IDGI. So I'm calling shenanigans!

Edited March 5, 2015 by areca

[Foghorn Leghorn]

And they went on and on about his SMILE last night??

[rereader2]

It is a very nice smile!

[ishcabibble]

I've noticed the Knoll has not gotten nearly as much activity in the last couple of seasons as it used to. I just can't figure out if it's because TPTB have simply given up and are just letting what happens happen, or if they've truly become so good at manipulating the show that it's not as obvious as it used to be.

Hmmm...

[lyric]

I've noticed the Knoll has not gotten nearly as much activity in the last couple of seasons as it used to. I just can't figure out if it's because TPTB have simply given up and are just letting what happens happen, or if they've truly become so good at manipulating the show that it's not as obvious as it used to be.

Hmmm...

Personally, I just don't care anymore.  The conspiracy theories were big fun, once upon a time, but the bloom fell all the way off this rose for me.  This show used to be my favorite guilty pleasure, but now it's a chore to watch, when I even think to watch it.   It's just so bad now, and the talent on The Voice just makes this seem even more Mickey Mouse - and I'm not a gung ho Voice fan either.  These Idol yahoos cannot even sing in tune anymore - even the judges seem to be phoning it in...kind of wish the show had gone out while it was still on top.

[yourpointis]

Personally, I just don't care anymore.  The conspiracy theories were big fun, once upon a time, but the bloom fell all the way off this rose for me.  This show used to be my favorite guilty pleasure, but now it's a chore to watch, when I even think to watch it.   It's just so bad now, and the talent on The Voice just makes this seem even more Mickey Mouse - and I'm not a gung ho Voice fan either.  These Idol yahoos cannot even sing in tune anymore - even the judges seem to be phoning it in...kind of wish the show had gone out while it was still on top.

 

I wish I could give this post a million likes. 

[BogoGog24]

I couldn't help but wonder several times while watching last night and the night before if the judges are going for a "reverse psychology" thing, where if they give one contestant too much praise, it will backfire and people won't vote for them, and if they give another contestant too much criticism, that will also backfire and the audience will vote more. So they praise the contestants that were bad and give nitpicky criticisms to those that were mostly good. That's the only explanation I can think for why they praised some contestants who were awful or average at best and then had a bone to pick with those that were mostly pretty good.

[rereader2]

And here I was thinking that they (meaning Harry and Keith, who knows with JLo) were only bothering to give real, helpful advice to the singers they felt were good enough to bother with. The rest just get "yes, good dog, next."

[ShutUpFlanders]

Up until this week, the word was that the Top 16 would cut two from each gender based on votes and result in a Top 12, like seasons past. According to TVLine, America votes for the Top 10 and the judges select 2 Wildcard contenders (one male, one female). It's not 100% clear whether the select contestants who were eliminated in the Top 24 are eligible as Wildcards.

 

Maybe TPTB didn't like seeing the slaughter of teenagers (Trevor, Riley, Lovey, Shannon, Shi, Katherine) last week and are now worried that won't be many youngins if they don't intervene? This cast has been on the younger side this year, particularly the women's side.

[yourpointis]

Up until this week, the word was that the Top 16 would cut two from each gender based on votes and result in a Top 12, like seasons past. According to TVLine, America votes for the Top 10 and the judges select 2 Wildcard contenders (one male, one female). It's not 100% clear whether the select contestants who were eliminated in the Top 24 are eligible as Wildcards.

 

Maybe TPTB didn't like seeing the slaughter of teenagers (Trevor, Riley, Lovey, Shannon, Shi, Katherine) last week and are now worried that won't be many youngins if they don't intervene? This cast has been on the younger side this year, particularly the women's side.

 

I posted a link in the Spoilers thread that only the people in the top 16 are eligible for the wildcard round. The first 8 eliminated contestants will not be selected and that is a shame because the only ones I'm interested in coming back into the competition are in that top 8.

[Amy Beth]

Holy knolls!

I don't believe for one minute that Jax got a hold of that dress on her own.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

A) I hate Jax and that vote-whoring with the dress just amplified that hate with the power of a thousand nuns (copyright TWOP). 

 

B) I wonder ... if the contestants had some prior inkling of who was going home well before this week's episodes? I wonder because of a few Tweets I read during the week ... after Top 12 performed but well before Top 8 show aired. Katherine cryptically wrote on March 3 "When lemonade keeps turning into lemons" and Savion (sniff sob) posted something that was apparently deleted on February 27 along the lines of feeling pressured to change his style and be someone he wasn't (the Tweet is no longer in his feed but some of the responses are). His Tweets are usually very upbeat so that caught my eye ... and Katherine's I had no clue what she meant. 

 

But in both cases I wonder if both knew they hadn't made it through?

[BogoGog24]

They possibly read the blogs and saw the polls and comments. Neither of their performances was very well received.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

True ... good point ... but I think in most cases people liked THEM and would have liked more from the performances (in many cases Savion was bashed for song choice, though apparently that is one of his "go to" songs in real life, while people liked Katherine but thought she seemed nervous and forgettable). 

 

I wonder if they had gotten negative feedback from "you don't know me but I discovered Taylor Swift" ... hmmmm. Maybe that's why Katherine didn't get good feedback from him. "I discovered Taylor Swift and you're no Taylor Swift (thank Dog she isn't ... I like her voice and style MUCH more than TayTay).

 

The interesting thing with Savion is how many people seem to have said in their critiques of him things along the lines of how he wasn't singing songs that were "his style" which I found kind of interesting and ironic ... that song is VERY MUCH his style. He's an indie singer-songwriter BGWG. 

 

He was planning on doing "What's Going On" this week ... I really would have liked to have heard that. Maybe he'll put up a YouTube of it ... 

 

ETA two days later but to avoid the dreaded double post ... re: a lively convo on the Top 8 girls thread about how Jax ended up with The Dress ...

 

IIRC contestants do not get wardrobe allowances until Top 12.  BUT ...

 

... but I have a feeling that the advising and mentoring etc. has already begun ... I think that would explain some of the oblique Twitter references by some contestants, the style of their social media presence, etc. ... and perhaps -- especially for the underage contestants -- some not-so-subtle help in the styling "find who you are" departments.

 

 

And I am also guessing, if that's the case, that they may be giving more advice to some semifinalists (i.e., the ones they'd like to have there for the long/longer haul) and less to others.

SOMEONE obviously thought The Dress would be a great idea ... now, thinking in terms of their potential "chosen ones" that would be likely candidates for it, some would obviously NOT have been good fits (Joey and Tyanna come to mind immediately). So who has the attention-whoring personality, who would appeal to the Twitter generation (for the most part, the only people who would immediately recognize The Dress), etc.?

And since they already knew who the Top 8 were, let's take out Shi, Shannon, Katherine and Lovey from the equation.

So: I'd say The Dress candidates would have been Jax, Loren, Maddie. Maybe Adanna.

 

They WOULD NOT have been Joey, Tyanna, Alexis.

And Sarina-Joi, well, we've seen her for 5 minutes total. I have no idea what her personality is like. And in fact I had to scroll up through this thread to even remember who I was forgetting, which is sad given that she is so good.

 

 

My gut says they'd want to use The Dress on the semifinalist they wanted to get through but thought might be on the bubble and needed something to sway the Twitter Universe in their direction. OTOH, I have felt Jax has been TCO since Day One (IIRC, wasn't she the first featured eventual finalist shown auditioning during the Hollywood Week episodes? And hasn't there often been a correlation between first one featured and contestant who has gone VERY far in the mix?)

I would have thought Loren would be a good candidate for The Dress but I guess not. Hey, maybe ALL 12 of them came in with The Dress and they had to settle a cat fight behind the scenes. It's bad enough if two sing the same song (though it's happened occasionally) but to have multiple people wearing The Dress? No, that was something that I think was more than just a "Jax decided to buy the dress and it was no big thang, she just wanted it and wore it, end of story. Why is everyone making a big deal about it?" thing.

Edited March 8, 2015 by PamelaMaeSnap

[BogoGog24]

IMO I could see Jax or maybe one/some of the other contestants joking about wearing it and then maybe the stylists/producers wanted to run with it. If there's anyone that would do a gimmick like that, it would be Jax more than the others.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

By the way, re: my earlier comment about the contestants already knowing the results going into the Top 8 Perform? Watched the ending again and when the final 5 girls are sitting on stage waiting, Alexis is smiling and the other five look decidedly unhappy. I am absolutely convinced they know the results somehow. Maybe they know well ahead of time, maybe they find out at dress rehearsal, or maybe they figure it out by the configuration of the band for that last number, but if you go back and look, those five all knew before Ryan announced it.

[BogoGog24]

Shi and Shannon had terrible performances so it probably wasn't a surprise to them. And Lovey and Katherine were rough. Of course they weren't going to look happy about it, whether they knew beforehand or not. They probably just had a feeling they'd go because they all gave bad performances.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

Well, if that's the case I bet Alexis will not be smiling tomorrow night LOL!

 

I am also curious to see how they handle wild cards ... if it's really pulling wild card singers ONLY from those that get eliminated this week (out of the Top 16), that means they only have SIX to choose from to start with so, really, where's the drama in that? IMHO they lost a few better contenders LAST week than they're likely to lose this week ...

 

I know the spoilers say that only the eliminated contestants from THIS week's cut will sing for a wild card spot but my knollish (but jaunty) tin foil cap thinks (hopes?) that they're disseminating misinfo on the spoilers (especially since they haven't announced ANYTHING yet) so they can have at least ONE surprise up their sleeve, and we might see at least a few of the first eight cut come back to sing for their supper (again, this could be my wishful thinking of getting back Savion and Katherine). 

 

But TPTB know exactly what spoilers are out there ... would be interesting to see them spoil the spoilers.

[ari333]

Where are all my knoll=ee peeps? I love the knoll!

Tristan was seemingly shoved down our throats yet she wasn't one of the golden four on the 2016.02.24. show . yet again (another yet) Tristan did get a direct shout out for votes by Borchetta who creeps me out totally. "vote for the country" Well,. is she not the only country one left? Is Jeneve country? bc IDK.

 

IT seems Rox is becoming TCO and that makes me stabby. I find her so very fake and Jax-ish ... and that is not a good thing ... imo.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

YAY!!!!!!! KNOLLISHNESS!!!!!!!!

 

And Ari333, I've cleared a special place for you on my blanket because we share the same brain.

[ari333]

YAY!!!!!!! KNOLLISHNESS!!!!!!!!

 

And Ari333, I've cleared a special place for you on my blanket because we share the same brain.

 

Hee ! Squee! prancy dance!

 

I thought I was all alone and talking to myself and the ....

 

 

****** crickets ******

 

until you showed up!

Awesome! I loves me some Knoll! 

Bring on the conspiracies and the "sneaky snakes" [/tm madd tv ....that guy in the office skit played by Michael  McDonald ]

 

Quit hoggin up the blankie. I have a voluminous tushy. :-)

 

And pass the snacks!

Edited February 25, 2016 by ari333

[PhD-Purgatory15]

I still think Tristan is very much one of their chosen ones. The opportunity for AI to say bon voyage with a young, marketable, stereotype-breaking female country artist is just too tempting. Last night, was all about protecting Trent and La'Porsha. And possibly protecting Olivia who apparently was under the weather with the flu. While most people might have assumed that L&T were locks to get through had they both been forced to sing for their survival.....past AI voting patterns probably made the showrunners have enough doubt in L&T, to not take any chances.

 

I'm a little more confused as how they see Olivia. Originally I thought she was another version of the preternaturally poised teen Lovey James from last season who they fawned over in the initial auditions, and then was pretty incognito until she quickly got the boot in the semi finals. But now I think they see Olivia as an acceptable alternative to Tristan. Especially as Tristan's performances have remained pretty uneven.

 

What will be even more interesting is if they choose to turn on Dalton or MacKenzie at any point in the Top 10 onward. Because as much as they pimp Tristan or Olivia (or La'Porsha who isn't really a threat to win the whole thing), I still don't know how they rise higher than 3rd or 4th place if the voting patterns (not counting Season 12 which was the ultimate outlier) remain generally in line with most of the later seasons. If Lee or Thomas survives tonight even they could get into the mix and stay in this till close to the finals.

[Stratego]

I still think Tristan is very much one of their chosen ones. The opportunity for AI to say bon voyage with a young, marketable, stereotype-breaking female country artist is just too tempting. Last night, was all about protecting Trent and La'Porsha. And possibly protecting Olivia who apparently was under the weather with the flu. While most people might have assumed that L&T were locks to get through had they both been forced to sing for their survival.....past AI voting patterns probably made the showrunners have enough doubt in L&T, to not take any chances.

 

I'm a little more confused as how they see Olivia. Originally I thought she was another version of the preternaturally poised teen Lovey James from last season who they fawned over in the initial auditions, and then was pretty incognito until she quickly got the boot in the semi finals. But now I think they see Olivia as an acceptable alternative to Tristan. Especially as Tristan's performances have remained pretty uneven.

 

What will be even more interesting is if they choose to turn on Dalton or MacKenzie at any point in the Top 10 onward. Because as much as they pimp Tristan or Olivia (or La'Porsha who isn't really a threat to win the whole thing), I still don't know how they rise higher than 3rd or 4th place if the voting patterns (not counting Season 12 which was the ultimate outlier) remain generally in line with most of the later seasons. If Lee or Thomas survives tonight even they could get into the mix and stay in this till close to the finals.

I think the judges "went an extra mile" to ensure this didn't happen!  Judge #1:  "Ooh, honey, I think you missed the emotion of the song."  Judge#2:  "Wow. that sucked!"  Judge #3:  "I had to open the door to let the air back into the room after you finished."  Judge#4  "I just want to make sure you know that you suck."

 

Or at least my take on his critiques.

[PhD-Purgatory15]

Last night's critique of Lee or the night before? They were pretty hard on Lee last night, along with Gianna. It seems clear that the show wants them to finish 9th and 10th despite Tristan and Olivia being just as bad or significantly worse in Tristan's case...

Edited February 26, 2016 by PhD-Purgatory15

[MrsMoltisanti]

I think they want Dalton for the win to make up for Adam Lambert losing to Kris.

[ari333]

For me (for you) [/Randy] - Tristan was shouty and flat. Maybe it's my ears or my tv.  or both. Yet I still wonder if she is the fake TCO and someone else is the real TCO... Rox? (I hope not) or Dalton (I could live with that) .... something is fishy... hmmm..

Edited February 26, 2016 by ari333

[PhD-Purgatory15]

Dalton and MacKenzie don't need to be TCO, because they both are what America has proven they want season after season (minus the producer manipulated S12).

What I really don't understand is the OTT praise slathered on La'Porsha. They can't honestly believe she is TCO, can they? Her best case scenario is to be some minor R&B star in the vein of Jill Scott or someone comparable. I don't even think that is likely. Borchetta and BM records most likely want nothing to do with her post show. So what's with the possibly tampered with in house audience reaction in her favor....are they trying force an voting audience backlash? Or complacency?

Edited February 26, 2016 by PhD-Purgatory15

[kili]

I think they want Dalton for the win to make up for Adam Lambert losing to Kris.

 

Dalton != Adam (and I'm a Kris fan). 

 

On what planet is a former boy-bander with a middling voice any kind of proxy for the vocal talent and eclectic stylings of Adam Lambert?

 

Seven years have passed. The horse has long left the barn. If they were going to force a result to make up for Adam's loss, they would have done it years before. I refuse to believe that Dalton is the closest they've come to replacing Adam in 7 years. Adam is irreplaceable, but surely somebody more suitable than Dalton has shown up.

 

Plus, I will forever believe that TPTB wanted Adam to lose so that he could be the anti-winner. That worked well with Daughtry. They don't have to worry about him being the American Idol so he can be more "dangerous" and "rebellious" and let the audience crown their after-winner. They just wanted him to lose to Gokey. Kris upset the Gokey plan.  TPTB never saw Kris coming. He wasn't supposed to make it out of the semis.

 

Idol wants a marketable person this year. They probably think it is Dalton, Olivia or Tristan (Tristan is fading fast, but I believe she was their original chosen one). I can't imagine they want La'Porsha to win because her style of music isn't big right now and Borschetta has not one single clue how to work in that market. He may think he knows how to market MacKenzie because Taylor is besties with Ed. Everybody else is there just to provide context for the show. Maybe, Trent is marketable, but it's not clear to me that Borschetta would see it. He won't see the $$$ in Avalon either (doesn't mean she's not marketable by the right person).

 

They can't honestly believe [La'Porsha] is TCO, can they?

 

 

She may be the Token CO. Mid-season (and it is a short season so they don' t have their normal amount of times to set up things), they will tell her that she hasn't grown while raving about the True CO's growth. Much like horse races, Idol is rarely won by the person who leads out of the gate. Sometimes, a Secretariat appears (like Carrie) and does manage to do that. Expect Harry to suddenly notice that La'Porsha does too many runs.

Edited February 27, 2016 by kili

[BogoGog24]

I don't think so. I think they just genuinely believed her performance was really that good, sometimes the performances translate better in the studio than through our TVs. I just assumed it was one of those scenarios. Also any time a contestant fills their performance with runs like that, it is bound to get OTT praise.

 

I believe Olivia is probably their TCO now. I think initially it was Tristan but she has faltered badly in every round since her audition so they probably realize they need to shift it to somebody who's been a little more consistent. I don't think Dalton or any of the guys are TCO since they keep claiming they want a female winner.

[ari333]

When did they claim that they want a female winner? I missed it (sincere question)

[viajero]

I don't think they've been consistently pushing anybody, except maybe to some extent La'Porsha, Dalton and Trent.  While those three are among the most talented this season, I still feel like they consistently get somewhat overpraised by the judges.  That was certainly true last night, when La'Porsha was treated like the second coming of Aretha Franklin, no mention was made of just how weak and mediocre Dalton's vocals were, or that Trent sang If I Can in the wrong key. 

 

At the other end of the spectrum, Lee, Tristan and Gianna fully deserved the negative comments they received last night and my only complaint concerning those three is that the judges waited this long to point out what has been obvious for awhile now; which is that none of them are remotely ready for this.

 

I feel like the rest of the contestants have generally been treated rather fairly. 

 

I don't think so. I think they just genuinely believed her performance was really that good, sometimes the performances translate better in the studio than through our TVs. I just assumed it was one of those scenarios. Also any time a contestant fills their performance with runs like that, it is bound to get OTT praise.

 

I believe Olivia is probably their TCO now. I think initially it was Tristan but she has faltered badly in every round since her audition so they probably realize they need to shift it to somebody who's been a little more consistent. I don't think Dalton or any of the guys are TCO since they keep claiming they want a female winner.

 

I just don't see where Olivia has been benefiting from any major favoritism so far.  Otherwise, why did they make her go first last night?  I also think she has consistently received mostly fair comments from the judges.  A lot of praise when she deserves it (like last week) and much milder praise mixed with constructive criticism when warranted (like last night).

 

I also haven't noticed that they "keep claiming" they want a female winner.  There has been a lot of talk about how strong the females are this season, but that hasn't been totally inaccurate.  They have three really strong males, but otherwise the females as a whole have been a lot stronger.  Have they ever said that the bookend to Kelly Clarkson needs to be female?  I just don't buy it given that 2 out of the 3 people they have been pushing the hardest are male.

[Guest]

On what planet is a former boy-bander with a middling voice any kind of proxy for the vocal talent and eclectic stylings of Adam Lambert?

On the planet where eyeliner is all that matters.  

 

I think 19E has their hooks in the top 10's post-Idol income regardless, so Adam could win or not win and if he's a big star, they get $$$ AND bragging rights.  

[BogoGog24]

You all must have missed JLo's comment when she said "A girl needs to win! Fuck the guys!"

[Guest]

I know she makes a mint but I don't think they're letting JLo pick the winners and drive the editing.  Who knows, though.  

[BogoGog24]

No but I think the producers want us to believe it's a "girl's season" by pushing the female talent and having the judges make remarks like that. The judges also commented on the female talent during auditions, there was a brief segment dedicated to showing lots of strong female singers, with the judges saying something like "The ladies are bringing it" or "Its all about the ladies" or whatever.

Edited February 27, 2016 by BogoGog24

[viajero]

No but I think the producers want us to believe it's a "girl's season" by pushing the female talent and having the judges make remarks like that. The judges also commented on the female talent during auditions, there was a brief segment dedicated to showing lots of strong female singers, with the judges saying something like "The ladies are bringing it" or "Its all about the ladies" or whatever.

 

But those statements are all fairly accurate.  There have been a lot more fairly strong female contestants that strong male contestants this season.  Plus, making those statements about the ladies hasn't kept them from lavishing praise on the few strong guys they do have.

[BogoGog24]

But those statements are all fairly accurate. There have been a lot more fairly strong female contestants that strong male contestants this season. Plus, making those statements about the ladies hasn't kept them from lavishing praise on the few strong guys they do have.

That could be more that they learned their lesson from season 12 and decided to stack the deck in a less obvious way this year. The fact they ended up choosing more girls than guys this year also kind of points to them hoping/wanting a female winner. They're just being less bussy about it this year and actually giving some of the guys a fair chance. I like a few of the females but honestly I like the guys more this year like Dalton, MacKenzie, and Trent, and overall any of them interest me far more than La'Porsha, Avalon, or Sonika (the females I like).

[TheGreenKnight]

That could be more that they learned their lesson from season 12 and decided to stack the deck in a less obvious way this year. The fact they ended up choosing more girls than guys this year also kind of points to them hoping/wanting a female winner. They're just being less bussy about it this year and actually giving some of the guys a fair chance. I like a few of the females but honestly I like the guys more this year like Dalton, MacKenzie, and Trent, and overall any of them interest me far more than La'Porsha, Avalon, or Sonika (the females I like).

The problem there is that season 12 came about the way it did because the show learned their lesson from the seasons before it. Having a contestant like MacKenzie or Dalton in the voting rounds negates any possibility of a female winner. Even if they tried to bus them from here to the end, it won't work. (I'd be happy to be wrong though.) I did like Dalton, but this past performance made me realize his voice is as weak as MacKenzie's.

[ari333]

The problem there is that season 12 came about the way it did because the show learned their lesson from the seasons before it. Having a contestant like MacKenzie or Dalton in the voting rounds negates any possibility of a female winner. Even if they tried to bus them from here to the end, it won't work. (I'd be happy to be wrong though.) I did like Dalton, but this past performance made me realize his voice is as weak as MacKenzie's.

I agree bussing wont work. I also agree that Dalton is not the best voice ever, but.... he is cute, sexy, and entertaining. Britney Spears isn't the best vocalist around, but she's hot and entertaining. Sometimes that's all it takes. If, for whatever reason, they want a female winner, they may have messed for reasons you mentioned.  I think the same applies (maybe less so?) to MacKenzie

[BogoGog24]

Yeah I agree that if they are really wanting a female winner this year they really ruined their chances by putting through Mac and Dalton (Mac especially). I'm scared one or both is going to get praised in the beginning (like the tongue baths Dalton keeps getting) and then they'll get thrown under the bus Haley Reinhart/Jessica Muese style when they start advancing too far.

It's very confusing. I feel like they do want a female since there's so many complaints about the lack of female winners and probably also because they started with a female winner, but then they put in I would say 3 guys who have a serious shot of winning (the third guy I would say is Trent), meanwhile they have at least 2 weak females (Tristan and Gianna) who will probably get axed this week. Who knows what TPTB are thinking. They change the rules every week.

Dalton has the flu plus a sinus infection so that could be why he didn't sound the best this week. I still think he managed to pull out a great performance in spite of being so sick, honestly I couldn't tell he was until he mentioned it in a post-show interview. But even when he's healthy I agree he doesn't have the best voice, however as ari mentioned, that's never necessarily been that important in the music industry anyway. He has a decent enough voice for the kind of music he wants to do, plus looks, charisma, and performing ability on top of it. He also writes his own songs.

[TheGreenKnight]

But even when he's healthy I agree he doesn't have the best voice, however as ari mentioned, that's never necessarily been that important in the music industry anyway.

I guess I don't get the point of a show like American Idol if it puts through people who look the part, but don't have the voice to go with it. That's the antithesis of its intentions. But the show's been off the rails for a while now.

[kili]

I guess I don't get the point of a show like American Idol if it puts through people who look the part, but don't have the voice to go with it. That's the antithesis of its intentions.

The original version of the show (in the UK) was called Pop Idol. It's always about finding a pop recording artist and being a pop recording artist does not require a good voice. A good voice can be an asset, but it is not the only factor or even necessary. Sometimes good-looks and stage presence can trump a good voice (which can be fixed in studio). Good songs help.

 

Simon Fuller started the show as an A&R exercise and actually expected good-looking boys to be the main winners. 

[Guest]

Simon Cowell used to say it regularly, their ability to sing on pitch doesn't matter.  They fix pitch in the studio and lip sync live or sing along with their studio/fixed track to drown themselves out but still be able to say they don't lip sync.  Taylor Swift, Britney Spears, Katy Perry, Rihanna, Jennifer...

[TheGreenKnight]

I don't remember Simon ever saying that. What I do remember is Simon saying--constantly--was that, when it comes down to it, the show is supposed to be a singing contest. It's about finding someone who has the complete package--looks, voice, star quality, etc. This is why he championed people like Kelly, Fantasia, Katharine, Adam, etc. who had a look and a voice to go with it. Pop stars who can't sing don't need a show like Idol, because they're populating the charts as it is. It's really not surprising that the ratings began to drop when that concept went down the drain.

[kili]

I don't remember Simon ever saying that. What I do remember is Simon saying--constantly--was that, when it comes down to it, the show is supposed to be a singing contest.

Simon would say it was a singing contest when promoting somebody who can sing or trying to get rid of somebody who could not sing. When he wanted to promote somebody who couldn't sing or get rid of somebody who could sing, he would say that it was more than just a singing contest. Simon was flexible that way. He's an A&R guy and he knows that the world is full of unmarketable people who are really good singers.   

 

Cowell's biggest success with reality competition singers was a group of 5 boys he threw together because they were cute and each ticked a demo profile. They have gotten to be better singers (and had some great pop songs), but one could never argue that One Direction was the best singers to come out of X-Factor. 

 

It's about finding someone who has the complete package--looks, voice, star quality, etc. This is why he championed people like Kelly, Fantasia, Katharine, Adam, etc. who had a look and a voice to go with it.

Simon called Kelly unremarkable. It was the other two who were her champion. It's only once he realized she was a gold mine that he hopped on the band wagon.  Katharine has had a not-so-successful singing career (but done well enough in acting). Cowell was right about Carrie which is kind of surprising because he usually doesn't understand Country music. 

 

Cowell was also the judge who pimped Lee DeWyze to victory - a guy who rarely sang in key (they called it the Key of Lee - that was one case where Simon argued that singing on key was not relevant as he chastised the other judges for mentioning it), was not conventionally attractive (and had very unfortunate face hair) and was completely unmarketable (with the worst track record of any winner until Caleb came along). Although, I think that Cowell was actually trying to kill the show that year.

[TheGreenKnight]

Cowell's biggest success with reality competition singers was a group of 5 boys he threw together because they were cute and each ticked a demo profile. They have gotten to be better singers (and had some great pop songs), but one could never argue that One Direction was the best singers to come out of X-Factor. 

Yes, and they were on TXF, not American Idol. Each show has its own brand. Susan Boyle is another person who would never work on American Idol, because they are focused on 16-30 year-olds solo artists. Before he jumped on the Kelly train, he pimped Tamyra Gray--who was a powerhouse vocalist just like her. Each year, he would go for the contestant with the most star power who could sing at least moderately well--if not sing the best of all the contestants.

 

Cowell was also the judge who pimped Lee DeWyze to victory - a guy who rarely sang in key (they called it the Key of Lee - that was one case where Simon argued that singing on key was not relevant as he chastised the other judges for mentioning it), was not conventionally attractive (and had very unfortunate face hair) and was completely unmarketable (with the worst track record of any winner until Caleb came along). Although, I think that Cowell was actually trying to kill the show that year.

You said what I was going to. He was hoping to take over from Idol with TXF and saddled Idol with yet another white guy in order to ruin the show. And white guys who can barely sing have ruined the show, among other things.

[BogoGog24]

Well I guess YMMV because Lee was the first contestant I ever really loved since I began watching the show in season 5. I was probably like 16/17 when he was on, so maybe I didn't pay attention to pitch as much or whatever, but I thought he had a great voice and was extremely attractive. Maybe he didn't always sing in key but he had a very unique rock voice that stood out. I always enjoyed him and he was the first Idol I felt compelled to vote for. Clearly a lot of people felt the same way since he won.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

They killed Stephany.  Why?  To open the path for the most un-ready and unprofessional Top 10 cast evah.

 

So, my little pretties and fellow knollers....speak to me about the Judge's Save for this season.

 

Thank you.

[BogoGog24]

They killed Stephany.  Why?  To open the path for the most un-ready and unprofessional Top 10 cast evah.

 

So, my little pretties and fellow knollers....speak to me about the Judge's Save for this season.

 

Thank you.

There won't be a judges save this year. Not sure if the Twitter save is still intact or not.

[Guest]

(they called it the Key of Lee - that was one case where Simon argued that singing on key was not relevant as he chastised the other judges for mentioning it), was not conventionally attractive (and had very unfortunate face hair) and was completely unmarketable (with the worst track record of any winner until Caleb came along). Although, I think that Cowell was actually trying to kill the show that year.

The ones who called it 'the key of Lee' were some TWOPers who favored Crystal.  I don't recall Simon ever dissing Lee's singing.  

 

Lee wasn't unmarketable, he was unmarketed.  America voted him their idol.  If the record label can't or won't do something with that, that's on them.  

 

I don't remember Simon ever saying that. 

We could both be right.  I only watched season 7 and on.  I just recall Randy remarking on pitch half his critiques and Simon waving it off.  

 

I kind of figure even Keith and Harry know pitch doesn't matter to commercial success and only mention it to show it matters to them, and they hear it.  I don't think most viewers or radio listeners hear it or care.