The Winds Of Winter: Book 6 Will Arrive...Someday

[Advance35]

Well GRRM himself just said that Willas Tyrell will NOT be a POV character BUT he will be entering the scene in the next book and play a substantial part of the story going forward.

 

http://watchersonthewall.com/highlights-george-r-r-martins-edinburgh-book-festival-appearance/#more-1415

 

This throws every theory I had on it's head, AGAIN.   So now I'm thinking maybe House Tyrell won't fall when all is said and done and if Willas is going to play a role that matters, I could see him either finding a way to connect with Dany when she FINALLY hits Westeros OR maybe he goes to the Vale to shore up an alliance with the only other Great House that has access to a large amount of food and adding another weapon to House Tyrell's arsenal against House Lannister.

 

Maybe Sansa and Willas will meet after all.

[Bill1978]

 But Myrcella before she dies will be crowned, "Gold shall be their crowns and gold shall be their shrouds," which suggests to me that Myrcella outlives Tommen.  

 

 

 

I've always assumed the gold crown part of the prophecy reflected the colour of the kids hair, now an actual crown.

 

[Winnief]

 

This throws every theory I had on it's head, AGAIN.   So now I'm thinking maybe House Tyrell won't fall when all is said and done and if Willas is going to play a role that matters, I could see him either finding a way to connect with Dany when she FINALLY hits Westeros OR maybe he goes to the Vale to shore up an alliance with the only other Great House that has access to a large amount of food and adding another weapon to House Tyrell's arsenal against House Lannister.

 

House Tyrell could survive and keep the Reach, (though not be near the throne for another generation or two) IF they break their ties with House Lannister and do it sooner rather than later.  I think they burned their bridges for a marriage with House Stark when they framed Sansa for Joffrey's murder but a partnership between the Vale and the Reach isn't unthinkable-Sansa's learning the game and while she may have soured on marrying a Tyrell she might make a realpolitik style alliance with them.  In the meantime, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei tries to make an alliance with Euron as a last ditch attempt to hold power now that she's burned her bridges with everyone else in Westeros.  

 

While I think Arianne will marry Aegon, I wouldn't be surprised if Varys was hoping to wed Aegon to Sansa, (since Dany's gone AWOL, and hell Targs can have more than one wife anyway,) since Sansa brings support from the North AND the Riverlands, while Aegon is theoretically already kin to the Martells.  (Though, I'm quite sure he's a fake.) But again, Arianne's going to want that crown and she's...persuasive.  Besides which Sansa I suspect is THROUGH with other people choosing husbands for her which is why I also feel confident, the Hardyng marriage will never come to pass either.  That and the fact that she's going to slay the Titan...

 

Of course if/when Jon's parentage gets out he's suddenly going to be the most desirable bachelor in all Seven Kingdoms.  Poor Jon.

[Avaleigh]

I'm trying to decide who the POV will be for the parts that will include Willas. Maybe there will be more than one? Olenna as a prologue has been an idea that has appealed to me for awhile. Arianne seems like a possibility too.

I'm guessing Willas isn't going to be nailed to Highgarden--I definitely like the idea of him making some sort of platonic alliance with Sansa at some point in the story.

Talking about Jon's potential status as the most eligible bachelor in Westeros--I do wonder what Sansa would make of the info that she'd been living with a secret prince all those years just like in some song.

[Advance35]

Besides which Sansa I suspect is THROUGH with other people choosing husbands for her which is why I also feel confident, the Hardyng marriage will never come to pass either.  That and the fact that she's going to slay the Titan...

 

This is a popular sentiment but I'm one of the one's that thinks if Sansa does survive this story she DEFINITELY  has a political marriage ahead of her.   It wouldn't be a matter of Varys choosing this or that husband for her, it would just be a matter of him convincing her that the selected husband will be to  her/House Stark/The North's benefit.    If she can be convinced of that I think she'd marry anyone from Aegon or Willas Tyrell or any other powerful family in Westeros (the exception being House Lannister or Frey).

 

She doesn't seem sour on the Tyrells to me.   The only Houses she HATES are the Lannisters, Frey's and Boltons.   She seems to dismiss the Tyrells now that they aren't going to be of any help to her.   I don't think she likes them or is as enamored as she was/the masses are but if she thought they could help her restore the North or help a Stark resurrgence I don't think she'd hesitate to marry Willas Tyrell.   Though I could also see her ending up with someone like Hoster Blackwood.

 

Talking about Jon's potential status as the most eligible bachelor in Westeros--I do wonder what Sansa would make of the info that she'd been living with a secret prince all those years just like in some song.

 

Everytime I think about Jon and Sansa, I  think about CoK where Sansa is watching House Lannister reward certain Court Players and she see's Janos Slynt awarded lands and etc.   She thinks about how much she hates him and how she wishes someone would cut his head off, but that there is no such thing as heroes, only in songs.   And than a few books later Jon Snow cuts his head off in the yard of Castle Black.   I always thought that was very well done by GRRM.

[benteen]

I'm trying to decide who the POV will be for the parts that will include Willas. Maybe there will be more than one? Olenna as a prologue has been an idea that has appealed to me for awhile. Arianne seems like a possibility too.

I'm guessing Willas isn't going to be nailed to Highgarden--I definitely like the idea of him making some sort of platonic alliance with Sansa at some point in the story.

Talking about Jon's potential status as the most eligible bachelor in Westeros--I do wonder what Sansa would make of the info that she'd been living with a secret prince all those years just like in some song.

 

Perhaps the prologue.  The even-number prologues have taken place in the South, Dragonstone and Oldtown while the odd-number ones have taken place Beyond the Wall.  So I think we'll get the prologue in The Reach.  Possibly even The Arbor since they were under siege too though that would mean Willas not being around. 

 

Sam would seem the likely POV for anything regarding Willas.

[Winnief]

 

She doesn't seem sour on the Tyrells to me.   The only Houses she HATES are the Lannisters, Frey's and Boltons.   She seems to dismiss the Tyrells now that they aren't going to be of any help to her.   I don't think she likes them or is as enamored as she was/the masses are but if she thought they could help her restore the North or help a Stark resurrgence I don't think she'd hesitate to marry Willas Tyrell.   Though I could also see her ending up with someone like Hoster Blackwood.

 

Fair enough.  If Willas was a potential suitor though, I think he would have made it to the show.  IF Sansa does end up the only viable heir to Riverrun, (the Frey's will NEVER keep it, poor Edmure's life expectancy ain't great and neither is Roslin's, Bran's busy turning into an Old God, and the North ain't giving up Rickon from Winterfell once it's restored to him,) then I always thought a marriage to Hoster would make a lot of sense.  The Blackwoods are another family that dates back to the First Men, they too worship the Old Gods and even have a weir wood tree, they've behaved honorably, they are one of the most respected and powerful families in the Riverlands, and Hoster seems like a great guy to boot.  So Sansa/Hoster would be a match to rule the Riverlands that the River Lords and smallfolk alike would be willing to accept.

 

 

 

Talking about Jon's potential status as the most eligible bachelor in Westeros--I do wonder what Sansa would make of the info that she'd been living with a secret prince all those years just like in some song.

Everytime I think about Jon and Sansa, I  think about CoK where Sansa is watching House Lannister reward certain Court Players and she see's Janos Slynt awarded lands and etc.   She thinks about how much she hates him and how she wishes someone would cut his head off, but that there is no such thing as heroes, only in songs.   And than a few books later Jon Snow cuts his head off in the yard of Castle Black.   I always thought that was very well done by GRRM.

 

That's actually one of the reasons I think Sansa/Jon might be a good match.  He's actually the Knight figure she's been looking for, except he wore black instead of shining armor.  In the meanwhile Sansa is when you think about almost the perfect choice for Queen Consort and if she were the YMBQ Cersei's head would explode.  And Jon likes redheads...Of course they were raised as siblings which could be a problem, but I still like it much better than Jon marrying his Aunt Dany ESPECIALLY given the long history of too much Targ inbreeding and the problems that's caused.  

[Advance35]

The Blackwoods are another family that dates back to the First Men, they too worship the Old Gods and even have a weir wood tree, they've behaved honorably, they are one of the most respected and powerful families in the Riverlands, and Hoster seems like a great guy to boot.  So Sansa/Hoster would be a match to rule the Riverlands that the River Lords and smallfolk alike would be willing to accept.

 

What struck me about House Blackwood was that it seemed like they were a House that Tywin and Kevan had respect for.   It was one of the reasons he insisted Tyrion marry Sansa.   Tyrion wanted to return Sansa to her mother but Tywin said if they did Catelyn would have her married to a House Manderly or House Blackwood to shore up and solidify alliances.   He went on to say that BOTH are very dangerous.   For Tywin to think that says a lot IMO.   The only thing that could be considered a mark against Hoster Blackwood is his enlightened view on family grudges.   He seemed to think it was all a vicious circle at least between the Blackwoods and Brackens.    Though Sansa hasn't had the chance to act on anything yet, reading her narrative does show that she very much holds grudges and I think she will always hold something against all the Houses that had direct conflict with House Stark during the Wo5K.

 

 That's actually one of the reasons I think Sansa/Jon might be a good match.  He's actually the Knight figure she's been looking for, except he wore black instead of shining armor.  In the meanwhile Sansa is when you think about almost the perfect choice for Queen Consort and if she were the YMBQ Cersei's head would explode.  And Jon likes redheads...Of course they were raised as siblings which could be a problem, but I still like it much better than Jon marrying his Aunt Dany ESPECIALLY given the long history of too much Targ inbreeding and the problems that's caused.

 

Well GRRM did say that a few people have guessed the ending to the whole story but I still can't picture Jon on the Iron Throne.    I do feel like he and Sansa will meet again, I don't know why but I do.   I think Sansa is MUCH more likely to see Jon again than Arya.   And my main reason for that is Jon was forumlating a plan to approach the Vale for food supplies for the Night's Watch.   I don't see Sansa going or living out her life in the North but if she survives I think she'll always act on the North's behalf or the North's best interest.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Advance35

[Avaleigh]

I forgot about Sam, benteen, that makes sense although I do wonder how they'll handle having Sam interact with certain characters if he's going through stay stuck on the Wall rather than journeying to Oldtown.

I wonder if Garland Tyrell could be written in as a substitute for Willas especially if Loras ends up dying on Dragonstone.

I too prefer the idea of Jon/Sansa to Jon/Dany but I lean towards Jon and Dany because of show Dany's vision in the HotU.

Something about Jon and Sansa appeals to me because I feel like they've both changed in ways that would make the one right for the other. Jon has become exactly the sort of hero that Sansa has dreamed about and wished existed. They both gained additional respect for the Old Gods, particularly I think Sansa, and I think that's an interesting element that Jon would appreciate as he probably remembers Sansa being a dutiful follower of the Faith of the Seven. I can honestly see Sansa liking and being attracted to Jon for looking so much like a Stark. As for Jon, yeah, he definitely likes redheads and there's no way IMO if they were to ever meet again that Sansa wouldn't go out of her way to be warm to him instead of how she used to be back when she was still taking a less severe version of her mother's attitude WRT Jon and his place in the Stark household. I also don't think the switch from thinking of each other as half siblings as opposed to cousins is much of a thing as I don't think Jon and Sansa ever had a strong sibling bond and GRRM might very well have played it that way for a reason.

If Sansa ends up marrying someone in the Riverlands to secure that claim I'm inclined for her to make an alliance with House Mallister. Blackwood is good too though. I guess I just feel like the Mallisters have a stronger connection overall to the Starks so I guess that gives them the edge for me.

I don't think the Targaryen inbreeding is a huge obstacle when it comes to the idea of Jon and Dany. I just can't see us getting a story where they hook up and Dany then gives birth to some mad weakling or another deformed stillborn. That would just feel like a retread in some ways and a total waste of time when we're in the home stretch of the story. If Jon and Dany are the end game I can't help but think that if they did have a child (a huge if btw IMO) that the coin will land on the right side and it'll be a strong one who will presumably make his or her mark in the history of Westeros.

Another obstacle to Jon/Sansa to me would be Arya. I think she'd hate the idea of Jon going for Sansa. Not saying that she'd hurt either of them over it or that she wants Jon for herself, I just think she'd be irritated and would go back to all of the times she felt Sansa was stupid about something or times she was bitchy with/about Jon. It would grate on her nerves I think and I can't see her being happy about it.

[Winnief]

 

he only thing that could be considered a mark against Hoster Blackwood is his enlightened view on family grudges.   He seemed to think it was all a vicious circle at least between the Blackwoods and Brackens.    Though Sansa hasn't had the chance to act on anything yet, reading her narrative does show that she very much holds grudges and I think she will always hold something against all the Houses that had direct conflict with House Stark during the Wo5K.

 

I'm not so sure about that.  Sansa may be bitter for a lot of good reasons but she's no Arya.  Fact is Houses Bolton and Frey are doomed anyway regardless of what Sansa does or doesn't do, which leaves the Lannisters.  And while Cersei will always be hated by Sansa, she's more inclined to be forgiving to the rest of the family especially Tyrion. Remember she called the Maester to help Lancel and she doesn't even like him.  So once Cersei meets her fate via the Valonqar, Sansa might be willing to let bygones be bygones-she won't want to remain married to Tyrion of course and I doubt she'd want her family ever having any dealings with Casterly Rock in the future, but she wouldn't be seeking vengeance or anything either.   

 

 

I don't think the Targaryen inbreeding is a huge obstacle when it comes to the idea of Jon and Dany. I just can't see us getting a story where they hook up and Dany then gives birth to some mad weakling or another deformed stillborn. That would just feel like a retread in some ways and a total waste of time when we're in the home stretch of the story. If Jon and Dany are the end game I can't help but think that if they did have a child (a huge if btw IMO) that the coin will land on the right side and it'll be a strong one who will presumably make his or her mark in the history of Westeros.

 

Maybe, but the question of whether Jon or Dany would be willing to risk it is IMO a different matter since people in Westeros, (and readers as well for that matter) all have such painful memories of Joffrey. In any event if Martin's latest comments in interviews are any guide it could be a long, long wait before Dany ever meets Tyrion much less Jon so I guess it's all academic for now.  

 

 

Another obstacle to Jon/Sansa to me would be Arya. I think she'd hate the idea of Jon going for Sansa. Not saying that she'd hurt either of them over it or that she wants Jon for herself, I just think she'd be irritated and would go back to all of the times she felt Sansa was stupid about something or times she was bitchy with/about Jon. It would grate on her nerves I think and I can't see her being happy about it.

 

Ha!  Fair point.  Though Arya's opinion about her sister may mellow a bit with age and maturity-especially since Sansa's going to be quite a bit different from the way Arya remembers her by the time they're ever re-united.  If they ever are re-united which is indeed a big "if."  

 

Since I'm pretty confident though, that Sansa one way or another *will* meet up with Blackfish, I'm more interested in his reaction to all that since all he knows of Jon was informed by Cat's notoriously biased reports on the matter.  If, something does happen to Edmure and Roslin as well, though, you can just bet that the Blackfish will be the first one pulling for Sansa as the Lady of Riverrun and that he'd be all about marrying her to a Blackwood or Mallister, arguing that it's precisely what Cat and Hoster would have wanted as well as the best thing for the Riverlands since even if anyone were willing to accept Emmon Frey (which they aren't) the guy's clearly unfit to rule a tavern much less a kingdom while Sansa with her obvious Tully features is not only someone who would be accepted but is temperamentally suited to the job as well with her social finesse, experience running the Eyrie household, strong sense of duty, and growing understanding of politics.  And Blackfish would be right.  She makes far more sense than say Rickon who being by now half-Wildling could be poised to be a Northern chieftain of the older, wilder, more savage line of Stark rulers in the past.  

[BookEater]

Perhaps the prologue.  The even-number prologues have taken place in the South, Dragonstone and Oldtown while the odd-number ones have taken place Beyond the Wall.  So I think we'll get the prologue in The Reach.  Possibly even The Arbor since they were under siege too though that would mean Willas not being around. 

 

Sam would seem the likely POV for anything regarding Willas.

 

Didn't Martin confirm recently that Jeyne Westerling would be in the prologue? And last we saw she was headed back to the Crag. Assuming it was her of course, I know there's a fan theory the girl Jaime saw wasn't Jeyne, though I hope it was. I really don't want another character with a hidden identity.

[ElizaD]

Sansa marrying a decent Blackwood or Mallister sounds too good to be true, but if it did happen I'd be so happy.

 

I haven't read anything about Blackfish returning in S5, but I've seen fan speculation that he could take Stoneheart's place in killing Freys when the show gets around to showing a bit of that. Sophie Turner mentioned "familiar faces": I hope that includes Blackfish, and whatever Brienne does in TWOW, on TV I feel that it would be very strange if she spent season 5 without Jaime (who's in Dorne) and without finding Sansa.

 

Blackfish should have also heard about Jon from Robb, who loved him; I think it's possible that he was bluffing when he mentioned Jon to Jaime in AFFC because he doesn't want him to think of Robb's secretly legitimized heir on the Wall as a potential threat to the Lannister hold on the Riverlands.

 

Didn't Martin confirm recently that Jeyne Westerling would be in the prologue? And last we saw she was headed back to the Crag.

 

Damn, I guess that's the end of my hope that Willas would be in a TWOW prologue where Euron wrecked Highgarden.

[benteen]

Fair enough.  If Willas was a potential suitor though, I think he would have made it to the show.  IF Sansa does end up the only viable heir to Riverrun, (the Frey's will NEVER keep it, poor Edmure's life expectancy ain't great and neither is Roslin's, Bran's busy turning into an Old God, and the North ain't giving up Rickon from Winterfell once it's restored to him,) then I always thought a marriage to Hoster would make a lot of sense.  The Blackwoods are another family that dates back to the First Men, they too worship the Old Gods and even have a weir wood tree, they've behaved honorably, they are one of the most respected and powerful families in the Riverlands, and Hoster seems like a great guy to boot.  So Sansa/Hoster would be a match to rule the Riverlands that the River Lords and smallfolk alike would be willing to accept.

 

 

That's actually one of the reasons I think Sansa/Jon might be a good match.  He's actually the Knight figure she's been looking for, except he wore black instead of shining armor.  In the meanwhile Sansa is when you think about almost the perfect choice for Queen Consort and if she were the YMBQ Cersei's head would explode.  And Jon likes redheads...Of course they were raised as siblings which could be a problem, but I still like it much better than Jon marrying his Aunt Dany ESPECIALLY given the long history of too much Targ inbreeding and the problems that's caused.  

 

Seven hells, if Jon married Sansa there would be nothing stopping Lady Stoneheart from traveling up North to hang him!  Arya might not be too far behind her...

 

Interesting idea about the Blackfish taking on the Lady Stoneheart role.  Book Blackfish would never act that way but TV Blackfish is another character.  It's not the actor's fault but TV Blackfish comes across as too much of a crude thug to me.  Though I don't see even TV Blackfish becoming a religious fanatic like the TV Brotherhood.

Edited August 13, 2014 by benteen

[Winnief]

Actually wouldn't surprise me if the Prologue was about an attack on that traveling party including Jeyne.  Remember, there are a LOT of persons, (Emmon Frey, Genna, Littlefinger hoping to increase the number of Kingdoms Sansa has a right to while further inflaming anti-Lannister sentiments, etc.) who might find it beneficial  if Edmure and Roslin didn't make it to Casterly Rock alive.  Poor Jeyne could easily end up in the cross-fire.  I also think a situation like that could in some ways be the last straw for Jaime when it came to the Lannister cause in general and not just Cersei since he'd promised Edmure mercy and fair conduct.  Be interesting to see if Edmure survives Season Five, (they did promise population decline,) and if they bother to include Roslin's pregnancy.  Alternatively I suppose the Blackfish or BwB could be launching a rescue mission there.

 

As for the chance of a Jeyne imposter...if Jeyne had any more of a role to play, Talisa wouldn't have died.  

 

 

I haven't read anything about Blackfish returning in S5, but I've seen fan speculation that he could take Stoneheart's place in killing Freys when the show gets around to showing a bit of that. Sophie Turner mentioned "familiar faces": I hope that includes Blackfish, and whatever Brienne does in TWOW, on TV I feel that it would be very strange if she spent season 5 without Jaime (who's in Dorne) and without finding Sansa.

 

Agreed.  It's also possible the Frey's might just end up being killed by all their neighbors since they're now so widely despised and we're definitely in for some Frey Slaughter if/when any Frey's are stupid enough on the show to go up North as they did in the books.

 

(OT but can you believe they were that dumb?!?  And to send half their soldiers away too-they just threw away half their fighting force. Man they must have been greedy for opportunities to marry into Northern households and claim estates up there...)  

 

Also we know Jaime is going to use the teleporter to get from Dorne to the Riverlands next season and that could be a set-up for whatever comes next with the possible convergence of Vale/Riverlands storylines since D&D have to accelerate things from the books quite a bit and getting things in play for a number of other characters to go up North.  If TWOW isn't out before Season Five, I expect to see some spoilers for Jaime and Brienne's stories there as well as Sansa's.  

[charis]

Well GRRM himself just said that Willas Tyrell will NOT be a POV character BUT he will be entering the scene in the next book and play a substantial part of the story going forward.

 

This is interesting in the context of the show, which seems to have written out not just Willas but even the notion of Loras having siblings.  I wonder what that'll mean in terms of deviations.

[Avaleigh]

I guess they could introduce some Tyrell cousin who might be all hot to trot over now being third in line to Highgarden especially if show Loras ends up going down to Dragonstone to fight.

Wouldn't it be surprising if Willas turned out to not be particularly nice or competent as a ruler? I've just been under this assumption that he's a nice guy because of a couple of tidbits that have been dropped about him but I never really before considered the possibility that he might very well have some serious character flaws. I don't think this is likely, but I do find it interesting that considering we know so little about him, most readers including myself seem to take for granted that he's going to be some honorable, kind man that a girl like Sansa would be lucky to end up with.

[benteen]

It wouldn't be surprising if Willas is different than what we've heard.  Though I though it said a lot about him that he bore no grudge against Oberyn for his injury, especially in a world like Westeros where minor things can cause blood feuds.

[Lady S.]

I'm skeptical about what GRRM considers an important role, with the way he goes on about people on the show killed on the show before their time, all of whom have been pretty replaceable. A lot of people set things in motion in the plot with very little characterization, and are really nothing more than plot devices, though I doubt GRRM would ever admit any of his creations were such. If Jeyne Westerling is going to be collateral damage in the Winds prologue, then Talisa's earlier death at the Red Wedding seems like a non-issue. I don't see any reason why Willas couldn't be some hitherto-unmentioned Tyrell cousin, perhaps even a much younger brother of Mace. Or Loras could just take his place again, if the show drops his attack on Dragonstone, or if spec is right that his injuries were exaggerated in the book.
 

If Sansa ends up marrying someone in the Riverlands to secure that claim I'm inclined for her to make an alliance with House Mallister. Blackwood is good too though. I guess I just feel like the Mallisters have a stronger connection overall to the Starks so I guess that gives them the edge for me.

The Mallisters had a connection to Robb Stark, as the other northernmost Riverlands House they were his earliest supporters, along with House Frey. But the Stark family tree shows a history of intermarriage with House Blackwood only, probably because they were the only Riverlands House to still worship the Old Gods.

 

Another obstacle to Jon/Sansa to me would be Arya. I think she'd hate the idea of Jon going for Sansa. Not saying that she'd hurt either of them over it or that she wants Jon for herself, I just think she'd be irritated and would go back to all of the times she felt Sansa was stupid about something or times she was bitchy with/about Jon. It would grate on her nerves I think and I can't see her being happy about it.

I'd think the Arya obstacle to Jon/Sansa would be that Jon has always cared way more about Arya (it's weird to me that Sansa was his only known surviving family prior to Ramsay's letter yet he never wonders what happened to her and when defending her against Stannis's Lady Lannister remarks, he never thinks about how his former friend Tyrion became Sansa's husband) and girly girls have never been his type (Ygritte reminded him of Arya though you'd think the hair would be a Sansa jolt, then he later flirts with Alys Karstark who somewhat resembled Arya), and I'd think a redhead who resembled Cat in more than just hair color would be a turn-off to him, though he does love Sansa and thinks of both of them as his sisters. I actually think Jon/Sansa's distant relationship at Winterfell should be looked at as a two-way street, Jon sympathized with Arya in her conflicts with Sansa and Septa Mordane and specifically told her not to tell Sansa about Needle. Jon/Ygritte's 3x07 scene mentioning silly girls swooning felt very in-character to me, and was not one of the scenes GRRM disowned on the commentary. For all of Jon Snow's ~feminism~ extolled in fandom, I get the feeling that extends more to girls who want equality through being able to fight with men, and that he's less in tune with traditionally ladylike ladies because of Catelyn. I look forward to seeing Jon/Sansa meet again, however I think her newfound lack of societal rigidity would lead to a warmer relationship but wouldn't make her romantically attractive to him. (Sansa's taste in men otoh, has changed considerably since her prettyboy true knight phase. And the Janos Slynt thing seems like an unintentional parallel since GRRM said his original thought was for Jon to hang him and Jon changing his mind to beheading was a later revision.) 

[Hecate7]

I have often wondered if Jon Snow's predilection for red-haired women is some sort of foreshadowing of a relationship with Sansa later. Catelyn hated him and made no effort to conceal the fact, which actually might make him more vulnerable to women who resemble her. She was not his mother and never pretended to be, but she was still the closest thing to a mother he ever had, and her complete and resolute unavailability might have made Jon especially prone to pursue hostile, unavailable women with red hair out of an unconscious and lingering need to win over his "mother." 

 

If this is the case, he would be very vulnerable to Sansa precisely because of her resemblance to Catelyn. I don't know how he could resist a redhead who used to be cold to him, who was suddenly affectionate and loving.

[WearyTraveler]

Whenever I think of Jon and Sansa, all I can think of is: Eeeeeewwww!!!

 

I know they're not siblings, but, given that they were raised as such, it'd feel like Jaimie and Cersei, to me.

[Hecate7]

They weren't really raised as siblings, any more than Theon and Sansa were. Sansa was legitimate, Jon Snow a bastard. There's a whole world of difference there. It's more incestuous of her to marry Sweetrobin, (which I suspect she will, unless she marries Harry).

[WearyTraveler]

They weren't really raised as siblings, any more than Theon and Sansa were. Sansa was legitimate, Jon Snow a bastard. There's a whole world of difference there. It's more incestuous of her to marry Sweetrobin, (which I suspect she will, unless she marries Harry).

 

But everyone knew Theon was a ward, whereas they all knew Jon was a brother (at least they thought he was).  It's not the same.  I understand that Sansa didn't treat him as such because of Cat but she thought of him as a brother. Robb, Arya and Bran treated him as such, even if their mother made sure he didn't have the same privileges as her children.

 

It's one thing to think that the bastard child is entitled to less than the legitimate child, but it's quite another to say that the bastard status somehow takes away the sibling bond.  They all thought of him as Ned's son, regardless of the treatment he got.  To say "oh, well, he's not my brother anymore so now I can fuck him" would not be that easy.  In real life, if someone told me today that my sister was adopted, I'd still think of her as my sister, it's not a switch you can just turn off because you discover he's not really your sibling.  It's years and years of thinking of him as such versus weeks or months of thinking of him as a cousin.

Also, it'd still be as icky to me as Sansa and Robin because they would be as much cousins as Sansa and Robin are.  Robin is the son of Cat's sister and Jon is the son of Ned's sister, so, it'd be exactly the same kind of incestuous relationship.  They'd both feel icky to me, even if by Westerosi standards they are accepted.

 

[FurryFury]

I know they're not siblings, but, given that they were raised as such, it'd feel like Jaimie and Cersei, to me.

 

For me, it would be way worse than Jaime and Cersei because, unlike them, Jon and Sansa are heroic characters, thus my expectations when it comes to morality are much higher, plus we were never given any incentive to think their sibling relationship is anything but ordinary and non-squicky, unlike Jaime and Cersei. I don't actually mind incest at all - hell, it was Jaime's real, if twisted and unhealthy, love and devotion to Cersei that made me see him as something more than a creepy (attempted) childkiller all the way back in ASoS. But not between characters who've never ever regarded each other as something more than brother and sister. The same argument goes for Jon/Arya shipping, which I consider no less gross).

Edited August 16, 2014 by FurryFury

[Winnief]

Yeah, I can understand why many might find Sansa/Jon too "squicky," though of course those arguments go DOUBLE for Jon/Dany.

 

Frankly, I'd prefer if Jon could marry Margaery (assuming she survives though FOUR husbands might be a bit much) or best yet that Shireen be cured, live to adulthood, and become Jon's Queen thus finally resolving the Baratheon Targaryen rift AND fulfilling the promise of a union between Stark/Baratheon blood.

[Skeeter22]

I've never really thought about who Jon might end up with. I guess it's because I'm holding on to the hope that he and Dany won't survive the series. It's hard to imagine either of those characters in relationships with any of the most likely suspects. I can't really imagine them liking each other at all. Jon and Sansa together would be depressing and creepy, though I'd take it over SanSan. None of the characters in the series have very good romantic prospects.

[amandawoods]

I can see Jon and Sansa in a marriage that is awkward as hell in the beginning and grows into something like Ned and Cat.  I think that Jon not saying goodbye to Sansa or having any interaction with her is important.  It would be like theyre meeting for the first time for the readers.  I can't see Dany with anyone else or surviving the series actually. 

[Which Tyler]

Sansa marrying a decent Blackwood or Mallister sounds too good to be true, but if it did happen I'd be so happy.

I've just never been able to get the image of Queen Elizabeth the First out of my head when thinking about Sansa going forward.

 

I think she's got a very convenient marriage already, to an absent husband, which gives her a good claim on the Westerlands (once Cersei and kids are out of the way, possibly Lancel too) to go with the North, and possibilities at the Vale (once Sweetrobin's demise would leave only Harry in her way there IIRC) and the Riverlands (Edmure's days are surely numbered, whether or not he becomes a father, and I could easily see The Blackfish standing aside for Sansa and being her William Cecil). That convenient husband also means that she can reject the very premise of any suitors without causing any offence to anyone.

[FurryFury]

I'd definitely choose this option over any Sansa pairings (and it makes sense considering her history with men in the series). Frankly, I don't read these books for romance, and Martin sucks at it anyway (and isn't really interested in it, too).

[Hecate7]

Yeah, I can understand why many might find Sansa/Jon too "squicky," though of course those arguments go DOUBLE for Jon/Dany.

 

Frankly, I'd prefer if Jon could marry Margaery (assuming she survives though FOUR husbands might be a bit much) or best yet that Shireen be cured, live to adulthood, and become Jon's Queen thus finally resolving the Baratheon Targaryen rift AND fulfilling the promise of a union between Stark/Baratheon blood.

 

 

I had never considered a Jon/Shireen pairing. That's a pretty good idea, as long as Danaerys is dead. I don't find the Danaerys/Snow Aunt/nephew pairing all that problematic, because they're the same age and because they've never met, which means by all rights they would fall in love at first sight, not having been raised as brother and sister, and not knowing at first that they are related. If the twin motivations of ending the war and creating world peace, and intense love at first sight, cause the Targaryen law to be invoked, I don't mind. Otherwise it's gratuitous.

 

I'm not sure about Sansa/Jon--his red hair fetish could foreshadow a thing with Sansa, but since she's not red-haired anymore, maybe not. Considering it from the Sansa side of the table, I don't know that she'll live long enough for it to come up. Littlefinger's plan most likely involves marrying her for her claim, getting a child, disposing of her, and then marrying onto the Iron Throne. He is the Black Widower to Margaery's Black Widow.

 

I just realized that as Tyrion's widow, if Sansa is ever found innocent of, or pardoned for, Joffrey's murder, Sansa has a better claim to Casterly Rock than Cersei.

[Skeeter22]

Cersei has a better claim on Casterly Rock than either Tyrion or Sansa. Killing your father, no matter how big a dick he was, generally prevents you from inheriting his estate. Sansa, even if she is still married to Tyrion, is not a Lannister and has no claim. Winterfell didn't become Cat's when Ned died, and Lysa was only regent of the Vale.

I seriously doubt Littlefinger intends to kill Sansa as part of his master plan. He might realize she's a threat at some point, but I think all of his current plans involve keeping Sansa alive and under his thumb. I'm very certain that Sansa will outlive Littlefinger. I think Sansa is one of the characters with the best shot of surviving the series. I wouldn't be surprised if all the Stark children are still alive by the end of the series. If I had to pick one that might not make it, I'd put money on Arya, though her fan favorite status might protect her. I think Tyrion is a dead man walking, though he won't bite it until the last book. I don't think any of the main Lannisters will survive.

[Hecate7]

Winterfell didn't become Cat's when Ned died, because it became Robb's. If they had no children yet, Cat would still have inherited it, because Benjen can't and Brandon is dead.

 

I agree about Tyrion, but my money is on Arya for Last Man Standing, because she's Paris Martin's fave character and GRRM has already stated he won't ever kill Arya.

 

About the Stark children: I believe they share the fate of their wolves. Lady is dead, and Sansa is Alayne--I doubt she'll survive, actually, which is unfortunate to me because she's my favorite. Robb and Greywind are dead. Shaggydog has been gored by a unicorn, so he, Rickon, and Osha are probably barbecue by Book 6. Bran is a tree---I hope Summer survives, but if he does, it will mainly be as a wolf guarding that tree. Arya will never die, but she's been mostly absorbed into the Faceless Men, whatever that really means. Like Nymeria, she's run away. Nymeria is leading a giant pack in killing people across the countryside, which I think means that Arya will eventually lead the Faceless men, or lead some other organization like BWB or Second Sons.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Hecate7

[Holmbo]

I think she's got a very convenient marriage already, to an absent husband, which gives her a good claim on the Westerlands (once Cersei and kids are out of the way, possibly Lancel too) to go with the North, and possibilities at the Vale (once Sweetrobin's demise would leave only Harry in her way there IIRC) and the Riverlands (Edmure's days are surely numbered, whether or not he becomes a father, and I could easily see The Blackfish standing aside for Sansa and being her William Cecil). That convenient husband also means that she can reject the very premise of any suitors without causing any offence to anyone.

I could see that. Somehow I get the sense that Sansa's role in the books so far is similar to that of the Maiden of the seven gods.

The Maiden dances through the sky,

            she lives in every lover's sigh.

        Her smiles teach the birds to fly,

            and gives dreams to little children.

Throughout the books so far she's never really lost her innocence and her will to see the good in people. I don't know if it will last though. Her story could be about her growing out of the role of the maiden. But I could still see her keeping some of the qualities of the innocent unattainable woman, at least in public. And of course we all hope that she will teach a certain mockingjay to fly.

[Winnief]

Here's something I've thought about before regarding Sansa and Casterly Rock-she might not be eligible to inherit, but her children might be if they were conceived while she was married to Tyrion regardless of whether they were Tyrion's or not.  Hell, I could see Tyrion (dying of greyscale,) declaring a bastard child of Sansa's a legitimate Lannister just to spite his family and dead father by ensuring CR went to a non-Lannister.

 

It's an unlikely outcome I feel for a lot of reasons, but still there would be a poetic justice in having Tywin's evil plot to steal Winterfell and the North through that forced marriage actually be the way the Lannister's were dispossessed of their home.  

 

Alternatively if Jamie/Brienne ever had a child, (entirely possible,) that kid may well end up being entrusted to Tyrion and/or Sansa-and that child if legitimized would be heir to CR-or to Tarth.  

[BookEater]

Winterfell didn't become Cat's when Ned died, because it became Robb's. If they had no children yet, Cat would still have inherited it, because Benjen can't and Brandon is dead.

 

 

Actually, that's not accurate. From A Storm of Swords:

 

“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.” 

She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who

married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters,

all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest... it

might have been a Templeton, but...”

 

 

Notice neither Cat or Robb place Cat in the line of succession, because she has no Stark blood. If Ned had died with no children and Benjen couldn't be released/bought out of his NW vows, Winterfell would've likely gone to one of those Vale lordlings, not Catelyn. Even someone with watered down Stark blood would be more acceptable to the North than someone with none.

[charis]

If it's strictly a patrilineal succession (which it seems to be everywhere in Westeros but Dorne), you're looking at Ned, Ned's sons, Benjen (had he not joined the Watch), and then you go back up to Rickard and look for children of his brothers (if applicable), etc., etc. -- and only when that's exhausted do you even consider the female lines.  Girls are SOL as far as inheritance -- the only place they might end up with some power is in roles similar to Cersei's or Lysa's as regent, and that's a temporally-limited spot.

[Skeeter22]

Sansa and Arya would come before Benjen, just like Cersei inherited Casterley Rock instead of Kevan. I think it's only the Targs who place the female line after all possible male heirs.

I wonder if Littlefinger won't try to push Sansa's possible claim on Riverrun at some point. If Edmure dies, and he probably will, the Stark children would be in line after his child with Roslin. Littlefinger could probably convince a lot of people in the Riverlands that a Stark in Riverrun would be preferable to a Frey.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Skeeter22

[Winnief]

 

I wonder if Littlefinger won't try to push Sansa's possible claim on Riverrun at some point. If Edmure dies, and he probably will, the Stark children would be in line after his child with Roslin. Littlefinger could probably convince a lot of people in the Riverlands that a Stark in Riverrun would be preferable to a Frey.

 

Particularly if something happened to that Frey/Tully child.  It wouldn't be too hard to arrange an 'accident' for poor Roslin.  If Littlefinger didn't do it, then Emmon Frey or Genna probably would.  I for one will be very interested to see if Roslin's pregnancy ever comes up on the show.  

[mac123x]

Sansa and Arya would come before Benjen, just like Cersei inherited Casterley Rock instead of Kevan. I think it's only the Targs who place the female line after all possible male heirs.

 

I think they (generally, not Targs or Dorne) follow male-preference primogeniture: basically all sons are ahead of all daughters, who are ahead of uncles.  It's why Alys Karstark was her brother's heir before her uncles could claim Karhold. 

 

It's the same system that in real life had Elizabeth II inherit the throne after George VI died, instead of his younger brother.

[Holmbo]

I think that it's male-preference primogeniture for everyone except Dorne and the iron throne. For the throne it's all male claimants before they go to the daughters. And for Dorne the first born inherits regardless of gender.

[SeanC]

If it's strictly a patrilineal succession (which it seems to be everywhere in Westeros but Dorne)

It's not.  There appear to be four systems of inheritance in Westeros:

 

1.  Andal/First Men Succession, which governs all of the Seven Kingdoms apart from Dorne, and is male-preference primogeniture.  In this system, male children come before female children, at which point you go to uncles/aunts/cousins in the same order.  So, under this succession law, the succession to Riverrun at the start of the series is:

 

1.  Edmure

2.  Catelyn

3.  Robb

4.  Bran

5.  Rickon

6.  Sansa

7.  Arya

8.  Lysa

9.  Robert Arryn

10.  The Blackfish

 

2.  Dornish Succession, which is absolute primogeniture, children by birth order.  The Tully succession under this system would look like this:

 

1.  Catelyn

2.  Robb

3.  Sansa

4.  Arya

5.  Bran

6.  Rickon

7.  Lysa

8.  Robert Arryn

9.  Edmure

10.  The Blackfish

 

3.  Targaryen Succession, which is the equivalent of the Pauline Law of Russia, placing male lines before female lines.  Under this law, Tully succession would look like this:

 

1.  Edmure

2.  The Blackfish

3.  Catelyn

4.  Robb

5.  Bran

6.  Rickon

7.  Sansa

8.  Arya

9.  Lysa

10.  Robert Arryn

 

There's also (and this is rarely brought up) the Ironborn, who appear to believe that women don't inherit under any circumstances, if most people's reactions to Asha are anything to go by.

[Winnief]

Since the Riverlands succession is probably done via Andal/First Men succession, then that would technically put Bran and Rickon ahead of Sansa if anything happens to Edmure and Roslin.  Realistically though, Bran's busy becoming a greenseer and the North ain't giving up Rickon as their last male Stark heir, then Sansa becomes the most plausible option to rule Riverrun.   For that matter even under Targaryen succession, while Blackfish comes before Sansa, he's an older guy unlikely to marry (probably gay) so Sansa would be his most probable heir.  The fact she's got the Tully features helps.  

 

And I think it's definitely safe to assume that the Riverlands don't follow Iron Born rules regarding inheritance.  Asha might not like the green lands but her rights would have been much better protected if she's been born among them.  Note how Alys Karstark in the North was targeted by her uncles because she came before them in the line of succession according to Northern custom.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Winnief

[patchwork]

If Rickon (Bran stays a tree) is already ruling Winterfell by the time the Riverlands gets to the point of looking for a new heir couldn't he inherit in name but appoint Sansa to rule there in his stead or pass it on to her like an unwanted gift? 

[Brn2bwild]

I'm reading rumors that a Winds of Winter book launch has been scheduled for April 2015.  Dare we hope there's truth to them?  

[WearyTraveler]

I'm reading rumors that a Winds of Winter book launch has been scheduled for April 2015.  Dare we hope there's truth to them?  

 

From the article: "news site Book Keep Library has reported that the Winds of Winter release date is on April 2015 and that George R.R. Martin is allegedly contractually obligated to finish the book by mid 2015."

 

How reliable is Book Keep Library? Since that seems to be the original source for the date, their veracity and accuracy in the past would tell us if we dare hope.

 

I loved the "contractually obligated" bit, as I have always thought that the publishing industry could not be so loose with their standards, even with a money maker writer.  A business needs to be able to predict some outcomes, or at least plan with a degree of certainty, particularly a business that has seen its margins and sales decline with the advent of eReaders and online piracy.  If they have an author that is a sure money maker, they might bend their rules a little, but that has a cost (sales not made) and the business can't sustain that cost indefinitely.

[Brn2bwild]

From his blog, it sounds like Martin has arranged to have a big space to write during the fall months.  Whether that is to "finish up" the book or just to advance it is unclear.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Brn2bwild

[SeanC]

Martin isn't acting like somebody who's that close to finishing, so I doubt that's true (particularly as, in order to make an April release, it would have to be done around the New Year, based on the turnaround for ADWD).

[WearyTraveler]

I can't find a website with the name Book Keep Library, which is the supposed source of the date reported in that article.  I left a comment asking them for a link, but I haven't had an answer yet.  My guess is they published a bogus article to get clicks, to get people to read their other linked articles and to get people to subscribe/follow.

 

Cheap stunt.
 

[GreyBunny]

I really don't think TWOW is coming out anytime soon, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't appear until 2016.  As noted above, Martin isn't acting like someone who is nearly done.  He's too prickly about it.

 

Poor Sansa, I'd like to see her end up with Willas, or if she and Tyrion meet again decide that they care about each other after all.  Hell, I wouldn't mind if she married Jaime, assuming he survives Stoneheart.  I don't want to see Jon/Sansa.  Even though they're only cousins, they have zero chemistry and she is already in the line to inherit the North, she doesn't need to marry Jon.  Jon is half Stark so she wouldn't need to marry him to solidify a Stark/Targ alliance should Jon end up on the Iron Throne.

~~~

I know this goes back a ways, but I don't think Targaryens are any more resistant to disease than anyone else.  That's just the bullshit some of them believe because they think they're better than everyone else.  Plenty of Targs have been wiped out by disease (something Dany would know this if she bothered to ask Barristan or another credible source about the history of her family).  Dany herself has been sick, at the end of book 5 she had diarrhea and was puking her guts out in a field in the middle of nowhere. 

I also don't think Tyrion has greyscale, I think the significance of his falling into the river was so JonCon could get greyscale and possibly be the Patient Zero for a plague in Westeros.  (Also to show what a coward Aegon is.  If Aegon was any sort of a hero he would have rescued Tyrion from the dangerous waters himself instead of ordering his father-figure to do it). 

 

Shireen survived because the childhood version is less severe than the adult versions, plus she had access to maesters and medications that could help her, unlike the wildlings whose medical care would be substantially more primitive. 

[Hecate7]

Another obstacle to Jon/Sansa to me would be Arya. I think she'd hate the idea of Jon going for Sansa. Not saying that she'd hurt either of them over it or that she wants Jon for herself, I just think she'd be irritated and would go back to all of the times she felt Sansa was stupid about something or times she was bitchy with/about Jon. It would grate on her nerves I think and I can't see her being happy about it.

 

Why would this be an obstacle? Why does Arya have to be happy about it? What's it got to do with her anyway? It's not as if she's going to live with them, or even visit.

 

In this world, if a man wants to marry, he does, and he doesn't even care if the bride is happy about it, let alone the estranged younger sister of the bride, whom no one has seen in years. Were the younger sisters of Talisa or Jeyne polled on their acceptance of the bridegroom? Did Myrcella get a vote on whether Joffrey or Tommen married Margaery Tyrell? Did Cersei and Jaime ask Tyrion his opinion before beginning their affair? Did Tyrion ask Cersei if it was ok to bring Shae to King's Landing?

 

Did Ned Stark make sure Lysa was completely comfortable with the arrangement, before he wed Cat? Would he have asked Lyanna's opinion? This is not a world in which Jon Snow or Sansa would ever ask permission of Bran, Arya, or Rickon before marrying someone.

 

Nobody asked Arya about her OWN marriage to Ramsey Bolton, so I don't think anyone will inquire as to her approval of someone else's marriage.

[Avaleigh]

Lol, I guess "obstacle" wasn't the right word as it wasn't my intention to imply or suggest that a couple would need the permission of a sibling in order to wed.

By obstacle I guess I meant that I could see Arya not being happy about the situation putting a damper on on that potential union particularly for Jon. I can't explain why exactly but I feel like it would matter to both Sansa and Jon if the only other person* who really remembers the happier days at Winterfell ended up openly disapproving of or feeling hurt by it or say giving the opinion that Ned and Catelyn would both have likely had objections. I feel like that wouldn't be something that either character would be able to easily brush off especially Jon.

All that being said, I have my doubts as to Arya being around them if this even ends up happening. I definitely see reunions happening for the Starks and I don't think any more Starks are marked for death, but I still see Arya basically being a loner for life or at least somebody who won't be content to stay in one place for long, not even Winterfell. I could see it maybe even being a situation where the marriage happens after Arya chooses to go off on her own again.

*Obviously Bran remembers too but since I don't think he's leaving the cave I don't really ever see him directly interacting with his siblings again. I'm not counting weirwood interaction at this point just based on

how it has been with Theon so far.