All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[txhorns79]

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One of the sad things about David was that I don't think he was aware of how much Mark disliked him. I think he would have been crushed to hear that Mark felt so much distance from his dad. I think David always just attributed Mark not visiting or calling that much to him being busy in med school/residency/marriage. I think he went to his grave secure that he and his son had a good relationship and he was proud of his son. It's good that Mark finally got to a place where he was the loving son David always thought he was.

I think David recognized there was a lot of distance between he and Mark.  Mark's mother mentions it a few different times before she died, and the way Mark and his father interact in Fathers and Sons shows a lot of hostility boiling under the surface.  I like how the two reconciled before David died, but that was what made that storyline moving.   

[Dr.OO7]

13 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

By season 7 they just made him All Asshole All the Time. Ugh. 

The few times we even saw him.

[Bastet]

I like that Mark recognized the teen version of himself in Rachel and the adult version in his dad; he grew up resentful of his dad's career-induced reduced availability - physical and emotional - in his life, and now Rachel feels the same about his.  He tells her he'd take back every negative thought/moment about his dad if he could, but he can't, and it's okay.  It was a wonderful thing to leave her with - she, as a teen, isn't going to magically transform into middle-aged awareness (at least on this show, thank gods), but when she gets older and starts feeling like shit about their relationship, she'll remember it, and know he understood it from both sides.  That you have to grow up to get it, and he'll be gone by the time she does, but he died knowing.  She won't be crippled by the "if only"s; she'll have the same wish he did, but also know she can't change it, and that's okay.  (That won't be an easy process, certainly, but he set her up to deal with it as best as anyone can.)

[RedbirdNelly]

9 hours ago, Bastet said:

I like that Mark recognized the teen version of himself in Rachel and the adult version in his dad; he grew up resentful of his dad's career-induced reduced availability - physical and emotional - in his life, and now Rachel feels the same about his.  He tells her he'd take back every negative thought/moment about his dad if he could, but he can't, and it's okay.  It was a wonderful thing to leave her with - she, as a teen, isn't going to magically transform into middle-aged awareness (at least on this show, thank gods), but when she gets older and starts feeling like shit about their relationship, she'll remember it, and know he understood it from both sides.  That you have to grow up to get it, and he'll be gone by the time she does, but he died knowing.  She won't be crippled by the "if only"s; she'll have the same wish he did, but also know she can't change it, and that's okay.  (That won't be an easy process, certainly, but he set her up to deal with it as best as anyone can.)

agree with all of this. Mark's interactions with Rachel right before he died were wonderful, heartbreaking but so wonderful. He gave her a gift trying to get that point across. One of those times where I almost feel I'm talking about real people as opposed to made up characters. . .

[Growsonwalls]

11 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think David recognized there was a lot of distance between he and Mark.  Mark's mother mentions it a few different times before she died, and the way Mark and his father interact in Fathers and Sons shows a lot of hostility boiling under the surface.  I like how the two reconciled before David died, but that was what made that storyline moving.   

I don't think David ever fathomed the idea that Mark thought that David didn't love Mark. I think what made the storyline so touching was that you saw things from David's side and I can see why he thought he did all the right things as a parent. He wasn't perfect, but he tried hard to be a good husband, a good father, supportive of his son's career goals, and he always loved his son. As Doug pointed out in Fathers and Sons, David was never abusive, he never mistreated his mom, he was never a shitty dad. David had to work hard but Mark later found out that his father passed on a promotion to spend more time at home with Mark. 

It was just an incredibly well-done storyline, to see Mark finally understand all the things his father had done and continued to do for him even as he was dying of cancer. 

As for Rachel, I hated that whole ecstasy storyline but in the series finale when Dr. Carter called her "Dr. Greene" and she ran into the ER, as diligent and responsible as Mark had been, there was a lump in my throat. 

[starri]

On 9/25/2018 at 10:29 AM, Growsonwalls said:

As for Rachel, I hated that whole ecstasy storyline but in the series finale when Dr. Carter called her "Dr. Greene" and she ran into the ER, as diligent and responsible as Mark had been, there was a lump in my throat. 

That was my second favorite part of the episode.  My favorite part was the way Frank's face lit up when he recognized her.

[Heathen]

Somebody tell me how Tony Gates and Katey Alvaro, to name two, got away with half the crap they did. Especially Gates! I'm not a physician, but I'd have written him up for insubordination his first week! 

[RedbirdNelly]

19 hours ago, starri said:

That was my second favorite part of the episode.  My favorite part was the way Frank's face lit up when he recognized her.

I had the exact same reaction to Frank's face. awesome acting. I read so much more than "hey, it's Rachel grown up." It was a happy/sad remembrance of Mark.

[txhorns79]

I'm watching Season 5, and Carter really is the worst.  He's a terrible teacher, and eager to blame everyone except himself for his failures.   Blech. 

[Growsonwalls]

49 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm watching Season 5, and Carter really is the worst.  He's a terrible teacher, and eager to blame everyone except himself for his failures.   Blech. 

Think the poor chemistry between Carter and Lucy (NW and Kellie Martin) unfortunately spilled over to the show. Actors with more chemistry could have made Carter seem like less of a douchebag and Lucy less annoying. But almost every scene of them together gave off a negative vibe, which made Carter look bad as a person because he really was supposed to be the grown up teacher in that relationship. And he instead whines like a petulant child about having to teach Lucy.

[WendyCR72]

I am biased but I had no issue with Carter treating Lucy as he did because she annoyted the ever-loving crap out of me. If I had to teach her, I'd be grumpy, too.

[txhorns79]

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I am biased but I had no issue with Carter treating Lucy as he did because she annoyted the ever-loving crap out of me. If I had to teach her, I'd be grumpy, too.

I would say she's annoying and he's an a-hole.  There is this one moment when Carter is dating Julie Bowen, they have a date where Carter is going to help her move a relative's boat to dry dock.  As they are getting the boat ready to go, Carter decides he has to help find the father of a young girl with a rare blood type (something no one has asked him to do) and walks off after giving Julie Bowen this smirk that makes me just want her to punch him in his stupid smirking face.  And yet she somehow is still with him in the next episode.    

[Growsonwalls]

Just watched "Such Sweet Sorrow." Although I loved it that George Clooney showed up in the final scene and thus Carol and Doug got that happily-ever-after scene that viewers all longed for, I thought that like George Clooney's exit the writers did a poor job saying goodbye to such a beloved touchstone character. Actually even though I hated the way Clooney was written out Doug did have two nice goodbye scenes with Carol and Mark.

But Carol? I would have liked her to say a proper goodbye to Mark, Carter, Haleh, and all the characters she's been close to for so many years. Hell, even Weaver. I get that it was a spur of the moment decision on her part but her running out of the hospital and only explaining herself to Luka was IMO not very Carol. She's known Luka for a few months and honestly she didn't even like him that much. If you compare how she is with Luka with how she was with Doug there's absolutely no comparison. Even when she and Doug were not together romantically they were always working side by side, laughing and having fun. Also, she's known Mark and the rest of the ER staff for years. There could have been just a scene or two (maybe in the lounge) where she tells them why she's leaving.

As for the rest of the episode I thought it was unfair that Abby got off with a slap to the wrist for deciding to treat a patient all by herself and never having Malucci look at her, while Malucci got reamed by Corday for being a shitty doctor. Both of them are equally irresponsible. And I felt horrible for Carter. I wanted to bitch-slap Weaver for screaming at the top of her lungs at him.

Anyway as for Clooney, it was SO good to hear that giggle/chuckle again. And Carol was so dour and humorless without Doug. She sees him and within seconds she's giggling. They really did need each other and as I said it was wonderful that Clooney came back to do this. My ONLY wish is that I wish Carol had taken the twins on the plane with her. I don't get why she didn't -- women travel with young children all the time. That way the final scene could have been Doug seeing Kate and Tess and Carol. That would have been so awesome. 

[doodlebug]

I think TPTB wanted the grand romantic scenes with Carol running through the airport, getting on the plane as the doors closed and then the big finale with the sweeping vista as Carol goes to the door, sees Doug on the dock and runs across the expanse of lawn to him.  The twins were only 6 months old at that point, not mobile, nonverbal. Carol running through all these scenes trying to push a stroller full of twins would’ve looked silly, not romantic.  And, can you imagine the frustration of a director trying to film those prolonged shots with a couple of uncooperative babies? Finally, the entire thing was filmed on location in secret.  Hiring a set of twins would’ve required letting a whole other group of people into the circle and greatly increase the odds of spoiling it.

[txhorns79]

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As for the rest of the episode I thought it was unfair that Abby got off with a slap to the wrist for deciding to treat a patient all by herself and never having Malucci look at her, while Malucci got reamed by Corday for being a shitty doctor. Both of them are equally irresponsible. And I felt horrible for Carter. I wanted to bitch-slap Weaver for screaming at the top of her lungs at him.

I'll just say that Carter is the same person who purposefully and willfully ignored a DNR order for one patient because he decided that patient would be the perfect organ donor for a different patient.  That just infuriated me, and I hated that the show treated that kind of behavior as the "right" decision to be made in that type of circumstance.  He deserves all the yelling forever.

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I'll just say that Carter is the same person who purposefully and willfully ignored a DNR order for one patient because he decided that patient would be the perfect organ donor for a different patient.  That just infuriated me, and I hated that the show treated that kind of behavior as the "right" decision to be made in that type of circumstance.  He deserves all the yelling forever.

I agree, except that every single character has done the same on this show and, virtually every time, the show implied that it was somehow noble and right.  Remember when Abby's old prof showed up with a terminal disease and a DNR and she ignored it and performed a tracheotomy on him because she felt he was giving up too soon despite the fact she hadn't seen him in years?

As a medical professional, I loved this show but I was always appalled at the arrogant 'I know better' attitudes we often saw from the characters.

[Growsonwalls]

Just saw the S6 finale. I have to admit I cried at the final shot of Carter on the plane to Atlanta and then the pan to Benton sitting right next to him. The way the writers developed their relationship beautifully over 6 seasons to the point where you can totally believe that Benton would drop everything to take Carter to rehab. Sad thing is, if the situation were reversed I'm not even sure if Carter would go that far for Benton. I guess that's the thing with father-son relationships (which Benton/Carter really were) -- the parent is always prepared to make more sacrifices than the child. I actually loved Benton during the whole intervention, from his warning to the team: "Carter can be stubborn, he might walk out," to Benton taking a hit from Carter, to him hugging Carter, to him taking Carter to rehab. 

The storyline with Luka and the pregnant girl who refused to get a C-section to save her baby was heartbreaking. 

I think S6 was the last season I watched religiously. 

[Ceindreadh]

7 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Just watched "Such Sweet Sorrow." (snip)

As for the rest of the episode I thought it was unfair that Abby got off with a slap to the wrist for deciding to treat a patient all by herself and never having Malucci look at her, while Malucci got reamed by Corday for being a shitty doctor. Both of them are equally irresponsible. And I felt horrible for Carter. I wanted to bitch-slap Weaver for screaming at the top of her lungs at him.

 

Much as I loved Malucci and loathe Abby (although I didn't hate her so much at this point in the show), he was the resident while Abby was just a med student.  Yes, Abby should have made sure she had supervision, but Malucci was the one who signed off on the patient without checking up on Abby's work. 

He deserved to be reamed for that mistake but it should have been *his* supervisor i.e. Kerry doing it, and not Corday. 

[txhorns79]

In watching The Storm, I really had forgotten just how reckless and selfish Doug was in that whole situation.  He immediately ignored Kerry and Mark's requirement that they co-sign orders on narcotics, putting both their jobs in jeopardy.  He then kept information from Carol that put she, her job and the Clinic in jeopardy.  I do get they wanted to make Doug's departure into an event, and there is something to be said by Doug being done in by one of his "I don't play by the rules" type stunts, but wow. 

Edited October 1, 2018 by txhorns79

[Dr.OO7]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

In watching The Storm, I really had forgotten just how reckless and selfish Doug was in that whole situation.  He immediately ignored Kerry and Mark's requirement that they co-sign orders on narcotics, putting both their jobs in jeopardy.  He then kept information from Carol that put she, her job and the Clinic in jeopardy.  I do get they wanted to make Doug's departure into an event, and there is something to be said by Doug being done in by one of his "I don't play by the rules" type stunts, but wow. 

That's one of the many reasons that story was awful. Doug would never have jeopardized others like that.

[txhorns79]

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That's one of the many reasons that story was awful. Doug would never have jeopardized others like that.

In fairness, he jeopardized the entire hospital like an episode before that when he broke protocol on the double blind study they were doing to give the ADL kid pain medication.  Also, when he detoxed the baby in secret, he was darn lucky the procedure worked.  If it hadn't, the consequences could have been disastrous for himself, Carol, along with Mark, Kerry and the hospital administration.  

On a positive note, in a later episode, Carol does rightly call out Kerry for skating the rules when it suits Kerry, when Kerry has overridden the DNR order for a patient Kerry believed was her mother.  However, the writers again seem to make the argument that a doctor doesn't have to honor a DNR if the doctor has a self-serving reason to make the call.  I'll also say that I thought the scene at the end of that episode where Kerry realizes the woman is not her mother, but stays with her and pretends to be the woman's dead daughter to give the woman some comfort as the woman is dying is very well done.      

[Heathen]

6 hours ago, Camille said:

That's one of the many reasons that story was awful. Doug would never have jeopardized others like that.

Doug frequently jeopardized others! 

[Growsonwalls]

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

In watching The Storm, I really had forgotten just how reckless and selfish Doug was in that whole situation.  He immediately ignored Kerry and Mark's requirement that they co-sign orders on narcotics, putting both their jobs in jeopardy.  He then kept information from Carol that put she, her job and the Clinic in jeopardy.  I do get they wanted to make Doug's departure into an event, and there is something to be said by Doug being done in by one of his "I don't play by the rules" type stunts, but wow. 

 

The storyline was awful because George Clooney/Doug was one of the most beloved characters on the show and in the final episodes he is completely selfish and back to square one. His actions in the last three episodes are more Season 1 Doug than Season 5 Doug. The writers did such a great job making Doug mature over the 5 seasons. But we're to believe that after putting the jobs of his gf and friends at risk, he peaces out to Seattle without a second thought, and doesn't even come back when he finds out Carol's pregnant and was a negligent father. Gah, sometimes I think they should have killed off Doug with a heroic death. We would have cried buckets but there wouldn't have been the character assassination that the writers did. 

ER is really lucky George Clooney was willing to come back not just for Carol's departure but also in the final season, so that our last memories of him aren;t his totally shitty behavior in Choosing Joi/The Storm. Because if that had been the last we ever saw of Doug it would have been a horrible exit for a beloved character. 

Instead happily our last memories of Doug are in "Old Times." 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Heathen]

8 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

The storyline was awful because George Clooney/Doug was one of the most beloved characters on the show and in the final episodes he is completely selfish and back to square one. His actions in the last three episodes are more Season 1 Doug than Season 5 Doug. The writers did such a great job making Doug mature over the 5 seasons. But we're to believe that after putting the jobs of his gf and friends at risk, he peaces out to Seattle without a second thought, and doesn't even come back when he finds out Carol's pregnant and was a negligent father. Gah, sometimes I think they should have killed off Doug with a heroic death. We would have cried buckets but there wouldn't have been the character assassination that the writers did. 

ER is really lucky George Clooney was willing to come back not just for Carol's departure but also in the final season, so that our last memories of him aren;t his totally shitty behavior in Choosing Joi/The Storm. Because if that had been the last we ever saw of Doug it would have been a horrible exit for a beloved character. 

Instead happily our last memories of Doug are in "Old Times." 

 

Not to mention that he went from content, hardworking, conscientious Doug in one episode, to moody, selfish, self-absorbed Doug in the very next. There was no transition. Even at the time, I wondered why the writing was so poor. 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Heathen

[Growsonwalls]

3 minutes ago, Heathen said:

Not to mention that he went from content, hardworking, conscientious Doug in one episode, to moody, selfish, self-absorbed Doug in the next. Even at the time, I wondered why the writing was so poor. 

Yeah one of the funnier themes of Season 5 was that once Doug got his attending position he became an extremely top-down manager, sending memos that he had to sign off on all the charts and bossing people around. It was actually cute to see the rebel become the manager. And the peds section of the ER became very busy and Doug was doing a great job running a tight ship. Then he throws everything away in the most reckless way possible.

I think I mentioned this before but the best thing would have been for him to get some opportunity working with AIDS-stricken children in Africa for a year. Something that had him off the show but wasn't total character assassination. 

Actually come to think of it a lot of Season 5 was poorly written and actors acted out of character. For instance would Carter have gotten all up in Lucy's business about Ritalin? Would the ER actually have hired Amanda Lee to be chief attending physician? 

[debraran]

11 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Yeah one of the funnier themes of Season 5 was that once Doug got his attending position he became an extremely top-down manager, sending memos that he had to sign off on all the charts and bossing people around. It was actually cute to see the rebel become the manager. And the peds section of the ER became very busy and Doug was doing a great job running a tight ship. Then he throws everything away in the most reckless way possible.

I think I mentioned this before but the best thing would have been for him to get some opportunity working with AIDS-stricken children in Africa for a year. Something that had him off the show but wasn't total character assassination. 

Actually come to think of it a lot of Season 5 was poorly written and actors acted out of character. For instance would Carter have gotten all up in Lucy's business about Ritalin? Would the ER actually have hired Amanda Lee to be chief attending physician? 

I agree, I said Doctor's without Borders because you can do 9 months to a year, but whether in Africa or another country in need, that would have him not being a cad and they wouldn't have to fax updates of their lives on the work computer. Seems like such a good idea, I wonder why they didn't want to do it.

The Dr Lee was strange, doctor's have done it but not in a big hospital like that to my knowledge but usually local clinics or even dentists have been found to not have real diplomas. The Ritalin thing was someones bias against using pills thinking they were for helping with tests, Dr Carter shouldn't be that dumb, they could have used it to show both sides.

Edited October 2, 2018 by debraran

[txhorns79]

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The Dr Lee was strange, doctor's have done it but not in a big hospital like that to my knowledge but usually local clinics or even dentists have been found to not have real diplomas.

The storyline was very strange.  She's both an uber-competent fabulist who faked her way through a residency program and being the associate chief of an ER in Atlanta, while simultaneously being a complete nut job who immediately begins fixating romantically on a colleague in the creepiest of ways, and who doesn't know any better than to tell easily verifiable lies that will fall apart under mild scrutiny and blow up what appears to be a very long term scam. 

Edited October 2, 2018 by txhorns79

[Growsonwalls]

3 hours ago, debraran said:

I agree, I said Doctor's without Borders because you can do 9 months to a year, but whether in Africa or another country in need, that would have him not being a cad and they wouldn't have to fax updates of their lives on the work computer. Seems like such a good idea, I wonder why they didn't want to do it.

The Dr Lee was strange, doctor's have done it but not in a big hospital like that to my knowledge but usually local clinics or even dentists have been found to not have real diplomas. The Ritalin thing was someones bias against using pills thinking they were for helping with tests, Dr Carter shouldn't be that dumb, they could have used it to show both sides.

Another thing that annoyed me about Doug's storyline was they also managed to do some character assassination on Carol. I mean she spent all of season 5 and 6 like this:

Carol: "The girls need their father."

Mark: "Then work something out with Doug."

Carol: "I told him not to come. But I'm pissed that he didn't come even though I insisted that he not come."

A few episodes later ...

Carol: "It's so hard raising two girls alone."

Mark: "Then work something out with Doug."

Carol: dates Luka ...

It just went on and on and at some point you had to blame Carol for her whininess and the fact that she couldn't be an adult about the situation with the twins, custody and Doug. So not only did the shitty writing make Doug a jerk, it also made Carol backtrack all the way back to the Carol who swallowed barbituates. She was so miserable and depressed in her final season and so unwilling to be pro-active about her problems.

[doodlebug]

14 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Another thing that annoyed me about Doug's storyline was they also managed to do some character assassination on Carol. I mean she spent all of season 5 and 6 like this:

Carol: "The girls need their father."

Mark: "Then work something out with Doug."

Carol: "I told him not to come. But I'm pissed that he didn't come even though I insisted that he not come."

A few episodes later ...

Carol: "It's so hard raising two girls alone."

Mark: "Then work something out with Doug."

Carol: dates Luka ...

It just went on and on and at some point you had to blame Carol for her whininess and the fact that she couldn't be an adult about the situation with the twins, custody and Doug. So not only did the shitty writing make Doug a jerk, it also made Carol backtrack all the way back to the Carol who swallowed barbituates. She was so miserable and depressed in her final season and so unwilling to be pro-active about her problems.

TPTB made both Carol and Doug look like idiots in Season 5-6.  After spending 5 years, showing us their problems and letting us see them work through them to come to a stable relationship; they blew it all apart for no good reason.  If you recall, Carol's pregnancy was PLANNED.  They talked about it, both were ready for kids, and she stopped her birth control and they were trying.  Then, he leaves, she discovers she's pregnant and suddenly, it's a huge surprise, she doesn't know what to do, she cannot possibly ask him to be there for the children they decided to have TOGETHER!  Then, she behaves like an immature teenager, 'I wanted him to stay for ME, not for the babies'.  What the he**?!!!  The kids, that they both CHOSE to bring into the world don't deserve a father to be present in their lives unless he proves he cares more about their mother than them?  What kind of selfish, screwed-up thinking is that?  So very childish and so very out of character.

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

TPTB made both Carol and Doug look like idiots in Season 5-6.  After spending 5 years, showing us their problems and letting us see them work through them to come to a stable relationship; they blew it all apart for no good reason.  If you recall, Carol's pregnancy was PLANNED.  They talked about it, both were ready for kids, and she stopped her birth control and they were trying.  Then, he leaves, she discovers she's pregnant and suddenly, it's a huge surprise, she doesn't know what to do, she cannot possibly ask him to be there for the children they decided to have TOGETHER!  Then, she behaves like an immature teenager, 'I wanted him to stay for ME, not for the babies'.  What the he**?!!!  The kids, that they both CHOSE to bring into the world don't deserve a father to be present in their lives unless he proves he cares more about their mother than them?  What kind of selfish, screwed-up thinking is that?  So very childish and so very out of character.

It was also out of character for Carol and Doug to be incommunicado throughout the pregnancy/birth storyline. I mean from Season 1 we saw that even when they were not dating, when they were not on good terms, they always cared about each other on a human level and so they always communicated. Carol knew what was going on in Doug's life and Doug knew what was happening in Carol's. But then Carol has twins but because of "pride" she doesn't want Doug to be part of the twins' life, she doesn't want to talk to him about anything, and she decides that the best way for the twins to have a father figure is to date Luka? What the hell? As you pointed out, so out of character.

It's kind of nuts that of all the main characters of ER only Mark got a proper sendoff. His death was heartbreaking but at least it gave the viewers a chance to appreciate him and say goodbye to him. The others were all over the place. Peter had to quit his job because he perjured himself on the witness stand to get full custody of Reese. Romano got crushed by a chopper. Kerry peaces out and goes into television in Miami. Carter ... his character died a slow death in terms of storylines. Susan was so irrelevant by the time she was written off we barely cared. And Abby has to leave town because of the embarrassment caused by her having a drunken one-night stand with her boss ... while Luka is in Croatia because his father died.

[Heathen]

On 10/2/2018 at 12:00 PM, Growsonwalls said:

It's kind of nuts that of all the main characters of ER only Mark got a proper sendoff. His death was heartbreaking but at least it gave the viewers a chance to appreciate him and say goodbye to him. The others were all over the place. Peter had to quit his job because he perjured himself on the witness stand to get full custody of Reese. Romano got crushed by a chopper. Kerry peaces out and goes into television in Miami. Carter ... his character died a slow death in terms of storylines. Susan was so irrelevant by the time she was written off we barely cared. And Abby has to leave town because of the embarrassment caused by her having a drunken one-night stand with her boss ... while Luka is in Croatia because his father died.

The Peter Benton, Lying Liar and Kerry Weaver, TV Reporter storylines were as absurd as Chopper v. Romano. I'm still annoyed that the writers refused to give any of those characters -- ethical, principled doctors who were devoted to medicine and their careers -- a better sendoff. They should have given Benton a position at Northwestern, where he ended up anyway, that would have allowed him to become Reese's custodial parent (another inane storyline). Kerry should have been appointed to run a string of nonprofit clinics or given a posting worthy of her talents IN CHICAGO, after the whole Weaver v. Lopez family plot. 

In the first episode in which Romano appeared, Benton (I think) comments that he'd never met Romano because "the man is in Europe ten months out of the year." Why, oh why, didn't the writers just send Romano back to Europe instead of inflicting helicopters on the poor man? Surely they could have come up with another bus or train crash to fill the week's mass casualty need. 

[Peace 47]

1 hour ago, Heathen said:

Why, oh why, didn't the writers just send Romano back to Europe instead of inflicting helicopters on the poor man?

It still blows my mind that it is helicopters, plural. I agree that it was unsatisfying storytelling that Peter lied so egregiously, then was backed into a corner on resigning.  He was an ethical person, as you said, perhaps the most ethical character on the show, and it was a slightly off-putting way for him to slink away on a lie.

The one good thing about the “revenge of the ‘copter” episode was the Susan/ Chuck storyline in it, but they messed that up eventually, too.

Susan was such a dud during her return, which is a shame because I loved Susan during her first run, and she was actually the reason I started watching the show.  I’m actually super, super squeamish, to the point that I would get faint in school and nearly pass out just when we discussed health/ blood matters.  But I started watching ER for some reason when I was like 12 while getting ready for bed on Thursdays (and switching off at the really gory stuff, which was like every 5 minutes, lol), and Susan’s storyline really struck a chord with me:  having to take care of her niece (and how much she loved her niece—it broke my heart when her sister took her away), how Mark was pretty much in love with her, her struggles with Kerry (which I thought the show portrayed in a pretty balanced way).  Not the producers’ fault that Sherry opted to leave, though.  But they shouldn’t have brought her back if they weren’t going to do something meaningful with Mark or with Carter or heck, just give her a something more with Chuck, or a good friendship with Abby or anything.

[BigBeagle]

2 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

The one good thing about the “revenge of the ‘copter” episode was the Susan/ Chuck storyline in it, but they messed that up eventually, too.

 

Oh, yeah ... I can stomach Return of the Evil Copter because Sherry Stringfield just acted the hell out of that episode. And I even liked Donal Logue.

CHUCK: "They brought their own nurse and that bitch wouldn't let me ride."

SUSAN: "That bitch saved your life!"

Of course, TPTB had to screw up even that semi-sweet relationship.

[Heathen]

5 hours ago, BigBeagle said:

Oh, yeah ... I can stomach Return of the Evil Copter because Sherry Stringfield just acted the hell out of that episode. And I even liked Donal Logue.

CHUCK: "They brought their own nurse and that bitch wouldn't let me ride."

SUSAN: "That bitch saved your life!"

Of course, TPTB had to screw up even that semi-sweet relationship.

I couldn't stand Donal Logue! I wish the writers had given Susan her equal -- some polished, neat, intelligent guy instead of a guy who I'm sure was intelligent but looked like he probably smelled bad, whom she met and married during a drunken weekend in Las Vegas.  The entire Susan-Chuck plot felt like the writers were just trying really hard to give Susan a life. 

Speaking of Chopper v. Romano Part II, where was flight nurse Chuck when the other nurse wouldn't let him fly, and he was nowhere to be seen when ill-fated nurse and Neela were seen waving goodbye to Chopper? Was Chuck hanging off the edge of the roof by his fingertips? Bad writing, writers. 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Heathen
To change "flight nurse" to just "guy" -- I have nothing against flight nurses, just Chuck Martin

[Bastet]

11 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I couldn't stand Donal Logue! I wish the writers had given Susan her equal -- some polished, neat, intelligent guy instead of a guy who I'm sure was intelligent but looked like he probably smelled bad, whom she met and married during a drunken weekend in Las Vegas.  The entire Susan-Chuck plot felt like the writers were just trying really hard to give Susan a life. 

I hated every minute of their storyline; she deserved better than that gross, greasy dude.  As a Vegas hook-up, okay, I'll just say she had very thick beer goggles on.  But to stay married to, and then procreate with, him?!  Poor Susan.

[Growsonwalls]

5 hours ago, Heathen said:

The Peter Benton, Lying Liar and Kerry Weaver, TV Reporter storylines were as absurd as Chopper v. Romano. I'm still annoyed that the writers refused to give any of those characters -- ethical, principled doctors who were devoted to medicine and their careers -- a better sendoff.

I think that's what makes me so angry about the Doug/Benton/Weaver/Romano/Corday sendoffs. It's as if the show didn't have respect for them as professionals in an attempt to write them out of the show. Romano's death was just ridiculous (being crushed by a helicopter after being amputated by a helicopter). But Doug/Benton/Weaver/Corday were all written out in a way that made it seem like they didn't much care anymore about their profession, and their inner moral compass. This after seasons of showing that whatever their personal failings were, they ALL were dedicated doctors who had a strong moral compass. 

Benton perjuring himself was the most unbelievable. We saw after 8 seasons that Benton was an extremely principled, honest person (almost to a fault). He was also devoted to his job, and would have had enough self-respect not to perjure himself. Him slinking away into private practice because he had just lied under oath was a weak end to a character we'd come to really love. As I said, if that had been the last we'd seen of Benton it would have sucked. (Although he did have a nice farewell with Carter.) Luckily the show sort of righted that wrong in the final season when we saw Peter back in surgery, and fussing over Carter just like old times. And even better, the show even gave Benton a somewhat ambiguous ending with Corday in the final episode. There was definitely a spark between them.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I agree about the sendoffs, and think the Benton character would have told the judge the truth, that the current job and schedule would keep limiting his time with his son, and saying he would get a 9 to 5 job with regular hours at the suburban center, and wouldn't lie in court.  

 

I think Blizzard from the early years is my favorite episode.   The one where it's a blizzard, no patients, and Greene and Lewis put a cast on Carter's leg when he's asleep.    Then there's a big accident, and Carter can't get the cast off, and the biker patient who has had many casts over the years grabs the cast saw, and removes it for him while Carter's screaming in fear (he didn't hurt Carter at all), while saying "It won't hurt a bit Doc". 

 It's also the one where Bob the clerical lady saves the aneurysm patient by clamping his AAA, and it turns out she's a vascular surgeon in Poland, and needs to pass her boards to practice in the U.S.    She's a character that should have stayed on the show, and her journey back to practicing would have been interesting.  

Edited October 6, 2018 by CrazyInAlabama

[Heathen]

I always thought Carla's accidental pregnancy was out of character for Benton. Sure, he and Carla had obvious chemistry, but Benton was careful about how black men were seen by others (remember him talking to Gant about checking the African-American box on his medical school application?) I think being an unmarried, noncustodial father by accident is something Benton would have strived to avoid and thus made sure to use birth control. 

[Growsonwalls]

51 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I always thought Carla's accidental pregnancy was out of character for Benton. Sure, he and Carla had obvious chemistry, but Benton was careful about how black men were seen by others (remember him talking to Gant about checking the African-American box on his medical school application?) I think being an unmarried, noncustodial father by accident is something Benton would have strived to avoid and thus made sure to use birth control. 

But Peter wasn't Reese's father. Remember when Benton said "We were always careful" meaning they used condoms but Carla said "Careful isn;t 100%"? I think Carla always knew that Peter wasn't the father, but she figured that a surgeon would be a better provider for Reese than whoever the baby-daddy was.

[Bastet]

The paternity was a retcon, and an offensive one; there is no way the Carla who tells Peter she's pregnant and lays into him when he asks if she's sure it's his is lying, or even less than sure who the father is.  No, that's some bullshit they came up with later that is not at all supported by the original scenes.

And, yes, he used protection with Carla.  (It's Jeanie with whom he was lax about it - "we were careful, but not too careful.") 

[Dr.OO7]

18 hours ago, Heathen said:

I always thought Carla's accidental pregnancy was out of character for Benton. Sure, he and Carla had obvious chemistry, but Benton was careful about how black men were seen by others (remember him talking to Gant about checking the African-American box on his medical school application?) I think being an unmarried, noncustodial father by accident is something Benton would have strived to avoid and thus made sure to use birth control. 

I never liked that. I always wondered why ELS didn't object to that. I found that far more offensive and stereotypical than him dating a white woman.

17 hours ago, Bastet said:

The paternity was a retcon, and an offensive one; there is no way the Carla who tells Peter she's pregnant and lays into him when he asks if she's sure it's his is lying, or even less than sure who the father is.  No, that's some bullshit they came up with later that is not at all supported by the original scenes

I hated that too. The reveal that Benton wasn't Reese's makes Carla's already bitchy behavior--flipping out when he asked if he was sure he was the father, refusing to accept his apologies, rebuffing him everytime he tried to reach out to her, throwing a hissy fit anytime she wasn't the center of his universe--look even worse.

[Heathen]

5 hours ago, Camille said:

I never liked that. I always wondered why ELS didn't object to that. I found that far more offensive and stereotypical than him dating a white woman.

It was only season three, so maybe Eriq La Salle felt he didn't have enough power to complain? Or maybe he felt Benton-as-dad would show the character's softer side in contrast to the intense hardass he'd typically been up to that point.  

[Growsonwalls]

Somehow it didn't bother me that much that Benton had a series of failed relationships. I loved Benton as a character but other than with Reese and on occasion Carter he wasn't a warm person. He was obsessed with his work. He was sober and serious to a fault. His relationship with Cleo didn't seem based on much other than she was a pediatrician who would be a steady mother figure for Reese. In the final season when he was catching up with Carter he barely talked about Cleo, so I presume their relationship had settled into something comfortable but I doubt there was much passion.

[Heathen]

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Somehow it didn't bother me that much that Benton had a series of failed relationships. I loved Benton as a character but other than with Reese and on occasion Carter he wasn't a warm person. He was obsessed with his work. He was sober and serious to a fault. His relationship with Cleo didn't seem based on much other than she was a pediatrician who would be a steady mother figure for Reese. In the final season when he was catching up with Carter he barely talked about Cleo, so I presume their relationship had settled into something comfortable but I doubt there was much passion.

I didn't mind the failed relationships, either. Benton was an outright ass to Jeannie during their affair, and he was condescending to Corday as well. Cleo -- who knows. Maybe she was less tree-like at home! It was his character perpetuating a stereotype about black men -- when Benton deliberately avoided perpetuating stereotypes about black men -- that bothered me. 

[txhorns79]

I'm rewatching Season 2.  I can't even with Chloe.  She's the worst in every possible way, from abandoning her baby to just randomly showing up again to take the baby back.  How Susan didn't just beat the crap out of her, repeatedly, I'll never know. 

[Dr.OO7]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm rewatching Season 2.  I can't even with Chloe.  She's the worst in every possible way, from abandoning her baby to just randomly showing up again to take the baby back.  How Susan didn't just beat the crap out of her, repeatedly, I'll never know. 

Her getting the baby back so easily never made sense either. She'd only had her act together a few months, I can't imagine any judge thinking it was a good idea to return custody of her daughter to get immediately.

[Heathen]

3 hours ago, Camille said:

Her getting the baby back so easily never made sense either. She'd only had her act together a few months, I can't imagine any judge thinking it was a good idea to return custody of her daughter to get immediately.

Not to mention, how did an uneducated woman with a spotty employment history, a criminal record, and a history of drug abuse manage to get a good job like insurance underwriting five seconds after she got "clean"? Chloe couldn't keep a menial job before, but suddenly she's an insurance underwriter? Uh huh, and Jerry is an Olympic gymnast. 

[debraran]

I agree, re the stereotypes but it was better than some at the time.The usual stereotypes are the darker your skin, the meaner your character, black women are usually aggressive or if they act aggressive after being docile, are given more flak. The interracial couples shown are usually the black man with a white woman on TV (something Eriq was very aware of) and if there is a crime, usually it's someone black. A running joke in my home as I re watched it was "no black gangbangers today in the ER or shooting victims?"  The urban ER I worked in many years ago seemed much more diverse in patients. ; )

I saw a review once by a black woman who like my daughter saw things through her own lens. She liked the show but didn't love it because she felt the black characters weren't developed like the others, which was her opinion, but thoughtful.  Benton was fine but had to be alone or with a woman who had a baby "that might be his" but probably not".  The other love interest was married and of course her husband gave her HIV. Cleo, well that's been discussed here.  She was upset Gallant and Pratt were killed off and that any minority nurse was a background character. Although I never thought of Carter's wife as "black" she pointed out even she had to lose the baby and be a horrible character.

Those were her opinions but it helps to see the show through others eyes and also to see how Eriq might have felt, not just about his onscreen relationship but maybe he was thinking of other issues with characters.
 

Edited October 8, 2018 by debraran

[Growsonwalls]

10 hours ago, Heathen said:

Not to mention, how did an uneducated woman with a spotty employment history, a criminal record, and a history of drug abuse manage to get a good job like insurance underwriting five seconds after she got "clean"? Chloe couldn't keep a menial job before, but suddenly she's an insurance underwriter? Uh huh, and Jerry is an Olympic gymnast. 

I think that was a lot of BTS stuff. Apparently Stringfield wanted to be written out of the series ASAP. She never really specified why she was so eager to leave (especially as she later came back for a longer, rather blah stint) so Chloe getting the baby back and Susan leaving to be with little Susie was the plot device used to write her out. I agree though, no way Chloe cleans up her act so quickly. 

I think where the show jumped the shark on Susan is during her second stint when she has a drunken Vegas marriage to Chuck. Again, extremely out of character. We saw how Susan v. 1.0 because of her dysfunctional family is also essentially sober, serious and responsible person. But she gets drunk, marries this guy, and what's more, even procreates with him? No, just no. I always wished Susan and Carter would have gotten together. It would have spared us the endless Carter/Abby/Luka drama. 

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think that was a lot of BTS stuff. Apparently Stringfield wanted to be written out of the series ASAP. She never really specified why she was so eager to leave (especially as she later came back for a longer, rather blah stint) so Chloe getting the baby back and Susan leaving to be with little Susie was the plot device used to write her out. I agree though, no way Chloe cleans up her act so quickly. 

I think where the show jumped the shark on Susan is during her second stint when she has a drunken Vegas marriage to Chuck. Again, extremely out of character. We saw how Susan v. 1.0 because of her dysfunctional family is also essentially sober, serious and responsible person. But she gets drunk, marries this guy, and what's more, even procreates with him? No, just no. I always wished Susan and Carter would have gotten together. It would have spared us the endless Carter/Abby/Luka drama. 

Or even just give her some nice, normal guy who didn't work in the ER. Not a Carter, not sloppy Chuck, not the psychiatrist from the first season. Not Luka! (You know the writers probably thought about it.)