All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[CrazyInAlabama]

What I hated the most about Chloe was the second time when they did the cross over to the NYPD show, and Susan goes to NY, runs around trying to find Chloe, and her niece, and when Chloe tells Susan to take a hike and not bother her, Susan does.  That was ridiculous, and it was a stupid way to handle it.    

Edited October 9, 2018 by CrazyInAlabama

[MVFrostsMyPie]

Susan and Carter just didn't work. There was no chemistry. Maybe in the earlier seasons, but once they were both older, it fell flat, even if they didn't have them date just as a roadblock to Carter dating Abby. Even their kisses were just bland. Well, most of the kisses on the show were bland. Except maybe Clooney's kisses, but no one really oozed "sexy" during their romantic make out sessions/dry humping, which is fine, since that's how normal life and normal people are, but I guess now that I'm older and rewatching, some extra "oomph" would have been nice.  Except any scene with Greene kissing anyone was just too much. Blech. What was this rated, once the ratings thing started happening on TV? TV-14 or PG?

[Growsonwalls]

13 minutes ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

Susan and Carter just didn't work. There was no chemistry. Maybe in the earlier seasons, but once they were both older, it fell flat, even if they didn't have them date just as a roadblock to Carter dating Abby. Even their kisses were just bland. Well, most of the kisses on the show were bland. Except maybe Clooney's kisses, but no one really oozed "sexy" during their romantic make out sessions/dry humping, which is fine, since that's how normal life and normal people are, but I guess now that I'm older and rewatching, some extra "oomph" would have been nice.  Except any scene with Greene kissing anyone was just too much. Blech. What was this rated, once the ratings thing started happening on TV? TV-14 or PG?

I think it was the 10:00 slot, which meant it was "mature" but I'm not sure how much the ratings were. I think that had more to do with the mature content than anything. as for the lack of really great sexual chemistry, yeah, that was a puzzlement too. Except for Doug and Carol. But I think Clooney just had chemistry with anyone on the show. He had amazing chemistry with Anthony Edwards but not in a romantic way. 

Julianna Marguiles didn't even have chemistry with her real-life bf at the time (Ron Eldard). 

It was weird to see Elizabeth Mitchell play Kerry's gf in a not-very-passionate-or-exciting-affair but a few laters on LOST as Juliet Burke (another doctor!) she had great chemistry with Sawyer (Josh Holloway). 

[Growsonwalls]

You know thinking of Sawyer and Juliet (as well as Jack and Kate and other LOST couplings) I think the reason ER never had much romantic success was they tended to pair like with like. The only time they didn't was when they paired playboy Doug with hopeless romantic Carol and voila! That was the only couple that really stuck.

A few examples:

Benton/Cleo: two sober, serious, not-very-warm people of course will have a sober, serious, not-very-exciting romance. Benton's romance with Corday worked precisely because it did have an opposites attract feel.

Abby/Luka: two extremely damaged, unhappy people are of course going to have a miserable romance. I was miserable just watching them constantly be miserable together.

Mark/Elizabeth: on paper this looked good. Mark was the kind and empathetic one, Elizabeth feistier and sharper. But then the writers decided to make Elizabeth a female Mark, and all went to shit.

LOST initially made the mistake of pairing like with like when they paired Jack with Juliet (two unhappy, damaged doctors) and Kate and Sawyer (two con-artists). However they switched plans and realized that the opposites attract formula makes for much better tv. 

A great example is this scene. Juliet is a serious, miserable OB-GYN doctor. She spends three years on the island being serious and miserable, whether she;'s with the Oceania group or with Ben's group. Her trademark look is a deep frown or a cold stare. This scene works because she sits down with Sawyer for a chat and the first half of the scene she is the Juliet we know: serious and sober. However within seconds she's giggling. And Sawyer puts the moves on her, and her face mirrors his: it has the same crooked smirk and shifty eyes. Dr. Burke is no longer Dr. Miserable. You can tell that she's thinking the two weeks will be a whole lot of screwing around with her new hot "friend." 

This took LOST two minutes to accomplish. I wonder why the ER writers didn't ever figure this out in 15 seasons.

[txhorns79]

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Not to mention, how did an uneducated woman with a spotty employment history, a criminal record, and a history of drug abuse manage to get a good job like insurance underwriting five seconds after she got "clean"? Chloe couldn't keep a menial job before, but suddenly she's an insurance underwriter? Uh huh, and Jerry is an Olympic gymnast. 

I agree.  While I can buy that Chloe could eventually clean up her act, it's amazing to me how quickly she seems to get Susie back.  I'm surprised she wouldn't be under court monitored supervision for some period of time. 

And I forgot just how awful Mark is with Jeanie having HIV.  I can't believe he went into her medical records.  He should have been fired for that.  

[Bastet]

13 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

And I forgot just how awful Mark is with Jeanie having HIV.  I can't believe he went into her medical records.  He should have been fired for that.  

That was horrible, although a sadly accurate reflection of the kind of thing that would happen.  One good thing to come out of it was Jeanie's great line about "Now you know more about me, and I know more about you."   As much as I hate how Jeanie treats Kerry during the lawsuit storyline (hello, direct your ire at Anspaugh, not the one given a mandate that she implemented fairly, with no pretext, and who has always had your back around this issue), I like Jeanie in general during that time, and especially telling Mark she sees him for who he is.

[eskimo]

I've just started watching reruns again for the first time since the show went off air, and I don't remember why the names Jing-Mei and Deb are used interchangeably.  The first couple of times, I didn't know who they were talking about when they mentioned Deb.  I didn't start until around season 7/8 both times, so I might have missed the explanation. 

[txhorns79]

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I've just started watching reruns again for the first time since the show went off air, and I don't remember why the names Jing-Mei and Deb are used interchangeably.  The first couple of times, I didn't know who they were talking about when they mentioned Deb.  I didn't start until around season 7/8 both times, so I might have missed the explanation. 

Jing-Mei appeared in the first season as a medical student who went by the name "Deb."  When she returned a few years later, she told everyone she now went by Jing-Mei.  Carter still called her "Deb." 

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Jing-Mei appeared in the first season as a medical student who went by the name "Deb."  When she returned a few years later, she told everyone she now went by Jing-Mei.  Carter still called her "Deb." 

It was at least in part due to the request of Ming Na, the actress who played her.  I seem to recall an interview where she talked about how, as a child and even into young adulthood, Asian kids would pick out an 'American' name for themselves and use it at school, etc because they didn't like seeming different from the other kids nor to seem that they were new to the country, since most were born here.  As she got older, she and other members of her generation developed more pride in their names and the heritage behind them and often went back to their given Chinese names.  So, when Deb came back, she wanted her story to reflect that pride and personal growth and asked the writers to let Deb come back using her original Chinese name. 

And, of course, Carter, being Carter and being a longtime friend from her early days in medical school; still called her Deb and she allowed it; so it became sort of a special thing between them.

[Growsonwalls]

I really hated how they brought Jing-Mei/Deb back and then barely used her. They did similar to Susan. And actually, I also wonder why they never tried Jing-Mei/Carter. I always could see Carter with someone like Jing-Mei, whereas i never bought Carter and Abby at all.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

I think Deb/J-M and Carter had better chemistry as friends. Plus his type seemed to be blondes who were usually older than him, besides Kem & that college intern (in season 7?). That blonde chick from season 2(?) was his age, and insurance lady from season 5 might have been his age (although I thought she was older), but the rest were older. Abby Keaton, his cousin's ex-wife in season 6, (he at least kissed/had a crush on) Anna in season 4, Abby who decided to dye her hair blonde conveniently while they dated. Am I missing anyone? That patient with an STD in season 1 doesn't count. Oh I forgot Lucy (blonde again) but I never shipped them and she was one of the few younger ones, so, there's that. Oh and didn't he briefly date blonde Debbie in Africa before getting all googly-eyed over Kem? 

Oh and I forgot Susan, ha!

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

And actually, I also wonder why they never tried Jing-Mei/Carter.

Hopefully because they realized it was refreshing for a man and a woman on TV to enjoy working together and even be friends without falling for each other. 

Or because the characters just didn't have that kind of chemistry - but, then, neither did Carter and Susan, but they still tried forcing that one for a little while anyway.

[Heathen]

9 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

I think Deb/J-M and Carter had better chemistry as friends. Plus his type seemed to be blondes who were usually older than him, besides Kem & that college intern (in season 7?). That blonde chick from season 2(?) was his age, and insurance lady from season 5 might have been his age (although I thought she was older), but the rest were older. Abby Keaton, his cousin's ex-wife in season 6, (he at least kissed/had a crush on) Anna in season 4, Abby who decided to dye her hair blonde conveniently while they dated. Am I missing anyone? That patient with an STD in season 1 doesn't count. Oh I forgot Lucy (blonde again) but I never shipped them and she was one of the few younger ones, so, there's that. Oh and didn't he briefly date blonde Debbie in Africa before getting all googly-eyed over Kem? 

Oh and I forgot Susan, ha!

Yep, Debbie, the one he actually had chemistry with and should have ended up with. 

Good observations about Carter's type. Maybe that's why Carter + Kem never made sense. 

[MVFrostsMyPie]

I'm in the middle of rewatching season 4 and was reminded of how I wish Anna could have stayed. I thought she and Carter had good chemistry and could have actually been a healthy couple (you know, minus the required drama of a TV show every few episodes). 

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 3:43 PM, MVFrostsMyPie said:

I'm in the middle of rewatching season 4 and was reminded of how I wish Anna could have stayed. I thought she and Carter had good chemistry and could have actually been a healthy couple (you know, minus the required drama of a TV show every few episodes). 

completely agree with this. It seemed like they had the foundation for an interesting, fun to watch develop relationship. Much better than Kem or anyone else he was with. There was some depth.

[Growsonwalls]

On 10/27/2018 at 4:43 PM, MVFrostsMyPie said:

I'm in the middle of rewatching season 4 and was reminded of how I wish Anna could have stayed. I thought she and Carter had good chemistry and could have actually been a healthy couple (you know, minus the required drama of a TV show every few episodes). 

I agree with this but I've also heard Maria Bello talk about her ER experience and she talked about it in the most dismissive way, and acted like she was so embarrassed to be on the show. It really turned me off to her. She said she didn't want to be "some doctor on TV." I was really surprised. It's not as if she hasn't done a lot of TV since, and her movie career has been okayish but she isn't an A list movie star by any means.

[doodlebug]

8 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I agree with this but I've also heard Maria Bello talk about her ER experience and she talked about it in the most dismissive way, and acted like she was so embarrassed to be on the show. It really turned me off to her. She said she didn't want to be "some doctor on TV." I was really surprised. It's not as if she hasn't done a lot of TV since, and her movie career has been okayish but she isn't an A list movie star by any means.

At the time she left, I think she envisioned herself as a serious actress appearing In important films and I do recall her being rather condescending and dismissive of TV in general and ER in particular when she left the show.  Of course, her movie career never materialized unless you think Coyote Ugly is great art.

[Dr.OO7]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

At the time she left, I think she envisioned herself as a serious actress appearing In important films and I do recall her being rather condescending and dismissive of TV in general and ER in particular when she left the show.  Of course, her movie career never materialized unless you think Coyote Ugly is great art.

So she's the female David Caruso, basically.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

3 hours ago, doodlebug said:

At the time she left, I think she envisioned herself as a serious actress appearing In important films and I do recall her being rather condescending and dismissive of TV in general and ER in particular when she left the show.  Of course, her movie career never materialized unless you think Coyote Ugly is great art.

Haha, I do have a soft spot for Coyote Ugly in my heart ?

[Heathen]

13 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I agree with this but I've also heard Maria Bello talk about her ER experience and she talked about it in the most dismissive way, and acted like she was so embarrassed to be on the show. It really turned me off to her. She said she didn't want to be "some doctor on TV." I was really surprised. It's not as if she hasn't done a lot of TV since, and her movie career has been okayish but she isn't an A list movie star by any means.

She's an okay actress (better than Michael Michele, but then again, so is my cat), but she's not spectacular. She could have had a great career on ER if her ego hadn't gotten in the way. 

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, Heathen said:

She's an okay actress (better than Michael Michele, but then again, so is my cat), but she's not spectacular. She could have had a great career on ER if her ego hadn't gotten in the way. 

The character of Anna was multifaceted, unlike so many of the characters introduced after her, too.  There were so many directions the show could've taken her besides a romance with Carter (or in addition to that).  She was a strong and assertive woman, she wasn't afraid to give an opinion and, while she worked well with colleagues; she was no pushover.  She could've been a good friend to Kerry or Carol or Elizabeth.  And, Maria Bello was a decent actress and could've been given an opportunity to really shine had she not been so determined to throw away the opportunity.

[txhorns79]

Watching the first season again, it's so interesting to see the whole show take shape.  The exterior locations for the hospital are almost entirely different from the later ones, Doc Magoo's has outdoor seating and appears to be a charming diner, and Jen is still awful.   However, Chloe remains the worst, and I think Susan is a bit of a wimp in dealing with her.  I mean, she stole the Susan's television, but somehow Chloe is still getting an invite for Thanksgiving?  How is that possible? 

I also find the episode with the transgender woman so interesting, and I can't imagine it would fly today.  Carter can barely tolerate being around her (for reasons that aren't really explained), Connie refers to her as a s****** (not the designer, sorry Lindsay Bluth!), and obviously, because this is one of those tragic storylines, the woman kills herself before the episode is over.   

[Growsonwalls]

7 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I also find the episode with the transgender woman so interesting, and I can't imagine it would fly today.  Carter can barely tolerate being around her (for reasons that aren't really explained), Connie refers to her as a s****** (not the designer, sorry Lindsay Bluth!), and obviously, because this is one of those tragic storylines, the woman kills herself before the episode is over.   

John Truman Carter III in his first season was a third year medical student from an ultra-rich family who only associated with really WASP-ish types. It's likely that Carter had never even met a transgender woman in his life. And this was 1994. Still so much fear/ignorance back then. So while his lack of empathy was depressing it was realistic. So was Doug not being entirely comfortable with the gay teen, and Mark having some very backwards views on Jeannie working in a hospital. 

[txhorns79]

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John Truman Carter III in his first season was a third year medical student from an ultra-rich family who only associated with really WASP-ish types.

This actually raises a question I had.  During the first season, Carter is sometimes introduced to patients as "Dr." Carter, while other people call him "Mr." Carter.  I was always under the impression that someone isn't referred to as doctor before they graduate medical school.  Is it common that a third year medical student would be referred to as a doctor during their rotation?

Also, what in the world happened to Div Cvetic, the psych doctor who Susan dates during the first season?  The last we see of him, he is apparently severely depressed, darting through traffic in the middle of a pretty bad storm.  An episode or two later, Susan finds out he moved out of his apartment, never to be seen again.  Was there some issue with the actor?  It was such a weird way to end that storyline.  I can't believe that was the original plan.     

[starri]

6 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

This actually raises a question I had.  During the first season, Carter is sometimes introduced to patients as "Dr." Carter, while other people call him "Mr." Carter.  I was always under the impression that someone isn't referred to as doctor before they graduate medical school.  Is it common that a third year medical student would be referred to as a doctor during their rotation?

I was always "Student Dr. [starri]"

[doodlebug]

57 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

This actually raises a question I had.  During the first season, Carter is sometimes introduced to patients as "Dr." Carter, while other people call him "Mr." Carter.  I was always under the impression that someone isn't referred to as doctor before they graduate medical school.  Is it common that a third year medical student would be referred to as a doctor during their rotation?

Also, what in the world happened to Div Cvetic, the psych doctor who Susan dates during the first season?  The last we see of him, he is apparently severely depressed, darting through traffic in the middle of a pretty bad storm.  An episode or two later, Susan finds out he moved out of his apartment, never to be seen again.  Was there some issue with the actor?  It was such a weird way to end that storyline.  I can't believe that was the original plan.     

I attended medical school back in the early 80's, about a decade before Carter.  Back then, an attending would occasionally refer to me as 'Dr So and So' while talking to a patient, but, most commonly, I was introduced as a medical student or student doctor.  I certainly would never introduce myself as "Doctor".  Nowadays, I don't think any student would introduce themselves as 'Doctor' and certainly no one else would, either.  Patients are well aware of the difference between medical students and doctors and would absolutely hit the roof if they felt someone was trying to deceive them.

I think Div was originally introduced on the show as a 'twist' which they did a lot in those days.  Remember Susan spent the whole day butting heads with Div over a patient she felt needed admitted to psych and then we got the reveal at the end of the episode that that they were together outside of work.  Meanwhile, it seems like their relationship was not public knowledge in the ER.  I think Div was meant to be just a short term arc, sort of a primer on physician burnout and mental health issues.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

I think the actor who played Div got a role on another show, so that was their way of writing him out. 

Have I mentioned how much I hated the Amanda Lee storyline? Although I get a kick out of the fact that AE and Mare Winningham are dating in real life.

[doodlebug]

8 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

I think the actor who played Div got a role on another show, so that was their way of writing him out. 

Have I mentioned how much I hated the Amanda Lee storyline? Although I get a kick out of the fact that AE and Mare Winningham are dating in real life.

Anthony Edwards is still married, as far as I know, although there have been rumors of a split.  Or do you mean they dated sometime in the past?  Edwards was also involved with Meg Ryan for a number of years after they played a married couple in Top Gun.

I do like Mare Winningham as an actress and wish she had gotten a better story on ER.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

It was mentioned in this link: https://www.thedailybeast.com/er-star-anthony-edwards-i-dont-see-my-childhood-sexual-abuse-as-a-tragedy

Which is from April 2018

[txhorns79]

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Have I mentioned how much I hated the Amanda Lee storyline?

I stand by my idea that they had a totally different arc planned, and something happened to derail it.  As it was, in her first episode she was presented as a very qualified ER attending physician who had been acting as Assistant ER Chief in Atlanta.  By episode 2, she was completely bonkers, stealing items from Dr. Greene and making a Christmas Tree of Crazy.  By episode 3, she was gone after having blown up what must have been a decade or so long con job with some easily verifiable lies that no amateur would be caught making. 

[txhorns79]

Bumping this up with my first season rewatch: I realize the show makes Mark the victim in Season 2 by having Jen have an affair, but he's kind of awful to her in Season 1.  He really has no desire whatsoever to give up anything to support her career.  He accepts the attending job at County without even discussing it with Jen, and seems taken aback when she calls him on it.  It makes me wonder why they bothered to have the character be married and have a kid when the show seems to have no idea how to write for that type of character and the writers basically immediately ship off Jen to Milwaukee with Rachel.

I also had forgotten just how terrible Peter can be.  It's not just that he's arrogant, but he's the kind of person who leaves 99% of the care of his ailing, demented mother to Jackie then turns around and freaks out at her over Jackie's extremely reasonable plan to put their mother in a nursing home when it becomes clear Jackie doesn't have the ability to continue doing the job. 

[Bastet]

I agree completely, especially about Mark and Jen.  Her cheating winds up overshadowing the myriad ways he was a bad husband, and I think the writers very much did that on purpose to make him look like the sympathetic victim in that divorce.  Which pisses me off.  I know he's the main character and Jen is an appendage to him, but they did her - and all the women this has happened to in real life - wrong by glossing over the complete lack of thought he gave to her professional desires and ambitions. 

[debraran]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

I agree completely, especially about Mark and Jen.  Her cheating winds up overshadowing the myriad ways he was a bad husband, and I think the writers very much did that on purpose to make him look like the sympathetic victim in that divorce.  Which pisses me off.  I know he's the main character and Jen is an appendage to him, but they did her - and all the women this has happened to in real life - wrong by glossing over the complete lack of thought he gave to her professional desires and ambitions. 

They glossed over the fact that a doctor and lawyer usually would have discussed jobs and school etc. Mark loved the ER more than he wanted to admit but it was obvious. Jen was going to be a lawyer, the fact she wanted a position quite a bit away wasn't totally unexpected. They could have compromised with somewhere in between but that wouldn't have Mark single and dejected. I worked at Yale for many years, saw so many doctor couples/doctor/lawyer and every other combo. Some commuted by train to work, 1-2 hours, some both worked close, but it wasn't a surprise.

I just wish they gave more discussion to it, it came off that Jen was cold and didn't care care and their daughter pays the price. Even later, Rachel was made to be the spurned child, mom doesn't want her, Dad's trying to get new partner to accept her, when really she could have had the best schools, etc. I always had the feeling Jen was never home and Rachel was brought up by sitters, kind of sad. She seemed angry toward her dad, but it wasn't Mark that kept them apart.

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

They glossed over the fact that a doctor and lawyer usually would have discussed jobs and school etc. Mark loved the ER more than he wanted to admit but it was obvious. Jen was going to be a lawyer, the fact she wanted a position quite a bit away wasn't totally unexpected. They could have compromised with somewhere in between but that wouldn't have Mark single and dejected. I worked at Yale for many years, saw so many doctor couples/doctor/lawyer and every other combo. Some commuted by train to work, 1-2 hours, some both worked close, but it wasn't a surprise.

I just wish they gave more discussion to it, it came off that Jen was cold and didn't care care and their daughter pays the price. Even later, Rachel was made to be the spurned child, mom doesn't want her, Dad's trying to get new partner to accept her, when really she could have had the best schools, etc. I always had the feeling Jen was never home and Rachel was brought up by sitters, kind of sad. She seemed angry toward her dad, but it wasn't Mark that kept them apart.

The writing for that was poor because they made this two hour commute seem so insurmountable and the reason they grew apart. I know plenty of couples who have to do the two hour commute every day (both couples) and they have kids involved. So they added to the two hour commute issue by having Jen cheat on Mark. 

I do think the way Jen let Mark know their marriage was over was awful. She gets into a car accident and all she asks about is her bf? And that Greg guy hanging around and not even letting Mark face the end of his marriage without any intrusion? I don't forgive Jen for that.

One interesting bit: originally Julianna Marguiles read for Jen's part, but they ultimately decided to have her be Carol, who was going to die in the pilot. 

[jewel21]

I remember the episode where Mark suggested to Jen moving to a city that was a halfway point for both of them and she was so dismissive to the suggestion because she had to commute an hour. I travel 3 1/2 hours round-trip to get to my job by bus and subway so her bitching about an hour commute made me want to murder her, heh. 

[Dr.OO7]

3 hours ago, jewel21 said:

I remember the episode where Mark suggested to Jen moving to a city that was a halfway point for both of them and she was so dismissive to the suggestion because she had to commute an hour. I travel 3 1/2 hours round-trip to get to my job by bus and subway so her bitching about an hour commute made me want to murder her, heh. 

I always hated Jen. She undermined every valid complaint she had about Mark by being guilty of the same thing--refusing to move, refusing to compromise, having a friend of the opposite sex. She was just always so bitchy and miserable.

[txhorns79]

Jesus Carol, you tried to kill yourself like what, six or seven months ago?  On what planet do you think anyone is going to let you adopt any child as a single parent, much less one with (what was then) a terminal illness, limited English comprehension, and a lot of stress inducing needs?

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She undermined every valid complaint she had about Mark by being guilty of the same thing--refusing to move, refusing to compromise, having a friend of the opposite sex

In fairness to Jen, my impression of her relationship with Mark was one where she made the sacrifices while he went through med school and his residency, and once she graduated law school, it was supposed to be "her turn," so to speak. 

[MVFrostsMyPie]

Ugh this talk of Mark and Jen reminds me of that episode where they spent most of it having sex ?

[txhorns79]

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Ugh this talk of Mark and Jen reminds me of that episode where they spent most of it having sex ?

And Doug was really into it. 

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

In fairness to Jen, my impression of her relationship with Mark was one where she made the sacrifices while he went through med school and his residency, and once she graduated law school, it was supposed to be "her turn," so to speak. 

Exactly.  By the time she was finally able to start her career, he was established in his.  He had the perfect job for him, but was blind to the fact this clerkship was what she needed to do to wind up in the perfect job for her and she was damn well due the right to establish herself.  By the time he saw the light, they'd just grown too much apart and it was inevitably going to be over, no matter what anyone did.  It was a grounded story - got married and had a kid younger than they should have, resentment built up because one party had to put her interests on hold for too long, job circumstances instigated a temporary living apart situation - until they decided to prop Mark up by giving Jen a secret boyfriend on the side rather than letting it play naturally, where the "temporary" situation turns out to be the best way to go, permanently, especially because she's developed feelings for someone new.  But, no, it gets reduced to Big Bad Lying Cheater Jen and Poor Mark, Who Gets Blindsided By Secret Boyfriend.

[izabella]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

Exactly.  By the time she was finally able to start her career, he was established in his.  He had the perfect job for him, but was blind to the fact this clerkship was what she needed to do to wind up in the perfect job for her and she was damn well due the right to establish herself.  By the time he saw the light, they'd just grown too much apart and it was inevitably going to be over, no matter what anyone did.  It was a grounded story - got married and had a kid younger than they should have, resentment built up because one party had to put her interests on hold for too long, job circumstances instigated a temporary living apart situation - until they decided to prop Mark up by giving Jen a secret boyfriend on the side rather than letting it play naturally, where the "temporary" situation turns out to be the best way to go, permanently, especially because she's developed feelings for someone new.  But, no, it gets reduced to Big Bad Lying Cheater Jen and Poor Mark, Who Gets Blindsided By Secret Boyfriend.

I always thought it was a realistic story line, even Jen cheating.  They were distant, their marriage was shaky, and they weren't happy.  That's exactly the time when either or both of them might meet someone who starts off as a friend, and then becomes more.  I can believe an affair would start that way.  Where I thought they took it too far and over the top, was the way they made Jen into an obnoxious bitch in just about every conversation.  Jen really grated on my nerves  Just like Susan's sister Chloe - she was an obnoxious personality aside from her addiction.  The show just went overboard loading up on the obnoxiousness of some of the supporting characters to, as you said, prop Mark or Susan or whoever.

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

I always thought it was a realistic story line, even Jen cheating.  They were distant, their marriage was shaky, and they weren't happy.  That's exactly the time when either or both of them might meet someone who starts off as a friend, and then becomes more.  I can believe an affair would start that way.  Where I thought they took it too far and over the top, was the way they made Jen into an obnoxious bitch in just about every conversation.  Jen really grated on my nerves  Just like Susan's sister Chloe - she was an obnoxious personality aside from her addiction.  The show just went overboard loading up on the obnoxiousness of some of the supporting characters to, as you said, prop Mark or Susan or whoever.

I agree it was realistic. I always thought that they married because it was "the thing to do" -- Mark was that type of guy who took sex and relationships really seriously so he thought the next step after going steady was getting married. I didn't sense that this was a really loving marriage even way back when. Just a comfortable marriage, if that makes sense. When both of them got out of their comfort zone (Jen had a career, new friends, etc) the marriage fell apart. Also we always model our parents unconsciously. The Mark/Jen marriage was very much like Marks' parents' marriage -- comfortable but not that passionate. When Mark's mom passed away and Mark's dad came out of his shell you saw that David Greene could be quite the ladykiller.

I think that this isn't really Christine Harnos' fault but she has a face and voice that don't read very well onscreen. So Jen's expressions and inflection always seemed bitchy even when the character was written with more nuance.

One thing about Eriq La Salle was that Benton could be very cold and arrogant, but La Salle always had big expressive eyes that made you "see" Peter's soul even if he was being an ass (which he often was). 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Bastet]

Oh, the cheating - rather than falling for someone and ending her marriage before getting involved with him - is not a good look, but one realistic extension of the story of that marriage's dissolution.  It's how they made her so sneaky and cold, and him so innocently blindsided, that is a ridiculous propping up of Mark's character at her expense.  And it worked; when most viewers talk about the Greene divorce, they focus on her turning out to have had a boyfriend in Milwaukee or wherever she was, and ignore all of Mark's failures in that marriage that made divorce the inevitable result even if she hadn't cheated.  I never abide cheating (it doesn't automatically render one a shitty person, but it is an unequivocally shitty thing to do - have the basic respect to end the relationship first, and then go forth), but in the grand scheme of that marriage, I am Team Jen.  Despite their efforts.

[Heathen]

Continuity error: When Mark and Jen met to hammer out a divorce settlement (right before they ended up in bed and Jen wondered what Craig would say), they agreed they'd both stay in the Chicago-Milwaukee area until Rachel graduated from high school. So how did Jen end up in St. Louis like two seasons later, when Mark found out from Rachel? 

I always thought Jen was unnecessarily bitchy, even factoring in Mark's many flaws. She had lousy haircuts, too. 

[doodlebug]

9 hours ago, Heathen said:

Continuity error: When Mark and Jen met to hammer out a divorce settlement (right before they ended up in bed and Jen wondered what Craig would say), they agreed they'd both stay in the Chicago-Milwaukee area until Rachel graduated from high school. So how did Jen end up in St. Louis like two seasons later, when Mark found out from Rachel? 

I always thought Jen was unnecessarily bitchy, even factoring in Mark's many flaws. She had lousy haircuts, too. 

That sort of stuff happens all the time in real life, though.  At that point, Mark's only option would be to take Jen to court to revisit the custody issue which would force her to stay in town and lose the good job in St. Louis (as happened with Roger and Carla years later).  Forcing Jen to live up to the divorce agreement years later would've been a dick move on Mark's part, not that he wasn't capable of that, but his only recourse would be to take her to court.

By the way, my sister and her husband lived in Chicago where he had 3 kids from a previous marriage.  When his ex refused the court ordered visitation, his only option was to take her to court.  So, he hired a lawyer who filed the complaint- which took two years to get a hearing because that is how backed up the court is in Chicago.  In the interim, he paid monthly child support but did not see his kids at all-for two years. He eventually won, she was found in contempt; but he lost 2 years.  Mark and Jen were in a reasonably amicable position at the time of the move, antagonizing her by fighting the move would not have helped Rachel.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I always felt sorry for Jen after the divorce, when Rachel turned into a horrible teenager, every time she tried to do anything about Rachel, she would run to her dad, and later Corday, and get coddled.    I know it was part of the show to have her show up in Mark's life when he married Elizabeth, and then when he got sick, but I always saw his relationship with Rachel as a father doing anything he could, and ignoring her awful behavior, just to make up for getting divorced.     Jen got the tough guy role, and had no back up from Mark.   Elizabeth had more respect for Jen's role of mother to Rachel than Mark did.  The episode where Rachel left drugs around and Ella got into them enraged me, with no one calling the police about it.   I find it had to believe that in real life Rachel would have ever had the dedication or grades to make medical school, and thought that was absurd.  

Edited November 11, 2018 by CrazyInAlabama

[Bastet]

Well, she was young, and dealing with some shit, so it's not unreasonable to me that losing her dad maybe sent her a bit further into tailspin but also ultimately prompted her to reflect back on things (especially since Mark made a good effort in the end to explain how he understood both sides of the parent/child conflict; she wasn't magically led away from her bad behavior, but she had a base to draw on) with a maturity circumstances forced her to have, and got herself together.

But I agree that it was the typical scenario where the non-custodial parent (who'd been the less-involved parent even during the marriage) became the "getaway" home, with the kid manipulating that parent's guilt to go somewhere with fewer rules and consequences.

[Growsonwalls]

I don't think it's unrealistic that Rachel got her act together. Many teens from broken homes and blended families often act out and that combined with adolescence usually makes for a hot mess. Also not unrealistic that after Mark's death she'd want to honor her father.

I mean this scene always makes me cry:

 

Along with this final scene of the new "Dr. Greene" running into the ER:

[starri]

9 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Along with this final scene of the new "Dr. Greene" running into the ER:

 

I loved that it's how we left County for the last time.

Well, that and the way Jerry and Chuny just lit up when they recognized Rachel.

[txhorns79]

Question for the real doctors who read the forum: Do hospitals really stage fake drills in the middle of the night as a way to test the staff?  I can understand doing the drills during normal hours, but it seems counterproductive to stage fake ones, in that it would make the staff think a real emergency wasn’t one.  

Also, Dr. Swift just vanishes right?  I don’t remember him coming back in the second season.