All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[Growsonwalls]

4 hours ago, debraran said:

I agree with everyone about those shows, absolutely wonderful acting. That's what made me years ago, give up when they went from stellar performances from Romano, Corday, Peter, etc and had limbs ripped off, helicopters falling, it was like "What?" I missed the Morris transformation which I liked now but it was too much then. I tuned in when old characters came back.  I remember, although it might sound stupid, watching ER on Hulu and seeing the start of one show with a guy in bed with 2 women and they were fawning over him. I seriously thought I hit on the wrong show and hit back button. It was Dr Brenner but I was seeing the beginning of ER being about sex and who was dating Neela.

Those shows really highlight what a great script and great acting can do. I also needed to shake off the boy Dr Greene talked too about his parents. It just stayed with me.

I can't believe I missed this, Anthony Edwards abused?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2017/11/10/anthony-edwards-says-gary-goddard-molested-him-for-years/852778001/

The show lost me for good when Gamma Carter's funeral was ruined by Abby's brother falling into the grave and then that fake-out with Luka not dying. It was then that the show started to feel trashy, more Bold and the Beautiful than a medical drama. One of the things I adored about ER in its prime was that there was drama and soapy storylines but the show had a lot of class. All the main characters have a dignity to them. They have their moments and low points but (as we saw with All in the Family) even the prickliest, coldest characters had a beating heart. 

As for Anthony Edwards, wow that's horrible. Didn't read that about him but good for him for naming names. 

[ch1]

On 9/17/2018 at 11:03 PM, Growsonwalls said:

I just saw the double-whammy of "Be Still My Heart" and "All In the Family." Wow it still packs a punch. If anything it's even more heartwrenching watching it now when I'm older. What a great episode, and such great acting by everybody. In particular, I loved how the most unflappable, unlikable characters in the ER all lost their cool:

- Anspaugh scrubbing in furiously while heaving. In the past we saw the surgeons' mechanical, methodical scrub-ins. There was none of that there.

- Kerry Weaver, face white as a sheet, going outside and throwing up. Then later, her being so shaken she couldn't even be in the same room as Paul. Laura Innes acted the shit out of this episode.

- Peter barreling down the hallways, and screaming at the top of his lungs in the OR as Carter lost more and more blood, and trying to operate on Carter while having to hyperventilate into his mask, and then being unable to operate on another patient because he couldn't leave Carter in the OR.

- the residents Chen and Malucci (who had spent the day bickering over a patient and acting immature) screaming about the severity of the stab wounds. And later Luka/Abby/Chen/Malucci being too shook to even go home and just sitting at Doc Magoo's unable to do anything.

- Romano and Corday, the two master surgeons, reduced to sitting in the hallway, both unable to stand. And then later both of them unwilling to call Lucy's death. When Romano threw the operating materials to the ground and started crying and Corday called "time of death 2:56" I lost it. That was amazing acting by Paul McCrane and Alex Kingston. Also I loved that the last words Lucy heard was the extremely kind "Ms. Knight, we've invested too much in you to lose you" from Romano. I loved the acting of Kellie Martin in that scene. You could see that she heard those words, and sort of exhaled. At least she died knowing people cared about her.

- But the scene that really got to me was Benton tending to Carter post-surgery, and being unable to tell Carter that Lucy had died. Mr. Straight Shooter Benton just avoiding Carter's questions until Carter realized the truth. Eriq La Salle also acted the shit out of this episode. I loved the way he started doing things normally a nurse would do, because it was Carter. 

- The final scene of Romano and Weaver stitching up Lucy was almost too much to watch. Again, Paul McCrane was amazing here. His eyes were red with tears.

I loved how in this episode the focus was not on the usual "good guys" of the ER but on Team Asshole. Romano, Weaver, Anspaugh, Benton, even Corday (who is nice in her personal life but very much a hard-charging surgeon) all did amazing acting in this episode and showed their heart and soul. Great two episodes. 

Besides Benton running down the stairs I loved the scene where Anspaugh has to calm down a freaking out Benton in the OR. 

[Growsonwalls]

13 hours ago, ch1 said:

Besides Benton running down the stairs I loved the scene where Anspaugh has to calm down a freaking out Benton in the OR. 

Yeah Benton wanted to remove Carter's kidney and was screaming and hollering and Anspaugh had to tell him not to cut. Benton also left Cleo out to dry with the other surgery because he couldn't/wouldn't leave Carter in the OR.

I also love Paul's wife gradually realizing that Paul stabbed Lucy and Carter.

And this episode happens to be the only one where Cleo-bot shows some human emotions. When she tells Benton about Lucy I thought I detected a quaver in her voice and a downward turn of her mouth as well as some semblance of sadness in her body language.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[PepSinger]

15 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

And this episode happens to be the only one where Cleo-bot shows some human emotions.

Clearly it was a malfunction.

[RedbirdNelly]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

 

And this episode happens to be the only one where Cleo-bot shows some human emotions. When she tells Benton about Lucy I thought I detected a quaver in her voice and a downward turn of her mouth as well as some semblance of sadness in her body language.

 

to me her best scene was one where she is shooting hoops and interacts with Mark. Her character played college basketball. In that scene, she seemed more relaxed and normal. If they could have played to that more, it would have been better. In season 15, I'm not sure why they didn't just write it with Peter and Cleo being apart, esp with the nice way Peter and Elizabeth interact. They wouldn't have to have showed them getting together.

[Growsonwalls]

17 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

to me her best scene was one where she is shooting hoops and interacts with Mark. Her character played college basketball. In that scene, she seemed more relaxed and normal. If they could have played to that more, it would have been better. In season 15, I'm not sure why they didn't just write it with Peter and Cleo being apart, esp with the nice way Peter and Elizabeth interact. They wouldn't have to have showed them getting together.

Well I think Peter and Cleo-bot just settled into a not-very-exciting-but-not-unhappy relationship. They didn't have any more kids (surprising). Were they officially married? I don't remember. But I guess that's realistic. I always got the feeling that Peter just wanted a stable mother figure for Reese, and wasn't looking for much else. His priorities were always first with Reese and then his job. 

I'm watching season 6 and I wish we'd gotten more insight into why Mark and his dad didn't get along. His dad seems like a good guy, and fun in his gruff miltary kind of way. He certainly can make Elizabeth laugh. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Well I think Peter and Cleo-bot just settled into a not-very-exciting-but-not-unhappy relationship. They didn't have any more kids (surprising). Were they officially married? I don't remember. But I guess that's realistic. I always got the feeling that Peter just wanted a stable mother figure for Reese, and wasn't looking for much else. His priorities were always first with Reese and then his job. 

I don't recall them saying one way or the other if Cleo and Peter married.  It's telling that they had Peter and Reese for the series finale, but did not bother bringing Cleo back. 

Quote

I'm watching season 6 and I wish we'd gotten more insight into why Mark and his dad didn't get along. His dad seems like a good guy, and fun in his gruff miltary kind of way. He certainly can make Elizabeth laugh. 

I was thinking it was mostly just typical father/son drama.

[Bastet]

They went into some of it when Mark went to San Diego to see his parents, and then again when he was talking to Rachel in his final days.  I don't remember specifics, though.  My general memory is that his dad was pretty detached and critical, but Mark eventually realized there was an extent to which life - the generation in which he was raised, the experiences he had supporting a family, etc. - made him that way, and thus in hindsight wished he'd tried to understand his father just like he'd always wished his father had tried to understand him.  That they were both products of their time, and flawed, but fundamentally decent, and some of it just wasn't that big a deal yet it compounded and then, fast forward as life does, and it's not until his mom is already gone and his dad is dying that they bothered to get to know each other.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Bastet

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

They went into some of it when Mark went to San Diego to see his parents, and then again when he was talking to Rachel in his final days.  I don't remember specifics, though.  My general memory is that his dad was pretty detached and critical, but Mark eventually realized there was an extent to which life - the generation in which he was raised, the experiences he had supporting a family, etc. - made him that way, and thus in hindsight wished he'd tried to understand his father just like he'd always wished his father had tried to understand him.  That they were both products of their time, and flawed, but fundamentally decent, and some of it just wasn't that big a deal yet it compounded and then fast forward to his mom already gone and his dad dying before they bothered to get to know each other.

Mark's dad was a product of his generation and also of the military.  He was not given to gushy speeches or showing much emotion.  Mark seemed to feel that his father didn't like him and was also resentful of his father's frequent absences as well as the frequent moves made for his career.  Then, his mother got sick and spilled the beans; they got married because she was pregnant with Mark and she was the one who really didn't want children.  Mark had also been convinced that his father was bitter and angry because he had been bypassed for command of a ship, only to learn from his mom that his father was offered a command but turned it down because Mark was having problems at school and he wanted to stay close to home.  I think all of that, along with his struggles parenting Rachel, put things in a whole new light for Mark: his mother wasn't the saintly perfect maternal angel he had thought and that his father had actually made a huge career sacrifice for his child; while Mark had refused to sacrifice his career at all for Rachel.  

I would also disagree that Mark didn't get to know his father pretty well in the few months they had before his death; I think they had both come to a place of love and respect by the end.

[Bastet]

7 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I would also disagree that Mark didn't get to know his father pretty well in the few months they had before his death; I think they had both come to a place of love and respect by the end.

That's what I meant; that after his mom was gone and his dad was dying, Mark finally got to know his dad and vice versa.  I'll fix the wording, because it can read the way you took it, too.

[Growsonwalls]

I remember in "Fathers and Sons" Doug bristling at Mark's suggestion that he "didn't miss much" by not having a father in his life. Doug said Mark's dad was a fine father and Mark needed to "get his head out of his ass." At the time I thought Doug was raw because Papa Ross was literally the World's Shittiest Dad but after seeing Mark's dad I think Doug was right. His dad isn't super warm and cuddly but he's pretty nice. I am glad his dad got to do some fun things before the cancer took his life. 

As for Cleo-bot sucking, Peter bought tickets to the jazz club but she doesn't want to go. Peter says "But Carter will be disappointed." Cleo-bot looked at him like he was from Mars and insisted on not going to the jazz club. The ways this sucks:

1) Peter just wasted money on the jazz club tickets

2) Peter saying "But Carter will be disappointed" should have made Cleo-bot change her mind. Because if she had human feelings, she'd know that Carter is important to Peter.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I think until the mother got sick, and the old Admiral told Mark why his father came home to a desk, he didn't know his father dumped his career to help his son.     I think he was so angry through all of the years, that he simply didn't to do anything his father wanted him to.     I think the turning point was when the father was in the ER, and Mark talked the young doctor through saving the pilot, and right before that the dad was telling the pilot that the crash wasn't his fault showed Mark his dad wasn't cold and emotionless.    i think Mark always saw his mother as a victim of the heartless, career Navy dad, and then found out she wasn't the saint he thought she was.    When the mother came home and started telling Mark that his conception was a huge accident, she never wanted children, and the other things she said told him that things weren't the way he assumed it was.    

Edited September 20, 2018 by CrazyInAlabama

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I think until the mother got sick, and the old Admiral told Mark why his father came home to a desk, he didn't know his father dumped his career to help his son.     I think he was so angry through all of the years, that he simply didn't to do anything his father wanted him to.     I think the turning point was when the father was in the ER, and Mark talked the young doctor through saving the pilot, and right before that the dad was telling the pilot that the crash wasn't his fault showed Mark his dad wasn't cold and emotionless.    i think Mark always saw his mother as a victim of the heartless, career Navy dad, and then found out she wasn't the saint he thought she was.    When the mother came home and started telling Mark that his conception was a huge accident, she never wanted children, and the other things she said told him that things weren't the way he assumed it was.    

Yes, I think, in the end, Mark started to see both of his parents as real people, with hopes and dreams, successes and failures, strengths and weaknesses.  He hadn't really thought about their lives outside of their roles as his parents.  I think this happens to a lot of people as they become adults they start to see their parents as multi-dimensional people and not cardboard cutouts.  They also realize that nobody's perfect and neither is any family.  I thought that particular storyline was well done.

[Heathen]

Carter and Kem really didn't have any chemistry. I'll always be disappointed that TPTB forced that stupid storyline on us rather than leaving Carter with Debbie, the NGO worker with whom he did have chemistry. Carter/Debbie made sense; Carter/Kem never did. 

[Heathen]

So if Sam and Alex went on the run to get away from Loser Steve, and then Luka convinced Sam to come back to Chicago from Louisville, where was Loser Steve afterward? Did he give up on "like the coolest job ever" and hit the road again? 

The writing by this point (season eleven) truly sucked. 

[Growsonwalls]

So today's Yom Kippur which means I didn't have to go to work (perks of being a teacher). So I randomly picked one old episode to watch since I have been going through season 6. I ended up watching the season 3 episode "Faith." I had watched it on my first Hulu binge but rewatching it really underlined how much the show changed in three years. It was a quiet little episode where not much happens at all, but it was full of lovely moments. Doyle fighting so hard for the Down's syndrome girl Louise to get a heart transplant because her own brother has Down's syndrome. It was a brief scene but Doyle was so warm towards her brother (and different from her somewhat brusque work persona). Doyle's brother and Louise playing Jenga. Doug taking the ventilator from the CF boy who had turned 18 and wanted to die. Peter expressing remorse about Gant's death. Not much happens at all, just a regular day in the ER. Lovely episode. 

ETA: in season 6 Dr. Dave gives the girl who took too many pills charcoal. In prior situations they'd always intubated and pumped the stomach. Anyone who's a doctor know when to pump the stomach, and when to give charcoal?

Edited September 20, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[MVFrostsMyPie]

6 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

As for Cleo-bot sucking, Peter bought tickets to the jazz club but she doesn't want to go. Peter says "But Carter will be disappointed." Cleo-bot looked at him like he was from Mars and insisted on not going to the jazz club. The ways this sucks:

1) Peter just wasted money on the jazz club tickets

2) Peter saying "But Carter will be disappointed" should have made Cleo-bot change her mind. Because if she had human feelings, she'd know that Carter is important to Peter.

Hmm, I interpreted that scene as not that she didn't want to go to the jazz club, but that she saw that Benton was preoccupied about Carter and maybe going to a jazz club wasn't really in his heart, so she suggested that maybe they should go somewhere where they could sit down and talk and be able to hear each other, since it seemed like he needed to get his concerns/stories about Carter off his chest to cope with everything that had happened. And then Peter saying that Carter would be disappointed was just a lighthearted (inside) joke (not that he was actually bummed about missing out on the jazz club) since Carter had told him earlier, "you know what happens at the jazz club!" (one of his funniest lines, just the way that he said it, haha). 

3 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

ETA: in season 6 Dr. Dave gives the girl who took too many pills charcoal. In prior situations they'd always intubated and pumped the stomach. Anyone who's a doctor know when to pump the stomach, and when to give charcoal?

All the times they gave charcoal to OD patients fascinated me, with the patients getting charcoal smears on their faces, because I had a difference experience myself. I OD'd on Tylenol and almost died around 13 years ago (long story, all is well now, although I'm sure I'll have liver problems in the future since I almost needed a transplant, oops), and from what I remember (most of my week in the ICU was a blur, admittedly), I got some clear liquid to drink every few hours and I think one of my many IVs had some other medication pumping into me that would cause me to puke everything out of my system. On the bright side (I have a sense of humor about it all), I didn't get charcoal stains on my face or clothes! ;)

[Ceindreadh]

7 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I remember in "Fathers and Sons" Doug bristling at Mark's suggestion that he "didn't miss much" by not having a father in his life. Doug said Mark's dad was a fine father and Mark needed to "get his head out of his ass." At the time I thought Doug was raw because Papa Ross was literally the World's Shittiest Dad but after seeing Mark's dad I think Doug was right. His dad isn't super warm and cuddly but he's pretty nice. I am glad his dad got to do some fun things before the cancer took his life. 

As for Cleo-bot sucking, Peter bought tickets to the jazz club but she doesn't want to go. Peter says "But Carter will be disappointed." Cleo-bot looked at him like he was from Mars and insisted on not going to the jazz club. The ways this sucks:

1) Peter just wasted money on the jazz club tickets

2) Peter saying "But Carter will be disappointed" should have made Cleo-bot change her mind. Because if she had human feelings, she'd know that Carter is important to Peter.

1. Maybe Peter should have asked Cleo if she’d like to go before buying the tickets. 

[debraran]

8 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I think until the mother got sick, and the old Admiral told Mark why his father came home to a desk, he didn't know his father dumped his career to help his son.     I think he was so angry through all of the years, that he simply didn't to do anything his father wanted him to.     I think the turning point was when the father was in the ER, and Mark talked the young doctor through saving the pilot, and right before that the dad was telling the pilot that the crash wasn't his fault showed Mark his dad wasn't cold and emotionless.    i think Mark always saw his mother as a victim of the heartless, career Navy dad, and then found out she wasn't the saint he thought she was.    When the mother came home and started telling Mark that his conception was a huge accident, she never wanted children, and the other things she said told him that things weren't the way he assumed it was.    

I think that happens in families more times than people know. You have perceptions and they are stubbornly set and sometimes later you hear about other issues you knew nothing about. I thought that was a realistic story and even Doug's, sometimes parents are never going to be "Norman Rockwell" and trying to have them fit the mold almost makes it worse. It's nice when the parent can say loudly, "It's me not you, it's not your fault" but it still stays with you. On a slightly different note, I remember an adult saying how she told a popular TV mom she wished she had her instead of her mother, and as she said why, she interrupted to tell her, she wasn't that mother, that mother was fiction, she was a working mother, away from her kids too often and had babysitters to fill in the time. Do not idolize her.  I think Mark wanted a different dad at some point but his dad was more than he thought and his realization slowly was a good script.

6 hours ago, Heathen said:

So if Sam and Alex went on the run to get away from Loser Steve, and then Luka convinced Sam to come back to Chicago from Louisville, where was Loser Steve afterward? Did he give up on "like the coolest job ever" and hit the road again? 

The writing by this point (season eleven) truly sucked. 

That storyline was one of the worst, how she went back and forth with her ex, taking her kid on the run all the time, finding jobs but her son never feeling settled. Then she'd let him back into her life and have him see their son. She never went to court or reported any abuse or really moved far but the whole thing to me was to make the last kidnapping/shooting "law and order" show a reality. I know these couldn't be the same writers as earlier.

[debraran]

7 hours ago, Heathen said:

Carter and Kem really didn't have any chemistry. I'll always be disappointed that TPTB forced that stupid storyline on us rather than leaving Carter with Debbie, the NGO worker with whom he did have chemistry. Carter/Debbie made sense; Carter/Kem never did. 

I agree, she seemed like a rich girl doing good like him, more in Paris than Africa at times, and that vague insinuation of a relationship with the guy at the Paris hospital seemed pretty clear to me. They showed their chemistry, laughter, etc. and the difference with Carter. Why they had him beat himself up with her, I don't know. I guess they didn't want a "happily ever after" ending but how about a new interest that might have possibilities in viewers minds, but not Kem.  At least my imagination had him staying and meeting someone else. ; )

I also thought (wonder what others think too) that Michelle Hurd they gave to Kerry as a love interest would have been a formidable one for Peter earlier. I could see her as a doc, PA, or administrator with enough chutzpah and charm to balance Peter's gruffness and be someone he could relate too.

Edited September 20, 2018 by debraran

[Growsonwalls]

6 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

All the times they gave charcoal to OD patients fascinated me, with the patients getting charcoal smears on their faces, because I had a difference experience myself. I OD'd on Tylenol and almost died around 13 years ago (long story, all is well now, although I'm sure I'll have liver problems in the future since I almost needed a transplant, oops), and from what I remember (most of my week in the ICU was a blur, admittedly), I got some clear liquid to drink every few hours and I think one of my many IVs had some other medication pumping into me that would cause me to puke everything out of my system. On the bright side (I have a sense of humor about it all), I didn't get charcoal stains on my face or clothes! ;)

Wow. First of all I'm glad you're okay. I do know that Tylenol is one of the easiest drugs to OD from because the jump from safe dose to LD50 is so steep and sudden. I do remember Mark treating a Tylenol overdose case and saying "Dammit why couldn't she have just taken sleeping pills?" 

[doodlebug]

11 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

So today's Yom Kippur which means I didn't have to go to work (perks of being a teacher). So I randomly picked one old episode to watch since I have been going through season 6. I ended up watching the season 3 episode "Faith." I had watched it on my first Hulu binge but rewatching it really underlined how much the show changed in three years. It was a quiet little episode where not much happens at all, but it was full of lovely moments. Doyle fighting so hard for the Down's syndrome girl Louise to get a heart transplant because her own brother has Down's syndrome. It was a brief scene but Doyle was so warm towards her brother (and different from her somewhat brusque work persona). Doyle's brother and Louise playing Jenga. Doug taking the ventilator from the CF boy who had turned 18 and wanted to die. Peter expressing remorse about Gant's death. Not much happens at all, just a regular day in the ER. Lovely episode. 

ETA: in season 6 Dr. Dave gives the girl who took too many pills charcoal. In prior situations they'd always intubated and pumped the stomach. Anyone who's a doctor know when to pump the stomach, and when to give charcoal?

Whether you use charcoal or pump the stomach is dependent on what the poison is that you're dealing with.  Some poisons could damage the esophagus, etc, coming back up, so you can't induce vomiting until it is neutralized with something like charcoal.  In general, the 'pumping the stomach' is done when the patient is not conscious enough to have vomiting induced and there would be too much risk of aspiration (stomach contents ending up in the lungs).  Otherwise, giving something like syrup of ipecac to induce vomiting is preferable

[txhorns79]

Quote

That storyline was one of the worst, how she went back and forth with her ex, taking her kid on the run all the time, finding jobs but her son never feeling settled. Then she'd let him back into her life and have him see their son. She never went to court or reported any abuse or really moved far but the whole thing to me was to make the last kidnapping/shooting "law and order" show a reality. I know these couldn't be the same writers as earlier.

I felt very much like the show like the show had no real idea how to handle that storyline.  Based on the history Sam gave, she was 15 and he was 23 when they got together, and I believe Sam said she was from Texas.  At best, the relationship was statutory rape, at worst, the guy is 23 and purposefully preying on vulnerable teenagers.  Why Sam would ever consider being in a relationship with him as an adult is beyond me.  And obviously, as the show went on he became worse and worse until we got to the idea that he could stage an absurdly elaborate plan to fake an injury, end up at County in a situation where he would be able to escape, kidnap both Sam and Alex and then flee into the night.    

[Growsonwalls]

9 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

Hmm, I interpreted that scene as not that she didn't want to go to the jazz club, but that she saw that Benton was preoccupied about Carter and maybe going to a jazz club wasn't really in his heart, so she suggested that maybe they should go somewhere where they could sit down and talk and be able to hear each other, since it seemed like he needed to get his concerns/stories about Carter off his chest to cope with everything that had happened. And then Peter saying that Carter would be disappointed was just a lighthearted (inside) joke (not that he was actually bummed about missing out on the jazz club) since Carter had told him earlier, "you know what happens at the jazz club!" (one of his funniest lines, just the way that he said it, haha). 

The jazz club convo is one of my favorite Carter/Benton moments. I love the tenderness in Peter's body language. Also Carter had become increasingly serious as his duties and responsibilities piled on. It was good to see the "young" Carter again. He's talking to Peter the way he'd tease a frat bro. And Peter was clearly going to put up with it because it was Carter. These two had such great chemistry and the love that Benton has for Carter always makes me so happy to watch. 

[RedbirdNelly]

9 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

Hmm, I interpreted that scene as not that she didn't want to go to the jazz club, but that she saw that Benton was preoccupied about Carter and maybe going to a jazz club wasn't really in his heart, so she suggested that maybe they should go somewhere where they could sit down and talk and be able to hear each other, since it seemed like he needed to get his concerns/stories about Carter off his chest to cope with everything that had happened. And then Peter saying that Carter would be disappointed was just a lighthearted (inside) joke (not that he was actually bummed about missing out on the jazz club) since Carter had told him earlier, "you know what happens at the jazz club!" (one of his funniest lines, just the way that he said it, haha). 

 

I'm no fan of Cleo but agree the Carter being disappointed part was a joke--not that Carter was expecting to meet them at the club (or was performing jazz and wanted Peter to come see). Carter was giving Peter a hard time about having a predicable dating step list.

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I felt very much like the show like the show had no real idea how to handle that storyline.  Based on the history Sam gave, she was 15 and he was 23 when they got together, and I believe Sam said she was from Texas.  At best, the relationship was statutory rape, at worst, the guy is 23 and purposefully preying on vulnerable teenagers.  Why Sam would ever consider being in a relationship with him as an adult is beyond me.  And obviously, as the show went on he became worse and worse until we got to the idea that he could stage an absurdly elaborate plan to fake an injury, end up at County in a situation where he would be able to escape, kidnap both Sam and Alex and then flee into the night.    

agreed it was terrible. The only scene that was good (out of a terrible plot) was when they open the van door and there is tied up Alex. Any mom would jump in the van then----but the whole thing dumb--and her having the rich private nurse thing on the side was kind of weird and just disappears.

In season 15 we meet Sam's mom and sister--I didn't remember sister existing so if I rewatch I'll be watching for inconsistencies on those fronts.

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 10:18 AM, Amethyst said:

I think the emotional fallout happened over the course of the season.  Alex had seen Sam kill Steve, but Alex couldn’t talk to anyone about it.  So he’s got all this pent up emotion and starts getting in trouble at school.  In the end, Sam sent him away to a school for at risk teens.  I think that’s the last we saw of him, thankfully.

Alex does show up in season 15 but he's no longer a mess and isn't annoying. Also can't remember if the "Alex almost dies because Stamos lets them go to  a party" storyline was before or after the school for troubled kids.

[Heathen]

4 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

Alex does show up in season 15 but he's no longer a mess and isn't annoying. Also can't remember if the "Alex almost dies because Stamos lets them go to  a party" storyline was before or after the school for troubled kids.

It was after. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Any mom would jump in the van then----but the whole thing dumb--and her having the rich private nurse thing on the side was kind of weird and just disappears.

I think the last time we saw the rich guy was when Sam contacted him from the road after she killed Steve.  I don't think he or the job Sam had with him is ever mentioned again after that episode. 

Edited September 20, 2018 by txhorns79

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I think the last time we saw the rich guy was when Sam contacted him from the road after she killed Steve.  I don't think he or the job Sam had with him is ever mentioned again after that episode. 

He was with her when she met with the police or assistant district attorney*; he had a major effect, IMO, on Sam not being charged even though the police/ADA knew her story wasn't adding up. 

*It would have made sense for it to be the police, but considering how little sense ER made at that point, it was probably the state attorney general! 

[RedbirdNelly]

53 minutes ago, Heathen said:

He was with her when she met with the police or assistant district attorney*; he had a major effect, IMO, on Sam not being charged even though the police/ADA knew her story wasn't adding up. 

*It would have made sense for it to be the police, but considering how little sense ER made at that point, it was probably the state attorney general! 

him disappearing after that just made the entire thing weirder. Not as weird as the Ed Asner bizarre long con of Carter story arc, but still pretty odd.

and so true on your * note.

[Growsonwalls]

The episodes where Carter's returning to work despite the pain and addicted to painkillers really hits home with me. About 8 years ago I needed to have major abdominal surgery and didn't have the vacation days to recuperate properly, so I returned to work and became addicted to percocets. Thankfully it was only for a few months and I was able to get off the percocets with the help of imodium, ambien, and some benzos but I wish people knew that most people who get addicted to painkillers do so not because we're bad people but because of a combo of needing to work, pain, and not knowing how to manage that pain.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

Happy anniversary of ER's premiere! It premiered today, 24 years ago. (yikes!)

[Growsonwalls]

I'm watching "Viable Options" and I have to laugh that Kerry was suspended because she cared about a terminally ill patient and went all "fuck the rules" and incurred the wrath of Romano, the same Kerry who reamed Doug out for detoxing the baby because he thought it was the right thing to do and went all "fuck the rules." 

I also thought both Luka and Chen way overstepped their bounds. Luka wanted to block the guy from getting a kidney transplant when it wasn't his call to make, and Chen wanted to tell the daughter about her dad's Huntingdon's disease when that wasn't her call to make either. I guess this is where the show loses me because  Ming-Na Wen doesn't really have the acting chops to act like she is doing this because she Really Cares. Neither does Michael Michele when she gets angry at Carter over the diabetic boy. 

Mark, Weaver, Doug, Carter, Benton, Romano (the old-school ER team) could really sell those stories because despite their personal weaknesses because you always sensed the passion behind their work. But Chen and Cleo-bot both give off the vibe that they have a 9-to-5 job.

[Dr.OO7]

10 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I'm watching "Viable Options" and I have to laugh that Kerry was suspended because she cared about a terminally ill patient and went all "fuck the rules" and incurred the wrath of Romano, the same Kerry who reamed Doug out for detoxing the baby because he thought it was the right thing to do and went all "fuck the rules." 

Her hypocrisy was always mind-blowing. You would think there would be even the tiniest bit of insight--"I don't agree with anything Doug did, but I can understand why he did it.", but no. A few episodes later, she's right back to yelling at Carol for breaking the rules herself.

[txhorns79]

Am I wrong, or does Carter's Cousin Chase's apartment from Season 4 get reconfigured into Luka's place a few seasons later?  I noticed both places appear to have the same fireplace. 

Quote

I also thought both Luka and Chen way overstepped their bounds. Luka wanted to block the guy from getting a kidney transplant when it wasn't his call to make, and Chen wanted to tell the daughter about her dad's Huntingdon's disease when that wasn't her call to make either. I guess this is where the show loses me because  Ming-Na Wen doesn't really have the acting chops to act like she is doing this because she Really Cares. Neither does Michael Michele when she gets angry at Carter over the diabetic boy. 

 

I think the doctors can be at their worst when they decide they know better than their patients what the patient wants. 

Edited September 23, 2018 by txhorns79

[Growsonwalls]

That woman who had five kids in seven years and was pregnant again and had the abortion really gave off Andrea Yates vibes. Or rather, the husband gave off Rusty Yates vibes. Like the wife is clearly overwhelmed and right after the abortion they immediately want to "try" again? It was one of the more quietly hair-curling moments in ER. I hope that young mother found some way to get her husband to agree to family planning.

[Amethyst]

I remember that mother, it was one of the few times I sided with Abby.  The fact that the mother was relieved that her husband “forgave” her... talk about disturbing.  I didn’t know which was worse: her actually trying to have another baby, or her being married to a man who only saw her as a breeding machine for his children.  I pitied that poor woman.

[Growsonwalls]

14 hours ago, Camille said:

Her hypocrisy was always mind-blowing. You would think there would be even the tiniest bit of insight--"I don't agree with anything Doug did, but I can understand why he did it.", but no. A few episodes later, she's right back to yelling at Carol for breaking the rules herself.

Well I have to admit it was an infuriating part of Kerry BUT it did show that Kerry was a very different PERSON than she was a manager. And that was very consistent throughout the series. She was a nightmare boss/manager/co-worker. But there were many signs that when Kerry was off-duty, she was a lovely lady. She was an excellent roommate for Carter, making him healthy juice mixes and rocking out on music. And when it came to her own patients and people she cared about she went above and beyond and was also like "fuck the rules." It's too bad she never had the self-awareness and empathy to see that other doctors could also have strong consciences and be all like "fuck the rules, I'm doing the right thing" when she herself went rogue many times. THE VERY EPISODE where she comes back from her suspension she yells at Abby for trying to get a bone marrow match from the sister.

As I watch Season 6 I'm loving Mark's dad more and more. It's too bad Mark never built a relationship with his dad until he was dying of cancer because his dad was really funny in that gruff military kind of way. I love when he says "This is Dr. Elizabeth Corday. She and my son are ... I don't know what you call it nowadays? Friends?" Heh. I overall love the Mark-takes-care-of-his-dad storyline. Because John Cullum did some great work and I love how everyone else besides Mark who's met Mark's dad thinks his dad is great. I cried when he said "The day you became a doctor was the proudest day of my life."

The writing for Abby is wildly inconsistent. She's a med student but they often have her handling cases all by herself, and unlike Carter/Benton, Lucy/Carter, Abby doesn't seem to have a regular teacher nor a point person who can sign off on her charts. I also can;t believe that she in Episode 19 she's doing her first intubation but she was cleared to do that abdomen drain that ended up killing the patient. It's like the doctors can't decide whether she's a med student or a doctor.

ETA: I can't believe that with the case of the sexually abused girl Cleo was just taking pictures of her pelvis while Dr. Dave was attacking the dad and reading her the story. In the old days Doug would have all three of those things. Cleo-bot is seriously the most unpediatrician-like pediatrician ever. 

Edited September 23, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Growsonwalls]

10 hours ago, Amethyst said:

I remember that mother, it was one of the few times I sided with Abby.  The fact that the mother was relieved that her husband “forgave” her... talk about disturbing.  I didn’t know which was worse: her actually trying to have another baby, or her being married to a man who only saw her as a breeding machine for his children.  I pitied that poor woman.

I also thought it was disturbing that she was trying to induce a miscarriage by starving herself and the husband didn't even seem to notice. So your wife is pregnant but sickly thin and not eating and that doesn't set off alarm bells? It really reminds me of that case Margaret Sanger said made her want to start planned parenthood, when a woman who'd had another botched abortion begged the doctor for some help about how to prevent pregnancy and the doctor said "tell your husband to sleep on the roof."

[debraran]

6 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

 

As I watch Season 6 I'm loving Mark's dad more and more. It's too bad Mark never built a relationship with his dad until he was dying of cancer because his dad was really funny in that gruff military kind of way. I love when he says "This is Dr. Elizabeth Corday. She and my son are ... I don't know what you call it nowadays? Friends?" Heh. I overall love the Mark-takes-care-of-his-dad storyline. Because John Cullum did some great work and I love how everyone else besides Mark who's met Mark's dad thinks his dad is great. I cried when he said "The day you became a doctor was the proudest day of my life."

The writing for Abby is wildly inconsistent. She's a med student but they often have her handling cases all by herself, and unlike Carter/Benton, Lucy/Carter, Abby doesn't seem to have a regular teacher nor a point person who can sign off on her charts. I also can;t believe that she in Episode 19 she's doing her first intubation but she was cleared to do that abdomen drain that ended up killing the patient. It's like the doctors can't decide whether she's a med student or a doctor.

 

I loved that too and his dad dating Elizabeth's mom. : )  He was a nice compliment to Mark's personality.

Abby was crazy and they just winged it with her a lot. She really got tiring for me. The constant angst was unbearable when binging and not having weeks apart.  As I posted in another thread I thought it was funny seeing her in The Good Wife and the first line I remember her saying was "I don't think people can change" It was so Abby, so reminiscent of her last date with Carter.

[doodlebug]

9 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Well I have to admit it was an infuriating part of Kerry BUT it did show that Kerry was a very different PERSON than she was a manager. And that was very consistent throughout the series. She was a nightmare boss/manager/co-worker. But there were many signs that when Kerry was off-duty, she was a lovely lady. She was an excellent roommate for Carter, making him healthy juice mixes and rocking out on music. 

Kerry was Carter’s landlady, not his room mate.  I’d disagree that she was all that wonderful to him. I recall her screeching at him to get up prior to making the green smoothie thingy.  It looked to me like she was used to getting up very early and drinking her shakes and decided that, since he was living there, he should conform to her schedule and her tastes.  I didn’t get the impression that he wanted to get up at the crack of dawn nor that he wanted to drink the green smoothie, but, since she was his boss, he went along.  She did play Grace Jones and had an extensive CD collection which she told him not to touch. Then, once she got her big promotion, she tossed him out on his ear, acting like she was doing him a favor by giving him 2 weeks to find a new place.  I thought her behavior there was pretty comparable to her behavior at work: rigid, controlling and always looking out for herself.

[txhorns79]

Quote

She did play Grace Jones and had an extensive CD collection which she told him not to touch. Then, once she got her big promotion, she tossed him out on his ear, acting like she was doing him a favor by giving him 2 weeks to find a new place.  I thought her behavior there was pretty comparable to her behavior at work: rigid, controlling and always looking out for herself.

I agree.  In some ways, the role of Kerry is pretty thankless, so kudos to Laura Innes for making her more human at times than the writing allowed.  I mean, I do sympathize with Kerry at times.  She is in charge, so she's responsible if things really fall apart on her watch, so has to run a tight ship.  For example, when Doug decided to do the rapid detox on the baby without letting anyone know what was happening, if that had gone really wrong, you could bet Kerry would have been reamed out for not knowing what was happening in her own department.  

And for all the talk of Romano and Lizzie's relationship, he's pretty horrible to her in Season 4.  He essentially punishes her for not wanting to date him and telling a lie about seeing Peter.  He's pretty awful.   

[Growsonwalls]

8 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I agree.  In some ways, the role of Kerry is pretty thankless, so kudos to Laura Innes for making her more human at times than the writing allowed.  I mean, I do sympathize with Kerry at times.  She is in charge, so she's responsible if things really fall apart on her watch, so has to run a tight ship.  For example, when Doug decided to do the rapid detox on the baby without letting anyone know what was happening, if that had gone really wrong, you could bet Kerry would have been reamed out for not knowing what was happening in her own department.  

And for all the talk of Romano and Lizzie's relationship, he's pretty horrible to her in Season 4.  He essentially punishes her for not wanting to date him and telling a lie about seeing Peter.  He's pretty awful.   

I think Kerry in her own weird awkward way was trying to bond with Carter. Laura Innes really made Kerry a human, complex villain. Even when I wanted to bitchslap Kerry I always remembered the moments when she was really lovely. 

As for Romano, I agree he was awful in Season 4 with the harassment of Corday and in Season 5 he sexually harassed Maggie Doyle too. However I feel like this is a case where Paul McCrane needed awhile before he had enough agency with the writers to make Romano a more complex character. For instance I noticed that the trademark Romano wisecracks don't really show up till maybe Season 5 and 6. And as I said, Romano's most human moment was probably in "Be Still My Heart/All in the Family" in which we not only met his adorable dog, but the hard-charging surgeon couldn't even stay upright after Lucy's surgery and was leaning against the walls.  

I notice that with several characters, it took awhile for the actors to have enough agency to put themselves into the characters. For instance go back and watch the early episodes of Season 1. "Doug Ross" is a pretty serious guy without any of George Clooney's trademark giggle, humor, or love of pranks/wisecracks. Doug didn't become funny until maybe midway through season 1.

[txhorns79]

Quote

As for Romano, I agree he was awful in Season 4 with the harassment of Corday and in Season 5 he sexually harassed Maggie Doyle too. However I feel like this is a case where Paul McCrane needed awhile before he had enough agency with the writers to make Romano a more complex character. For instance I noticed that the trademark Romano wisecracks don't really show up till maybe Season 5 and 6. And as I said, Romano's most human moment was probably in "Be Still My Heart/All in the Family" in which we not only met his adorable dog, but the hard-charging surgeon couldn't even stay upright after Lucy's surgery and was leaning against the walls.

Eh, I think Romano was a character who had some nice moments of humanity, mixed in with a huge amount of sexism, homophobia and general bigotry.  Mind you, I thought the idea that no one seemed to even care that he was dead, except Corday, was over the top. 

[Peace 47]

The talk about Benton and Carter on the previous page led me to this article from a few months ago, where Allen Sepinwall reminisced about their relationship (his apparent favorite) during his Hulu rewatch of the first part of the series.  Maybe you all already talked about the article back then, but further to the posts above, it also nicely sums up Romano in a footnote (which for some reason I can’t cut and paste on my phone into a quote box).

Sepinwall said that Romano went from nuanced character to a “straw man villain” and then was eventually “stalked and killed by a family of cruel and vengeful helicopters.” ?  (My phone also autocorrected my misspelling of “nuanced character” to “minced character,” which is also sadly appropriate.)

Edited September 24, 2018 by Peace 47

[Growsonwalls]

@Peace 47 that's a great article, thanks for the link. I agree that Romano's death by helicopter (after amputation by helicopter) was one of the most ridiculous send-offs ever. This ridiculousness gets a nod in this article about the Best and Worst of ER. The writer has this to say:

Quote

Worst mass casualty: After season 10's "Freefall," it's a wonder that the phrase "jumping the shark" wasn't replaced with "falling under the helicopter." A season earlier, the writers had chopped Rocket Romano's arm off with an errant helicopter blade, and here -- apparently feeling that wasn't enough chopper-related misery to visit on the once-complex, now two-dimensionally villainous surgeon -- they drop a second helicopter on him. There are parts of "Freefall" that could have been classic "ER" moments (notably Susan Lewis discovering that paramedic boyfriend Chuck didn't die in the crash), but they're completely overshadowed by the ridiculous, mean-spirited, death of Romano.

But thankfully YT has some clips of Romano when he was actually a 3-dimensional character:

Romano does surgery on his dog because he refuses to take Gretel to a "poodle doctor":

 

Romano looks the other way about Benton performing surgery on the girl who needed facial surgery:

 

Romano shows a tender moment with Reese:

 

And finally, Romano loses it after Lucy's death:

Edited September 24, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[debraran]

I agree, Romano was underused and even "under the influence of drugs" couldn't explain such bad writing toward his demise. The prosthetic hand being taken away (he didn't deliberately grab anyone, he hadn't trained long enough) from a nurse and then hidden like he was 5 was another ludicrous and demeaning to the viewer, moment. This wasn't a comedy and SNL segment.  Someone wrote a lot of Romano one liners that were funny and times he showed humanity but were overshadowed by other things going on. Even the ice cream/pizza moment after he told Lizzy, "Do you really need it?"and sent it to her later.  The snark comments about skills in ER (when you knew he admired them on some level) Dr. Robert Romano : What the hell did you use to make this incision, a chainsaw?  The actor didn't understand why they wouldn't make him more dimensional but they did give him directing time later. Some actors got to do both though.

Nice link, thanks for sharing.

[Growsonwalls]

Another character they didn't bother to develop was Malucci. In Season 6 I thought he had a lot of potential as a character. He was sort of a jerk, and could be careless, but he had some really kind moments. I mentioned when he took the "last message" for a dying patient and wrote it down on a box of gloves and then reading that message even though the patient already died. But he was also always nice to Carol's twins, he was way better with kids than Cleo, and he had a sense of humor. He even read Green Eggs and Ham to a girl who had been sexually abused.

By season 7 they just made him All Asshole All the Time. Ugh. 

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 9:54 AM, Growsonwalls said:

Well I have to admit it was an infuriating part of Kerry BUT it did show that Kerry was a very different PERSON than she was a manager. And that was very consistent throughout the series. She was a nightmare boss/manager/co-worker. But there were many signs that when Kerry was off-duty, she was a lovely lady. She was an excellent roommate for Carter, making him healthy juice mixes and rocking out on music. And when it came to her own patients and people she cared about she went above and beyond and was also like "fuck the rules." It's too bad she never had the self-awareness and empathy to see that other doctors could also have strong consciences and be all like "fuck the rules, I'm doing the right thing" when she herself went rogue many times. THE VERY EPISODE where she comes back from her suspension she yells at Abby for trying to get a bone marrow match from the sister.

As I watch Season 6 I'm loving Mark's dad more and more. It's too bad Mark never built a relationship with his dad until he was dying of cancer because his dad was really funny in that gruff military kind of way. I love when he says "This is Dr. Elizabeth Corday. She and my son are ... I don't know what you call it nowadays? Friends?" Heh. I overall love the Mark-takes-care-of-his-dad storyline. Because John Cullum did some great work and I love how everyone else besides Mark who's met Mark's dad thinks his dad is great. I cried when he said "The day you became a doctor was the proudest day of my life."

 

chiming in on Kerry---she was one of the better handled characters (and well acted). She did have this soft and admirable side but also this jerk side that couldn't help but show up from time to time. Sadly, there are plenty of real life people like that. Just when you are starting to warm up to them, they resort to jerk behavior and you remember why you didn't like them. I love the part with her and Carter living together--you think she's going to say "feel free to listen to my CDs" and instead tells him to ask first and that she had to make a strict rule on that (like he's a kindergartener) and then kicking him out when she gets promoted. Classic Kerry.

Mark's dad was an awesome character and so well acted. I love the Thanksgiving episode when he ends up having to go shop for pads/tampons when Rachel gets her period. It's hilarious. The show did a great job with Mark and his dad, gradually understanding each other better. I, too, teared up with "The day you became a doctor was the proudest day of my life.". I'm glad this was not one of those storylines where it turns out the dad was an abuser so we can't be ok with the reconciliation. It's also very real life (especially for those generations) for father's and son's to be on different pages. I saw some of that with my grandpa (who was an awesome grandpa but an average dad who dropped the ball in some major ways (without being abusive), but pretty typical for his generation) and my dad.

[Growsonwalls]

5 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

Mark's dad was an awesome character and so well acted. I love the Thanksgiving episode when he ends up having to go shop for pads/tampons when Rachel gets her period. It's hilarious. The show did a great job with Mark and his dad, gradually understanding each other better. I, too, teared up with "The day you became a doctor was the proudest day of my life.". I'm glad this was not one of those storylines where it turns out the dad was an abuser so we can't be ok with the reconciliation. It's also very real life (especially for those generations) for father's and son's to be on different pages. I saw some of that with my grandpa (who was an awesome grandpa but an average dad who dropped the ball in some major ways (without being abusive), but pretty typical for his generation) and my dad.

That was hilarious, Mark's dad was so befuddled by all the different types of pads. "Light pads, overnight pads, pantiliners, scented pads ..." 

Another great moment with Mark's dad was him giving Elizabeth the pearl necklace and then chiding Mark "Don't just stand there! Help her put it on!"

One of the sad things about David was that I don't think he was aware of how much Mark disliked him. I think he would have been crushed to hear that Mark felt so much distance from his dad. I think David always just attributed Mark not visiting or calling that much to him being busy in med school/residency/marriage. I think he went to his grave secure that he and his son had a good relationship and he was proud of his son. It's good that Mark finally got to a place where he was the loving son David always thought he was.

I think the first sign that David Greene wasn't a bad guy was in "Fathers and Sons" when Mark complained that in the summers his dad would always insist on a family vacation to visit a national park. You could sense Doug's anger at Mark complaining that his dad took him on summer vacations to national parks, when Doug's dad never did shit for his son.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Growsonwalls