All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

I also don't think it's realistic that Jeanie was essentially hired as a health aide for Scott. Don't believe that the chief surgeon of a hospital wouldn't have had a private health aide already for Scott if Anspaugh couldn't be home as often as he wanted as Scott had been sick many times before. Nevertheless the Jeanie/Scott storyline is very lovely so I don't mind it.

When Scott was first seen on ER, he had been in remission from his lymphoma for more than a year and was in school, so I can see why he wouldn't have had a regular medical attendant at that point.  He was in school and had abdominal pain and the school apparently called Anspaugh who asked that he be sent to the ER for evaluation, so I can buy that Mark was the one who saw him there.  He'd presumably been healthy for quite a while, I don't think Anspaugh was thinking that a recurrence of his cancer was the most likely diagnosis at that moment, so ruling out other stuff in the ER made sense.

Jeannie, as a PA, would be making a 6 figure salary in the ER and there would be no reason that Scott would need that level of home care; so, either Anspaugh paid her way more than the going rate for home health aides or she did it for a fraction of her usual hourly wage.  Of course, back in season 1, when she was still a physical therapist, Benton, a resident, paid her to be an aide for his mom which is even less believable.  The Scott/Jeannie storyline was beautiful though; Gloria Reubens and the young actor playing Scotty were terrific together.

[Bastet]

Oh my, I don't remember Anna's anti-abortion shit at all; I must have repressed it because I liked her.  Maria Bello is Catholic, too, but fiercely pro-choice, so I wonder what that was like for her.

[WendyCR72]

I realize many liked the potential for Anna/Carter and liked Anna, but me? I always thought she was abrupt, bitchy, and cold. The only example I can recall of her not being uptight about everything was, ironically, "Exodus", as the chaos would have lent easily for that. But she actually helped Carter with a diagnosis and smiled a bit.

Maybe had she acted like that more often, I would have been sorry to see her go. As it was, though, I didn't care. And while ethically I did get her point in her argument with Carter about self-infusing the rapist with his own blood versus a transfusion, morally, I can't say I disagreed at all with Carter.

One I was sorry to see go was Maggie Doyle. But I guess Jorja Fox got the better end since she would end up on CSI not long after...

[Growsonwalls]

31 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Oh my, I don't remember Anna's anti-abortion shit at all; I must have repressed it because I liked her.  Maria Bello is Catholic, too, but fiercely pro-choice, so I wonder what that was like for her.

I think Maria Bello was pretty vocal and she asked to be released from her ER contract because of her unhappiness with the way her character was written. She said "there was nothing for [her] to do on that show except be another doctor." I kind of felt that leaving after one season gave the writers no room to develop her character. Anna/Carter definitely had potential. I guess I'm just comparing Anna to all the other Carter love interests that never worked on ER afterwards. But one gets the feeling that Belllo's ER experience wasn't all that happy. Ironically she's now a regular on another long-running show (NCIS) that has really jumped the shark. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Dr.OO7]

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I realize many liked the potential for Anna/Carter and liked Anna, but me? I always thought she was abrupt, bitchy, and cold. 

Same here. A lot of interesting threads were dropped, but never developed. It would have been nice to know why she was always so defensive about sexism, why she had this holier-than-thou attitude about rich people, etc.

[izabella]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I feel like becoming a regular requires every character to take some kind of blood oath agreeing to be overwhelmed with personal problems.  Just with Abby, she had a bipolar mother, bipolar brother, alcoholism, hysterectomy, an affair, being beaten by her abusive neighbor, having to date Carter and money problems.  I will also say it was a little annoying to have them make a big deal of Abby wanting a job as an attending at County in Season 14, only for her to immediately abandon the job in Season 15. 

As the seasons went on, they must have felt they had to increase the drama to keep viewers interested, and to compete with other shows which were also amping up the pace of the drama.

[debraran]

9 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Well "Gut Reaction" was such a perfect mix of light and heavy in one ER episode. I loved the humor of Carter doing Anna's bone marrow transplant, Anna friendzoning Carter, the on-the-fly "banquet" that ended up being great, and the flirtation of Peter and Corday. That was juxtaposed with Scott's agonizing choice to stop chemo, the botched surgery and finger-pointing between Benton and Morgenstern, and the conflict between Gamma and Carter. 

I loved the banquet for the silliest reason: it was nice to see all the staff out of their iconic scrubs and in evening clothes. Mark and Jerry in particular cleaned up nice. I also loved how that speech was so Mark: awkward but heartfelt. And the whole banquet singing "That's Amore!" to Mark was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen on ER. 

You know this is neither here nor there but in the wake of the infamous Alicia/Kalinda spliced together scene in The Good Wife I started noticing one of the great things about ER was the long takes with both actors clearly on camera together. There's very little of the use of body doubles in dialogue scenes, and I think that gave classic ER its authenticity. It felt like the actors were really talking to each other, rather than a camera and stand-in. 

Could the Alicia/Kalinda thing been from the rumors of them really not getting along. Rumor had it Julianne wasn't the easiest to get along with on the set but again, it could be true or just exaggerated.  Archie was classy, you don't put down others if you want to keep working and the other actor is more popular, but I think enough is implied. Not saying anything nice is like saying something not nice, unlike ER which was 90% a happy set.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/archie-panjabi-finally-addresses-good-wife-controversy-in-the-most-frustrating-way

Edited September 3, 2018 by debraran

[Growsonwalls]

2 hours ago, debraran said:

Could the Alicia/Kalinda thing been from the rumors of them really not getting along. Rumor had it Julianne wasn't the easiest to get along with on the set but again, it could be true or just exaggerated.  Archie was classy, you don't put down others if you want to keep working and the other actor is more popular, but I think enough is implied. Not saying anything nice is like saying something not nice, unlike ER which was 90% a happy set.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/archie-panjabi-finally-addresses-good-wife-controversy-in-the-most-frustrating-way

I have heard the rumors of the cast of The Good Wife not getting along, and Archie Panjabi and Julianna Marguiles REALLY not getting along. With that being said the Archie/Kalinda oddball friendship had a big fanbase on The Good Wife and that was when producers needed to say "I don't care if you two ladies can't even be in the same award show red carpet together. Suck it up and film scenes together because that's your fucking job." I mean the cast of Sex and the City hated each other but they sucked it up and even made two movies together, just sayin' ...

I feel like ER in the first half of the series mostly respected its fans and so relationships that had a big fanbase (Carter/Benton, Carol/Doug, Mark/Doug, Kerry/Jeanie) were satisfied with plenty of wonderful scenes. But then again you're right -- this could be due to the fact that the main cast of ER actually got along.

[txhorns79]

Quote

As the seasons went on, they must have felt they had to increase the drama to keep viewers interested, and to compete with other shows which were also amping up the pace of the drama.

I agree.  I do think the success of Grey's Anatomy definitely was felt on ER in the later seasons.  Though whenever I see the female characters with their long, gorgeous hair dangling all over the place on ER, I just want to yell at them to tie it back.  Can you just imagine if you are an emergency patient and your doctor's hair is all over you while she is trying to examine you?   

Edited September 3, 2018 by txhorns79

[Growsonwalls]

Ok just saw the "Shades of Gray" episode. My god they managed to fall into every TV trope about abortion in one episode. First of all, Anna refusing to finish the abortion on the woman when her pulse was dropping and she was coding would have been grounds for immediate dismissal. She put both the life of the infant AND the mother at risk and if Kerry wasn't there both would have been dead. Very pro-life to have the mother and baby be dead. Also have a hard time believing that Kerry the hardass would have let that pass with nothing more than a talking-to. And then when the woman came to, she ended up being a total bitch and thus they stereotyped women who wanted abortions as selfish and awful.

But if Anna had some deep moral conviction against abortion and was some sort of Operation Rescue type person I could ALMOST understand it. But when Anna spoke to that protester she became very irate and angry and told the protester that she was inciting violence. 

Bleh, I hated that storyline. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Peace 47]

15 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I feel like becoming a regular requires every character to take some kind of blood oath agreeing to be overwhelmed with personal problems.  Just with Abby, she had a bipolar mother, bipolar brother, alcoholism, hysterectomy, an affair, being beaten by her abusive neighbor, having to date Carter and money problems.  I will also say it was a little annoying to have them make a big deal of Abby wanting a job as an attending at County in Season 14, only for her to immediately abandon the job in Season 15. 

I love that you threw having to date Carter in there as a personal problem.

For Carter, my favorite love interest was Dr. Keaton because I think they were the most sympatico in their approach to work and life (although Carter probably would have wanted kids eventually so maybe they could never have lasted).  And there was probably a bad power differential between Keaton and Carter that I didn’t appreciate when I watched this show as a teenager.

I was excited when Abby appeared as Carol’s OB nurse because I loved Maura Tierney on NewsRadio and was glad to see her pop up again.  I liked Abby’s med student arc (including not having the funds to pay for it and having to go back to nursing for awhile).  I liked how she was the one who discovered that Carter was using and had to report him (can you imagine how difficult that would be as a med student???).

I even liked that she was a recovering alcoholic, but does every single recovering alcoholic have to relapse on TV dramas?  Some people do manage to avoid relapse in their lives, and it’s just so predictable in TV shows.  And I never found it believable that Abby would cheat on Luka (not that I was much of a shipper of them, but sleeping around drunkenly never seemed to be Abby’s vice in the way that it was Luka’s during his dark days).  I also didn’t necessaily buy that Abby struggled academically in med school and needed Neela’s help (although I did love their friendship and wish that had been explored more in ways that the early days friendships were explored among other characters).  Abby was extremely intelligent and shown to be a good med student off the bat, so I didn’t like that step backwards for her.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Peace 47

[debraran]

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I have heard the rumors of the cast of The Good Wife not getting along, and Archie Panjabi and Julianna Marguiles REALLY not getting along. With that being said the Archie/Kalinda oddball friendship had a big fanbase on The Good Wife and that was when producers needed to say "I don't care if you two ladies can't even be in the same award show red carpet together. Suck it up and film scenes together because that's your fucking job." I mean the cast of Sex and the City hated each other but they sucked it up and even made two movies together, just sayin' ...

I feel like ER in the first half of the series mostly respected its fans and so relationships that had a big fanbase (Carter/Benton, Carol/Doug, Mark/Doug, Kerry/Jeanie) were satisfied with plenty of wonderful scenes. But then again you're right -- this could be due to the fact that the main cast of ER actually got along.

The Golden Girls was wildly popular and fans were shocked to hear some of them didn't like each other or talk off the set.  Fred and Ethel from I Love Lucy hated each other but they were professionals and I'm sorry to say, TV and movies today have a lot of unprofessional babies that feel they are in nursery school instead of a set. Get over it, nothing is that horrible and if it is, let the PTB know.

[starri]

11 minutes ago, debraran said:

Fred and Ethel from I Love Lucy hated each other but they were professionals

There's an old, old urban legend that I really want to be true where Vivian Vance was out having dinner in a restaurant when she found out William Frawley had died.  The story goes that she exclaimed "Champagne for everyone!"  He was apparently an awful person.

Lauren Graham and Scott Patterson LOATHED each other.

[jewel21]

Clayne Crawford and Marlon Wayans hated each other so much on Lethal Weapon that the replaced Crawford. It's annoying. I've loathed people I've worked with but I still tried to be a professional about it and did my job. These actors are being paid a lot of money and need to suck it up and do their damn jobs. 

[ch1]

1 hour ago, jewel21 said:

Clayne Crawford and Marlon Wayans hated each other so much on Lethal Weapon that the replaced Crawford. It's annoying. I've loathed people I've worked with but I still tried to be a professional about it and did my job. These actors are being paid a lot of money and need to suck it up and do their damn jobs. 

I agree with this.  Sometimes actors have TOO much of a say.  As you say do your job and go home.  You’re working together not living with each other.

[Growsonwalls]

So is the pattern of the second half of Season 4 "one great episode one lousy one"? Because after "Shades of Gray" which was awful "Of Past Regret and Future Fear" was just about perfect. The man dying of chemical burns and not connecting with his daughter was heartbreaking, the failed "date" between Corday and Romano hilarious and icky at the same time, and I'm glad the show addressed the elderly couple being HIV+ because I do remember back then there was shock that people in nursing homes were getting AIDS. Also the methadone baby really foreshadowed the opiate crisis in the US. I guess it was pretty bad back then too. 

On the personal front I was dismayed but not surprised that Gamma Carter couldn't really understand why John Truman Carter III would want to work as a doctor permanently, the Benton/Corday relationship was adorable (too bad Eriq La Salle nixed it before it developed further), and I'm glad that Carol finally apologized with no ands, ifs or buts for kissing the paramedic. Even though she and Doug have been reconciled for awhile now after that incident still nice that she apologized in full.

ETA: just saw this episode was directed by Anthony Edwards. Good for him.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[izabella]

18 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

the Benton/Corday relationship was adorable (too bad Eriq La Salle nixed it before it developed further),

I haven't heard this story.  Why did he do that?

[txhorns79]

Quote

I haven't heard this story.  Why did he do that?

From what I recall, he didn't want his character having a good relationship with a white woman, after having difficult relationships with black women.  Here is an article from the time about the topic.

Edited September 3, 2018 by txhorns79

[Bastet]

The first time this came up, I looked up old quotes.  Now, it's just quicker to quote myself than go looking for his quotes again:

I liked Benton and Corday together, but that relationship didn't exist in a vacuum, and I thus don't take issue with LaSalle's objections to it.  There weren't exactly a plethora of black couples on top-rated prime time shows back then.  I remembered the gist of what he said, but went back to look at old articles for specifics.  He said he liked working with Alex Kingston and liked the relationship, but in context he just was not comfortable with the message it was sending to the show's large black audience:

"As an African American man, it becomes a bit offensive if the negative things [in relationships between black characters] are all you’re showing.  Because in real life, we romance and get on each other’s nerves and laugh and do all the things that any other race of people do.  So if the only time you show a balanced relationship is in an interracial relationship, whether it’s conscious or sub-conscious, it sends a message I’m not comfortable with.

“They were sending a message that I didn’t want to be a part of, which was the only time that this man becomes human and tender and vulnerable and open is when he falls in love with a white woman.”

“[Of] the two relationships that I had prior to Corday, one was an adulterous relationship with Jeanie Boulet and then the next relationship I got into was with Carla.  And unfortunately the writing there was, every time you see them they’re either fighting or fucking.”

(In another interview, he said the same thing: "We have to take care of the message that we're sending as African Americans . . . that we have the exact same type of exchanges with our mates that we get to see our white counterparts have.")

[Growsonwalls]

I understand LaSalle's arguments but I also think that by doing that he sort of shot himself in the foot. His relationship with Cleo was dull as dishwater. And Corday's relationship with Mark was even worse. 

But here's the thing. Benton was shown having a very negative interaction with Dennis Gant, an African American intern, while his relationship with country club rich lily white John Truman Carter III became one of the iconic TV friendships, so much so that when I went to YT I found dozens and dozens of Carter/Benton tributes. 

So I wonder if there was actually some backstage tension between LaSalle and Kingston that neither actors wanted to talk about which is why the romance was nixed. Whereas La Salle and Noah Wyle to this day remain close friends so they obviously did not have a problem working together and shooting many scenes together.

Eriq La Salle's instagram by the way is great for Carter/Benton fans. 

[Peace 47]

I don’t really think that there was any ulterior motive behind LaSalle’s stance other than his stated views on wanting to project a healthy relationship in an underrepresented group.  The one thing is, though, no one (or very, very few) couples stayed happy over the long haul on ER.  So it’s unlikely that a happy, long-term relationship between Corday and Benton would have lasted (just look how Corday and Greene eventually broke down).  It would have been fun to see the Corday/ Benton honeymoon phase continue just a little longer because they were really good together.

There weren’t that many lead character interracial relationships on TV at the time, either, so it would have also been nice to see one play out (if they proved to have the staying power of a Doug/Carol, for example).  I truly hated Corday/ Greene, too, so anything that would have spared us that relationship would have been good in my book.

[Dr.OO7]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

From what I recall, he didn't want his character having a good relationship with a white woman, after having difficult relationships with black wome

Understandable, but it wasn't a good relationship. The only negative message that I (an African-American female who is presumably the most offended at such a relationship) got was:

"If you're in an interracial relationship, be sure to treat your partner even worse than usual. Because your usual ineptness at relationships isn't bad enough, you have to be ashamed of this one because he/she is of a different race."

Ironically, I think their relationship was doomed regardless. He was just much too reserved and serious for someone as vivacious and fun-loving as her. It's very telling that Cleo was basically the female version of him.

[Growsonwalls]

11 minutes ago, Camille said:

Ironically, I think their relationship was doomed regardless. He was just much too reserved and serious for someone as vivacious and fun-loving as her. It's very telling that Cleo was basically the female version of him.

Well Corday v 1.0 was vivacious and fun-loving. Corday v 2.0 was whiny and bitchy and unappealing. 

I did like how in S15 there's one final scene between Benton and Corday that was warm and left the door slightly open for that relationship. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

 It's very telling that Cleo was basically the female version of him.

That would have required Cleo to have a personality.  They could have saved a fortune by just giving Peter a relationship with a broom named "Cleo."  Very little of the actual storyline would need to be changed, and I swear the broom would be just as wooden as the human Cleo was.  

Edited September 4, 2018 by txhorns79

[Growsonwalls]

Omg I just rewatched "Suffer the Little Children/A Hole in the Heart" Remember this episode like it was yesterday, especially the televangelists and Doug detoxing the methadone-addicted baby and the man trying and failing to do a family murder/suicide. A few things on rewatch:

1) Nowadays I don't feel like there'd be that much pushback for what Doug did. Yes he shouldn't have hidden the rapid detox, but with the full-blown opioid crisis and parents OD'ing in front of kids and high school kids dying in the locker room from drug overdoses I feel like there's much more urgency to do whatever works to help people with this addiction. I actually know school principals who walk around with narcan. I guess I'm very much like Doug Ross in this one respect: when I feel that something is urgent and there is a right thing to do, fuck the rules. I have to live with myself and at the end of the day I can live with myself if I did the right thing, not if I followed the administrative procedures.

I've mentioned this before but Carol helping Doug with the detox is why Carol/Doug lasted. Both of them are passionate about their work and have this belief of "fuck the rules if it's the right thing to do." That's the kind of passion that binds couples together after the romantic passion fades or settles.

2) Speaking of which -- I feel like Kerry is hypocritical in going so hard on Doug in breaking the rules when Kerry herself has broken rules when HER conscience got to her. For instance Kerry kept Jeanie's HIV+ status secret, urged Jeanie to keep her job, gave Jeanie HIV cocktail medicine secretly when Jeanie ran out, and has been privately treating Jeanie. All of those aren't following administrative procedures either. But Kerry loves Jeanie and hates Doug so ...

3) The Corday/Romano thing grosses me out much more. Back then I thought it was funny, but now with the #metoo movement I think that Romano is totally gross and Corday's discomfort was much more apparent. 

4) I thought this was an unsatisfying way to write off Maria Bello's character. I know the point of the season ending was that it was focused on the ER reuniting in a really chaotic moment (the man failing at a murder/suicide) and the doctors frantically saving the family but I thought Anna should have gotten some closure. She was a series regular for a season. And we never did find out if the ex-boyfriend stole the drugs.

[Heathen]

The writers hit most of the black male stereotypes with Chris and Kenny Law, didn't they? It was uncomfortable then, obscene now. 

ER in general was big on ethnic stereotypes, right from the pilot. 

[Dr.OO7]

23 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

-- I feel like Kerry is hypocritical in going so hard on Doug in breaking the rules when Kerry herself has broken rules when HER conscience got to her. 

Oh, yes. And Mark too. This is precisely when my hatred of the two of them kicked into high gear. Kerry bent or broke the rules to help herself, lied through her teeth about it and did everything she could think of to avoid punishment--but blasted Doug for bending/breaking the rules to help his patients. Meanwhile, Mark bent or broke the rules for the same reasons that Doug did, yet always blasted him the same way. Grade-A hypocrites, both of them.

And let's not forget Mark's unbelievably shitty, two-faced behavior:

"Yes, Doug, I'll support you for the pediatric attending position!"

"Yes, Kerry, I'll support you in fighting against the pediatric attending position!"

He was such a spineless wimp.

[Growsonwalls]

2 minutes ago, Camille said:

Oh, yes. And Mark too. This is precisely when my hatred of the two of them kicked into high gear. Kerry bent or broke the rules to help herself, lied through her teeth about it and did everything she could think of to avoid punishment--but blasted Doug for bending/breaking the rules to help his patients. Meanwhile, Mark bent or broke the rules for the same reasons that Doug did, yet always blasted him the same way. Grade-A hypocrites, both of them.

And let's not forget Mark's unbelievably shitty, two-faced behavior:

"Yes, Doug, I'll support you for the pediatric attending position!"

"Yes, Kerry, I'll support you in fighting against the pediatric attending position!"

He was such a spineless wimp.

Oh yes. That talking out of the side of your mouth shit always gets me mad, although I know that most managers avoid trying to give bad news to people directly. However Mark was also Doug's friend and shouldn't have been going behind his back to lobby against the peds position.

But I always thought this personality trait of Mark's is why he got dumped by three different dates in one day while Doug probably could have had them all back at his apartment for an orgy. People appreciate directness and honesty, and Mark is rarely direct.

Anyway looking back I feel like Seasons 1-4 were the most classic ER. I guess those were the times when I watched this show religiously every Thursday. My interest was still there Season 5 and 6 but after that it faded a lot. 

[debraran]

7 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

That would have required Cleo to have a personality.  They could have saved a fortune by just giving Peter a relationship with a broom named "Cleo."  Very little of the actual storyline would need to be changed, and I swear the broom would be just as wooden as the human Cleo was.  

 

ER had a lot of stereotypes, the black woman didn't have to be the one they gave Benton, Cleo, another typecast personality. They could have brought in another more sparkling personality, another doctor or PA or even a black administrator. Cleo never clicked for me with Peter.  I think Eriq was honest, at the time, you didn't see as much on TV and pairing the black guy with the white women was more common. They could have done that with any character though also. Mark dated Chuney a bit but of course they  had nothing to talk about as he said, after a while. She was a nurse, like Carol, but I guess Carol was more worldly. ; )  Chuney was in a lot of episodes, over 200 I think but no real story line.  Why not have Mark seriously date a person who isn't white, or Doug or any of them? I think it was more than just Eriq.

At the same period, I worked at a large urban hospital. I got to go on many of the floors and ER because of my job. Many people dated, saw interracial relationships with doctor's, nurses and others. It wasn't what I saw in my old small hometown, but they were in Chicago, it could have been realistic.

Edited September 4, 2018 by debraran

[debraran]

On 9/4/2018 at 12:41 AM, Heathen said:

The writers hit most of the black male stereotypes with Chris and Kenny Law, didn't they? It was uncomfortable then, obscene now. 

ER in general was big on ethnic stereotypes, right from the pilot. 

I agree, I didn't see it earlier as much as I did before, and seeing it my daughter's eyes, who is black, was so different. She enjoyed most of it, but the running joke when I was watching was "did the black gangbanger show up yet?"  and one time, the show hadn't shown that and then they brought in a patient with gunshot wound, young black, after she joked. She laughed and said, Enjoy it Mom, it's a very good show, it just could have been much better".  The demographic watching might have not cared but Eriq did get supportive letters. I just feel it shouldn't be such a big deal and hopefully today, that isn't the case as often.

Edited September 5, 2018 by debraran

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

ER had a lot of stereotypes, the black woman didn't have to be the one they gave Benton, Cleo, another typecast personality. They could have brought in another more sparkling personality, another doctor or PA or even a black administrator. Cleo never clicked for me with Peter.  I think Eriq was honest, at the time, you didn't see as much on TV and pairing the black guy with the white women was more common. They could have done that with any character though also. Mark dated Chuney a bit but of course they  had nothing to talk about as he said, after a while. She was a nurse, like Carol, but I guess Carol was more worldly. ; )  Chuney was in a lot of episodes, over 200 I think but no real story line.  Why not have Mark seriously date a person who isn't white, or Doug or any of them? I think it was more than just Eriq.

ER actually struck out with most of its traditional romances. In the beginning years the one romance that really caught fire was Carol and Doug, in the second half I guess Abby/Luka/Carter triangle occupied a lot of time although I never liked Abby/Luka. Carter/Kem were an interracial couple but they didn't really set the TV screen on fire either. The interracial pairing that truly stuck was Carter/Benton and that wasn't romantic. 

It's not like LOST, something else I've been binge-watching again on Hulu. As the stories got more and more convoluted and there were more "mysteries" added every episode practically the only thing that worked towards the end were the romances. But they struck gold with several romances:

Sun/Jin

Penny/Desmond

Jack/Kate/Sawyer

Sawyer/Juliet

All of these romances had huge fanbases with dedicated 'shippers. My personal favorite was Sawyer/Juliet. Bad boy melts the ice queen.

[Growsonwalls]

One more thing: I guess the least stable job in ER is being a paramedic who kissed Carol Hathaway.

In Season 2, Shep was a paramedic who had a relationship with Carol. When they broke up, he was never seen riding an ambulance into the ER again.

In Season 4, Greg Powell had a millisecond kiss with Carol. He came to the hospital the next day, Doug got mad, and Greg Powell I guess also quit riding the ambulance. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

In Season 4, Greg Powell had a millisecond kiss with Carol. He came to the hospital the next day, Doug got mad, and Greg Powell I guess also quit riding the ambulance. 

I think it happens across professions at County.  Carter dated Wendell for a few months, and when they broke up, she left County forever.  Kerry dated Kim for a few months and when they broke up she left County forever shortly after.  Sam dated the male nurse for a hot minute and he quit his job at County shortly after they broke up.  Gates dated the chaplain at County who left the hospital forever shortly after she and Gates cooled things down.  Abby had the affair with Moretti and he conveniently left County forever (with one brief reappearance to close the storyline) to tend to his son.     

[Growsonwalls]

Ok here's one inconsistency I caught. In the pilot episode Doug Ross famously enters the ER drunk as a fish and Mark has to sober him up before his shift starts. Mark implies this happens often and that Doug has a drinking problem. Which would make sense because his own father Ray also had a drinking problem. But in the series although Doug sleeps around and has insubordination issues with hospital management there's nothing to suggest he actually has a drinking problem. Did the writers just decide not to pursue that particular trope of the alcoholic doctor? (Which it would later break when Abby had a huge drinking problem.)

Edited September 4, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 6:38 PM, doodlebug said:

I feel like Carol is exactly the type who would keep her name professionally.  She was proud to be a nurse, chose it above becoming a doctor.  I could see her also not wanting to be known as ‘Dr Ross’ wife’ but as ‘Ms Hathaway, transplant coordinator’.  At no time would she ever want anyone to think she got a boost from marrying a doc, all of her career achievements were her own.

I might also be projecting a little since, as the first one in the family to get the opportunity to go to medical school, keeping my own name has always been my plan.  When she was alive, my mom used to love calling my office just to hear the receptionist answer with my name.

echoing this. I would have been surprised if Carol took Ross as her last name --at least professionally. First based on her character; Second, she was already established professionally before they got married. Granted, she works in a hospital and doesn't have to change her letterhead etc, but still--when a woman is established professionally before she marries, she's less likely to change it. I took my husband's last name but if we'd married after I finished law school, I'm not sure I would have.

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 10:04 PM, starri said:

 

I guess at least she wasn't calling herself "Ofdoug," so...

nearly spewed water across my keyboard. so funny

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 10:25 PM, Growsonwalls said:

 

Anyway getting back to Season 4, did Alex Kingston kick the writers' puppies or what? She was such an appealing, self-confident surgeon in Season 4. A real breath of fresh air and a nice foil to Benton/Romano/Anspaugh who have the more "typical" surgeon personalities. But after Season 4 this nice confident lady became unrecognizable by the time she hooked up with Mark.

agree on this also. Corday is so awesome at first and becomes less so as the show goes on. Darn it show--wish you'd done better there.

[Growsonwalls]

So I'm watching the first two episodes of Season 5. I think they made a mistake having the Season 5 opener be shot entirely through Lucy's perspective. I know it echoed the pilot where third year medical student Carter had his first day in the ER. But the pilot introduced us to so many people, and it wasn't entirely from Carter's perspective. There were moments for the audience to get to know all the main characters. 

Season 5 rolls around and now Mark/Doug/Carol/Carter/Benton/Jeanie have been with us for four seasons, and Kerry for three, and so on and so forth. To shove Lucy (Kellie Martin) down the audiences' throat so much in one episode was irritating. Also her lying about knowing how to do medical procedures and having Carol cover for her twice automatically made her annoying.

That Season 5 episode 2 subplot of the guy who got shot in the ass and the girlfriends who get into a fight into the waiting room and then stab each other in the parking lot was so horrifyingly racist. Wow. 

Also Kerry not getting the Chief of Emergency Medicine position and turning into a huge raging bitch to patients is depressing. There are always the people who are in it for the titles and positions, and not the actual job.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Dr.OO7]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

So I'm watching the first two episodes of Season 5. I think they made a mistake having the Season 5 opener be shot entirely through Lucy's perspective. To shove Lucy (Kellie Martin) down the audiences' throat so much in one episode was irritating. 

Huge mistake. And they could have salvaged the character had they not CONTINUED to do so for several more episodes.

"Here she is! Now LIKE her, DAMNIT!"

Then they added insult to injury by abruptly booting her into the background when it became painfully obvious that she wasn't fitting in.

And WTF was with Carter being such an asshole to her? If they were trying to recreate the Benton-Carter tension, they failed miserably, because it was just completely out of character for Carter to be such a jerk.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Camille

[MVFrostsMyPie]

And that had some weight in how NW treated her initially (not nicely). He said the main stars had put in the hard work for several seasons and then here was this new person who gets her own episode as the start to a new season, and so they were harder on her because they felt she had to earn her place in the show. I'm not saying it was right, but I can't say I blame NW and others. At the same time, it sucks for Kellie Martin that all that pressure was put on her, through no fault of her own. 

[Growsonwalls]

2 hours ago, Camille said:

Huge mistake. And they could have salvaged the character had they not CONTINUED to do so for several more episodes.

"Here she is! Now LIKE her, DAMNIT!"

Then they added insult to injury by abruptly booting her into the background when it became painfully obvious that she wasn't fitting in.

And WTF was with Carter being such an asshole to her? If they were trying to recreate the Benton-Carter tension, they failed miserably, because it was just completely out of character for Carter to be such a jerk.

 

Also ... with the Carter/Benton dynamic we slowly learned that Benton wasn't being a jerk on purpose. He was just not a naturally warm and cuddly person. And then we got to meet more of the surgeons like Anspaugh and Romano and we realized that Benton was a doll compared to those characters. But with Carter it seemed like he was just purposely being mean to her which is out of character. 

But I think that's why I call Season 4 the last "classic ER" season. By Season 5 they were dropping people in, and there had to be bigger storylines, more chaos, more soap opera. Not saying there weren't great moments but the gradual character arcs that the writers had done in the earlier seasons where we saw both the best and the worst of every character was gone.

Like to use Benton and Carter as an example, it wasn't until the Thanksgiving episode in Season 1 where we realized Peter might not be a bad guy, as after an extremely tough day in the ER Benton invites Carter to the Benton family dinner. I also remember that in Season 1 it wasn't until the finale when Doug could get a weeping abandoned-at-the-altar Carol to laugh within seconds that I realized there was a really deep love between the two of them. It wasn't just "Doug's a jerk and made Carol try to kill herself." 

2 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

And that had some weight in how NW treated her initially (not nicely). He said the main stars had put in the hard work for several seasons and then here was this new person who gets her own episode as the start to a new season, and so they were harder on her because they felt she had to earn her place in the show. I'm not saying it was right, but I can't say I blame NW and others. At the same time, it sucks for Kellie Martin that all that pressure was put on her, through no fault of her own. 

Well no excuse to treat co-stars poorly. With that being said I don't think Kellie Martin had the depth as an actress to be dropped into so many scenes. It was too much too soon. Not really her fault. 

Ok so OB-GYNs out there ... Carol has a pregnancy scare after Doug extols the virtues of a diaphragm as the preferred birth control method. Believe he calls it "drawing the bridge on the castle." I was really surprised that Carol/Doug would use a diaphragm as birth control because I was in high school around that time and the health teacher referred to it off the cuff as "granny birth control." By the time I was in college it was the pill, the shot, or condoms. Do women still use diaphragms? 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[txhorns79]

Quote

And that had some weight in how NW treated her initially (not nicely). He said the main stars had put in the hard work for several seasons and then here was this new person who gets her own episode as the start to a new season, and so they were harder on her because they felt she had to earn her place in the show. I'm not saying it was right, but I can't say I blame NW and others. At the same time, it sucks for Kellie Martin that all that pressure was put on her, through no fault of her own. 

Is that true?  If so, they sound like spoiled children looking to gang up on the new person for not playing by the rules of their clubhouse. 

[Growsonwalls]

9 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Is that true?  If so, they sound like spoiled children looking to gang up on the new person for not playing by the rules of their clubhouse. 

I think Kellie Martin only said that NW wasn't that nice to her. She didn't say much about the other leads. NW has admitted it and apologized. It probably didn't help that Lucy was written to be joined at the hip to Carter. The original character was meant to have a torrid romance with Carter and NW lobbied hard against that, saying that was out of character for Carter to sleep with a med student. Also suspect that maybe the chemistry between NW and Martin just wasn't there.

Actually I heard it was the Friends set that developed a reputation for being very mean to "newcomers" or "guest stars." Supposedly only Lisa Kudrow and Matthew Perry were nice to whoever came on set.

But seriously ... Doug's favorite BC method of diaphragms ... do people still use them? My OB-GYN never even discussed a diaphragm with me when I first talked about birth control with her.

[izabella]

I think there are women who can't use hormonal birth control methods for health reasons, or they don't want to use hormones long term, so diaphragms are probably still used.

I could never warm to Lucy, which really bothered me because she was on so damned much.  I confess, I was totally fine with her dying.

[debraran]

8 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Well no excuse to treat co-stars poorly. With that being said I don't think Kellie Martin had the depth as an actress to be dropped into so many scenes. It was too much too soon. Not really her fault. 

Ok so OB-GYNs out there ... Carol has a pregnancy scare after Doug extols the virtues of a diaphragm as the preferred birth control method. Believe he calls it "drawing the bridge on the castle." I was really surprised that Carol/Doug would use a diaphragm as birth control because I was in high school around that time and the health teacher referred to it off the cuff as "granny birth control." By the time I was in college it was the pill, the shot, or condoms. Do women still use diaphragms? 

They still offer them as a non hormone birth control and if you don't want an IUD sitting there and dangers of that (although much less now) This article touches on  comeback. https://www.glamour.com/story/sodiaphragms-are-making-a-comeback

I used it when I needed to stop the pill and when I was on the pill and needed a few months to have my body get  rid of the hormones before I tried to conceive. I didn't like it overall but it got me through a few years.  I still tried to not have sex when I knew I was ovulating.

Noah addressed treating Kelly badly, said he didn't know why I think, but I have a feeling his character overshadowed the real person and people had trouble thinking "John" could do that vs Noah.

[doodlebug]

10 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Ok so OB-GYNs out there ... Carol has a pregnancy scare after Doug extols the virtues of a diaphragm as the preferred birth control method. Believe he calls it "drawing the bridge on the castle." I was really surprised that Carol/Doug would use a diaphragm as birth control because I was in high school around that time and the health teacher referred to it off the cuff as "granny birth control." By the time I was in college it was the pill, the shot, or condoms. Do women still use diaphragms? 

 

I am the oldest doc in my practice and have the most experience with diaphragms.  I would guess I fit maybe 2 women a year for them.  They’ve got all the inconvenience and messiness of condoms and are no more effective. Plus you need a prescription, they have to be fitted and many pharmacies don’t carry them any more.  I remember being surprised when Doug said that, even back then, they weren’t popular.

[RedbirdNelly]

12 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Also ... with the Carter/Benton dynamic we slowly learned that Benton wasn't being a jerk on purpose. He was just not a naturally warm and cuddly person. And then we got to meet more of the surgeons like Anspaugh and Romano and we realized that Benton was a doll compared to those characters. But with Carter it seemed like he was just purposely being mean to her which is out of character. 

But I think that's why I call Season 4 the last "classic ER" season. By Season 5 they were dropping people in, and there had to be bigger storylines, more chaos, more soap opera. Not saying there weren't great moments but the gradual character arcs that the writers had done in the earlier seasons where we saw both the best and the worst of every character was gone.

Like to use Benton and Carter as an example, it wasn't until the Thanksgiving episode in Season 1 where we realized Peter might not be a bad guy, as after an extremely tough day in the ER Benton invites Carter to the Benton family dinner. I also remember that in Season 1 it wasn't until the finale when Doug could get a weeping abandoned-at-the-altar Carol to laugh within seconds that I realized there was a really deep love between the two of them. It wasn't just "Doug's a jerk and made Carol try to kill herself." 

 

agreeing on all the Lucy stuff. I never liked her character--just too annoying---but agree maybe if they had deployed her in a less in your face way, let her show up and gradually increase her presence, I might have liked her.

And Benton---I've said this before, but for anyone who doesn't want to re-read 68 pages of posts. .. I think Benton is one of the best written characters ever (and kudos to the acting). Most shows do not have a character as prickly as Benton who either (a) is a complete jerk and you clearly hate him; or (b) after a few episodes has a personality transplant and becomes super nice. I started watching ER in season 2 and I remember asking friends who had watched from the get-go "am I supposed to like Benton?" I wasn't sure if he was a "good guy" or a character I'm supposed to hate. That's great writing--and the fact they stuck with it (sure a few storylines were bleck) for his entire tenure is awesome---Benton's departure with his reaction to Carter's subway token was just so fabulous, so 100% Benton (and 100% true to sentimental Carter).

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

agreeing on all the Lucy stuff. I never liked her character--just too annoying---but agree maybe if they had deployed her in a less in your face way, let her show up and gradually increase her presence, I might have liked her.

And Benton---I've said this before, but for anyone who doesn't want to re-read 68 pages of posts. .. I think Benton is one of the best written characters ever (and kudos to the acting). Most shows do not have a character as prickly as Benton who either (a) is a complete jerk and you clearly hate him; or (b) after a few episodes has a personality transplant and becomes super nice. I started watching ER in season 2 and I remember asking friends who had watched from the get-go "am I supposed to like Benton?" I wasn't sure if he was a "good guy" or a character I'm supposed to hate. That's great writing--and the fact they stuck with it (sure a few storylines were bleck) for his entire tenure is awesome---Benton's departure with his reaction to Carter's subway token was just so fabulous, so 100% Benton (and 100% true to sentimental Carter).

Benton rang true as a well rounded character.  He was uptight and serious, very intelligent and focused and had a hard time showing his emotions.  I thought the invite to Carter on Thanksgiving in the first season was one of the first times we saw his inner softness.  First, he saw that Carter was emotionally traumatized by the transgender patient's suicide and even took responsibility for not realized that she was suicidal in the first place.  Second, he remembered that his mother liked Carter and had personally invited him to join the family for Thanksgiving.  And, of course, his mother had spoken the immortal line, "I think his people used to own our people!" which was a fairly outrageous statement for anyone to make.  Benton loved his mother and eventually he came to love Carter and that episode laid a lot of groundwork for the future.

I think that ER did an exceptional job of presenting well rounded characters.  Doug was a terrific pediatrician even when he was an absolute dog in his personal life.  Mark was usually a nice guy, but he had a passive-aggressive streak that came out to play on occasion.  Carter was sweet and innocent but could be competitive and devious at times.  Carol was a great nurse, but had a lot of baggage from her father's death when she was a kid. Romano was as un-PC as they come, but his concern for Lizzie when Mark was dying as well as his tenderness as he sutured Lucy's chest after she died belied that.  Heck, even Frank who could be a racist, sexist jerk, turned out to be working to care for his daughter with Down Syndrome and it turned out he told his family all sorts of stories about the gang in the ER and how smart they were and how hard they worked, even Neela and Pratt.  His farewell to Pratt as he was wheeled from the ER was heartbreaking.

[Growsonwalls]

@RedbirdNelly totally agree. One masterful piece of writing is when Carter is having the affair with pediatric surgeon Abby. Peter and Abby don't get along, and Benton awkwardly tries to get into a shit-talking gossip session with Carter about Abby. Now this isn't a very nice thing to do. But for a moment you can see in Peter's face a hopeful smile, and his lighthearted comment about Abby being a little out there was endearing. Little does Peter know that Carter is sleeping with Abby, and of course Carter gushes about Abby. And you can see Peter's disappointment that his attempt at male-bonding failed.

 Also @doodlebug I never realized till later how big an invite to the Benton family dinner table was. I think prior the Bentons might never have had a guy with Carter's background sit with them in a Thanksgiving dinner. 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[doodlebug]

8 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

@RedbirdNelly totally agree. One masterful piece of writing is when Carter is having the affair with pediatric surgeon Abby. Peter and Abby don't get along, and Benton awkwardly tries to get into a shit-talking gossip session with Carter about Abby. Now this isn't a very nice thing to do. But for a moment you can see in Peter's face a hopeful smile, and his lighthearted comment about Abby being a little out there was endearing. Little does Peter know that Carter is sleeping with Abby, and of course Carter gushes about Abby. And you can see Peter's disappointment that his attempt at male-bonding failed.

 Also @doodlebug I never realized till later how big an invite to the Benton family dinner table was. I think prior the Bentons might never have had a guy with Carter's background sit with them in a Thanksgiving dinner. 

 

I'm sure that was the case.  Chicago, like many other large cities, was generally segregated by neighborhood and I doubt the Benton family knew any white people, let alone mega-rich white people to invite to dinner.  Also, we saw they were a close family who cherished their time together, inviting anyone to share a holiday meal was probably a big step for them and didn't happen often.

One more trait of Benton's that was consistent throughout was his basic dignity and integrity.  When he screwed up, he generally took full responsibility.  When he caught Carter and Abby together, it never dawned on him to use the info to help himself.  When Jeannie told him she was HIV positive, he told her what he thought, but never betrayed her confidence.  He never 'checked the box' for race on his medical school application and was dismayed to discover that his race was a factor.  He set very high standards for himself and held to them.

[RedbirdNelly]

39 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Benton rang true as a well rounded character.  He was uptight and serious, very intelligent and focused and had a hard time showing his emotions.  I thought the invite to Carter on Thanksgiving in the first season was one of the first times we saw his inner softness.  First, he saw that Carter was emotionally traumatized by the transgender patient's suicide and even took responsibility for not realized that she was suicidal in the first place.  Second, he remembered that his mother liked Carter and had personally invited him to join the family for Thanksgiving.  And, of course, his mother had spoken the immortal line, "I think his people used to own our people!" which was a fairly outrageous statement for anyone to make.  Benton loved his mother and eventually he came to love Carter and that episode laid a lot of groundwork for the future.

I think that ER did an exceptional job of presenting well rounded characters.  Doug was a terrific pediatrician even when he was an absolute dog in his personal life.  Mark was usually a nice guy, but he had a passive-aggressive streak that came out to play on occasion.  Carter was sweet and innocent but could be competitive and devious at times.  Carol was a great nurse, but had a lot of baggage from her father's death when she was a kid. Romano was as un-PC as they come, but his concern for Lizzie when Mark was dying as well as his tenderness as he sutured Lucy's chest after she died belied that.  Heck, even Frank who could be a racist, sexist jerk, turned out to be working to care for his daughter with Down Syndrome and it turned out he told his family all sorts of stories about the gang in the ER and how smart they were and how hard they worked, even Neela and Pratt.  His farewell to Pratt as he was wheeled from the ER was heartbreaking.

So agree with this. and the Frank farewell to Pratt made me choke up when I most recently watched it.

The show was good (at its best) of having characters that seemed like real people and that bonded. I like the fact that Mark is 2 faced to Doug and Kerry about supporting/not supporting the peds attending position. It was the wrong thing to do but great for the character--because there are real, nice people in the world that have trouble being direct with someone when they don't agree and then find themselves nodding along, agreeing to something, not having the guts to come out and say "but I also think this" and then find themselves in a spot where Doug and Kerry both feel lied to, understandably---but they didn't intend to do that. That's real life. I know how those things happen because I have trouble being blunt.

This week I watched season 15 episode where Carter collapses and ends the show by getting transferred to Northwestern. Frank, Hela, and Jerry are the ones in the ambulance bay to say good bye. And even though this show is past its best seasons, that scene touched me. It felt real---nice for 3 of the ER to be there to send him off. . and believable that they'd want to be.

I liked how they gave Benton a reason to be how he was. It's believable that a person who feels the odds are stacked against him will be uptight, serious and at times blind to others as he rushes forward, scared to miss his opportunities. Not every person who grows up in a Benton situation does that--but believable to me that the ones that pursue surgery do.