Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, superloislane said:

You're right it is a normal reaction which is why I hate that she had to apologise for having that reaction to bratty Henry. But her thinking that Regina could go evil again if in the same circumstances as before does show that Emma believes that her 'redemption' is very fragile

It doesn't show that at all, imo. All it shows is that she understands that Regina is likely at her weakest moment. Even Emma has done bad things when she's lost a loved one--see the aftermath of her keeping Hook from dying in 5A.

[PixiePaws1]

I  do believe Regina can be redeem...not fully, because I  simply can't get the canon scenes of a whole village including woman and children having been slaughtered over a temper tantrum. And I don't forget the trauma of the guards who did so much killing for her. She had their hearts and they had no control...ho wed many of their friends did she force them to kill? 

But she has made a start to redeem herself...she has acknowledged that she was a monster.

In SB people don't get to spend real time in jail for their crimes...that's how it is and I  accept that within this Show universe (wrong in real world terms but this ain't the real world).

She absolutely must respectfully resolve the issue of all those hearts in her vault ! Granted a large number of their true owners are dead....thanks to Regina...but sort them out...have a funeral service or something like that ..not just store them away like last year's preserves.

But people like Charming, Snow and Emma and Henry should pull themselves up as the so called heroes and confront Regina about at least that. I  can't buy the friendship when I  can't hear what they're saying over the sounds of all those torn out beating hearts !!

[Rumsy4]

31 minutes ago, PixiePaws1 said:

But people like Charming, Snow and Emma and Henry should pull themselves up as the so called heroes and confront Regina about at least that. I  can't buy the friendship when I  can't hear what they're saying over the sounds of all those torn out beating hearts !!

It makes the so-called heroes look like shitty people. This is what the REC does. They tend to place such a high value on Regina's happiness, coddling, and redemption, that the common man doesn't matter to them anymore. 

[YaddaYadda]

7 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

It makes the so-called heroes look like shitty people. This is what the REC does. They tend to place such a high value on Regina's happiness, coddling, and redemption, that the common man doesn't matter to them anymore. 

The so-called heroes are shitty people. Snow spares Regina's life even though she's told not to, Regina goes on her and tramples over villages because Snow lives on hope. She doesn't need food or water, she needs hope, and her ass was untouchable because she was being protect by Rumple. Meanwhile, people who put themselves out there for her got the very short end of the stick. 

They're heroes in name only. 

[Dianthus]

Hook only went after Belle because he sought revenge against Rumple. That's it. Once he gave up on that, he had no other reason to do so. He's no longer a threat to her, she saved his life, and they've worked together to clean up some of Rumple's mess (i.e., de-hatting the fairies). I don't see how that's so hard to understand, unless you just can't/won't. As for the Fail Safe in s2, that was just Regina undoing a thing she'd baked into the curse (IIRC). I'm not saying she hasn't changed at all, but she's still arrogant, mean-spirited, overly critical, and deeply negative.

ITA with everyone above who said that Graham's murder was a sticking point, re: any sort of relationship between Regina and Emma. Regina knows the truth of the matter, but no one's giving her shit about lying/keeping secrets. It's the REC on steroids. Fuck her. Fuck her right in the ear!

[Amerilla]

I see from the episode board that it's time for the seasonal "Yay! Belle is finally showing a backbone!" discussion. So I decided to put together a "Greatest Hits" of all the many, many times Belle has taken him to task for his moral failings or demaded a baseline level of not-evilness or simply told him to jam his dagger where the sun don't shine over last six seasons:

Quote

1x12 - Belle: You were freeing yourself! You could’ve had happiness if you just believed that someone could want you. But you couldn’t take the chance. Rumpelstiltskin: That’s a lie. Belle: You’re a coward, Rumpelstiltskin. And no matter how thick you make your skin, that doesn’t change. Rumpelstiltskin: I’m not a coward, dearie. It’s quite simple, really. My power, means more to me than you. Belle: No. No, it doesn’t. You just don’t think I can love you. Now, you’ve made your choice. And you’re going to regret it – forever. And all you’ll have, is an empty heart – and a chipped cup.

 

Belle and Rumpel don't see each other again until 1x22. They pick up in 2x01

Quote

2x01 - Mr. Gold: All these years, you’ve been here. Alive. Belle: Is… Is that… Is that why you did this? Why you wanted magic? For revenge? Mr. Gold: No, no. But it might come in handy. Belle: No. No. Mr. Gold: I cannot let this stand, Belle. I will not let this stand! Belle: Look, promise me. Promise me you won’t give in to your hate. Promise me you won’t kill her. Promise me, and we can be together. Mr. Gold: Sweetheart… I promise.

 

Rumpel reneges on his promise, sending the Wraith after Regina, leading to Team Princess. Belle doesn't know what's happened, and she basically forgives him for going back on his word. We don't see them again until 2x04, when Belle catches Rumpel practicing magic, and the fight begins anew:

Quote

 

2x04 - Mr. Gold: Let’s have breakfast. Belle: No, we need to talk about this. Mr. Gold: It was just a couple of spells. Nothing to be concerned about. Belle: Okay, then be honest with me. Why did you bring magic here? Mr. Gold: I’ve told you – magic is power. Belle: Why do you need it? Tell me. (He says nothing.) Belle: You don’t need power, Rumpel. You need courage, to let me in.

2x04 - Mr. Gold: Belle, what’s wrong? Belle: Thank you for what you just did, but that doesn’t change that you’re too cowardly to be honest with me. Mr. Gold: Well, Belle, that’s just- Mr. French: I tried to tell them that, Belle. Come with me, darling. Belle: After what you just tried to do to me? You’re no better, Father. You don’t get to decide what I do or how I feel. I do. If either of you cared about me, you would’ve listened. I don’t want to see either of you again. Ever.

 

 

Rumpel is honest with Belle at the end of the episode and she tentatively lets him back into her life. We get a couple glimpses of them over the next couple episodes. Belle is shot and memory-wiped at the end of 2x11, and they spend no sustained time together with her memory intact and/or not as a hallucination until 3x10. 

Quote

3x10 - Belle: But you do. The boy wasn't your undoing. And neither was Pan. So now you can stop worrying about prophecies and start thinking about your future. There's endless possibilities; countless paths to take.

 

Rumpel "dies" in the next episode, and they see each other only intermittently for the rest of the season, including a brief reunion in 3x20 and wedding in 3x22. The relationship starts to crater due to his lies and plots, most of while Belle is oblivious to, but she clues in for the midseason finale: 

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4x12 - Mr Gold: Belle, what are you doing? Belle: Finally facing the truth. Mr Gold: No, please put the dagger down and let me explain. Belle: No! It's my turn to talk. Do you remember the first time you saved my life? You traded for me. I thought I... I saw something in you, something good. Well, I found that gauntlet today. And that's when I... I finally realized that all the signs I'd been seeing were correct. You'd never give up power for me, Rumple. You never have. You never will. Mr Gold: Y... Y... you don't understand. Belle: No. You told me that gauntlet could lead you to... to someone's weakness, to the thing they loved the most. Well, you know where it led me, Rumple? To the real dagger. Your true love is your power. Mr Gold: I like the power. But there's nothing wrong with power, not when it means that... That I... That we... That we can have it all. Belle: I just wanted you. I wanted to be chosen, not... I tried to be everything for you, Rumple. But I wasn't. And I... I lost my way trying to help you find yourself. Not anymore. Mr Gold: Please, Belle. I... I... I'll make it up to you. I... I... I've changed once before. I can do it again. Belle: You've never changed. Mr Gold: Please. Belle: No! It's too late. Once I... I saw the man behind the beast. Now there's only a beast. Rumplestiltskin, I command you... To leave Storybrooke. Mr Gold: Belle, no. Please. I won't be able to come back. Belle: I know. Mr Gold: I... I... I don't want to lose you. Belle: You already have. Mr Gold: Belle, please. I'm afraid. Belle! Belle! No! Belle! Belle, please!

 

Other than the occasional glamour spell and Regina's heart-control trick, they are mostly apart for the rest of the season, other than a brief scene in 4x20 and the finale: 

Quote

4x22 - Mr Gold: Belle. You came back for me. Belle: I came back to make sure you weren't going to try to hurt anyone else.

Rumpel spends the first part of S5 in a coma or kidnapped. They spend much of 5x06 together, with mixed emotional results:

Quote

5x06 - Belle: Rumple, stop the car. Mr. Gold: What? Belle: Now! (Belle tries to open the door. Mr. Gold stops the car.) Mr. Gold: Belle! Belle! (She leaves.) Mr. Gold: Belle. Belle. What are you doing? Come back in the car. Belle: No. Mr. Gold: Please. Belle: No. You know, running never made anyone a hero, okay? Mr. Gold: Well, don't... Don't you get it? I'm not a hero. Belle: Well, you've been brave before. Mr. Gold: When? During the first ogres war? Let me tell you the truth about that day... I didn't... Cripple myself to get back to my son... I did it because I was scared. Mr. Gold: I joined the army to prove I wasn't a coward. But when I seen the wounded coming back from the front lines... I didn't want to die... I'm a coward, Belle... And that's never gonna change. Please come back in the car, eh? Th... This is the only way I know how to protect you. Come on, come on. Belle: Protect yourself, you mean.

 

After 5x06 Belle seems to be willing to accept Rumpel back now that he's proven himself a "hero," then:

Quote

5x10 -  Belle: You... you did it! You won. Mr. Gold: And you came. Oh, Belle, I'm so glad you're here. I'm ready to do this right, put the past behind us. Belle: Rumple... ( Exhales sharply ) This isn't easy for me. I love you. And some part of me will always love you. But you've broken my heart too many times. There's just too much broken trust. Mr. Gold: But I've changed. My heart is pure now. Belle: Yeah, you... you have, and it is. You're... you're the man that I always hoped you would be. Mr. Gold: Then why are you doing this now? Now we have a chance to make this work. Belle: I don't know that I want to make it work. But I do know that if I'm gonna try and figure that out, I need to do that on my own. I can't... I have spent too many years trying to mend your heart. Now I-I need to protect mine. Mr. Gold: Belle, please.

 

In perhaps one of the most obvious babymaking-bangs in the history of network television, after rejecting Rumpel, Belle suddenly turns back on the verge of leaving town to see the world, and they end up in bed. Rumpel, newly Darked Oned, leaves for the Underworld in the next episode. She arrives there in 5x16: 

Quote

5x16 - Belle: You're the Dark One again. No. Mr Gold: Yes. See, the thing is... I love this dagger. And I also love you. Both are possible. Look, y-you wanted me to be... a better man. A-A-And you've done that. But if you want me to be a different man... I'm sorry. This is who I am. Belle: You weren't always. Mr Gold: Yes, I was. Even when I was a coward, I craved power. The only difference is, now I have it. And I won't let it go. Not again. Belle: Right. Not even for me? Mr Gold: Belle, there's something you must realize. (Sighs) Falling in love with the man behind the beast... isn't really what happened to you. You fell in love with me... because there was a man and a beast. Neither exists without the other. Belle: No. No. I-I can't condone you being like this. Not again. Mr Gold: Yes, you can. You just have to choose to. And if you do... we can have what's important... Family, happiness. It's your choice. Belle: No, I'm, uh... (Sniffles) I'm not making any choices... not now. (Inhales shakily) Not until you get me back to our friends... and you've fixed... all of this. Mr Gold: Then that's what I shall do. But you'll see I'm right. You'll see.

 

From "Her Handsome Hero" it's basically one running argument, ending at the end of 5x18 with her putting herself under a sleeping curse:

Quote

 

5x17 - Belle: I won't be separated from this child. I need your help. Gold: So, you accept who I am. Belle: I have accepted that no one will fight for a child like its father. You've proven that much. But no dark magic. Gold: You must have known what you were letting yourself in for. Belle: When we were in Camelot, Merlin said that perhaps one day someone would be able to wield the power of the Dark One Dagger for good. Show me that you can be that man. Show me, and... and we can save our child, and we can turn the darkness into light. Gold: Well, that's the thing with dark and light. Depends on your point of view. In the end, you do what you can to protect those you love. Belle: All right, well, I'd never resort to darkness because that's not what a hero does. Gold: In the heat of the moment, you do whatever it takes. Belle: You want a future with me? You have to do this my way. 

5x17 - Belle and Gold are in the shop searching through books to look for answers which could help them keep their baby). Gold: (Shuts his book). Useless. Belle: Well, keep looking. (Sighs) These books are full of light magic. There must be something in here that can help. Gold: If we wanted to boil a pot of tea, yes. Belle: So every time you try something nefarious, it's a smashing success, but when I ask you to channel that power for good, you fail. Gold: I don't care what Merlin said. To be able to turn darkness to light is a fool's errand. To use darkness for light, that may be possible. Belle: I won't allow it. Gold: Then we'll fail. Belle: Wait, what? This was a mistake. I shouldn't have come here. (Begins to leave the shop). Gold: Belle. (Follows Belle as she leaves the shop). Belle, please, come back. Belle: I don't want to hear any more justifi...

5x17 - Belle: So, you killed Gaston, my fiancé, and never thought to tell me? Gold: It was an arranged marriage. I was doing you a favor. Belle: This... this was a mistake. Once again, I've let my optimism cloud my judgment. Gold: His threat is real, you know. I may be immortal, but Hades forged these arrows in the River of Souls, a river which flows right into this very sea, in fact. Now, immortal or not, one scratch, and I'm trapped in these waters forever. And I won't be able to help our child. Hades is clever. He sent Gaston because he knows you won't let me hurt him. Let's prove him wrong. Let me use just a little bit of dark magic... Just enough to take care of Gaston. Belle: No. That's no not how we're gonna defeat him. We're gonna do the opposite. We're going to help him. We're gonna see to it that he finally moves on from this infernal place. Gold: Belle, please, he's not worth it. Belle: It's not just about him. Hook said that when his brother moved on, that it affected Hades somehow. It weakened him. So by helping people move on, maybe that's how we defeat Hades.

5x18 - Gold: Stop torturing yourself, Belle. Belle: No, I... I gave Gaston this book to teach him that a true hero needs to show his enemy compassion. Right? But in the moment that I could've shown him mercy, what, I send him to a fate worse than death. Gold: Belle, you were trying to protect our child. Belle: Yeah, and... and you know, if Hades had actually destroyed the contract, then maybe I could live with what I did. But he found a loophole, and I darkened my soul, Rumple, just... just to save you. Gold: And now we can free our child from Hades' grasp together. Belle: No, I-I need to make this right on my own. I leave it up to you, you'll just make me do something else I'll regret.

5x18 - Belle: The sleeping curse, it'll halt everything. Ah! I can prick my finger quicker than you can stop me. As long as I'm asleep, Hades can't take the baby, and you'll have all the time you need to destroy the contract. Gold: Belle, you're only gonna make things worse. Belle: I'm doing what I need to to protect our child. Gold: There's only one way out of a sleeping curse... True love's kiss. Belle: I know. Gold: You think this is gonna force me to become the man you want me to be? To go back to the light just to wake you up? My love, I already told you... I'm not that man. Belle: No. I know. You're not the one who's going to wake me, Rumple. My father is.

 

1

The argument continues into this season:

Quote

 

6x01 - Gold: Our son... h-he was testing me... playing the part of Morpheus to see if I'd do right by him. And like my other son... I've lost him, too. Even before he's born. Belle: If you ever let true love wake you up, then maybe you wouldn't keep losing. Gold: We can discuss this at home. Belle: Oh, I'll go back... but, uh, I'm not making a home with you. Our son gave me a warning, and I'm going to listen to it.

6x04 - Belle: You locked me on that ship like a prisoner. Did you even think about what would have happened if Jekyll had succeeded, what would have happened to our son? Gold: I was only trying to protect you. Belle: I don't need your protection, okay? Not at the cost I keep paying with you. God, you didn't... you didn't cut your hair for me. You cut it for you because you are sick and tired of looking at the man in the mirror. But you forget... I always see you for who you are. Gold: You may not think that you need me, Belle, but you will. You forget whose child it is you're carrying. He will have a mark on his head by virtue of who he is, and if you want what's best for him... you will come back to me. Belle: Threats won't make me love you again, Rumple. Gold: No. But necessity will.

6x07: Belle: Zelena told me about you and the Evil Queen. Gold: Well, then. I know it's trite to say it doesn't mean anything. Belle: Oh, I-I don't care about what you do right now or with whom you do it. But she also told me about the shears. Now, that... that I do care about. She said that you're going to use them on our son the first moment you can, the moment that he's born, to cut him off from his future. Well, I won't allow that. You don't get to tamper with his life just to keep him from hating you. I forbid it. Gold: Look... The things I do, they're driven by the love of my son. Belle: That excuse, that... that doesn't work anymore. If you were pure evil, like the queen, then maybe I could forgive you because that's all you could be. But you... you do feel love, and you could be a good man if you tried. You want your son's love. Don't take it. Be worthy of it. Gold: And what if I fail? Belle: Listen to yourself. That's just you all over, isn't it? Afraid of failing. That's worse than being evil. That's... That's just being too weak to be good.

 

2

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by Amerilla
Royally forked-up tagging of quotes repaired

[Curio]

There's something in the way Emilie delivers her lines this season that's a little different than other seasons. It's like she's playing her frustration and arguments towards Rumple with a lot more bite and attitude, which I find highly entertaining. Hopefully, she keeps this up for longer than a season.

[Amerilla]

3 minutes ago, Curio said:

Hopefully, she keeps this up for longer than a season.

I really feel like the story ends at the end of this season. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part. One thing compiling this list has reminded me is how joyless and repetitious the whole story has become.  

[Rumsy4]

There does seem to be a difference in Emilie's line deliveries this season. It seems as though she has stopped being a naive young girl in love. Even in all the times she has broken up with Rumple in the past, the very fact that she kept being duped back to him made it all seem like false bravado, to the point where people really started thinking Belle actually likes the Darkness herself. Rumbellers I read/podcasters have been arguing that she fell in love when Rumple was the DO, so she should accept him as such. While Belle may be attracted to power, her fantasy has always been to reform Rumple by her love. At least she's let go of that delusion now. I think her impending motherhood has made her more cautious and level-headed.

I still think Rumbelle is not done with for good. So, all of Belle's spirited defiance may come to nothing once again. Even if Rumple somehow proves himself genuine this time, how can Belle ever trust him after this? Even if we go by the addiction analogy, Rumple will be a recovering addict for the rest of his life, with the danger of "relapse". Forgiveness may be possible (Belle is a very forgiving person), but to rebuild any sort of genuine relationship with trust after all this will be near-impossible. There have always been women through the ages who take back their spouses after years of bad treatment or abuse when they have repented (real or not) or when they are dying, but that's not the sort of love story that I would like to see for Belle. Especially with the squicky EQ/Rumple angle, I'm finding it hard to see how the writers are going to even pretend Rumbelle still truly love each other deep down, as they keep claiming in interviews. I'm sure Belle does love Rumple, and Rumple kindof loves her too. But it's bizarre to call them "True Love", and talk as though there's still an inevitable Happy Ending in store for them. Or they're being disingenuous, and just trying to placate the few hopeful Rumbellers that are left before the blow falls. 

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

There does seem to be a difference in Emilie's line deliveries this season. It seems as though she has stopped being a naive young girl in love. Even in all the times she has broken up with Rumple in the past, the very fact that she kept being duped back to him made it all seem like false bravado, to the point where people really started thinking Belle actually likes the Darkness herself.

The difference to me is that, in the past, it always came across like she was the one hurt by his actions. Now, she sounds kind of like she wants to hurt him. There's a bitter edge to her tone that hasn't been there. She's been angry before, but she always sounded wounded. Now she sounds disgusted.

[YaddaYadda]

Who will have the next TLK?

Seems like Snowing are slated for a whole bunch since they'll need to wake each other up every day. How do they work this schedule? Does one stay up at night while the other is under the curse and the other is up during the day? Or do they go with the most useful half? The less annoying half? The half people like most?

All joking aside, I very much hate the TLK, and 607 took it to a whole another level of annoying.

Edited November 8, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Rumsy4]

Ugh. I totally should have put Snowing as one of the choices. lol. Yeah--the back and forth TLK is going to get old pretty fast for me as well if they keep showing us the rainbow whoosh every episode. 

That said, I think Jasmine and Aladdin will have the next TLK of the season.

[TheGreenKnight]

15 hours ago, Curio said:

There's something in the way Emilie delivers her lines this season that's a little different than other seasons. It's like she's playing her frustration and arguments towards Rumple with a lot more bite and attitude, which I find highly entertaining. Hopefully, she keeps this up for longer than a season.

I think it's because they're actually giving her something to do besides look for books to get the plot out of the corner it's driven into.

[KAOS Agent]

I assumed that Belle is more forceful in her words and actions towards Rumpel because it's not just her that's going to get screwed when he pulls his manipulative bullshit on her. In the past when he did bad things, she was the only one getting hurt. Now there's a child involved and she knows that the baby already hates his father. Belle going back to Rumpel could lead to pain for her son, so her decisions are backed up by this need to protect. She'll probably go back to him anyway at some point because that's how this show rolls, but at least for the moment, I think Belle has got more reason to stay away.

[YaddaYadda]

If Belle goes back to Rumple, it will be out of necessity like he said to her. I don't know, it feels like her feelings for him have changed.

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

If Belle goes back to Rumple, it will be out of necessity like he said to her. I don't know, it feels like her feelings for him have changed.

Your probably right. But it would be a nice twist if Belle didn't go back to Rumple.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Ugh. I totally should have put Snowing as one of the choices.

NOT that I really want this, but I was actually going to vote for Henry and Violet - cause you know, This Show.  ( I mean, c'mon.  Who are we kidding here?  We saw them kissing at school for a Reason.)   And that was before I read the spoiler for the next episode.  [sigh].

[Rumsy4]

27 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

NOT that I really want this, but I was actually going to vote for Henry and Violet - cause you know, This Show.  ( I mean, c'mon.  Who are we kidding here?  We saw them kissing at school for a Reason.)   And that was before I read the spoiler for the next episode.  [sigh].

NOPE. lol

Also, I should totally have put in Evil Queen and Mr. Gold (;-p).

[Shanna Marie]

Logically, the next TLK would be Emma and Hook, given that they're an established couple that's gone through hell (literally) to be together, have made numerous sacrifices for each other, and passed the True Love test in the Underworld. But it's this show, and I bet if they ever do get a real TLK, complete with special effects, it won't happen until the series finale, assuming they get to plan an actual finale instead of just finding out about a cancellation after the fact (in which case it will never happen).

So, I voted for Aladdin and Jasmine. We haven't seen them actually kiss, have we? They've just done a lot of hugging. He'll probably be restored to Savior status to save Agrabah by a TLK.

Otherwise, given that it's This Show, Evil Queen and Henry, and that will have something to do with how Regina and her darker half are reunited.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Also, I should totally have put in Evil Queen and Mr. Gold (;-p).

heh heh.  I think that might be the winner!

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

So, I voted for Aladdin and Jasmine. We haven't seen them actually kiss, have we? They've just done a lot of hugging. He'll probably be restored to Savior status to save Agrabah by a TLK.

Apart from Snowing, who're going to be kissing each other lot, I definitely think the next TLK will go to Jasmine and Aladdin. It will restore his savior status, which is what Jasmine seems to care about most, lol. 

I don't really care about a CS TLK at this point. There have been way too many TLKs on this Show, and they've been through way too much, for it to matter at this point. However, I think, after Hook's speech about Emma being able to break any curse, I think she'll play a big role in breaking her parent's Curse. Being the product of True Love and all.

[RadioGirl27]

After last season, I'm sure CS would never have a TLK. 

[Camera One]

Oh give me a freak'in break.  This is in response to Adam's latest twitter Q&A:

. ‏@VictoriousGank  12 hours ago

@AdamHorowitzLA really depressed about this show, please send some hope my way, especially regarding rumbelle

Adam Horowitz Verified account‏@AdamHorowitzLA

@VictoriousGank there's an old saying. It's always darkest before the dawn.

[KAOS Agent]

Rumbelle has descended into full on domestic abuse this season with Rumpel imprisoning Belle and later chaining her to him after she expressed her wish to leave him. There isn't any coming back from that. Add to that the fact that he has previously murdered his wife for leaving him and this relationship is scary. If they have Rumpel change his ways because of his love for Belle then the message becomes that you should never give up on your abuser and that you actually can change him with the power of love. That's a truly terrible message to send. It's not hopeful. It's a recipe for disaster. If Belle wasn't a Disney princess, she'd leave that relationship in a body bag. I'm truly sorry for the fans watching their ship go down in flames, but this needs to end. Please make it stop.

[daxx]

The only thing that would make this ok is if Rumple isn't Rumple. I speculated awhile back that perhaps the Rumple we've seen all season is actually Jafar. Perhaps Rumple is still trapped in that dreamscape from the premiere. No actual spoilers inform this speculation since I don't follow Rumbelle spoilers like at all.

I still think the Oracle from the start of the season was Jafar, particularly since we didn't see the EQ kill her. It was all hearsay and has the EQ killed anyone?

[Rumsy4]

Rumple is very much Rumple. I'm disgusted by the way Adam is still promoting Rumbelle, and basically condoning domestic violence. 

[maryle]

I always knew Rumbelle will be back together but this time they been too far abd I won't buy their little twist to white washing Rumple from what he did.

The fact that the writers don't seem to care that they wrote the typical case of domestic violence for drama is horrible.  They know the abuse will be overlook by the rumbeller. I guess that what a family show do these days.

[Free]

Quote

I guess that what a family show do these days.

It hasn't been a family show in a while, sadly.

[Souris]

3 hours ago, Free said:

It hasn't been a family show in a while, sadly.

Once is a family show because it has fairy-tale characters in the way that Archer is a family show because it's a cartoon.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Souris said:

Once is a family show because it has fairy-tale characters in the way that Archer is a family show because it's a cartoon.

I'd like to remind everyone that S1 had an episode all about rape. Same show had an arc all about Frozen. (Said arc had adultery put in a positive light.) It's like those adult elements in Disney films that go over kids' heads, only they hit everyone like a sledge hammer.

Edited November 27, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[InsertWordHere]

So is the love affair between Regina Repulsa and Lord Zeddstiltskin finally over now so I can stop watching their scenes through my fingers? Did they do anything with that pairing that couldn't have been done with the existing five season history between the two characters? Because take away the kissing and I think both characters would have acted in the exact same way. Did this pairing exist just to make Zelena get jealous and become a good guy for five seconds? We didn't need the kissing for that.

I still can't believe that the Evil Cleavage has only been pointed at Rumple this season, with no attempts on the two other male main cast members she tried to seduce prior to season six.

[Free]

23 hours ago, Souris said:

Once is a family show because it has fairy-tale characters in the way that Archer is a family show because it's a cartoon.

Archer is more in vein of adult animated comedies like South Park, but IA about OuaT, it just used to be known for its Disney/fairy tale elements hence the family friendly label early on.

Quote

So is the love affair between Regina Repulsa and Lord Zeddstiltskin finally over now so I can stop watching their scenes through my fingers? Did they do anything with that pairing that couldn't have been done with the existing five season history between the two characters? Because take away the kissing and I think both characters would have acted in the exact same way. Did this pairing exist just to make Zelena get jealous and become a good guy for five seconds? We didn't need the kissing for that.

I still can't believe that the Evil Cleavage has only been pointed at Rumple this season, with no attempts on the two other male main cast members she tried to seduce prior to season six.

Honestly no, other than stretching out a pointless subplot that pissed more people off for about half a season.  It came out of nowhere and wasted screen time.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Free

[KingOfHearts]

I was going to put my essay in the Regina thread, but it quickly went beyond the scope of her character.

Edit: I went ahead and wrote a post in the Regina thread anyway.

For the longest time, Regina has been my favorite character. I've enjoyed her costumes, snark, and strong presence. At one point in time, I even felt sorry no one was eating her lasagna. Despite the overwhelming criticism surrounding her character, I've tried to find the bright sides and balance it out. I haven't blindly sung her praises, but until now I've avoided hopping on the anti-Regina bandwagon. I suppose I'm like Belle with Rumple - I always thought there was hope for her as a human being. She had the good influences, the second chances, and moments of self-awareness. It all seemed like a recipe for redemption, and though there was much backsliding along the way, I saw slow progress. That all toppled down in 6x09.

I was more forgiving in 6x01 because Robin had just died and Regina was in the middle of grieving. She had also just had half of her psyche ripped away, which should have added an additional effect. But, that was an emotional outburst. It wasn't a premeditated feeling inside. She didn't say she would never forgive Zelena. They had both been through a lot, so it was more understandable. (Though a little contrived to create drama.) Ever since then, she had given her sister the cold shoulder and let her Evil Queen half manipulate her. I thought maybe this was because she was afraid of confrontation or just too absorbed in her own problems to consider others. (We'll get to that.) But, we're back to what seemed like a brief spat in 6x01 - unfair unforgiveness over Robin's death.

With Regina's speech to Zelena, she is right back to where she started. She is again blaming someone for what another person did to her love. She is no different from the place she was in S1. All her character development has amounted to nothing. Maybe she's not a coldblooded killer any more, but doing good deeds out of selfishness is not much better. Her actions may look righteous superficially, but her heart is in the same vengeful place. What makes it even worse is that the Evil Queen has nothing to do with it. All those years spent avenging Daniel was pre-Rumple Regina using the EQ's fire as a tool. EQ was tactless and aimless. Regina can't blame that persona for her problems. It's been her own narcissism the whole time.

There's been many bouts of regression in the past, so you may be wondering why this is what did it in for me. Well, 6x09 highlighted the stark difference between Zelena and Regina.

Zelena is a character who has been rejected or betrayed repeatedly by every single person she has tried to love in her life. Her mother, her adoptive father, Rumple, Hades, The Evil Queen, and now Regina. She is desperate to love and to be loved. She's incredibly insecure because she has been unable to trust any person she has ever interacted with. Every time she opens her heart, it gets broken. Regina, on the other hand, has a loyal fanbase of supporters that have done nothing but stood by her side and given her every benefit of a doubt. Zelena has many more valid reasons to be mistrusting of people and weary of joining the heroes. No one has been kind to her or given her the mercy they've shown to Regina. It's especially sad because that's all Zelena wants - to be validated. Whenever Regina approaches her, it's because she wants something or she wants to berate her. 

Zelena is not looking for all the bells and whistles, or to be hailed a hero, or to get her perfect happy ending. It would take so little to attract her to the side of good. Even though Regina has abused her and the heroes have done nothing but given her nasty looks, she has still tried to set a better example and move on from her past. Regina, on the other hand, has had all the rewards and love in the world, and still has hated doing good. She cares more about self-image and self-righteousness than actually building relationships with anyone. Zelena is not looking to take some moral high ground. She wants to have a family. It's not bad that she wants to be loved, though getting a kid was not the best way to do it. But she's had zero good influences, so how can she know what's best?

Even though Zelena is supposed to be the jealous one, she is more humble than Regina. In many cases, her jealousy is actually justified somewhat. Why does Regina get a host of loved ones? Why does she get fifty billion chances? Why does she get the fancy house, the loving family, and the stickers for being a "hero"? Regina's done so much worse than her, yet she gets all the shiny toys. You can't use Henry's excuse that Regina and Rumple are better because they want to change. Zelena has wanted to change too, more so than them. We haven't seen her make fat jokes to pregnant women or say she wants to rip Hook's throat out. I've seen so many obvious differences between 3B and 6A Zelena. Many more than I've seen in Regina between the beginning of the entire show and now.

I'm not saying Zelena is perfect, but she has the attitude Regina should have had a long time ago. She is much better fitted for redemption and has her heart closer to a better place than Regina ever has. She still has a lot of work to do, but all of that will be stopped if Regina is the only face of "heroism" she ever sees. At this point, I hope Regina jumps off a cliff and Zelena earns the happy life she desires. One where she can love someone and be loved back. #TeamZelena all the freaking way.

Edited November 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

So is the love affair between Regina Repulsa and Lord Zeddstiltskin finally over now so I can stop watching their scenes through my fingers? Did they do anything with that pairing that couldn't have been done with the existing five season history between the two characters? Because take away the kissing and I think both characters would have acted in the exact same way. Did this pairing exist just to make Zelena get jealous and become a good guy for five seconds? We didn't need the kissing for that.

Yeah. This episode proved that this creepy "romance" subplot was absolutely pointless. Yuck.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Yeah. This episode proved that this creepy "romance" subplot was absolutely pointless. Yuck.

The Evil Queen and Rumple are now back in "power struggle" mode, which means they got reset. The fact Rumple still loved Belle and the Evil Queen was reluctant to kill Zelena just proves it wasn't built to last.

[Camera One]

Quote

Adam Horowitz Verified account‏@AdamHorowitzLA@VictoriousGank there's an old saying. It's always darkest before the dawn.

So this means we'll get a scene in the future that goes like this?

RUMPLE: The tea that sped up your pregnancy. It wasn't me.

THE EVIL QUEEN: It was me!  

BELLE: Rumple?  Is that true?  It wasn't you?  I KNEW there was good in you!  

BLUE: Belle, I'm so sorry, I lost your baby to Villain of The Next Arc!  You'll have to go save him.

RUMPLE (to Belle):  Don't worry.  We'll save him.  TOGETHER.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

With Regina's speech to Zelena, she is right back to where she started.

I don't get this. Do the writers want us to stop rooting for Regina? What's the point of wasting our time for 5 seasons, only to show Regina is still as petty and narcissistic as ever? That she still lacks empathy, and only wants to play the hero? I can't believe I'm feeling sorry for Zelena!

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

So this means we'll get a scene in the future that goes like this?

RUMPLE: The tea that sped up your pregnancy. It wasn't me.

THE EVIL QUEEN: It was me!  

BELLE: Rumple?  Is that true?  It wasn't you?  I KNEW there was good in you!  

BLUE: Belle, I'm so sorry, I lost your baby to Villain of The Next Arc!  You'll have to go save him.

RUMPLE (to Belle):  Don't worry.  We'll save him.  TOGETHER.

Ugh. I'm sure it's going down like this 100%.

[Free]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I don't get this. Do the writers want us to stop rooting for Regina? What's the point of wasting our time for 5 seasons, only to show Regina is still as petty and narcissistic as ever? That she still lacks empathy, and only wants to play the hero? I can't believe I'm feeling sorry for Zelena!

Ugh. I'm sure it's going down like this 100%.

Probably not the intention, but there's no good reason to rehash this nonsense all over again.

[Camera One]

Quote

I don't get this. Do the writers want us to stop rooting for Regina? What's the point of wasting our time for 5 seasons, only to show Regina is still as petty and narcissistic as ever? That she still lacks empathy, and only wants to play the hero? I can't believe I'm feeling sorry for Zelena!

They're probably dragging out the conflict so we will get a big moment where either Zelena or Regina or both are dying and they realize they're Sistas Forever.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

BLUE: Belle, I'm so sorry, I lost your baby to Villain of The Next Arc!  You'll have to go save him.

BLUE: Psssst, Black Fairy. I need you protect this baby for me for a while. You owe me a favor, anyway.

Quote

They're probably dragging out the conflict so we will get a big moment where either Zelena or Regina or both are dying and they realize they're Sistas Forever.

Because we totally didn't do anything like that in 5B.

Edited November 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Quote

I haven't blindly sung her praises, but until now I've avoided hopping on the anti-Regina bandwagon. I suppose I'm like Belle with Rumple - I always thought there was hope for her as a human being. She had the good influences, the second chances, and moments of self-awareness. It all seemed like a recipe for redemption, and though there was much backsliding along the way, I saw slow progress. That all toppled down in 6x09.

 

I'll more thoroughly respond to your essay when I'm not on mobile, @KingOfHearts. But I do find it interesting that many of us can pinpoint the exact moment or episode where they gave up on Regina's character. I was like you and was willing to give Regina's redemption a chance back in Season 3, but my glass shattering moment (a pun and a reference to a HIMYM episode where the gang suddenly realizes something annoying about someone else) was 4x05 "Breaking Glass." Before that episode, I was willing to look past a lot of her worst characteristics and had hope Graham would be addressed, but that episode pushed me beyond the brink. There's no going back now.

With other characters on the show I ended up falling out of love with, it's usually a slow backslide, like Snow and Rumple. I can't pinpoint the exact episode that did it for me, but I guess it was a gradual process over many seasons. But with disliking Regina, it's like ripping off a band-aid and saying "enough is enough, how many chances do you need?"

Back to the Zelena/Regina relationship, though. One line of Zelena's really stuck out to me:

Quote

"I should have been the one to reach out and find you, to apologize."

This is exactly what Regina should have been saying seasons ago to Snow and Emma, but that ship has long sailed. When I mention "Breaking Glass" as my episode that tipped the scale, it's exactly because of this. Regina should have been the one to reach out and find Emma to apologize, but that never happened. It's amazing that Zelena has far more self-awareness than her sister and can own up to her mistake and apologize, yet Team Hero treats Regina like a saint and Zelena like an annoying pest. I was actually looking forward to Regina and Zelena's sisterhood being explored this season, but Regina placing Robin's death entirely at Zelena's feet is frustrating. Why didn't Regina get this upset with Zelena when Zelena was the one who "violated" (as the show would say) Robin? Why is Regina not placing any blame for Robin's death on Emma? Why haven't we gotten any follow-up to Regina's comment about wanting to rip out Hook's throat? Shouldn't Regina have some more animosity towards him?

Edited November 28, 2016 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, Curio said:

I was like you and was willing to give Regina's redemption a chance back in Season 3, but my glass shattering moment ... was 4x05 "Breaking Glass." Before that episode, I was willing to look past a lot of her worst characteristics and had hope Graham would be addressed, but that episode pushed me beyond the brink.

Pretty much the same for me. After "Breaking Glass", there's no going back. Also, I too have gradually fallen out of love with Rumple and Snow as characters. Our similar reactions points to obvious flaws in writing, IMO.

[daxx]

I stopped liking Rumple when he lied to Belle about the dagger and then when he tried to hat Emma, so I can narrow down the arc. I stopped liking Snow after the boiling bottle incident and the "Emma" when Charming was almost struck by the light pole then she later said "we" failed Emma. We who? The royal we? 

[KingOfHearts]

The similarity between 6x09 and 4x05 is that Regina was a total bitch to someone who wanted to apologize and make up with her. Emma and Zelena were both in similar positions. Both of them were indirectly involved in taking Robin away, and got all the blame for it. What's funny is that Regina herself was also involved in both scenarios. The reason why 6x09 was the nail in the coffin for me was probably because I'm just more attached to Zelena than Emma. 4x05 was awful and highlighted how little Regina learned, but it didn't strike the same chord with me. It was equally bad, though.

As for Rumple, the moment I started really hating him was the end of 5A when he made Hook's sacrifice worthless. That made me the angriest. He was irredeemable long before that, but that's when I started to really detest his character. I stopped believing in Rumpbelle in 4A. I wish kicking him over the town line would have been a permanent breakup. That would have made the scene so much more powerful.

Edit: Another thing, at least for me, is in 6x09, Regina considered herself a hero. In 4x05, her progression toward the light was still in a very immature stage. There's a whole new level of hypocrisy at play now.

Edited November 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Dianthus]

I don't know that I can pinpoint the moment that turned me against Regina. I have a strong anti-Authoritarian streak in me though, so I was predisposed to not like her, even if I was willing to give her redemption a chance. I'm always going to fall for the misfits and the underdogs.

It sticks out like a sore thumb, too, that Emma and Zelena have so much in common (abandonment and betrayal), but the writers do nothing with it. A lot (all?) of the characters have it to a certain extent, and that's part of what brought Hook and Emma together, but here's yet another thing staring them in the face, that they choose to ignore for the sake of manufactured drama.

[maryle]

Strangely, I never fall out of love for any of the main characters.

I just liked or click with some and others I don't.

I sill love Rumple as antagonist and consider the middle ground they try to balance a total disservice to a character who could be a great great bid bad. Still don't hate the character just not interesting at what they choose to do with it.

Snowing still love them but hate what the writers choose to do with them and the lack of relationship with Emma.

Zelena still a lost puppy searching for love at the wrong place.

Regina  just never click for me I was shocked to see the following she have and still not really understanding it.

It's not I can't love a EQ despite me I love all the Lannister family and hope Cercei live still the end of GOT. But, Cercei is believable and other reaction to her are understanding. And the actress is really really great dcomparin to what I saw of this year EQ.

Anyway, Regina or the double EQ make me gave up the show this week(will watched just what I like). I realized that the writers love her too much now for the show not  center around her. Do not feel like a ensemble anymore.

So, writers it is not you , it's me. 

Always loved Emma  and love her more by the fact that she always seems taking for granted by everyone. She really not a Mary Sue that gives her point with me. Love Hook since the start. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by maryle
Spelling

[daxx]

@maryle and like McCoy said, when an earth woman says it's her and not you, it's definitely you. (Eyebrow raise)

[Mari]

I've never liked her, although I found her interesting in the first season.  I couldn't wait for some comeuppance.  The despising started with the lasagna scene.  It was so blatantly manipulative, that I went oppositional.

[Mathius]

3 hours ago, Mari said:

I've never liked her, although I found her interesting in the first season.  I couldn't wait for some comeuppance.  The despising started with the lasagna scene.  It was so blatantly manipulative, that I went oppositional.

Eh, the lasagna scene was just an extension of the one in the previous episode where Regina cried about not being invited to the family dinner.

THAT was the exact moment me and many others became oppositional. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

58 minutes ago, Mathius said:

Eh, the lasagna scene was just an extension of the one in the previous episode where Regina cried about not being invited to the family dinner.

THAT was the exact moment me and many others became oppositional. 

That was it for me, too. I only managed to get through the first season by reminding myself that they were building to a massive comeuppance. I cheered at Blue's "If I were you, I'd run" (or however she put it). I was a little disappointed that the fallout from that actually just amounted to one halfhearted torches and pitchforks mob that was easily dispersed, but I was kind of okay with her struggle to change. Then she lost me for good (and I nearly quit the show) with the tears about not being invited to the first family dinner of the family that had been kept apart because of her. That was a big "oh, hell no" for both the character and the writers. Since I've always seen her as a narcissistic psychopath incapable of empathy, I wasn't really that surprised by the way she talked to Zelena. I'm just surprised that the writers went all the way there. It remains to be seen if that's what they meant to show or if that scene will be entirely forgotten. I'm not holding my breath for any further comeuppance or for any effect on any of the relationships. My guess is that they're so deluded that they don't even realize that they wrote the utmost in hypocrisy, coming from a character who's supposedly a hero and who has had all darkness removed from her, and yet who is still a worse person than the one who is "wicked."