Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Curio]

That's why I said "basically" be the adoptive/step mother, not "legally." Regina might not have court-approved parental duties to Roland and Rape Baby, but the show makes it pretty clear that that's where they're taking her character. It hasn't happened yet, but it seems obvious that the show is setting Regina up to marry Robin and get custody of Zelena's child and Roland. Dating someone doesn't automatically make you a parent, but Regina at the moment does act very motherly towards Roland. On the other hand, even though he's dating Emma, Hook acts more like Henry's friend or cool older brother than a parent. And I can't even begin to classify how Robin acts with Henry because we barely see those two interact.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

And I can't even begin to classify how Robin acts with Henry because we barely see those two interact.

 

Because they don't interact. Have they ever spoken to each other? I find that whatever we see on screen, like Robin with his arm around Henry might be coming from Sean directly. 

 

They should do a show about #offscreenville, where conversations happen, dates happen, and so on. I'd watch the hell out of that.

[orza]

No, Regina is not "basically" being a parent to Roland. Acting protective and being a regular presence in a child's life and being an actual parent with all responsibilities and obligations that entails are very different things.

[Curio]

Acting protective and being a regular presence in a child's life and being an actual parent with all responsibilities and obligations that entails are very different things.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point you're trying to make. I'm the last person to defend Regina on these boards, but being protective of a child and being a regular presence in their life is oftentimes a lot more work and effort than real biological parents give to their children. If Regina and Robin decided to never get married and she's effectively Robin's girlfriend the rest of Roland's life without any legal papers, can she never be a parental figure to Roland? At what point does it change from being "daddy's girlfriend" to quasi-mom?

Edited October 8, 2015 by Curio

[Serena]

No, Regina is not "basically" being a parent to Roland. Acting protective and being a regular presence in a child's life and being an actual parent with all responsibilities and obligations that entails are very different things.

Then that child's only real parent is Little John.

[orza]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point you're trying to make. I'm the last person to defend Regina on these boards, but being protective of a child and being a regular presence in their life is oftentimes a lot more work and effort than real biological parents give to their children. If Regina and Robin decided to never get married and she's effectively Robin's girlfriend the rest of Roland's life without any legal papers, can she never be a parental figure to Roland? At what point does it change from being "daddy's girlfriend" to quasi-mom?

Some parents neglect their children and some people pretty much keep their significant other's children at arm's length. What you are describing is the exception and not the rule. It takes years and sometime it never happens that a child accepts the SO, even the live-in one, as a parental figure, especially with older children. Henry is pretty much past the age where he will form a parental bond with either Hook or Robin. He'll probably become close to them but that is different than an parent-child relationship. With Roland it's a toss-up given his young age.

[Curio]

Henry is pretty much past the age where he will form a parental bond with either Hook or Robin. He'll probably become close to them but that is different than an parent-child relationship. With Roland it's a toss-up given his young age.

 

If it comes down to being an older age and accepting parental figures, then Emma is totally screwed accepting Snow and Charming as her parents.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Curio

[kili]

I just realized that once Zelena has her child, Regina will basically be the adoptive mother of three different kids, all with different mothers.

 

And she has attempted to kill all three of those biological mothers.

[orza]

If it comes down to being an older age and accepting parental figures, then Emma is totally screwed accepting Snow and Charming as her parents.

We've seen on more than one occasion that while Emma may call them Mom and Dad and accepts that they are related she treats them as peers. She even said explicitly during the Neverland arc that they were equals. From their interactions they appear to have settled into something similar to a close sibling relationship. I would not characterize them as having a parent-child relationship.That is not surprising and consistent with real life when adults meet their birth parents.

[Curio]

I was being a bit facetious with the Emma comment, but I don't think Henry will have much of a problem eventually accepting Robin and Hook as father figures in the future. The whole concept of the show forces the audience to accept that Emma's parents are her same age, so I doubt Henry will struggle much with having a parental bond with Captain Hook and Robin Hood. Yes, Henry may be older than Roland, but age shouldn't affect how you view the relationships in your life. Becoming older doesn't mean you stop needing or looking for parental figures; you can have a parental relationship with someone and have a friendly, peer camaraderie. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

[Rumsy4]

And she has attempted to kill all three of those biological mothers.

Isn't that wonderful! :-p

[Shanna Marie]

Yes, Henry may be older than Roland, but age shouldn't affect how you view the relationships in your life.

Well, technically, Roland is not only older than Henry, he's older than Emma. But there was that curse ...

 

Regardless of whether Henry ever sees Robin (or Hook) as a father figure, or whether Roland thinks of Regina as a mother, Regina seems to already think of them all being a family. She was talking nostalgically to Henry about liking it when it was just her, Robin, Roland, and Henry (before that awful Marian came to ruin things), even though there's no way to fit that into the timeline. Roland was holding on to Henry before the tornado came, and then Robin was standing with his arm around Henry, and I think that's the first interaction at all between Roland and Henry, and I think the only line Henry has said directly to Robin was "Cool!" when they were first introduced.

 

That's going to be one wacky blended family when it all comes together, since the mother of Baby Green murdered the mother of his/her half brother, and then their stepmother (also Baby Green's aunt) has tried to kill both their mothers. And that's not even bringing Henry's tangled family tree into the equation.

 

I would say that at this point, Henry isn't seeing Hook as a stepdad. He's more like a friend of his parents -- his dad's old friend who can tell him stories about when his dad was a kid and his mom's closest friend, whom Henry can trust to have her best interests at heart. He's kind of a young honorary uncle figure, the cool adult a kid can hang out with and not really be treated like a child.

[Free]

And she has attempted to kill all three of those biological mothers.

 

Don't forget she chased Ethan when he was a little boy and had his dad arrested, seperating them until his dad died.

 

"Poor" Regina just wanted some love.

[kili]

Don't forget she chased Ethan when he was a little boy and had his dad arrested, seperating them until his dad died.

 

 

Actually, he didn't happen to die. She said she murdered him and buried him in the woods (where Ethan found his body). I guess having somebody who was immune to her curse would wreck her Happy Ending (and she didn't feel like letting him go).

 

With Hansel and Gretel, she just imprisoned their dad, but he did manage to survive and she didn't actually give him a bad life in Storybrooke (she made them homeless orphans in SB).

 

So, that's one parent she murdered (two if you count Mariane before time travel), 3 she attempted to kill and 1 she imprisoned (well, she actually imprisoned all five of the parents, but I'm just counting her worse crime of murder or attempted murder). Being the parent of a child that Regina wants is not the safest relationship to have.

Edited October 8, 2015 by kili

[Rumsy4]

The greatest WTF to me is that the writers try to paint Regina as having a soft-heart for children. All the kids she sent to the blind witch, massacred, orphaned, and/or abused, would beg to differ. Roland certainly falls into the category of someone who lost their mother because of Regina, no matter the retcons or alternate-timelines. This is another case of Regina benefiting from her victims along the road to "Redemption".

Edited October 8, 2015 by Rumsy4

[mjgchick]

Every one of her relationships are toxic. lol

[Free]

Actually, he didn't happen to die. She said she murdered him and buried him in the woods (where Ethan found his body). I guess having somebody who was immune to her curse would wreck her Happy Ending (and she didn't feel like letting him go).

 

Thanks, I just remembered him having to dig up his corpse.

[Dianthus]

mjgchick, on 08 Oct 2015 - 4:33 PM, said:

Every one of her relationships are toxic. lol

THIS! I know they say there are none so blind as those who will not see, but how can the writers/Evil Regals be so blasé about this?

[Shanna Marie]

This is a slightly older topic, but something else I was watching reminded me of this and made me think of some more things.

 

So, about the whole lack of reaction from Emma to Hook's heart being nearly crushed in the 4A finale, and the discussion about how they didn't show us the reaction because they were saving that for the season finale when she saw him killed in the AU.

 

The problem I have with that is that regardless of whether or not we saw it, it happened. Within the world of the show, Emma is a person, and a person would have reacted to that. Her reaction should have mattered, especially since they'd built up to it with an entire episode in which the emotional conflict surrounding both Hook and Emma was her holding back emotionally because she was afraid of losing him like she'd lost everyone else. There was the whole bit with her sending him to safety and him going the other way. There was his conversation with Elsa in which she suggested that maybe it wasn't about him. Then there was the big confrontation at the end, leading to the first kiss he initiated, and then the follow-up to that was her getting the nerve up to ask him out. So when he very nearly died and she was there to watch it, there should have been a reaction. Emma as a person would have reacted in some way, and it would be important because it would have something to do with how she went forward with him.

 

I also don't think it would have undermined or taken away from the bit in the season finale because the situations were so different. In the season finale, it wasn't at all about "everyone I love dies." It was about "I never told him I loved him." In the mid-season episode, she wasn't there yet. There was no expectation of an "I love you," no regret for what hadn't been said or done. That was all about the fear of losing him, the risk that he was on the verge of being another Graham/Walsh/Neal, that maybe she had been right to fear getting into another relationship. Did the fact that he was on the verge of death but miraculously didn't die, against all odds, make her feel like she broke the curse and the jinx was over, so she was safe with him? Did it make her back away again out of fear, until she realized that her wanting to be with him was stronger than her wanting to stay safe?

 

And all it would have taken was a little bit more -- her immediate reaction there in the tower rather than waiting however long it was and walking across town before restoring his heart. That may be one of the weirdest choices they've ever made in this show. Why wait, and why go to the hallway by the bathrooms at Granny's rather than taking care of his heart right there, where we could have seen Emma's immediate reaction? She could have given him an immediate hug, yelled at him about not telling her, cursed herself for not realizing that he'd been trying to signal her. By the time they got to Granny's, the important stuff was over. These writers really do love #ItHappenedOffscreen.

[Mari]

Moved from the Emma thread:

But betrayal/rejection are Emma's hot buttons, so the lack of faith in her should really, really negatively affect her post-darkness. This includes Hook and his "I loved you". Let's remove Hook from the equation and say that Snow told Emma that. Does it change how you would perceive Emma's feelings on the subject?

 

 

Wow, that would have changed everything.  Everyone would have brought out their ready-made "kill Snow now" placards.  

 

Maybe it's different since this is romantic love vs. family love.  Nothing should change the way a parent feels towards their child, but it is within Hook's right as a romantic partner to say that since Dark Emma is not Emma.

 

I'm not going to say if Hook's "I loved you." was a good idea, or not.  I think there's a good argument for and against, and appreciate the attempt to keep him from falling into a "Who Can Enable Their Dark One Companion the Most!" contest with Belle, even though I know it likely is not what Emma should have heard right then.

 

I think you're both right--there would have been pitchforks out for Snow, if Snow had said that line.  But, there are several differences between the Hook/Emma relationship and the Snow/Emma relationship, and I don't think the pitchforks would be entirely because of the difference between romantic and parental love.  

 

For one thing, the show has not demonstrated Snow having an unconditional love for an uncursed, normal Emma.  In seasons 2b, 3, and 4, the show has not taken the time to develop the Snow/Emma relationship, and because of the neglect, and the few really unfortunate scenes they have had, there's a lot of ammunition for "Snow doesn't really care much for Emma because Emma is an adult and Snow can't be her mommy like she wanted, and besides, Emma has too many issues for Snow to bother with.  Where's Nealflake or Regina, so Snow can spend time with the people she really cares about?"   The show has done much more to show that Snow is deeply attached to Regina, than it has to show that Snow is deeply attached to Emma. 

 

With Hook, they have repeatedly shown that Hook is intensely in love with Emma.  He's sacrificed his time, his ship, his life . . .   Part of the reason it is different coming from Hook, is because there's been no doubt that he does love uncursed, normal Emma, issues and all.  If it were a choice between Emma (and her walls and issues) and any other character, Hook would always pick Emma.  It gives Hook a little more benefit of the doubt, simply because if he said it, there's a reason.  It may not end up being something beneficial, in the long term, but it's not just an angry outlash comment, or him finally admitting his true feelings of indifference.

 

In some ways, it probably hurts more than Snow saying it, because Emma probably still half expected it from Snow.  She didn't expect it from Hook.  Hook's been too unconditionally loving and supportive.

 

I actually thought it was one of the better scenes, so far, simply because it was emotionally complex, and emotionally realistic on more than one level.  It was a hurtful comment, and it seemed to pain both Emma to hear it and Hook to say it, and it makes sense that someone who'd seen Rumple turn into The Rumplestiltskin would be terrified at the first signs of the same thing happening to someone he loved--even if it turns out that was an unwise choice and drove Emma away.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Mari

[HoodlumSheep]

^ yes to your entire post, Mari!

This is a situation where there can be good arguments for both sides. It was kind of a lose-lose situation. I do think that Hook ultimately made the right decision in the end, though.

[Rumsy4]

I actually thought it was one of the better scenes, so far, simply because it was emotionally complex, and emotionally realistic on more than one level.  It was a hurtful comment, and it seemed to pain both Emma to hear it and Hook to say it, and it makes sense that someone who'd seen Rumple turn into The Rumplestiltskin would be terrified at the first signs of the same thing happening to someone he loved--even if it turns out that was an unwise choice and drove Emma away.

 

Excellent point! There was so much raw emotion in the scene. The realistic nature of their interaction gave it greater impact. People sometimes say really hurtful things to their significant other when they are in conflict. Making up and healing from those kinds of wounds is also part of a healthy relationship. I don't think anything was said that would be impossible to come back from. Hook hurt Emma by making that statement. But she put him on the spot by asking that question. He didn't throw it in her face just to hurt her. She was basically asking him to be vulnerable with the Dark One, while she was playing mind games with him. But Hook is still working to figure how to free Emma from the Darkness. Emma and Hook will eventually be able to recover and heal from all this pain. But for now, it's going to hurt like heck. 

Edited October 12, 2015 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

On a different relationship, what does it say about Outlaw Queen that Robin is kind of excited and happy about the baby, but doesn't want to tell Regina that? It doesn't bode well for their future parenting plans or their relationship if Robin can't express joy in his child for fear of upsetting Regina. 

[Camera One]

How did people like the conversations between Hook and Robin in "Siege Perilous"?  More effective than Robin and Will?  Is this the start of a beautiful friendship?  Do you want to see more?

[PixiePaws1]

You know if take the name of this ep at just word value and not the pretentious olde worlde literature meaning...Killian was stuck in his own siege perilous with DS having Shanghaied his ship...and him with it.

[tennisgurl]

Hook really is like a nice thing of nutmeg. Add him to anything and it instantly become more delicious. Even stuff that's normally flavorless and bland, like Robin. 

[Shanna Marie]

This is a situation where there can be good arguments for both sides. It was kind of a lose-lose situation. I do think that Hook ultimately made the right decision in the end, though.

This is where I think the context makes all the difference. The "I loved you" did not come from a discussion about their relationship. It was a direct response to her telling him -- after kidnapping him -- that if he said he didn't love her, she'd let him go. So it becomes a potential deal with the Dark One. He can't make himself say he doesn't love her, but there's some danger in saying he does love her. If saying he doesn't love her wins his freedom, does that imply that saying he does love her means agreeing to be her captive? Using the past tense was a rather clever move on his part because it was the truth but perhaps not the whole truth, not lying and saying he doesn't love her, but not falling into a potential trap.

 

Hook hurt Emma by making that statement. But she put him on the spot by asking that question. He didn't throw it in her face just to hurt her. She was basically asking him to be vulnerable with the Dark One, while she was playing mind games with him.

While I'm sympathetic for her overall situation, as she got into this by making a sacrifice, and apparently something bad did happen to get her to where she is, I can't feel too terribly sympathetic in this instance. When you're playing mind games with someone and manipulating him emotionally because you have an agenda and are using him, and when you're making sure you're keeping him under your power and off-balance, you don't get to feel sorry for yourself when he guards himself emotionally and says something that hurts your feelings. Everything she said and did to him in that scene was specifically designed to get under his skin and even hurt him. How did she expect him to react? The real low blow was telling him that the Dark One was an improvement on Rumple, when she knows, both as Emma and as the Dark One, that as the Dark One, Rumple murdered the woman he had loved before he became the Dark One, and Hook was there to see it. Hook was also on the front lines for watching the Rumple/Belle relationship. He saw the way Rumple acted with Belle and knew what Rumple was really up to behind her back, how he was lying to her, deceiving her, and manipulating her while playing the loving husband the entire time, and it sounds like he was the one doing most of the picking up the pieces in the aftermath, as Belle's primary confidant.

 

She's been manipulating him ever since the return to Storybrooke rather than dealing with him with any honesty or giving him any agency. She poofs him away to her house instead of just talking to him and maybe telling him where to meet her. Instead of talking to him and inviting him to lunch, she orders food, gives him a note telling him where to go, and then makes the ship sail away under her control. So she can't really expect honesty and vulnerability from him. We've seen that Rumple did have times when he was acting like a normal person with Belle, when he was doing things that were in Belle's comfort zone and having "normal" dates, so it is possible for Emma to have done that sort of thing with Hook. She just hasn't, probably for a good reason, but she can't expect him to act like things are normal when she's not acting normal.

 

My read of her reaction was that he said what she expected him to say and what she needed him to say, maybe even what she kind of hoped he would say (because he'd have been getting himself into a dangerous trap if he'd said he loved her), but that didn't mean it didn't hurt to hear it. Maybe like someone who's deliberately saying cruel things to drive someone away for their own protection -- even if that's what you want to happen because if they stick around they'll get killed, it still hurts if they take your word for it and leave.

 

On a different relationship, what does it say about Outlaw Queen that Robin is kind of excited and happy about the baby, but doesn't want to tell Regina that?

That gave me a chill. How is he going to deal with things after the baby is born? Will he not be allowed to show love or happiness? Or is the fact that Regina apparently plans to take the baby and raise it as her own, forgetting who the mother is (another potion, like she took with Henry?) going to cover for that, making it okay for him to love his own child? Otherwise, we've got the makings of yet another evil stepmother scenario where she gets jealous of her husband loving his own child. The ghost of Leo pops up and yells, "Run! Now! While you still can!"

[Dianthus]

Camera One, on 12 Oct 2015 - 7:06 PM, said:

How did people like the conversations between Hook and Robin in "Siege Perilous"?  More effective than Robin and Will?  Is this the start of a beautiful friendship?  Do you want to see more?

I enjoyed them. As others have said, it's good to see both of them interacting with someone other than his SO, especially in Robin's case. The poor man actually gets to show some personality for a change. I'm hoping for more between them, and it looks like we might actually get some, since Hook's decided he needs a thief.

[Rumsy4]

How did people like the conversations between Hook and Robin in "Siege Perilous"?  More effective than Robin and Will?  Is this the start of a beautiful friendship?  Do you want to see more?

 

I liked it! Hook is in a more equal footing with Robin than David. David is a Prince/King, is the father of the woman Hook loves, and looks at him suspiciously every other week. I'm also enjoying Hook's friendship/working relationship with Belle, but it's nice to see him building other relationships as well. Besides, it's good for Hook to have a "mate" to talk to who also does not have a download of cursed memories. ;-) Robin seems to have adjusted better to living in Storybrooke though (sleeping in mansions and using cellphones), while Hook is still a bit of an outsider. 

 

I couldn't care less about Robin normally, but he actually showed a spark of personality in his scenes with Hook. Robin was too mopey in his scenes with poor Will. I have started muting the sound whenever Robin and Regina are having a tete a tete. Makes watching the episode so much more enjoyable! And lbr, all their conversations are variants of one theme: cheerleading Regina.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Rumsy4

[mjgchick]

It was nice to see Robin express his feelings on something. I did cringe when he said he felt bad that he slept with Regina's sister and not that oh he was violated? But seeing someone give him a shoulder to lean on was nice to see.

[Dianthus]

The nice thing about both of Hook's new friendships is that they actually feel organic and not forced. What a concept! Who would've thought a Captain Beauty friendship could be so well done? All three of them having relationship woes without all the "Boo-hoo, poor little me" bullshit we get from Queen Bitch is quite refreshing.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It was nice to see Robin express his feelings on something. I did cringe when he said he felt bad that he slept with Regina's sister and not that oh he was violated? But seeing someone give him a shoulder to lean on was nice to see.

I think it's proof that Regina is a black hole where characterization goes to die. 

 

 

All three of them having relationship woes without all the "Boo-hoo, poor little me" bullshit we get from Queen Bitch is quite refreshing.

Robin, Belle and Hook should just start a club for poor souls in love with Big Bads.

Edited October 13, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

On a different relationship, what does it say about Outlaw Queen that Robin is kind of excited and happy about the baby, but doesn't want to tell Regina that? It doesn't bode well for their future parenting plans or their relationship if Robin can't express joy in his child for fear of upsetting Regina. 

I thought it was sad, especially since as he said it, he was an unwilling participant in this. It's not his fault that Regina's crazy sister decided to use him as a pawn against her. It's a bad situation all around and he wants to make the most of it. He loves his kid, he should be able to express that.

 

I actually enjoyed the interaction between Hook and Robin because it gave us actual insight in what's going on with the character. 

[HoodlumSheep]

Going back to the CS scene and it's parallels with the Baelfire/Rumple relationship, I think tumblr has failed me for the first time. I only lurk there, but I haven't seen one gifset that attempts to covers the parallels, which kind of disappoints me. If only I had the technology skills :(. I've been enjoying reading the few Rumple/Bae vs. Rumbelle (and which relationship the CS scene parallels with more in that instance).

I think people are right when they say the situation is more similar with what happened between Rumple and his son. Love or power; you can't have both.

Edited October 13, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[scenicbyway]

On a different relationship, what does it say about Outlaw Queen that Robin is kind of excited and happy about the baby, but doesn't want to tell Regina that? It doesn't bode well for their future parenting plans or their relationship if Robin can't express joy in his child for fear of upsetting Regina. 

I feel like there are major problems with the Outlaw Queen relationship.  They barely know each other.  They are basically together because Tinkerbell told Regina he was a sure bet.  It's great that he felt an instant connection but for Regina she needed to proof in the form of his tattoo.

 

As for Zelena/Marian, if Robin was so in love with Regina, why was he even sleeping with Marian?  Wasn't the whole plan that he loved Regina and the separation was just temporary until Regina could find a way to bring them back?  What was that whole scene of Robin wanting to call her on his phone?  Why did it only take a couple of weeks for him to decide to start things up again with Marian?  Yes, it was terribly wrong for Zelena to trick him, but wasn't it also terribly wrong for him to cheat on Regina?  Didn't they have an understanding?

 

As for parenting the new baby, I can't imagine that Robin will really expect for Zelena to have no part of the baby's life especially after Roland has lost his mother.  Neither the Evil Queen or Wicked Witch are ideal mothers.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yes, it was terribly wrong for Zelena to trick him, but wasn't it also terribly wrong for him to cheat on Regina?  Didn't they have an understanding?

Robin's excuse is that he chose Marian, much like how he supposedly "chose" Regina midway through 4A. But I don't buy it for a second. He was practically forced to live with "Marian" to take care of her and Roland. It was a matter of convenience and him feeling guilty over letting his poor wife down. (After being manipulated, of course.) He never stopped having the hots for the Evil Queen, even while sleeping with Zarian. I'd say he cheated on both Regina and Marian multiple times in different ways, regardless of the Zelena antics.

 

I think he took advantage of Zarian to help himself get over Regina.

 

 

Neither the Evil Queen or Wicked Witch are ideal mothers.

 

Only when discussing this show would that sentence make an appearance.

[YaddaYadda]

I'll give Regina a point with the whole baby situation though. When she was going through her hypocrite tirade, she said that the baby will be loved, something that Zelena has yet to mention at all.

 

Robin is basically saying that he loves the baby even after what happened, and Regina is saying the baby will be loved. Zelena is looking at the baby as her chance to be loved. They're already stacking the deck against Zelena with this one,

[Camera One]

The scenes in "Siege Perilous" gave me the impression that the intention was to show Regina being unnecessarily "mean" to Zelena, and provide motivation for Zelena to wreak revenge later on in the season.   

[YaddaYadda]

The scenes in "Siege Perilous" gave me the impression that the intention was to show Regina being unnecessarily "mean" to Zelena, and provide motivation for Zelena to wreak revenge later on in the season.

 

I won't be surprised if we get Wicked vs Evil round 1,000,000,000.

 

But we've seen what it means when Regina loves someone. It's not pretty.

 

I agree, but the writers also want us to accept that Regina has changed (which, yeah, sort of, but not really at the same time).

[Rumsy4]

But Robin is also afriaid to share his joy about his child with Regina. Regina may intend to love the baby, but with the jealousy and resentment she is (naturally) feeling, it won't be easy. There will be struggles. There's also little Roland. It's just sooo unnecessarily complicated.

[KAOS Agent]

I just think of all the excitement and fun that expectant couples find in preparing for a baby and am deeply saddened that Robin can't get joy out of it. How does he broach the subject of setting up the nursery? Do they get a baby shower and how awkward would everyone be? As far as I'm concerned this is about an innocent baby and Regina and Zelena are making it all about them while Robin is tip toeing around relationship landmines and not feeling allowed to be happy about it. I'm not even sure how Regina feels about Robin in this situation. Lana said Regina views Robin as on parole for the rest of his life, which does not indicate a particularly strong foundation in the first place and now they want to add a baby to it? Does Regina even want the kid or is she just going along with it because she doesn't want Zelena to "win" and Robin wants it? This is in no way a healthy environment for a child. I want them to please stop making horrible drama at the expense of a helpless newborn.

[KingOfHearts]

But Robin is also afriaid to share his joy about his child with Regina. Regina may intend to love the baby, but with the jealousy and resentment she is (naturally) feeling, it won't be easy. There will be struggles. There's also little Roland. It's just sooo unnecessarily complicated.

 

It seems conflict is the only way the writers know how to write Robin. You'd think they'd stop writing this way after he figured out he was raped by Zelena and his wife is dead. I'm not saying he's fond of the wicked sister (though I wouldn't be surprised), but double-mindedness seems to be the go-to device for his characterization. In 3x03, he's divided over whether or not to use Roland as shadow bait. In S4, he's conflicted between Regina and Marian the whole way through.

[Camera One]

The Robin and Hook conversations weren't that great to me.  It's like they were trying to draw a simplistic comparison about how "complicated" they were, but the circumstances in both are extremely different.  I suppose the writer were going for Hook being in love with Emma inside the Dark One while Robin was in love with the baby despite the wicked vessel?  

 

Also, how long was Robin sitting at the diner.  Clearly, he has nothing else to do?

[Shanna Marie]

Where was Roland during all this? "Hey, I need a babysitter so I can sit and look at sonogram pics at the diner."

That's what I was wondering. He's the single parent to a small child who's been through some crazy stuff, and the kid is nowhere to be seen while dad hangs out all day in the diner. Little John should sue for custody. He seems to be raising the kid, anyway.

 

Meanwhile, did Regina suddenly come up with a new requirement for her happy ending that she's off pursuing? For most of last season, all she needed to be happy was Robin, and now she's been reunited with her soulmate and she's nowhere to be seen while he sits alone at the diner. Not that a couple needs to be in each other's pockets 24/7, and we know he was kind of hiding from her so he could look at the sonogram photo (but way to be stealthy, there, sitting in the middle of the diner where everyone in town seems to eat every meal), but the entire last arc was about her trying to fix her life so she could have him as her happy ending, and they barely had a day together (and then the six weeks they don't remember) and even almost lost him, and now he's alone for what seems to be an entire day. It doesn't seem like the "Yes! We can finally be together!" honeymoon phase should have worn off yet. Kind of like the entire arc spent desperately wanting Henry back, and as soon as that happened, she was off with her boyfriend or moping about her boyfriend and didn't even want Henry around.

[Mari]

One of the things I'm appreciating about this season so far is that (so far. I cannot stress that enough. Up to this point.) the relationship issues make sense and are relatively organic in nature.

David and Snow fought because they both wanted to help Emma and had different ideas about how to do that, and each trusted-and mistrusted-different people. That makes sense, and are reasonable things to cause tension.

Hook is struggling with Emma because she's changed so much, and is desperately afraid that she's not the person he fell in love with any more.

Emma is struggling with her parents and Regina, at least so far, because they've tried (and succeeded, at times) in controlling her and making decisions for her, and those did not turn out to be the best choices. Adding in the totally in-character event where Regina had Emma edge closer to full cursedom because it would help Regina/Robin, to the detriment of Emma's life, and you have reasonable struggles between characters.

Emma is struggling with Hook, because she trusted him to love her unconditionally, and he is backing away from her, and because she is making decisions with different information than they have, as well as the perspective skewing curse, sees herself as the same person, just more empowered. Again, a good reason for Emma to have issues in her relationship with Hook.

Robin is struggling because he's recognized that he's going to love his baby, despite how the baby started, and has realized that Regina is self-centered enough that he's unable to fully share with her about it. (Even if that's not quite how the show phrased it, it's what seems to be happening.)

It's just nice that the show seems to at least be making an effort to give everyone some respect and treat the relationships with a fraction of the complexity they deserve.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ i agree. The Arthur/Guinevere/Lancelot stuff presented in the flashbacks has been rather organic as well. And Henry/Violet have been cute too.

[Camera One]

I agree that is a definite step in the right direction, though sadly, with the exception of Emma and Hook, it is very much in the "attempt" stage.  I liked Snow and Charming having a spirited exchange, but it made no sense that Snow would needle Charming's hero complex.  Because the whole thing was still plot driven, we never got to see Charming expressing doubt in himself and we never got to see Snow expressing doubt in her conclusion either.  Meanwhile, they got the 'insert hero here' adventure instead of quality character moments with Emma like Hook has been getting for two episodes.  The Robin stuff is so bare-bones that he might as well be an extra speaking gibberish.

 

But you know what, I'm going to take what I can get.  You're right that this is more than we got in 4B and more organic than 4B and for that I'm grateful.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

The 4B relationship stuff was so abysymally bad that anything looks like an improvement I suppose.

[pezgirl7]

This was from the spoilers thread that was getting off topic. Regarding overestimating how many people actually care if CS has slept together.

I think you UNDER-estimate it. :P

I agree! There's that Tumblr blog Has CS Banged Yet? which always makes me laugh when I see a post come across my dash. There's even been recent posts from lawyers and marketing people trying to explain that CS sleeping together would be good for the show, as far as making more money, and therefore it has not happened yet. The show would more than likely advertise it or save it for sweeps, since the Neverland kiss promotion was a big deal. Here's one such post:

http://artielu.tumblr.com/post/131588659821/this-is-most-likely-a-stupid-question-considering

[YaddaYadda]

I think people are taking this way too seriously. 

 

Snowing were banging before they got married.

OQ probably did it before the God awful crypt sex.

James and Jack, the only reason that was "shown" to the extent it was, was to show how much of a dog James was.

Zelena is pregnant.

Rumbelle were doing the dirty before they got married. They waited more than 28 years, but still.

 

I don't get this we have to see it to believe it.