Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Curio]

I didn't know where to put this, but since it's mainly talking about the amount of screen time Emma and Hook have gotten in 4B, I figured this would be the best thread for it.
 
If anyone pays close enough attention to my posts, it's no surprise that these two are basically the only reason I'm watching the show right now. I've also voiced my frustration about the lack of screen time they've been given this half season, especially after the lack of emotional payoff we were served in the 4A finale. So, instead of being snarky and just saying, "Wow, if the writers spent more than 5 minutes on those two, this season might be more palatable," I decided to at least be accurate about how much screen time they've been given when I criticize the show about that.
 
I went through each episode and tried as accurately as I could to record the amount of screen time Emma and Hook have shared in 4B thus far. I decided to break it up into 3 different categories: 1. Any time they share the screen together (whether they're talking to each other or Hook is standing mute behind Emma in the library); 2. Scenes where they're together, but other people are present and it's primarily a group scene; and 3. Scenes that are essentially just Emma and Hook one-on-one. For the third category, I mention "essentially" because there are scenes like the one in "Unforgiven" where Emma and Hook have an intimate conversation with Snow and Charming lurking in the background, or the goodbye scene in "Lily" where Emma's parents and Henry are technically in the background. In both those examples, the conversation between Hook and Emma is basically one-on-one with no interruptions. (Once Snow and Charming ruin the almost-kiss in the sheriff station, it goes back to being a group scene.) However, I did not include the conversation between Hook, Emma, and Regina walking through the woods in "Sympathy for the De Vil" because that was primarily a group conversation, even though Hook did offer some meaningful advice.
________________________________

 

"Darkness on the Edge of Town" (4.12)
All Scenes = 4:19  |  Just Group Scenes = 3:02  |  One-on-One = 1:17
"Unforgiven" (4.13)
All Scenes = 4:55  |  Just Group Scenes = 1:11  |  One-on-One = 3:44
"Enter the Dragon" (4.14)
All Scenes = 1:56  |  Just Group Scenes = 1:27  |  One-on-One = 0:29
"Poor Unfortunate Soul" (4.15)
All Scenes = 6:47  |  Just Group Scenes = 5:15  |  One-on-One = 1:32
"Best Laid Plans" (4.16)
All Scenes = 4:41  |  Just Group Scenes = 3:02  |  One-on-One = 1:39
"Heart of Gold" (4.17)
All Scenes = 0:28  |  Just Group Scenes = 0:11  |  One-on-One = 0:17
"Sympathy for the De Vil" (4.18)
All Scenes = 3:42  |  Just Group Scenes = 3:42  |  One-on-One = 0:00
"Lily" (4.19)
All Scenes = 3:17  |  Just Group Scenes = 2:42  |  One-on-One = 0:35
"Mother" (4.20)
All Scenes = 3:46  |  Just Group Scenes = 2:38  |  One-on-One = 1:08
 
TOTALS
All Scenes = 33:51  |  Just Group Scenes = 23:10  |  One-on-One = 10:41
________________________________

 

In the first nine episodes of 4B, Emma and Hook have shared the screen together for a little over a half hour. Okay, that doesn't sound too bad. But, you have to also take into account that in many of those scenes, they might not be interacting with each other, they might be asleep because of a sleeping curse, they might be standing in the background watching Ursula regain her voice, or there's a Chernabog flying around and everyone is in a panic. That's why I identified the group scenes separately, to give a better look at how many scenes are actually devoted to developing the characters of Emma and Hook and their relationship. And the scenes that usually do that are the intimate one-on-one conversations, which amounts to approximately 10 minutes of screen time in the first nine episodes.
 
If we assume each episode is approximately 43 minutes long, that means the average times for each of these kinds of scenes becomes:
 
Individual Episode Length Averages
All Scenes = 3:46  |  Just Group Scenes = 2:34  |  One-on-One = 1:11
 
Percentage of Screen Time in 4B Through First Nine Episodes
All Scenes = 8.74%  |  Just Group Scenes = 5.98%  |  One-on-One = 2.76%
 
This is pretty accurate from what we've gotten so far in 4B. Usually, any YouTube scene where Emma and Hook have a conversation ends up being about a minute long. However, a couple scenes skew the one-on-one times a bit. There are two montages where Emma and Hook are just walking down the street with either with music playing in the background or Snow monologuing about secrets and egg babies. Taking that into consideration, along with the flashback scenes of Hook and Emma from the 3B finale that were played in "Heart of Gold," discounting those scenes actually brings their one-on-one time down to about 9:43. (Which then makes their conversational one-on-one episode average length to 1:05.)

_________________________________

 

Using this data, I can somewhat estimate how much I'll enjoy the finale and see how close I get to predicting how much these two characters show up together on screen this Sunday. Because the finale is two hours long, we can expect to see Hook and Emma share the screen for about 7:32. Of that time, about 5:08 of that will be group scenes, and 2:10 will actually be an important conversational one-on-one scene. I'll check back in here to see how accurate this prediction is once the episode airs.

 

(And yes, I realize how ridiculous all of this meaningless data sounds. But when I can barely talk about the actual plots and characters of 4B without resorting to crass cynicism, at least this was a somewhat positive and productive use of my time. Plus, it meant I got to re-watch all of my favorite scenes from this season again! Oh, and if anyone catches an error in my calculations, feel free to make fun of my basic math skills.)

Edited May 8, 2015 by Curio

[Souris]

That's just sad. Thank you for doing that work, Curio! Bless you. If you have nothing else to do, or the finale pisses you off so you have to go into data mode to cope, I'd be curious about Emma's time spent with her parents and Regina, for comparison.

[OnceUponAJen]

How about time with main characters (together and individually) vs time spent on guest star villains this season....or half season, even.

[Rumsy4]

That's really great info, Curio! What a shame that Emma and Hook spent so little one and one time together this half-season! But what we did get was really good. I suspect Emma's one on one time with her parents was even less, even though the egg!baby plot revolved around Snowing/Emma.

[Curio]

If you have nothing else to do, or the finale pisses you off so you have to go into data mode to cope, I'd be curious about Emma's time spent with her parents and Regina, for comparison.

 

I enjoy doing useless stats like this, and I'll probably have to cope some way or another after the finale, so I'll definitely get to those for comparison. I mean, it's going to be a looooooning summer hiatus, what else is there to do?

How about time with main characters (together and individually) vs time spent on guest star villains this season....or half season, even.

 

Yeah, I'd like to get to that, too. (Oh man, it's going to be a fun math-filled summer!)

[OnceUponAJen]

I enjoy doing useless stats like this, and I'll probably have to cope some way or another after the finale, so I'll definitely get to those for comparison. I mean, it's going to be a looooooning summer hiatus, what else is there to do?

Yeah, I'd like to get to that, too. (Oh man, it's going to be a fun math-filled summer!)

Hey....it'll get you (and us) through the hiatus :)

[Serena]

Math: more fun that Once Upon A Time season 4

[OnceUponAJen]

Maybe once you're done we can put together a pie chart and some graphs and post it as a power point presentation.

Yes, I'm joking

Edited May 7, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[Curio]

Maybe once you're done we can put together a pie chart and some graphs and post it as a power point presentation.

 

Yes to visual graphs. Hell no to PowerPoint.

[Serena]

You do the visual graphs, I'll do the PowerPoint, then we can send it to A&E!

[OnceUponAJen]

You do the visual graphs, I'll do the PowerPoint, then we can send it to A&E!

A&E and @OnceABC! Corporate types love the PowerPoint.

[Camera One]

I enjoy doing useless stats like this, and I'll probably have to cope some way or another after the finale, so I'll definitely get to those for comparison. I mean, it's going to be a looooooning summer hiatus, what else is there to do?

 

Yay.  Those stats were fascinating.  I wonder how many Emma-Snow-only scenes, and Emma-Charming-only scenes there were in 4B.  In some ways, they should count even less than the Emma-Hook scenes since the writers used most of the Emma/parents scenes for plot-related lying in 4B.  Meanwhile, it seemed like there were more Hook/Emma-only scenes than there actually were, because most of those conversations were meaningful with emotional depth.  Even Emma/Regina I think had more meaningful scenes than Emma/Snow or Emma/Charming in 4B.  "Breaking Glass" and "Lily" combined probably meant Emma/Regina surpassed Emma/Hook by quite a bit.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Camera One

[Geeni]

You should include the rest of the main characters on this chart, considering there are more than just two.

 

Though Regina would still win.

[Curio]

I'll get around to doing the other characters eventually, but that will be more labor than love. This was at least fun because I got to rewatch my favorite characters' scenes again. Doing everyone else means sitting through 4B again and rewatching a lot of bad scenes. But it'll be worth it for the sake of comparison. And because hiatus... 

[Camera One]

That sounds like torture.  I almost wanted to go smash a bunch of glass baby rattles after rewatching "Unforgiven" and "Best Laid Plans" with a friend.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Camera One

[MaiLuna]

If you want the screentime for just each individual regular character (not specific interactions), no need to do it, it's right here.

[Souris]

So glad they made Michael Socha a regular for those 20 minutes.

[Curio]

If you want the screentime for just each individual regular character (not specific interactions), no need to do it, it's right here.

 

Awesome! I can just focus on the screen time of the relationships then.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But having super-realist Emma buy into it as a great idea and devote so much attention to it and having Snow and David decide that they have to take the risk of saving the Author page because otherwise Regina can't get her happy ending just made it go off the rails because then everyone looks delusional and out of character. That's where the Mary Sue problem comes back to bite them -- other characters get sucked into the black hole and the universe warps itself around her instead of her having to abide by the same rules as everyone else and the other characters actually getting to act like themselves.

There seems to be no point in Emma joining Operation Mongoose, considering she's done squat about it. There was absolutely no reason to involve her in it, except for the facts they wanted Swan Queen BFFs and they wanted to avoid any tension between conflicting philosophies in order to put the drama elsewhere. It's lazy because it's a shortcut to bypass organic characterization. They were willing to break Emma's core DNA just to move the "friendship" forward without any effort. Instead of Emma and Regina coming together naturally, they slapped "Emma is responsible for Regina's happy ending" and "Emma is part of Operation Mongoose" on it.

 

Snow should have been the co-leader of Operation Mongoose. That plot would have actually been better for her than the eggnapping scheme. She's already obsessed about Regina's happiness, why would she stop now? It would have given her some bonding with her grandson to boot. It makes no sense for her not to be involved after her speech from the Hope Commission and her desire not to burn the Author page. Even before Ursula and Cruella got there, it's strange the mission wasn't even on her radar. Of all the people in Storybrooke, you would think she'd be the poster child. 

[Camera One]

Yeah, Operation Mongoose turned out to be a total dud.  No one really did anything active, except Regina trying to talk to Pinocchio, which was useless until Rumple magically turned him back into August, which we were told was an impossibility back in 2B but apparently not.  I don't like Regina/Snow scenes, but anything would have been better than babynapping.  Now that you mentioned it, Snow and Henry working together could have been a nice goal-oriented adventure, but on this show, they'd both be looking through magnifying glasses in the periphery of the screen.  Snow wasn't completely behind the philosophy of Mongoose either.  In "Smash the Mirror", when Regina said to Snow, "You're the hero, and I'm the villain.  Free will be damned.  It's all in the book", Snow replied, "Your stories went poorly because you made bad choices."  That was 12 episodes ago, and all of a sudden, it dawns on Regina because she had a flashback about Cora while she confronted Zelena?  Huh?  It made no sense and they had an entire half-season, heck an entire season, but the epiphany happened in 2 milliseconds.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Camera One

[mjgchick]

So much for Once Upon A Hook.

[amensisterfriend]

Can any kind soul recommend the S3-S4 episodes that contain the best Hook and Hook/Emma scenes? Thanks so much! 

[Serena]

S3: 305, 306, 307, 311, 312, 317, 320 (arguably, I thought the almost drowning was intense), 321, 322. Others have good scenes, but those are the big ones, unless I'm forgetting something.

S4: 401, 402, 403, 404, 405 is an horrible nightmare but ends with a very good CS scene, I've honestly forgotten anything after that because they blur in my mind, but I think 408 and/or 409 have a couple of good scenes?, 412 has good Hook/Belle, 413, 415, 420. Hopefully 421/422, we'll see tonight.

 

EDIT: Regina in EW's gallery of Bad TV Moms. I expect them to get flamed, but I don't care. I love it!

Edited May 10, 2015 by Serena

[kitticup]

Can any kind soul recommend the S3-S4 episodes that contain the best Hook and Hook/Emma scenes? Thanks so much!

I recommend going to YouTube, do a search on killianhook and she has every hook scene. That's where I get my Hook fix if I don't want to rewatch a whole episode.

[pezgirl7]

Can any kind soul recommend the S3-S4 episodes that contain the best Hook and Hook/Emma scenes? Thanks so much!

I DVR all the episodes and then only save the ones with good Hook scenes in them. I have almost all of season 3 saved. Good Form, The Jolly Roger, Snow Drifts and There's no Place Like Home are must see episodes from that season, if you're a Hook and CS fan. For season 4, these are the EPs I have saved: 402-405, 408, 412, 415-417, 421, and then I'm sure the season finale. 416, Poor Unfortunate Soul is the only Hook-centric ep from season 4.

[Shanna Marie]

Picking up a topic from the episode thread, I really have to wonder what Henry and Hook's current relationship really is. That's the piece that's missing from how we can see the interaction between Henry and AU Deckhand Hook, how Henry would view his sacrifice, and how Henry would have been reunited with Real World Hook (which we didn't get to see).

 

There was the Captain Cobra Campout and Hook trying to help Henry run away last season before Henry got his memories back, and then Henry sent him with the book to go talk Emma down from the ledge when she was insisting on going back to New York, but that's about the last we've seen of the two of them together. In the meantime, there was the "I'm not okay with this but I want you to be happy" conversation about Emma dating Hook, the mention of offscreen sailing lessons, and the "filthy pirate" taunt under Shattered Sight (which may or may not be something he really thinks, just without anything good to go with it).

 

I can see where Henry might be resistant to his mom's new boyfriend, no matter who he is. At the time Emma and Hook started dating, it was maybe a week since Henry's dad had died and only a few days after Henry got his memories of his dad back. Even if Emma was pretty clear on the idea that it was never going to happen between her and Neal, Henry never really got a chance to adjust to that idea before Neal was dead. Emma may be ready to move on because for her it's been more than eleven years since she and Neal were a thing, but Henry just had enough time to hope that his parents would get together and he'd have that kind of family for a change before they were all separated, memories were messed up, and then Neal was dead. So the guy Henry was okay hanging out with because he was a friend of the dad he'd never known is going to look entirely different to Henry if he's suddenly a prospective new stepfather and replacement for the dad he barely got to know and just lost. Or maybe those two little bits of dialogue don't mean that much and they actually have a great relationship that we just haven't seen.

 

The problem is, the AU adventure can be two entirely different things, depending on what relationship they actually have. If it's a strained relationship where Henry is resistant to anyone who might seem to be trying to be a replacement dad and Hook is trying perhaps a bit too hard, then it's a big deal that Henry comes to him for help, encourages him, and tells him he was a great sailing teacher, and it should be a huge turning point for the way Henry sees him when he sacrifices himself and dies so that Emma can save Henry. If it's a good relationship in which they've become friends and Hook is on his way to being a kind of surrogate dad with the added benefit of being Henry's best connection to his father, then it's a bit heartbreaking that Hook doesn't know him now and Henry has to take the lead, and it's a big "awww" moment when Henry tells him he's a great sailing teacher, then it's a huge, tragic loss for Henry to see him die because that makes it the second father/father figure for Henry to lose.

 

Then that determines how Henry should have reacted upon the return. I feel like we should have seen something of them in the aftermath, at least at the party. But it depends on which relationship it is and how it affected him. If it was a strained relationship so that the sacrifice was a big turning point, then any thanks would be a big turning point and a big "awww" moment for Hook. If it's a good relationship, then there should have been a happy, relieved reunion.

 

This is where the Regina-centrism hurts the show. We already saw Henry seeing Regina again and knowing she was alive. We didn't need to see them together again in the diner at the party when we could have been seeing how Henry was affected by the other person who died for him in the AU. And I'd think that with Emma gone/changed, the relationship between Henry and Hook may become more important next season.

[YaddaYadda]

I've always sort of thought that Henry's problem with Hook had to do with Neal and I think it was sort of confirmed when he asked the Apprentice about bringing his father back.  I've always sort of wondered what the difference was between Hook and Robin for Henry because he does seem to be a lot more accepting of Robin despite everything that happened between him and Regina.  

 

Henry looked as shocked as Emma when Hook was stabbed to death in the AU.  I guess we'll see what next season brings.  I mean Rumple and Henry were supposed to bond and that didn't happen, but I'm guessing we might see some of that next season now that Rumple is back to being pre-Dark One Rumple.

[RadioGirl27]

 

And I'd think that with Emma gone/changed, the relationship between Henry and Hook may become more important next season.

A&E don't care about this relationship, they only use it when they need to move the plot from one point to the next one (we need a excuse as to why Hook is not with Emma, Henry needs a ship to get to Emma, etc.). And it's a shame, because it has a lot of potential. But I'm pretty sure that, with Emma gone, Hook and Henry are not going to share a single scene. He is going to spend all his time with Regina and Robin, and I bet that, by the season finale, he would be already calling Robin dad.

[YaddaYadda]

He is going to spend all his time with Regina and Robin, and I bet that, by the season finale, he would be already calling Robin dad.

 

He can go ahead and do that and also use Robin as a role model because Robin is exactly who a teenage boy should be looking up to.

 

That being said, the writing on Sunday did take a couple of jabs at Henry.  Snow called him awful and Regina told Emma she should reign him in.  Emma should have stood  there and been like well I didn't raise him for the first ten years of his life, so that's all on you, Regina!

[tennisgurl]

That`s really the issue when you start with an ensemble show, and try to center it all around two people (Regina, and Emma to a lesser extent). You have all these characters still hanging around, and all this relationships that are ripe for the exploring, and they all just get ignored. 

 

Henry really hasn't had much to do until this last episode anyway. Its been ages since we had him have a real conversation with even Emma, let alone Hook? And its too bad, because if you just look at their relationship, on the fringes, its really interesting.  

[Shanna Marie]

I've always sort of thought that Henry's problem with Hook had to do with Neal and I think it was sort of confirmed when he asked the Apprentice about bringing his father back.  I've always sort of wondered what the difference was between Hook and Robin for Henry because he does seem to be a lot more accepting of Robin despite everything that happened between him and Regina.

I never even thought about Neal until this episode and the question about bringing him back, and it would explain a lot. That's another issue with their timeline craziness, where everything happens within a few days on screen but takes more than a year for us, and sometimes on the show they remember it's been days and sometimes they act like it's been months. If you really look at the timeline, it was probably maybe a week or a week and a half between Neal's death and Emma's first real date with Hook. That would seem fast to a kid who was barely getting used to the idea of having a dad before he was separated from him and then lost him. I'm sure Henry had hopes of Emma and Neal getting back together. Meanwhile, with Regina there was no "dad" on that side of the family, biological or otherwise, so he didn't care who Regina dated because any boyfriend wasn't a replacement for his father. But Hook would appear to be a dad replacement at a time when Henry was just getting used to the idea of having a dad and then lost his dad. Emma may have moved on a long time ago, but for Henry it's all really fresh.

 

Then it gets even weirder when Hook is also a link to his dad because he knew Bae/Neal when he was about Henry's age and probably knew Bae better than anyone -- including his father, since Hook spent at least a century with him. We don't know if Henry even knows that Hook was kind of his step-grandfather. There's so much potential with this relationship and they play really well off each other, so it's a shame that it took place so offscreen that I don't even know what to make of what we saw in this episode.

[Camera One]

Henry having scenes away from Regina was a breath of fresh air.  His scenes with Emma, Hook, and even by himself were much better.  I was surprised how complimentary Henry was of Hook, after that "filthy pirate" comment during the Shattered Sight spell.  Clearly, the writers have little regard for ensuring characters act in a consistent way.  From the way Henry looked at Hook in this episode, the "filthy pirate" comment was clearly a throw-away.  And then we have Henry wishing he could write his father back.  Which is a normal reaction, but if the writers cared about Henry's mindset about the death of his dad, why did they allot half a minute on it the entire Season 4?  They even had Henry using his dad's death as a pretext to get a job at Gold's shop, to help Regina get a happy ending.  I know a lot of people hate Henry and his acting isn't the best, but there is zero interest in developing relationships on this show, and Henry is a prime example of that.  He hardly talked to Emma the whole season, and his only full-on conversation with Snow/Charming was them lying to him!  

[Serena]

I thought Henry finding Emma was the most tolerable he's been since S1. Emma/Henry used to be the heart of the show and the writers moving away from it to focus on the creepy Henry/Regina dynamic was a huge loss to the show.

[KAOS Agent]

Emma's face lighting up when she saw Henry was the best thing about the finale. I hate Henry, but I do miss the Emma/Henry dynamic and this moment just proved that it's a great one. I thought it was really glaring that they never had an Emma/Henry conversation about what happened to Cruella, especially in light of Henry's overly black and white viewpoint that heroes don't kill. How did Henry feel about that and did his mother fear Henry would see her differently? Considering this was supposed to be a turning point on Emma going dark, I thought it was really sad that those two never had a conversation about it.

[Souris]

So many conversations we should have seen but didn't. Because they're boring or whatever. TS, TW.

[YaddaYadda]

It actually just dawned on me re: Hook and Henry, that Henry probably came to in the loft, upstairs, saw Hook and Snowing were okay before he took off to find his moms. When Emma hugs him, then says Hook, Henry opens his mouth to say something but she's already taken off.

[Shanna Marie]

Emma/Henry used to be the heart of the show and the writers moving away from it to focus on the creepy Henry/Regina dynamic was a huge loss to the show.

Caving to the "adoptive mothers are wonderful!" pressure didn't do Henry any favors. I can see how he wouldn't want the woman who raised him to die, and I can even see him gradually rebuilding trust once she starts turning herself around, but this is a woman who gaslit him, used him as a pawn in her games with Emma, who he knows murdered Graham, who nearly killed him while trying to poison Emma, who held the town hostage to force him to be with her. And then we know, even if he doesn't, that she planned to kill everyone in town so she could have him to herself and then wiped his memory when he turned out not to be in favor of that idea. Even if she did come get him in Neverland -- with the rest of his family -- I can't see him instantly going back to being best buds with her, especially when almost immediately after he regained his memories, she kicked him out and told him to stay away because she was upset about her boyfriend. They haven't been given any time in the show chronology to rebuild their relationship after all the stuff she did up to the end of season 2. And meanwhile they've just about dropped the relationship he had with Emma and all relationships he's had with anyone else so that he can get involved to a creepy extent in Regina's love life and devote his entire life to helping her find happiness. It's her job to help him find happiness, not the other way around.

 

I thought it was really glaring that they never had an Emma/Henry conversation about what happened to Cruella, especially in light of Henry's overly black and white viewpoint that heroes don't kill. How did Henry feel about that and did his mother fear Henry would see her differently?

That really is a glaring omission, given his "heroes don't kill people" stance. But then she saved his life. So what does he think about that?

 

On another note, with Belle declaring dismissively that she doesn't love Will because she still loves Rumple, what was the purpose of that whole thing, other than to give Will a reason to still be on the show? I guess we saw them "meet" when she found him passed out in the library, but we didn't see them actually meet, we never saw them start to interact, we never saw them become friends, we never saw them start to date, we hardly even saw them together other than from Rumple's stalker POV, and now we learn that she doesn't love him. That has to be the most nothing relationship in the history of television. Her scenes with Hook were far more interesting, and if Will was just meant to make Rumple jealous, I'd think that even a friendship with Hook would bother Rumple more than kisses with some random guy. Seeing his wife being friendly with Hook, even if they're just chatting, would have to be a triggering thing for Rumple. They could even have had him see them sitting in a booth at Granny's in a way that mirrored that scene where he found Milah sitting at a tavern table with Killian and his crew. If it was a friendship with Hook making Rumple jealous, then we don't have Will and his relationship messed with for this plot and Belle doesn't look so fickle.

[Shanna Marie]

Is it supposed to be, "Thanks for saving us all from the curse, birth mom. You can go now."

Well, he has told Regina that he wishes he'd never gone to get Emma.

 

But in the interest of positivity (because I think breaking out of the negative spiral would be good for me), I have to say that one of the things this show does best and that makes me like this show is relationships -- which is why it's particularly frustrating that they seem the least interested in that aspect of it. In no particular order but mostly chronological, here are some of the relationships I've loved:

• Season one Henry and Emma -- the true believer and the cynic, the kid desperate for affection and the woman who didn't think she had what it takes to be a mom. Negotiating exactly what their relationship would be when it doesn't fit any convenient standard mold.
• Season one Emma and Mary Margaret -- a really sweet female friendship, two lonely people finding common ground, and all the while not knowing that they're really mother and daughter.
• Season two David and Henry -- a lonely kid overjoyed to have a "dad"-like figure in his life, and the guy who skipped past being a father and suddenly finds himself being a granddad. The two of them left behind when Team Princess is gone and figuring things out together.

 

I suppose this is a big reason I resent Regina -- so many of my favorite relationships have been sacrificed to her, since Henry is basically all hers and she's Emma's primary female friendship.

 

I loved season one Bandit Snow and Charming -- even though the series started with their wedding so we knew it would be okay, it was heartbreaking watching their struggle to get together, but you could have faith that they would always find each other. A big, dramatic, adventurous romance.

 

And then there's Emma and Hook, which is on its way to being my favorite TV romance ever. They've skipped past most of the TV romance cliches -- the total opposites who bicker over petty things and hate each other until they realize they love each other, the will they/won't they routine, the first kiss and straight into bed thing. I love how they believe in each other and support each other. He's been 100 percent for her since the time on top of the beanstalk when he told her she was brilliant. They've both grown and changed from the relationship.

 

Then there are the potential relationships we've seen hinted at but that I would like to see more of:

• Hook and Bae/Neal -- I'm afraid this is a lost cause since Neal's dead, so we can't see what the two of them would have been like when they were both adults, and unless some element of Hook's time on Neverland turns out to be fodder for a fairyback I doubt we'll see more of Bae. But I still find this kind of intriguing because there's such a big gap in there. Hook clearly has strong feelings about Bae. Even now, just a mention of him or a photo makes him swallow a lump in his throat. So was Hook a surrogate father figure? A big brother? A mentor? How did they become friends after their not-so-great initial impression? It would have been fun to see them in the present, with Neal now physically older than Hook (I'm a sucker for odd age-reversed relationships). And Rumple would really hate the idea of them being close.
• Hook and Belle -- I loved their interaction at the beginning of 4B, and that got me excited for more of Team Library that we ended up not getting at all. They're so different, but they have more in common than you'd think, and they worked well together. We had all kinds of speculation that he'd play big brother to her based on a spoiler photo that turned out to be of Rumple impersonating Hook, but that would have been interesting to see play out.
• Hook and Henry -- I still feel like the piece missing from the finale was what their relationship really was going into it because that totally changes how you see their interactions. But the finale events should definitely mean there's a strengthened bond going forward.
• Hook and David -- with all the talk about the Captain Charming bromance, they haven't developed that much. David's been very one-note in his disapproval in spite of everything, so I hope the AU killing and knowing that Hook sacrificed himself for Emma and Henry will mean something.

 

My potential list is all Hook, but I think that's mostly because the poor guy is pretty much alone in the world, and the only relationship that's been developed (aside from his feud with Rumple) is Emma. He needs relationships with other characters, and the little glimpses they've given of his interactions with other characters show promise, and the set-up means there's potential.

[OnceUponAJen]

I'm wondering if the Hook-Belle friendship might get a revival in S5 since both of them are or have been in a romantic relationship with the Dark One. That's a pretty small club to be in.

[Dani-Ellie]

I'd like to add Emma and Elsa to Shanna Marie's list of awesome relationships. There was something so beautiful about watching these two women with their delayed firsts finding their first real friendship with each other. They supported each other from the jump. There was no animosity from Emma when Elsa accidentally trapped her in the ice cave because Emma understood her. She understood what it was like to have something inside her that she couldn't control. And likewise, Elsa stepping in and making Emma understand that that magic within them was what made them special and that it was something to be embraced and not feared was absolutely lovely.

 

And of course, there's my Captain Swan. I absolutely love what they've done with Captain Swan. I love the slow burn (even though in TV time, it's not that slow of a burn because it can't have been more than three or four months since the start of 3B) because I think it makes sense for both of them. These are two very guarded people, and watching the two of them get behind each other's walls has been a treat. I adore the support on both sides, and I love how much the two of them have grown from the people we met, in large part because of each other.

[YaddaYadda]

Henry used to seek Emma out for help, advice, or just to hang out. Lately that has been diminished to nothing. What? Is it supposed to be, "Thanks for saving us all from the curse, birth mom. You can go now."

 

I don't understand what happened there.  That relationship sort of started to fall apart in 3B, the second Henry remembered Regina, he was out of there and I don't get it.  Or I guess we have to think that the relationship between Emma continues off screen just like Hook teaching Henry sailing was off screen.  This show really, really sucks at developing relationships.  Relationships should be the bread and butter of any TV show.

 

And of course, there's my Captain Swan. I absolutely love what they've done with Captain Swan. I love the slow burn (even though in TV time, it's not that slow of a burn because it can't have been more than three or four months since the start of 3B) because I think it makes sense for both of them. These are two very guarded people, and watching the two of them get behind each other's walls has been a treat. I adore the support on both sides, and I love how much the two of them have grown from the people we met, in large part because of each other.

 

There's definitely been some really great progress with Captain Swan.  And they really don't treat them like the other couples.  The moments they've give them have been meaningful thus far.  How long have they known each other for?  2 years?  Nearly 3?  There was the whole missing year somewhere as well.

 

I wonder if the way they're building Captain Swan is the reason OQ is built the way it is.  Like they have one slow burn relationship and another that's firing on cylinders and being done at warp speed.  Again, missed opportunity with them during the missing year.

 

I'm waiting to see how things go with Emma being the Dark One.  

[Shanna Marie]

I don't understand what happened there.  That relationship sort of started to fall apart in 3B, the second Henry remembered Regina, he was out of there and I don't get it.

I think this is a case of them not paying attention to their own timeline and acting like it's happening in our time (years) rather than show time (weeks, with a year gap). When you look at the show chronology, there was the phase when Henry got so desperate that he went to get Emma, and the better part of a year or so, during which Regina was gaslighting him, he knew Regina murdered Graham, Regina was hurting Henry to win against Emma, Regina was trying to destroy the things Henry loved that might compete with her, and then Regina tried to put Emma under a sleeping curse so that Henry took the fall for her. After the curse broke, Regina threatened the town to force Henry to stay with her and tried to hold him back when he ran away. Then there was a lull during which she was trying to prove herself and win him back by not using magic and she got declared a hero for not killing Emma and Snow, but then she backslid and was joining in Cora's crime spree. After that, Regina had her plan to kill everyone in town so she could have Henry to herself, which required a memory wipe when he wasn't on board (that memory wipe is one of the things that bugs me about their current relationship because it makes it feel fake). Did he ever know that she was actually the one planning to use the failsafe to destroy the whole town before she was a "hero" in saving them from it? And then he was taken to Neverland and separated from everyone. Regina did come after him, but so did the rest of his family/stepfamily (if we're counting Hook as step-grandfather). Upon the return from Neverland, Henry spent most of that time under the floorboards in Gold's shop, and it was Pan who was playing happy family with Regina. Henry was barely restored before the curse was reversed, and then he spent a year thinking Emma never gave him up.

 

So when Henry's memories were restored, it was pretty much the first non-immediate crisis interaction between Henry and Regina since she was actively evil. When you look at it that way, it makes the true love's kiss more unlikely, and it makes it odd that they went straight to "here's how I'm doing in school," with no awkwardness or needing to get reacquainted. That wasn't picking up where they left off. It was skipping drastically ahead. Then immediately after that, she ditched him to hang out with Robin, and then she told him to get lost because she was too upset about losing Robin. I suppose when you look at it in that light, his Operation Mongoose obsession does make some sense if he's feeling insecure about where he really stands with her and worries that he'll get ditched or she'll turn evil if things don't work out for her, and the only way for his relationship with her to be secure is to make sure she has her happy ending. But that then makes Operation Mongoose even more creepy and unhealthy, and that doesn't seem at all the way the show was portraying things.

 

So the problem with Henry is not only that his relationship with Regina has taken away from all the interesting or potentially interesting relationships he should be having with everyone else, to the point that major things like Emma killing Cruella are ignored or that we're entirely lacking in context for things like Hook's sacrifice, but his relationship with Regina doesn't even make sense and comes across more like someone waved a magic wand to give Regina the relationship she wants with him rather than anything that would have developed naturally based on what's happened between them. I think they definitely should have a relationship because she was his only mother for the first ten years of his life and even if she had issues that bond is going to be there (though I really think he never should have got his memories back because it was supposed to require a sacrifice to reverse the curse, and supposedly that sacrifice was her losing Henry forever), but it should be a lot more complex and difficult relationship than they're showing us. Once again, in waving their magic wand to give Regina all the good things, they're actually shortchanging her and denying her what could have been a really interesting story arc.

[browneyegirl89]

I think CS is so much better developed than OQ. But my problem with CS is that Hook's actions are completely whitewash and we all need to perceive Hook as a love sick puppy for Emma.

I find it troubling in that even in Season 4, Emma still never finds out the bad things Hook got into. It is like the writers intentionally don't have Emma to know about it because it will ruin the relationship. Like Hook blackmailing Rumple and willing to harm Belle. Emma never finding out that Hook never really helped Ariel and Eric reconcile. Her determing if being with Hook is a good choice with his history of children, like how he sold Baelfire to Peter Pan and whether she wants to be in a relationship with a man like that when she has a son.

 

We don't even know if Emma even knows Hook considering we don't even know if she knew he had a brother. How can see say that she trust Hook when Hook seems to only want to present the best side of her to him? Or that is at least how the show frames it.

[pezgirl7]

I don't think Emma knows everything about Hook, but she was there when he shot Belle, and tried to kill Rumple, and left her and the princesses in Rumple's old jail cell. I think she has a pretty good idea of the horrible things he has done, but like she said, she chooses to see the best in him now, because he seems remorseful for the things he has done. We don't know how much Emma knows about the whole blackmail thing, since the show pretty much glossed over the whole blackmail/hand/heart thing. But I have a hard time believing that Hook would have physically hurt Belle at that point, and that he was just using her as leverage, since she's about all Rumple cares about. He definitely should have told everyone that Rumple still had the dagger, but he was still in the process of going from villain to hero, so it would make sense he would stumble on that journey. Also, we do know that Emma knows about Liam. Charming told Emma about him in Neverland, but Hook didn't want to talk about it to her. And then later Hook mentions him to Emma in the EF time travel adventure, and says how hard it was to lose him.

[Curio]

I think CS is so much better developed than OQ. But my problem with CS is that Hook's actions are completely whitewash and we all need to perceive Hook as a love sick puppy for Emma. I find it troubling in that even in Season 4, Emma still never finds out the bad things Hook got into. It is like the writers intentionally don't have Emma to know about it because it will ruin the relationship. Like Hook blackmailing Rumple and willing to harm Belle. Emma never finding out that Hook never really helped Ariel and Eric reconcile. Her determing if being with Hook is a good choice with his history of children, like how he sold Baelfire to Peter Pan and whether she wants to be in a relationship with a man like that when she has a son.

 

I think all the couples on this show suffer from a case of: "All-Important-Conversations-Happen-Off-Screen." I have to disagree about the show whitewashing Hook's actions, though. He's one of the few villains who still gets side-eyed by the good guys in the present day, even though he's been on a heroic path since he turned his ship around during the Season 2 finale. Emma definitely knows a lot about the bad things Hook has gotten into because she was present for a lot of his darkness. She was there firsthand when he left Team Princess in the cell in the Enchanted Forest. She had to sword fight him for the compass. She had to knock him out with a trashcan because he attempted to poison Rumple. (She locked him up in a locker because of that.) She knows he shot Belle because she witnessed the direct aftermath on the road and later chained him up to the hospital bed as punishment. So Emma definitely knows Hook is capable of doing bad things and doesn't take those actions lightly. (Edit: Or what pezgirl7 just posted above me.)

 

We don't even know if Emma even knows Hook considering we don't even know if she knew he had a brother. How can see say that she trust Hook when Hook seems to only want to present the best side of her to him? Or that is at least how the show frames it.

 

Emma actually does know Hook has a brother. She asked Hook about his brother in Neverland (after another important off screen conversation where Charming apparently told Emma all about it) and Hook opened up to Emma about Liam's death in the Season 3 finale. But yes, the show could do a much better job of actually letting all the characters acknowledge things that have happened on screen. This is why we should have seen some of the 6 weeks after Rumple was banished, because I'm fairly certain Hook and Emma opened up a lot to each other about their pasts. We know Emma knew about hatting The Apprentice based on her reaction during the Season 4 finale, so I'm assuming Hook told her about the blackmailing, too. (And she would've known about the blackmailing sooner if Rumple didn't delete the phone message.) Emma also knew that Hook did something bad to Ursula in his past, but she trusted him enough to fix the situation himself. And he did. So I don't think the show is whitewashing his past.

 

Hook's past with Bae and Emma learning about is something I hope the writers explore more, but I think the writers have filed that under "unimportant" along with Regina confessing about Graham's death or any conversation between Robin and Regina about how Regina was the one who captured and tortured Marian.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

I think that the writers sort of had a quick fix for that in "Unforgiven" when Emma asked him about Ursula and he decided to lie to her about having a past with her.  

 

Emma knows his has a past that spans centuries, so she's obviously not going to know about everything that has gone down in his life, but if she asks him a question about his past/something he has done, then she expects him to tell her the truth.

 

I know, it's overly simplistic, but the show chooses to not delve into a whole bunch of things which really sucks.  Guess we have to find what we can in what they give us.

Edited May 15, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

What would it have been like if the Snowing/Emma fight had continued through her disappearance? Would it have been more meaningful for Snow and Charming to make amends with their daughter by saving her from the darkness? That just seems very up their alley. I'm still miffed about how that arc was "resolved".

Edited May 15, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Even the finale. Henry is at the table with Regina and Robin. Regina and Robin get up to go on their moonlight walk. Why not have Henry as part of the conversation with CS and Snowing about David killing Hook.

Wasn't he there for the "is Zelena still pregnant?" conversation? That's a rather inappropriate conversation to have with Henry right there, so there's no reason for him to have been at the table then. He could have been with his other family to be part of the conversation that was actually about something he was involved in.

[orza]

I see nothing inappropriate about Henry knowing about Zelena's pregnancy and the circumstances surrounding it. Henry is not a little kid who needs to be coddled and we have already seen multiple times that he is not easily shocked. The conversation was just a brief reference and response about their situation going forward. Nothing untoward was mentioned. All these characters come from a feudal society where a boy Henry's age was considered almost a man and treated as such. They have a completely different set of values, morals and attitudes that don't have much to do with 21st century western standards. Holding them to our real-world standards doesn't make much sense..

[Shanna Marie]

Regardless of whether or not it's entirely appropriate for a mother and her lover to discuss her lover's rape baby with her half sister in front of her son, from a dramatic standpoint it makes more sense for Henry to be involved in the conversation that actually involves things that directly affected him. He has nothing to do with the Zelena plot and was just scenery for that conversation, but he was involved in the whole adventure that involved Hook sacrificing himself so Emma and Henry could escape, and he watched David kill Hook. Henry's reaction to that incident would tell us a lot about Henry and his relationships with all those people. Him being at the table for Regina and Robin's conversation told us nothing about him.

 

I did find it interesting that Emma sent Henry away before she talked to Regina about watching the man she loved die. I wonder exactly why -- she's not ready for Henry to know she loves Hook? She doesn't want Henry to know how upset she is? She doesn't want Henry to know what she's using to motivate Regina?