Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Amerilla]

I'm not sure the pregnancy bullet is dodged. They clearly did more than dance on their wedding night.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm not sure the pregnancy bullet is dodged. They clearly did more than dance on their wedding night.

 

No need to work overtime to make me forget all about my resolution for 2015 to forget about the unpleasantness and icky of 2014.  Eh!  With this show, I live on hope and fresh water.  And there's enough bad stuff without Belle being pregnant with the spawn of Satan.

 

The problem with this show is that it's always extremely difficult to have a timeline of sorts where we know how long exactly has gone by before the villain of the day has been defeated.

 

Even with this 6 week time jump we got at the end of 4A, unless Rumple finds Cruella right away (and it seems to have taken him 6 weeks to find Ursula), then the time jump will be longer than 6 weeks, no?  I'm assuming Ursula might know where Cruella is since they are all buddy-buddy in the Enchanted Forest and Maleficent should still be prisoner in Storybrooke.  

 

If Belle ends up pregnant, she probably won't tell anyone about it. 

 

January 3rd, first migraine of the year!

[ShadowFacts]

Belle being pregnant would be fertile ground (sorry) for Rumple to go to any and all lengths to get a Bae do-over.  He's going to be uber pissed at Belle for what she did to him, but then interject pregnancy and he has to back off from harming Mama Belle.  And Pan did remark inappropriately about her fertility.  So I think it's a real possibility. 

 

[Rumsy4]

There are some things a relationship cannot come back from without one character being destroyed. I would say that Rumbelle have crossed that line for me.

I agree that Rumbelle has crossed that line. His marriage proposal was founded on a lie, so that he could use her as an alibi for murder. He froze her without her knowledge on their honeymoon so he could switch the daggers back, but failed to go through with when he found the Hat. He lied to her, poofed her, put her to sleep, kept his plans secret from her, and talked about modifying her memory to keep her compliant. And all this in the first week of their marriage!

Besides, Rumple would have had to constantly be lying to her and modifying her memory if he had succeeded in his plans and left Storybrooke with Belle. She would never approve of his World Domination plans otherwise. Maybe he'd have brought Lacey back?

On the other hand, Belle herself attempted to control Rumple using what she thought was the real Dagger. So, even she crossed the line there. However, at least she apologized for it! However, I'm sure A&E will reunite them in the end. But I'm not sure Rumple will survive the series. Maybe he'll die trying to save Belle. Been there done that. His true punishment would be if he lost all his magic and deathless powers for good, and Belle still decided to not go back to him.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

If Rumpbelle ever reunited, the only satisfying way for me would be on Rumple's deathbed in the final season. I thought the relationship worked in EF when he still had a chance to get redeemed, so I don't find it as a total loss overall. But right now there's no way they can sustain for very long with his pathological trickery.

Edited January 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

He doesn't even deserve a deathbed.  If Belle is knocked up, I'll be miscarriageFF.  Also, there was a line in one of the interviews where "journalist" asked our fearless writers about upcoming pregnancies and the answer was basically, well they're doing it, so it's bound to happen.

 

Me...head explodes.

[OnceUponAJen]

Even if Belle is ignorant about the other things Rumple did in the days leading up to his banishment (putting her to sleep, plans of world domination by hat), I'm sure Hook will fill her in. Once she knows all of that, I don't see how she could go back to Rumple. But, she probably will!

Edited January 3, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[YaddaYadda]

I'm sure Belle has a bag full of stupid stashed in the back of her closet, right between the shoes and the purses.

 

For every good thing Rumple has done in that relationship (which is very little imo), he has done a dozen to negate all of that.  He did sacrifice himself at the end of 3A and whatever he did in 3B can't be held against him up to the point where he decides that Zelena will die and lies about it.  He saved the town, but then endangered it when that time portal ended up opening.  He sort of changed or sort of wanted to change until the opportunity for more power presented itself with the whole hat situation and now he will be on the quest for his happy ending, so I hope the author can kick his ass seven ways to Sunday.  Even Neal coming back from the dead and telling his papa how disappointed he is in him and how he let magic take over his life and corrupt him further than it already had.  

 

I just hope (against all hope, because this show...) that they don't pin everything Rumple has done in 4A on what Zelena did to him with the whole dagger business, because Rumple was after the hat way back when.  

 

I hope Belle gets to keep her spine.  Out of all the women on this show, she is the weakest and that needs to change.  True love, schmoolove, the writers can stick it.  Rumple is way passed redemption and change, not after he tried to put Emma in the hat and mentioned the whole suicide by hat (do it to herself).

 

Asshat!

Edited January 3, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

From the Dark Hollow episode thread:

So, I understand that it's all fairy tale handwaving at this point anyway, but I still find it a little gross that Hook had this great love affair with Bae's mom (Rumple's wife), and now Hook likes Emma, who is Bae's ex...a little strange to be fighting a guy for a girl, when the guy previously had an affair with your mom...

Yeah, but most of the relationships on this show are pretty icky if you think about them too hard. Belle has a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome, Regina flirted with David in Season 1  when she knew he was technically her step-daughter's husband, and the whole Robin/Regina relationship is just... it is what it is.  

 

I give Hook a little bit of slack only because he fell for Milah and Emma before he knew they had any relationship ties with Bae. When Milah ran off with him, he had no idea who her son or husband were, but fate oddly happened to bring Bae into Hook's life years later in Neverland. And the first time Hook met Emma and started falling for her in Season 2, all he knew about her was that she was some blonde gal wearing funny-looking modern clothes who needed to get back to her son in another realm. Again, he didn't know about any ties to Bae. It gets a little weird once Hook realizes Henry is the son of Emma and Neal, but by the time Emma tells him that bit of information, Hook's crush on her had already been established. There's also the strange mental whiplash of having an image of young Bae in Hook's head, and then being presented with this completely different guy in the present--both in looks and personality. I think that was enough for Hook to say "screw this I'm still going to go for Emma."

 

As for Neal's perspective on the whole thing, that's one of the areas of character development the writers just completely wasted. Instead of letting Neal get into an argument with Hook about how he's taken both his mom and now the mother of his son away from him, we were given pointless flashbacks about Zelena and childish fights over lighters. Poor Neal, he could have been a really interesting character if the writers cared about him. But they didn't.

[Shanna Marie]

In the real world, without time-halting curses or realms where time doesn't move, it might be moderately icky for a man to have a relationship with his former lover's son's ex, but that's mostly due to the age difference (since his lover's son's ex would likely be close to being young enough to be his daughter unless both his lover and the son's ex were of the cougar persuasion) and proximity (if they met due to the other relationships). I don't think it really applies here, since it's been 200 or so years since Hook was with Milah and more than 30 years since he was around Bae at all. Since Hook last saw Bae, Bae grew up and turned into Neal and aged while Hook didn't really, so Neal appeared to actually be older than Hook, and they were more like peers. It's been more than 11 years since Emma was with Bae/Neal. Emma never knew Milah, and Bae/Neal hadn't seen Milah since he was a kid. Given all that, I would say that any pre-existing relationships could be considered to have reset.

 

Really, though, isn't it a little icky to consider that Emma might have been marked as a possession due to her relationship with any man in a way that limits her future relationship options? Why would her relationship with one man put her off-limits to any other man who isn't a blood relation and whom she met when she was a consenting adult? It would be maybe wrong and weird if she'd met Hook while dating Neal when Neal introduced her to his stepfather, and then she and Hook hooked up or if she'd known Milah and had seen Milah as a mother-like figure. But they met entirely independently of Bae and Milah and those relationships weren't a factor in their meeting or in their relationship developing, so why should she be off-limits because of her prior relationship? She's not Neal's property and wasn't marked as his territory, and she's not being passed from man to man but rather making her own choices about who she wants to be with.

[regularlyleaded]

Instead of letting Neal get into an argument with Hook about how he's taken both his mom and now the mother of his son away from him

Milah left Rumple (and by extension Bae) for Hook. But IMO she was so hard up to leave Rumple and that life in general that chances are she would've found someone else to help take her away if not Hook. Hook didn't kidnap Milah so Nealfire should take any issues concerning that affair to his mother (though he couldn't because she's dead). And Nealfire left Emma (in prison!!!!) 11 years before she met Hook, so Hook didn't take anything away from Nealfire.

 

Basically Nealfire has no room to bitch to Hook or Emma about Emma and Hook's relationship. It's none of his GD business. That Nealfire had the nerve to hound Emma for a lunch date after abandoning her in prison (and leaving her, an underage teenager, pregnant!), and mere days after his fiance (that he supposedly loved ever so much) kicked him to the curb, and after Emma told him she wished he were dead (let me translate for you Nealfire: Go the eff AWAY!) makes him total douchebag material.

 

Dying was the best thing Nealfire ever did. Good riddance.

Edited January 5, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[YaddaYadda]

and after Emma told him she wished he were dead

 

I'll never stop fighting for you, Emma.

 

Worst line ever out of his mouth after he also decided that she was jealous of Tamara and her bullshit detector was a joke.  Oh poor Neal, as Felix said, he might've grown up, but he grew up stupid.

[Rumsy4]

Even in his dying moments, Neal seemed a bit presumptuous to me. His whole giving Emma permission to move on - find her Tallahassee - would have been sweet if they had been together. But again if my ex told me as he was dying that he hoped I'd move on, I'd probably laugh at him for being a dork.

 

Lbr, that was fanservice. As was the dumb line of them being true loves from Belle (of all deluded people). By the end of S2, he at least apologized to Emma "for everything". But by the end, he came around to claiming that he had no choice but to send her to jail. They didn't bother to have Neal back in 3B until his death episode. They never built up to that moment where Neal and Emma were able to interact reasonably. The burden for that fell on the missing year. Before that, Emma was never allowed to come straight out and tell Neal that they were never ever getting back together. He took the Echo Cave speech as some kind of challenge. She didn't show up for the date, but she let Charming convince her to go. It seemed as though Emma couldn't let him go until the very end, even if it was all too painful for her. I am really disappointed at the way it was resolved.

[Camera One]

They didn't bother to have Neal back in 3B until his death episode.

 

That alone tells you how disinterested the writers were in writing for him.  Even in 3A he was shuffled off elsewhere for most of it.  And his last alone-scene with Henry was with the Pan imposter.

[YaddaYadda]

Even in his dying moments, Neal seemed a bit presumptuous to me. His whole giving Emma permission to move on - find her Tallahassee - would have been sweet if they had been together.

 

I always thought he actually knew what her choice was had there been no Pan curse.  I don't know, maybe I was just reading too much into it, but she doesn't wanna go on that "date" with him, so David seeks her out, they talk about the moments, then the everything hits the fan, the curse comes and her words to him are "well I'm sorry you have to go back there, I'm sorry about your dad" and that's the end of that and 15 seconds later, she's encouraging Hook to think of her.  It's not like the writing wasn't on the wall for him.

 

I always thought that line from Belle about the swan necklace following Neal to the EF was because it was all about true love was such a bunch of hogwash because it made no sense.  Emma told him she wore the necklace to remind herself to never trust anyone, she told him she wished he had died, she kissed another man, she encouraged another man to think of her as he had promised.

 

I feel bad dredging up all of this because Neal died, but I honestly thought he knew what the score was and even more when he was in the hospital bed seeing the exchange of looks between Emma and Hook before Hook walked out and let them talk about whatever.  Suddenly, it wasn't about him being with Emma and Henry, it became about Henry.

[Faemonic]

 most of the relationships on this show are pretty icky if you think about them too hard. Belle has a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome, Regina flirted with David in Season 1  when she knew he was technically her step-daughter's husband, and the whole Robin/Regina relationship is just... it is what it is. 

Regina and Leopold. What. What was that. WHAT. WAS. THAT.

 

Hook/Milah/Nealfire/Emma, I can get past the Incest By Association aspect because they're all adults within an acceptable bell curve of reasoning, nobody's resorted to trickery or strongarming, except between Hook and Rumple. So that would be weird (like what would that ship name even be? Rumpirate? Golden Hook?)

 

Oh, and as Shanna Marie pointed out, they didn't meet through each other. (Cora, what were you thinking? Were you even thinking??)

Edited January 6, 2015 by Faemonic

[Amerilla]

I always thought that line from Belle about the swan necklace following Neal to the EF was because it was all about true love was such a bunch of hogwash because it made no sense.

 

I wouldn't tag that #Swanfire in Tumblr. :-) If I remember correctly, if it was meant as fanservice, it failed spectacularly.

 

To me, it was clearly Kalinda V's ham-fisted attempt to give Neal a motivation big enough to justify the completely idiotic way they chose to have him rush headlong into Zelena's trap, and to evoke 'Tallahassee' in the World's Slowest Death Scene. That's really all it was.

 

And since Belle was the only one around, it fell to her to say the line. It's not like it would have made more sense coming from anyone else. 

 

 

(like what would that ship name even be? Rumpirate? Golden Hook?)

 

Golden Hook is, in fact, a ship.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Amerilla

[Serena]

Golden Hook is, in fact, a ship.

But Crocohook is so much catchier!

[Mari]

He should have known the score. The majority of the audience knew the score, but he reminded me of my dad watching football at that point. The Belle comment about true love drove me up the wall. I mean seriously how long had she known either Neal or Emma (for that matter)?

 

That has been something that bothered me immensely. Here is a character who somewhat like Emma grew up without parents being thrust back into a situation with his father and stepmother (she was just a girlfriend then but whatever). That was an interaction that should have been happening. It has taken us to half way through season 4 to get Henry wondering what to call Belle - Grandma or Belle.

 

Essentially Neal was a stranger to Belle other than stories she may have heard from Rumple. ANd even those would have been limited to his childhood because Bae was already through the portal when she came into Rumple's life. She'd been around him for maybe a week (dealing with Cora and then after the group returned from Neverland). There must have been some deep and serious conversations walking through the EF after the Pan thing happened because there was never a sign that they even recognized each other previously. When Rumple sacrifices himself by stabbing his father, Belle is in hysterics on the ground. Nobody went to the chick. Neal would have been an obvious choice, but he's standing there with a WTH kind of expression. 

 

So to have her declare who she thought Neal's true love was or how she felt it should work with Emma was stupid.

I remember thinking--and probably saying on the boards--"Shut up, Belle."  But looking back, I think it actually makes sense to have Belle say that. Neal needed a push and motivation to try and get back to Henry and Emma--believing that Emma was his true love would provide that motivation to make desperate moves he ordinarily wouldn't.

 

Having Belle be the person who recognizes their True Love makes sense, considering the show was going Hook/Emma. 

 

Belle's better at theory than at reality.  On paper, by fairytale convention, Neal and Emma could make sense.  Young lovers, separated by fate, reunited, and then separated again.  Having quested together to save their child . . .  Is there more to it?  Yes.  Had Neal done some pretty reprehensible things to Emma?  Yes, but Belle wouldn't know all that.

 

Plus, well, Belle's not exactly a fount of wise ideas and decisions when it comes to love;  take a look at her relationship with Rumple.  Having Belle say that Neal and Emma were true loves--especially in hindsight, given the recent Belle/Rumple relationship implosion--undermines the sentiment, because you can't believe Belle's judgment about these things--and at the same time highlights that Belle truly doesn't understand what's okay in a loving relationship and foreshadows what will happen to hers.

 

 (Cora, what were you thinking? Were you even thinking??)

Um . . ."Power.  Power.  Plus, I don't think I slept with him.  Power."

 

I've always wondered what made Leopold think it was okay. 

[Faemonic]

I think the Dark Hollow thread revival reminded me of

based on this analysis of what Hook and Nealfire say to Emma about Emma. I wonder if there's been an update, because it seems like an informed attribute that Hook is selfish and vain and I see that but what he actually says is usually deflecting any attention from himself.

 

Um . . ."Power.  Power.  Plus, I don't think I slept with him.  Power."

 

I've always wondered what made Leopold think it was okay. 

 

"That's probably not my daughter"?
 

Edited January 6, 2015 by Faemonic

[YaddaYadda]

Having Belle be the person who recognizes their True Love makes sense, considering the show was going Hook/Emma.

 

Belle should be the very last person to ever talk about love, true love or anything remotely close to it.  While I understand why they did it that way, they could have also just gone the way of Neal really wants to get back to his son, you know the one he was pissed he didn't know existed, the one he wanted to do right by unlike his own father, be there for....the whole thing just felt unnecessary.

 

Nothing screams true love like going on a date on your own and then having the one you want turn around like an hour later before a curse and tell your rival that she's okay with you thinking of her while repressing all kinds of emotions (not saying that all those emotions had to do with him though).

 

Oh Neal!  You had so much potential once upon a time!

[Shanna Marie]

The issues with Hook being with Milah and Emma are more of an issue related to his age (centuries old) than going for whatever Neal/Bae had in his life.

But does the Neverland time really count for his age to make him 200-something to her 30 or so? The very point of Neverland is not growing up, so the time spent there doesn't add any kind of wisdom or maturity that would create an age difference. If anything, it creates a regression. Twentysomething Neal seemed less mature than 14-15-year-old Bae, and post-Neverland, pre-curse Hook was hardly the picture of wisdom coming with great age.

 

Neal/Emma was creepy because their ages crossed that child/adult line -- she was a vulnerable, homeless teenager and he was an adult who was already a career criminal. If he'd only been out of Neverland for a couple of years and they were both homeless teens making their way in the world on their own, I don't think it would have been an issue even if Neverland made him a couple of hundred years older than his physical age. Or if someone else had been Henry's father and the first time Emma met Neal was when they tracked him down in Manhattan, that wouldn't have been a creepy age difference. Hook and Emma are essentially peers, age-wise. He's more like a time traveler than like someone who's lived a really long life, and oddly enough, the fact that they're from different worlds minimizes the effect of him being from a different time, since they already don't have any cultural references in common, so they aren't going to run into any of these "Kanye is going to make this Paul McCartney guy famous!" generational difference issues.

 

I do think the age difference between Rumple and Belle is on the creepy side, since he did live all those years in a place where time really passed and he wasn't stuck in a state of arrested development (other than the one he inflicted on himself, but that has nothing to do with the environment where he was). Physically, he seems old enough to be her father, and then you add another couple of hundred years of life experience to it, plus all his power, and you get a major imbalance that doesn't seem healthy.

 

As for the Dreaded Triangle, while I'm not generally a fan of romantic triangles, I kind of wish that if they were going to go there, they'd actually really gone there instead of setting it up and then not paying it off (like so many things on this show). Why even set it up if all that was going to amount to was one squabble over a candle? What was the point of Hook making the noble gesture of taking himself out of the picture for Henry's sake if he didn't have the chance to really be out of the picture? Why bother with any of it if Emma wasn't actually going to get to choose because Neal was going to be eliminated? I wouldn't have wanted to have the kind of never-ending triangle with Emma bouncing back and forth between the two men that's so common on TV, but it might have been interesting for her to be in an ongoing situation where both men were present and she actually had the chance to consider and compare them, with things getting more complicated by the pre-existing relationship between Neal and Hook, especially if they'd bothered to develop and define that. Hook definitely felt loyalty to Neal, and he still gets choked up by the mention of him, but we don't know how Neal felt about Hook, other than that he trusted him to be the one to reach Emma.

 

If they weren't going to go there, and the triangle only existed in Hook's mind because he felt like Henry's father should have a chance and that put him out of the running, then they didn't need to do the petty squabbling. I guess it was like so much on this show, where they did the setup and then got distracted by something else and never bothered actually doing anything with it.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Physically, he seems old enough to be her father, and then you add another couple of hundred years of life experience to it, plus all his power, and you get a major imbalance that doesn't seem healthy.

The age difference wouldn't bother me if it weren't so glaring. Rumple hired a pretty young girl to be his slave, when in reality he wanted a girlfriend/companion. He locked her up in his mansion and pretty much mistreated her without excuse. It does seem like an older man taking advantage of a sheltered young woman. Honestly without the Beauty and the Beast backdrop, not even Skin Deep is very romantic.

Edited January 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

So upon re-watch of some of the episodes and especially the finale of season 3.  Emma and her grandmother's ring (her mother's ring).  I know the ring is very specific to Snow and David, but I started wondering if Emma having that ring on her for a bit didn't mean something more given what Ruth told David when she passed it down to him (true love follows this ring wherever it goes explanation she gave him).  Emma has her parents ring (true love) and is on this grand adventure with Hook at the same time...

 

Any thoughts on that?

[OnceUponAJen]

Do I think Hook and Emma are intended to be true loves? Probably. I mean....they have kiss music. :D. I doubt seriously that either one of them will die; Emma's had enough bad luck in that area.

[Souris]

There is a fun screencap where Emma is on the ground holding up the ring toward Hook, where it looks like she is proposing.

 

But I doubt the show really intended the symbolism.

[Shanna Marie]

I ran across this quote in an entirely unrelated article that I found rather appropriate to this show:

"Soul mate" isn't a pre-existing condition. It's an earned title. They're made over time.

Which is why I don't think I'll be able to buy Regina and Robin as any kind of great love until we see them having a conversation about something other than how great the sex is or how destined for each other they are and until we see them actually doing something for each other that's not about making it possible for them to be together. Soul mates should be about growing together, not about pixie dust. And if they wanted to show that there was this pre-existing, fated connected, then the connection should have been obvious even before Regina saw the tattoo. They shouldn't have spent a year in the Enchanted Forest with her belittling him and him snarking back. If they're so fated for each other, they should have been drawn together even then, so that the tattoo revelation would have been a case of "oh, of course, that makes sense" rather than a signal to start a relationship.

 

Or, even better, do like so many other couples and show them together, getting to know each other, finding things they have in common, overcoming obstacles and otherwise doing stuff. Rumple and Belle are insanely mismatched and she was delusional, but I could still see how they came together and what they saw in each other (even if what they saw was unhealthy).

[YaddaYadda]

I still don't understand why the writers didn't have Regina and Robin fall in love during the missing year, then bring them back to SB and have them be very attracted to each other.  It would have made more sense for one thing and the whole Robin choosing Regina over Marian might've made more sense then a week long relationship where they're sleeping together right after she discovers the tattoo.

[OnceUponAJen]

Soul mate is so new age-y. I wish they'd just stick with true love. That is more of what I would expect to hear in relation to a fairy tale.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I still don't understand why the writers didn't have Regina and Robin fall in love during the missing year, then bring them back to SB and have them be very attracted to each other.  It would have made more sense for one thing and the whole Robin choosing Regina over Marian might've made more sense then a week long relationship where they're sleeping together right after she discovers the tattoo.

It would have drawn a much, much better parallel to Mary Margaret/David/Kathryn too. David and MM wasn't as ew-worthy because we already knew they were actually True Loves back in EF. But since Outlaw Queen was just budding, and since Regina and Robin are just in it for the taco making, it's all kinds of gross.

 

 

Soul mate is so new age-y. I wish they'd just stick with true love. That is more of what I would expect to hear in relation to a fairy tale.

It's another example of A&E failing at worldbuilding. They were asked exactly what soulmates were and couldn't give a straight answer. Even they don't know what it means.

Edited January 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[buildmeupbuttercup]

Right now this board has five threads with active conversations (either last night or today) regarding the deterioration of the Snow/Emma relationship—and now I’ve thrown a sixth into the mix. Sorry!

 

I refuse to believe this board has the only viewers who are this livid about the way this has been handled. I remember before season 2, all the press and interviews with A&E were asking about Emma’s relationship with her parents and we were promised it would be explored. Even before 2B, when asked if Emma would bond with her father like she had with her mother, we were promised “it’s coming”. So here we are two years later and while they have actually had nice David/Emma scenes that show how their relationship is progressing, they have decimated all progress Snow/Emma had made in two seasons. And for what? If there was an organic reason and an actual storyline, while it would be frustrating, it would at least be leading to something. This is intentionally creating a mess with no intention of cleaning it up.

 

I get that for whatever reason they think Queens of Darkness (new characters), Rumple, and Regina all seeking out the Author (new character) or previous one arc villains (new characters) are more fun to write for than the established Snow/Emma relationship, but why keep ruining it in such vile ways if you have no intention of writing the resolution?

 

From the Dark Hollow thread:

Which, might I add, flies in the face of, "It's the truth. You were an orphan. It's my job to change that." So ... "I want another baby" and "I would happily build a treehouse and spend the rest of my days dodging poisoned arrows and Lost Boys as long as I had you (Charming) by my side" ... this is how you're going to change that, Snow? Really?? (I was going to throw snarky quotes in there but I used the real ones for emphasis.)
Because that also flies in the face of "Get used to [someone putting you first]" and "We go home together. That is the only way. Do you understand?" Three broken promises from mother to daughter. Broken promises are probably par for the course for Emma but at the same time, that's exactly the kind of stuff that would make her pull away.

Season’s 2’s Team Princess arc did a fantastic job solidifying Snow’s determination that she lost Emma once and wasn’t going to let it happen again. She wasn’t going back to Storybrooke in 2A or back to the Enchanted Forest in 2B without her daughter. 2A MamaSnow made Emma’s walls slowly come down again, after going back up in 201 with her insta-parents. You actually have to try really hard to write material that erases that! How much time (days? weeks?) is supposed to have passed between Snow refusing to leave Emma (multiple times!) and not even considering her when choosing Charming and Neverland? What did Emma do to her??? Admit she was an orphan? That’s what gets me—there was no blowup fight between Snow and Emma which would organically lead Snow to say “You know what? That’s it! I’m done. This isn’t what I wanted.” Then during the missing year she doesn't seem phased never seeing her daughter again. The only issue I had with the 3B finale (besides Snowing being clueless and naming their baby after their daughter’s ex) was the bullshit plotline that Emma’s walls caused the dissonance with her parents. Nope that’s not a “resolution”. AT ALL. It’s a lazy, easy copout and a “100x100=ummm…400? cuz we don’t really feel like doing the math” solution.

 

...the writers officially wrote off all the problems with Emma and Snow in episode 4x08. LBR, y'all, the writers, in 4x08, crapped out a "resolution" to all their relationship problems with a cheesy and cheap throwaway line "Please don't change" and a hug that fulfills the family feels quota.

This year they once again have these “Snow acts horribly to Emma” scenes and we know how that paid off. They have written such heartwarming scenes between these two in the past, but I think so much damage has been done that they can’t redeem this relationship in many viewers eyes.

If it gets us, the viewers, this upset I can only imagine how Ginny and JMo must feel.

[Geeni]

 

They were asked exactly what soulmates were and couldn't give a straight answer. Even they don't know what it means.

 

Especially since "soul mate" could also pertain to more than just romantic relationships. I wish they would focus on the platonic definition for once.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Geeni

[Dani-Ellie]

So here we are two years later and while they have actually had nice David/Emma scenes that show how their relationship is progressing, they have decimated all progress Snow/Emma had made in two seasons. And for what? If there was an organic reason and an actual storyline, while it would be frustrating, it would at least be leading to something. This is intentionally creating a mess with no intention of cleaning it up.

 

 

This is, admittedly, my big problem. If this were all leading somewhere, I would be all for it. If I had any faith that there would be any kind of parent/adult child blowout over it, I would be thrilled to pieces. Because yes, please, give me the angst. I love the angst. Let's see the two of them have it out.

 

But it's not leading to that. It's never going to lead to that. Because the two guys in charging of the writing of the show see no reason why a hug-and-make-up shouldn't fix what the story has wrought. And I'm wondering, what the hell is the point? If you don't care about the relationship between these two characters, why -- pardon my language -- fuck with them at all? Why not just do with Emma and Snow what they've done with Emma and David? Or, since the problems are plot points more than anything, why not split the new-parent-insensitivity between David and Snow so that Snow's not always the one sticking her foot in her mouth? Not that I really want to see Emma having a seemingly strained relationship with both her parents but it wouldn't be so bad on Snow/Emma if it wasn't always Snow stepping in it with Emma/David looking pretty damn easygoing and strain-free. There would be an indication that both David and Snow are struggling to come to terms with "our baby girl is an adult now" instead of David rolling with the punches and Snow digging her heels in all, "We missed everything and I can't possibly figure out what to do because we missed everything!"

 

Resolution on this show sucks hardcore ass ( ... I'm apparently very swear-y tonight), but because there's no real onscreen resolution, the more they throw at Snow/Emma, the bigger the hole gets. I don't think they have the slightest grasp how deep they've dug this thing, and you're right, there is no way out of it without some work. But even something as simple as Emma and Snow having an easy-going conversation could make a world of difference. Let the two women talk, for Christ's sake. Show us some light moments between them. Or hell, if you don't want to waste precious screentime on what some fans consider one of the central relationships of the show, have them returning back to the apartment from a day out together. Just give us some indication that these two people spend time together that's not just because they live in the same apartment.

 

But really, I should know better than to question this stuff. These are also the same people who wrote and filmed a scene with Snow going to Regina for mayor advice in an episode when Snow's daughter is freezing to death. And if there was any written or filmed reaction from Snow whatsoever to coming home to find her daughter half-frozen to death, they left it on the cutting room floor. Like, WTF, show? This is Family Relationships 101. A mother should be present in the story where her child is in mortal freakin' danger.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Curio]

Snow seemed to like the whole daughter going on a date thing - have her help Emma pick out something to wear.

 

When those episode photos first came out with Emma wearing the pink dress, everyone started speculating about whether it was Emma who picked the dress out for herself or if Snow gave it to her from her closet (since it has a very Snow-esque look to it). Ends up we'll never know (in canon) because the writers don't care about small character scenes like Emma going shopping for a dress for her first date or Snow pulling Emma aside to tell her how excited she is for the date and offering Emma her dress in a motherly way. Instead, Emma's like hey how do I look? and Snow and Charming are like wow! and then Hook's like oh btw I have a new hand and Emma's like okay let's go... aaaaaand end scene.

 

Why did the writers feel the need to rush an important scene like that? Why couldn't we have had a conversation between Snow and David on the couch before Emma came back inside where they debated how they felt the evening might have went? We could have gotten some insight into how Snow actually feels about Hook, because most of her giddiness that episode just seemed to be because she was happy Emma was going on a date in general, not because it was with Hook. David could have filled her in on how desperate Hook was to save her during the ice wall incident, but how he still has reservations about them dating. They could have had a conversation about how they imagined Emma's first courting experience would have been much more regal, with a line of princes and suitors standing in the grand hall nervously awaiting the princess. Why can't we get inside the characters' heads more, writers?!

Edited January 8, 2015 by Curio

[Faemonic]

When those episode photos first came out with Emma wearing the pink dress, everyone started speculating about whether it was Emma who picked the dress out for herself or if Snow gave it to her from her closet (since it has a very Snow-esque look to it). Ends up we'll never know (in canon) because the writers don't care

What a shame we'll never know in-show! JMo said something about Emma picking it out herself because Hook brings out the soft sentimentalist in her that she can only show through clothing. I prefer my headcanon, which is that for all the "I've really got to get my own place" Emma dressed up so that her parents could see her off on the first date that they could be there for.

 

(There was also some objection from the Hook haters' side that Emma was changing herself to be more prissy for him, which I consider baffling because since when was prissy ever Hook's type...hi, Milah...and Hook changed himself waaay more drastically and permanently than Emma did for that one date. The man got a limb re-attached by his sworn nemesis. That's weird. Nice jacket, though. Needs a motorbike to go with it.)

Edited January 8, 2015 by Faemonic

[Dani-Ellie]

There was also some objection from the Hook haters' side that Emma was changing herself to be more prissy for him, which I consider baffling because since when was prissy ever Hook's type...hi, Milah...and Hook changed himself waaay more drastically and permanently than Emma did for that one date.

 

I remember that, like heaven forbid Emma want to look nice and feel pretty on a first date that actually matters to her. (Because I remember people bringing up the dress she wore in the pilot for her "date" with Bail-Jumper Ryan as Emma-date-wear, and it's like, if y'all can't understand that her "date" with Ryan wasn't a real date as far as she was concerned because she was on a job, then I can't help you.)

 

 

 

They could have had a conversation about how they imagined Emma's first courting experience would have been much more regal, with a line of princes and suitors standing in the grand hall nervously awaiting the princess. Why can't we get inside the characters' heads more, writers?!

 

This is the kind of stuff that would be amazing. And this is the kind of stuff that they'd have time for if they didn't feel the need to blow through every single plot at lightning speed. Because as important as plot it, the human drama is just as important. It's the relationships among the characters that give the plot weight.

 

Because look, I hate to keep harping on Emma/Snow, but this is exactly the problem that happens when the relationships aren't given their due. We have a mother who's allowed no reaction to her daughter almost dying. That's not okay. It's not realistic. It took me right out of the scene because I did not believe for one second that Snow wouldn't have said anything to Emma. But that's what we're shown, and it irritates the crap out of me because then I have to go imagine/write my own version of something we should have seen in the first place.

 

It's ridiculous how much we have to imagine, and it's so frustrating because this show could be so. damn. good if it would just balance things better.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Mari]

I remember that, like heaven forbid Emma want to look nice and feel pretty on a first date that actually matters to her. (Because I remember people bringing up the dress she wore in the pilot for her "date" with Bail-Jumper Ryan as Emma-date-wear, and it's like, if y'all can't understand that her "date" with Ryan wasn't a real date as far as she was concerned because she was on a job, then I can't help you.)

I always figured that red dress was a good choice for the bounty hunter date because it made for good bait while at the same time not giving him much to grab onto if it had gotten physical. Why wouldn't she wear something else on a date where she didn't have to worry about her date attacking?

[Shanna Marie]

Unfortunately, I don't expect any issues in the relationship between Emma and Snow to be addressed because I don't think the writers realize that there are issues. I don't think they're intentionally writing it as though there's a problem. They just apparently aren't interested in this relationship, so they don't write it, and they don't realize that not writing it means it doesn't go on screen, and the complete absence of something implies the presence of something else. And they're so interested in plot that they don't bother showing anything that isn't directly relevant to the plot.

 

So they didn't intend to show that Snow and David didn't miss Emma during the missing year. They just didn't think to write about it because they were more interested in Regina wailing about missing Henry (for the two episodes in which she did before that, too, was forgotten), and they didn't consider that not showing anything at all was actually a rather strong statement, that we needed at least a hint for us to be able to assume it was taking place in Offscreenville. I mean, there's just as much evidence that David took up juggling during the missing year as there is that Snow and David felt their daughter's absence. Am I supposed to assume, based on no textual clues whatsoever, that David spent that year juggling?

 

And they didn't intend to show that Snow didn't care that her daughter nearly froze to death. It just wasn't important to the plot, since the plot point in that scene was the vow to find Elsa's sister, so they didn't bother writing any other stuff and didn't consider how it would come across. If you asked them why Snow didn't care, they'd probably think you were nuts because of course Snow cares about her daughter.

 

I don't know whether it's a case of them thinking so much about their characters and their lives that they know all this emotional stuff and forget that it's not on the show or whether they only see the characters as puppets to act out the plot, so they have no lives in their heads outside what is needed to carry out the current plot point.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Unfortunately, I don't expect any issues in the relationship between Emma and Snow to be addressed because I don't think the writers realize that there are issues.

I'm not sure if this is the case simply because the Snow Queen brought them up clear as day and the writers knew this would drive Emma nuts enough to go into berserk mode. Of course that was about the broader issue of both parents, but I think it pertains mostly to Snow. Charming is the only one who has legitimately tried to get to know Emma as a person as opposed to the Savior.

 

In my personal opinion I think it's more of lack of interest on the writers' part. They simply don't want to look into it because they don't know how to write it. They don't know how to put Mother Snow and Mary Margaret together without screwing it up.

Edited January 8, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

In my personal opinion I think it's more of lack of interest on the writers' part. They simply don't want to look into it because they don't know how to write it. They don't know how to put Mother Snow and Mary Margaret together without screwing it up.

And the more they leave undefined and unstated, the more wiggle room they have later when they have a new "plan". (Yes I used quotation marks. If there was ever a time when it was deserved it is for that word and these writers.) They don't have to retcon anything or figure out how to fit it in, because they never showed it to us. So, for example, since we know so little about the missing year, they can later claim that enemy X was made during that year, or Red got married and random new guy is her cursed husband , or Belle had a secret baby that she hid or was taken from her.

Combine their lazy world building and relationship horror with a convenient memory rock or potion, and Boom!, season 5a appears.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Mari

[Amerilla]

I remember that, like heaven forbid Emma want to look nice and feel pretty on a first date that actually matters to her.

 

I just think some of us wondered why Wardrobe decided that Hook or any of their interactions over the last two season would inspire Emma to dress like a she was in a high school production of Grease.

 

I can certainly understand why shippers liked it, but outside the shipping wars, the whole set-up of fairy-tale princess/teenage daughter in pink going on first date with not-bad Bad Boy as Mommy and Daddy snap pictures was cringe-inducing simply because the story hasn't done anything to really support it. Which goes back to the global problems with the show as a whole, not just Captain Swan. You have to earn that level of cheesiness.

 

Why can't we get inside the characters' heads more, writers?!

 

Because they don't bother to put anything in there.

[The Cake is a Pie]

I didn't like the pink dress, but not because of anything having to do with Hook or their relationship. It just didn't look like anything Emma would own or choose to wear. It looked like something from Snow's closet. The color, length, the weird 50s cone boobs, it just all looked wrong for her. And then Elsa asking if that was just the corset made no sense, because that was probably the most demure thing we've ever seen Emma wear, plus Elsa's own gown was way tighter and more revealing than Emma's.

 

I almost expected her to give the Charmings a taste of rebellious teenager experience and zip out of the dress in the hallway into a slinky black mini. I definitely expected a reveal that she had gone through Snow's closet, but that didn't happen, because that would have made sense and indicated that she and Snow spent any time together. I can't gripe too much, though, because the little glimpse we did see of the family before and after the date was adorable and appropriate. More of that, please.

 

I get that wardrobe maybe wanted to give a visual contrast to normally hard-edged Emma wanting to feel soft and pretty on a date, but there are a million choices between tight bailbondsperson bait dress and that baby pink thing. 

[scenicbyway]

I think it's fine to want more Emma and Snow interaction but I think the reason we haven't seen any really since the Pan plot is due to Ginny's pregnancy.  In an interview last month she said she's just now at the point where she feels like she can go to work and leave the kid with it's grandparents.  Ginny's embraced the whole newlywed, pregnancy, birth and baby stuff full force and her work has taken a backseat.  Surely, her wishes were taken into account for the last year.  Both Ginny, Josh and Adam and Eddy have said they knew a baby project was in the works for some time and so it's fair to say they were planning to back burner Snowing.  Honestly, Ginny could've taken off most of 4a with maternity leave but she didn't, it's to be expected that she'd have reduced time though.

 

I do think they addressed Charming's feelings about Emma in the lost year, we saw with Rapunzel that he had all kinds of regrets about giving up Emma both times.

 

As for Emma's date dress.  It was out of character, but it was also out of character for Hook to change his clothes.  The fact that they both did so at the same time is supposed to further cement how right they are for each other.  Hook makes Emma feel girly and feminine (I didn't think the coloring of the dress did her any favors but I digress).  Hook wanted to show Emma that he could be modern and acclimate to her world with his new clothes.  He wants to be a better man for her that's why he wanted his hand back too.

[Dani-Ellie]

I think it's fine to want more Emma and Snow interaction but I think the reason we haven't seen any really since the Pan plot is due to Ginny's pregnancy.

Oh, absolutely, but there's still the question of why they chose to use the time they had with her the way they did. Honestly, in 4x02, why have Snow get dragged out of the apartment a week after giving birth? Why not have her stuck at home with little Neal and worried about what was going on with Emma, freaking out because her daughter is trapped somewhere and she can't go help? It wouldn't have had to be any more screen time for Snow than she ended up having, and Ginny wouldn't have had to leave the set for the loft if they'd just left Snow there and made her part of the story rather than giving her a completely separate one.

 

There are other questionable choices. Like, the "That's because you forgot about us" scene. Why? Why have Snow say that rather than try to suss out why Emma felt New York was home? Or maybe have Snow put it gently to her that sometimes home isn't a place and let her think on that.

 

I'm really not asking for much. I'm just asking for something.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[YaddaYadda]

I think that`s the reason I think they might decide to address all of the Emma/Snow issues in one fell swoop (eventually).  They have got to be writing this whole relationship this way for a reason.  It has been on very shaky ground since Season 3 and they keep piling stuff on on top of everything.  Snow goes to Regina, talks to Regina, tries to help Regina...Emma?  It's the polar vortex on that front.

 

I wish Emma would just stop calling Snow "mom".  It might be harsh, but she hasn't earned it.

[Shanna Marie]

Honestly, in 4x02, why have Snow get dragged out of the apartment a week after giving birth?

Less than that. Zelena was defeated and imprisoned the day Snow gave birth. That night, Rumple killed Zelena, triggering the time portal (if there was a time jump, they didn't make it clear, since Regina and Rumple appeared to be wearing the same clothes as earlier in the day when they visited Zelena). The next day, they were having the celebration at Granny's when they noticed the time portal (how they didn't notice it on the way to Granny's is an unanswered question). Elsa arrived that night and the next day blocked off the town. That night was the power failure. So Snow gave birth on day one, day two was the party, then the evening of day 3 she was being dragged out of the house to deal with the power outage (and that also means that Regina got Henry back with the breaking of the spell on day one, then on day 3 was telling him to stay away because her boyfriend's wife came back and she was moping).

 

I'm not sure if this is the case simply because the Snow Queen brought them up clear as day and the writers knew this would drive Emma nuts enough to go into berserk mode.

If it was deliberate, then they did it wrong. Emma didn't even seem to notice that Snow didn't seem to care about her nearly freezing to death. There was no "Seriously?" expression, no, "Oh, by the way, I'm okay." Nobody reported that Emma was fine. It was treated as a non-issue. I really don't think it even occurred to the writers that Snow would need to react in that scene. The emotional upset only came later when they needed to trigger the boiling bottle, and then it was an issue that had never come up before. We'd had no hint whatsoever that Emma was feeling at all bad about Snowflake getting what she didn't. There could have been a connection between the two events, but the connection was never made.

 

As for the date clothes, I think the drastic change was just meant as shorthand for "this date means something different from the previous dates we've seen Emma on." But hasn't her wardrobe kind of followed that path since then? She's still been casual Emma, but there was that lacy white sweater that seemed different from her usual clothes. I'd have to go back and check, but there did seem to be a subtle shift toward slightly softer and more feminine even while sticking with her standard jeans, boots, sweater wardrobe.

 

I was more bothered by Hook's need for a hand coming out of the blue and not really being addressed. That was a major change he made for her sake, and it involved him dealing with his worst enemy. Wouldn't she have questioned that? Might she have wondered why he felt the need to do that? She'd made some remarks about the hook or about him only having one hand. In her shoes, I would have been inwardly wincing and wondering if he thought I might be unsure about the whole hand thing, if that might have been something he thought was holding me back. Yeah, two hands are generally better than one, and if he could get it back, then it's totally understandable that he would, but I think if I were her I'd be wondering why now. We really should have seen more build-up to that, with the hook proving cumbersome as things become more intimate, like he couldn't hold hands with her while holding a coffee cup as they took a moonlight stroll, or he couldn't easily get his jacket off to put around her shoulders. The hook is an asset in a violent life full of fighting, but when it comes to relationships, it would make things difficult.

[Curio]

I was more bothered by Hook's need for a hand coming out of the blue and not really being addressed. That was a major change he made for her sake, and it involved him dealing with his worst enemy. Wouldn't she have questioned that? Might she have wondered why he felt the need to do that? [...] We really should have seen more build-up to that, with the hook proving cumbersome as things become more intimate, like he couldn't hold hands with her while holding a coffee cup as they took a moonlight stroll, or he couldn't easily get his jacket off to put around her shoulders.

 

All of this. Looking back at how much Hook and Emma's scenes together dropped off after that date episode, and the nonexistent payoff with the heart storyline, I honestly don't understand why we didn't get to see more of the date. Here you have the main character going on her first real* date in...what...years?...with arguably the leading guy of the show. Any other TV show would have spent more than 5 minutes showing the date and learning about the characters and their relationship. Any other show would have shown Emma asking Hook about his new hand, his hesitation to tell her the truth about his insecurities, a freaking conversation at the dinner table, just something to visually show us the date went well. As a viewer, it was like whiplash watching Will crash the date in one scene to Hook walking Emma back to the loft and her saying, "well, not bad" in the next scene. What made it not bad, Emma? 

 

That's just awful story telling and even worse relationship/character development. It's like if I had to watch Character A walk out the door saying, "Alright, I'll be back later tonight! I have to go fight off some alien vampire bunnies!" And then they come back after the commercial break and they're all covered in blood, their clothes are torn, Character A wipes some sweat off their forehead while still wielding their sword, and says, "Whew! That was rough! Those buggers just wouldn't die. Well, I'm going to bed now." It's like... don't the writers realize we want to see what happens to the characters on screen? (Gah, I'll stop myself now. If I rant any more it'll have to go into the writers thread.)

 

*Edit: Not counting anything with Walsh during those 8 months.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

Any other show would have shown Emma asking Hook about his new hand, his hesitation to tell her the truth about his insecurities, a freaking conversation at the dinner table, just something to visually show us the date went well.

<sarcasm>There was kissing. What more do you want? They couldn't show 40 minutes of smooching.</sarcasm>

[The Cake is a Pie]

Yeah, the hand thing bothered me, too. She didn't even notice it until the Charmings made whuuuuhhh? noises. Like, way to be observant, Sheriff.

 

But I've come to realize that the date itself wasn't even for Emma and Hook. It was to set up the stupid blackmail plot with Rumple and to give Will Scarlett something to do. 

[buildmeupbuttercup]

All of this. Looking back at how much Hook and Emma's scenes together dropped off after that date episode, and the nonexistent payoff with the heart storyline, I honestly don't understand why we didn't get to see more of the date. Here you have the main character going on her first real* date in...what...years?...with arguably the leading guy of the show. Any other TV show would have spent more than 5 minutes showing the date and learning about the characters and their relationship. Any other show would have shown Emma asking Hook about his new hand, his hesitation to tell her the truth about his insecurities, a freaking conversation at the dinner table, just something to visually show us the date went well. As a viewer, it was like whiplash watching Will crash the date in one scene to Hook walking Emma back to the loft and her saying, "well, not bad" in the next scene. What made it not bad, Emma? 

 

That's just awful story telling and even worse relationship/character development. It's like if I had to watch Character A walk out the door saying, "Alright, I'll be back later tonight! I have to go fight off some alien vampire bunnies!" And then they come back after the commercial break and they're all covered in blood, their clothes are torn, Character A wipes some sweat off their forehead while still wielding their sword, and says, "Whew! That was rough! Those buggers just wouldn't die. Well, I'm going to bed now." It's like... don't the writers realize we want to see what happens to the characters on screen? (Gah, I'll stop myself now. If I rant any more it'll have to go into the writers thread.)

 

*Edit: Not counting anything with Walsh during those 8 months.

All of this! I'm sorry but when Captain freaking Hook is holding a rose in his newly restored hand and apparently got it back from his mortal enemy--trip to Neverland aside there's no evidence that these two don't still despise each other--and all the writers can think of for Emma to say is what will she call him now "captain hand"??? You've got to be kidding me. He still had the hook that morning when she asked him out, but he has it back for their date...coincidence? Any chance you want to inquire about this? At the end of the episode, the hook is back--got any questions other than the obvious "what happened to your hand"? I guess we should've seen the unsatisfactory heart resolution coming when this is how they handled--it bears repeating and emphasis--Hook getting his freaking hand back!

 

For all the articles hyping this as the "date episode", the entire date was over before the midpoint of the episode. (Conversely, Rumple/Anna flashbacks spanned the whole episode if I recall.) Yes the pre- and post-date scenes were cute but what about the actual date? Hook knows how to "plan an evening out" by what...making a reservation at an Italian restaurant Emma's never been to even though she lived in Storybrooke for how long? He gets shaken after the hand thing with Will, does he recover from that? What did he say or do that made Emma actually forget about Storybrooke's crisis de jour? What did they talk about? Did they go anywhere else afterward? (Snow asks so it's not like the writers don't think its a legitimate question, they just didn't want to waste time showing it.)

 

Hook has taken Henry sailing how many times now? A sail at night would be super romantic! Let me tell ya if I'm Emma and the captain doesn't take me sailing, like he does with my son, I'm calling him out on that! I don't even need to see them actually sailing--no need to blow the budget. Show Killian tying up a boat and them walking back on the docks holding hands, talking about whatever, when Emma gets cold and he gives her his jacket. BOOM! That simple. A two minute scene that doesn't make the flow between "Killian is upset about his hand" and "Emma had the best.date.EVAH!" seem so jarring. That underdeveloped date is almost as unsatisfying as the heart resolution when you lay out all the missed conversations and character moments. Once again the writing has characters reacting to the plot (Hook needs to interact with Rumple again to set up the blackmail turned heart storyline) instead of general character moments ("hmmm Emma and Killian keep kissing in these episodes maybe they should actually grab dinner somewhere before kissing again").