Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Mari]

Okay, I seem to remember most people (except really diehard CS fans) claiming until... at least up to 307, that Neal and Emma was clearly endgame. Do you guys think the triangle was A&E clever-est misdirect ever? EVERYONE thought they were going for Neal and Emma. Even though, frankly, they mostly showed Neal being a dick to Emma. Were they trying to fake us out? Was this a clever social commentary on the audience's expectation for the bio parents to end up together, even when the story was going another way, and we can only see what they were going for now, since we know CS is endgame?

Maybe it was  a case of triangleitis.  A lot of shows get mileage from the Love Triangle--heavens, unfortunately, it's about 5/8ths of the plot on the Vampire Diaries, for example.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if the original intention was a long-term triangle between Neal/Emma/Hook, with her ending up eventually with whoever they decided on as the series was winding down.

 

I just think they completely underestimated how much people would dislike and resent the way Neal had abandoned and then treated Emma after they were reunited.  I know there were some die-hard Emma/Neal shippers, but I think there was a fairly loud outcry about how much a lot of us hated Neal with Emma, and then they couldn't figure out what to do with him long-term, because they couldn't involve him with Rumple until the last season, when Rumple will likely become the second best hero ever (since Regina is clearly meant to be the first.).

 

(Speaking as someone who doesn't really mind Captain Swan, but absolutely hated Emma/Neal.)

[FabulousTater]

Okay, I seem to remember most people (except really diehard CS fans) claiming until... at least up to 307, that Neal and Emma was clearly endgame. Do you guys think the triangle was A&E clever-est misdirect ever? EVERYONE thought they were going for Neal and Emma. Even though, frankly, they mostly showed Neal being a dick to Emma. Were they trying to fake us out? Was this a clever social commentary on the audience's expectation for the bio parents to end up together, even when the story was going another way, and we can only see what they were going for now, since we know CS is endgame?

 

I don't know about everyone else, but I thought the writers would force Emma with Nealfire because it was the worst thing I could think they could do to Emma, and the writers, if anything, always go with "How can we dick over Emma?" Hence, I assumed that they were going to write them as endgame, despite how foul and disgusting I thought it was. The whole notion made my stomach turn. Douchefire was a total asshole to Emma. He stabbed her in the back and left her to rot, but instead of having the balls to own up to it, he left her to rot like the shit he is (living up to his namesake), and when she finally confronts him years later he goes on a blame-shifting tangent, is totally condescending, and is just awful towards her (And, oh, he has the nerve to tell her how much he loves and needs his fiancé so he brings her to town. Ugh...what a shit bag...). So naturally, I thought the writers would have Emma end up with that skeevy box of hair (because they hate Emma). 

 

Basically, after season 2, I just assume that anything that I think would be a horrible, no good idea, and if they (the writers) can whitewash any of the terrible things someone did to Emma, the writers will do that.

 

I'm glad I was wrong about Emma ending up with that asshat. Whether it was because it was not well received by the audience, or they had planned all along for him to die, or because they changed their minds somewhere in the middle of drafting season 3 and decided to kill him, I don't care. I'm totally glad the writers killed him and the only silver lining for me in the history of this show is that Emma won't end up with that douchebag. 

 

(And on the other side of that silver lining, I will never, never, never, never, EVER forgive them for naming Emma's brother after Douchefire. I still want to slap A&E in the face, kick'em in the nuts and then run... I have strong vengeful feelings about this, I know.)

 

(Speaking as someone who doesn't really mind Captain Swan, but absolutely hated Emma/Neal.)

Ya, I like Emma and Hook well enough, but really, it's just that I hate the idea Emma and Neal with the burning fire of a million suns. Had they put them together that would've made me quit the show right there and then.

Edited December 17, 2014 by FabulousTater

[retrograde]

I think it was probably that plus the fact they didn't have much they could do with Neal once they got back to Storybrooke -- other than have him be part of the love triangle. I mean he could have bickered with Gold a little and helped with the crime fighting, but other than that, I don't know if they really had any plans for the character.

[The Cake is a Pie]

After Emma basically admitted that she wished he were dead, I don't think there was any real possibility they would end up together, despite Charming and Snow's meddling.

[Emma]

FabulousTater, can I co-sign your post please?

[HoodlumSheep]

i felt like the Captain Swanfire triangle was pretty nonexistent. It pretty much lasted an episode (+ a few scenes). To me it seemed obvious that Emma had moved on from Neal before season 3 even started. She had loved him once, and would probably always kinda love him in that "he was her first love" sort of way, but she seemed like she was over him (but of course everyone believed she was just jealous).

And this was before I jumped on the shipping bandwagon for this show. That's just my opinion anyways.

[Curio]

Okay, I seem to remember most people (except really diehard CS fans) claiming until... at least up to 307, that Neal and Emma was clearly endgame. Do you guys think the triangle was A&E clever-est misdirect ever? EVERYONE thought they were going for Neal and Emma. Even though, frankly, they mostly showed Neal being a dick to Emma. Were they trying to fake us out? Was this a clever social commentary on the audience's expectation for the bio parents to end up together, even when the story was going another way, and we can only see what they were going for now, since we know CS is endgame?

 

I was convinced they were doing Emma/Neal as endgame by the end of 2B, but only because it reminded me a lot of the Jack/Kate/Sawyer triangle from Adam & Eddy's Lost days. (Not so much because of the characterization, but chemistry. Your mileage may vary, etc.) I wasn't a huge shipper when I watched Lost, but just from an observational standpoint, I thought there was this intense chemistry between the characters of Kate and Sawyer that I never saw matched with Kate and Jack. I gave up on Lost about 3 seasons in, so it surprised me when I found out Jack/Kate were endgame. Based on that, I just figured Emma would end up with the guy she had less chemistry with because - hey, it's the same writers. But I'm definitely glad I was proven wrong.

[FabulousTater]

After Emma basically admitted that she wished he were dead, I don't think there was any real possibility they would end up together, despite Charming and Snow's meddling.

But it's these writers. It's this show.

 

Just look at what they've done to Snow White, for pity's sake. Somehow in the writers' twisted brains, Snow, as a naive 10 yr telling a secret deserved everything Regina did to her, to her family, and to an entire world. I mean, that's the story they are selling us -- Evil tyrant, Regina, that massacred villagers, enslaved people, sent children to their slaughter, deserves a happy ending (with the husband of the woman she murdered!) even though she has no regrets for her crimes and in fact has never fessed up to the murder of Graham. But all that doesn't matter because Woegina's just misguided. See, that's how the "math" works in these writers' twisted little heads. 10 yr old tells a secret = Massacring villagers and enslaving an entire civilization. 

 

So them writing Emma ending up with the douchebag even though she wished he was dead would not have surprised me. In these writers messed up minds, wishing someone dead is probably some sort of weird declaration of undying love. Seriously, I would not put anything pat these writers. 

[YaddaYadda]

Gosh, there was no triangle or duo.  I was done with Neal after Tallahassee (and the parallels were so obvious in that episode where Hook even though he was a villain was the better guy.  I don't know how you achieve something like this, but they managed!) and even more done with him when she caught him NYC.  When she told him she loved him as he fell through the portal, my only reaction was "why Emma, why?"  There was no going back after she told him he wished he were dead because it would be less painful than having to deal with all the crap he put her through.

 

I thought Neal was such a hypocrite, decided to fight for Emma after he found out Tamara was a liar who was basically using him.  Who the hell wants that?  Emma had enough issues with her self-worth already without adding that to her plate.

[Dani-Ellie]

But it's these writers. It's this show.

 

Yeah, that was my thing. For me, the so-called triangle was such a non-starter that it wasn't even funny. Neal had not treated Emma's heart well when he had it before, and I saw no reason for her to trust him with it again. And I fully admit that I did not want that for her. I did not want her Happily Ever After to be built on a betrayal of trust that left her emotionally scarred for over a decade. But I was petrified Neal/Emma was going to be endgame because it was the biggest Do Not Want I think I've ever had, and when I saw how the writers were pretty much flummoxed by all the Neal dislike out there, I was all, " ... No. They wouldn't really try to sell me this as an epic love story ... would they?"

Edited December 17, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[BoPeeps]

(Eye crinkling laughter reading your post, Fabulous Tater!!)

 

Having been around TV, fandoms, fiction writing and The Internet since way before a *ship* was anything but, well, a vehicle for navigating on water, I never for a single solitary moment thought that the character Neal Cassidy was anything but a blundering, roadblock *what a fucking mistake she made* dunce when it came to Emma. Not a judicious student of today's Twitter/Tumblr editions of romantic TV couplings, it was still crystal clear that from the moment Hook and Emma had their first beanstalk climb that THAT potent chemistry was headed for classic status if they allowed the luscious, leather clad pirate to hang around. Hang around, he did. (though I could totally appreciate a bit more scruff, disheveled hair and upturned leather collar again!)

 

Would it bust my soul if they didn't actually connect? No. I still quite adore Hook and Emma separately and a fair amount of UST has always tickled my TV fancy. (Muldar and Scully...where have you gone???) They have allowed us some genuinely precious (in the non-snarky sense of the word) and soulful moments of depth, smolder and angst to breathe in with a hopeful romantic sigh, trembling or otherwise, with Hook and Emma. They ARE what they were intended to be. Made for each other. Even with total emotional screw-ups like the mid season finale! (had to get that in)

 

But the character Neal was a total...box of hair (I STILL adore that line). The habitual and hate-everyone-else lengths of outraged denial over his demise and Emma's rejection of him as anything but a first love betrayal moment (with Henry repercussions) that I see in some smaller fan circles is sometimes beyond comprehension and must MUST spring from some deeply personal needs/issues/baggage of Neal-like past boyfriends from the otherwise quite sane people who adhere like crazy-glue to the Neal/Emma endgame delusions.

 

Disliking Hook (anyone's prerogative) doesn't prove Neal was anything but a dullard.

 

His passing well served the plot lines of more deeply entrenched character development of the more permanent characters.

Edited December 17, 2014 by BoPeeps

[Dianthus]

I shipped Mulder & Scully back in the day! Talk about your slow burn. The 2nd-chance-at-love scenario is fairly prevalent in popular culture, and I'm not necessarily against it, but I didn't really feel anything for SwanFire then any more than OQ now. I know they couldn't fully develop the triangle due to Colin's accident. Still, the chemistry between Colin/Jen - Hook/Emma just blew SwanFire out of the water (I see what I did there).

It put me very much in mind of the Angel/Buffy/Spike triangle. Angel was Buffy's first love and it went badly for her, leaving her scarred emotionally and physically. Spike was the dangerously sexy guy she tried to resist.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Dianthus

[The Cake is a Pie]

 

But it's these writers. It's this show.

 

VERY TRUE.

 

I was only an on-off viewer except the Neverland arc, then went back and binge-watched the whole thing after this season started. So I didn't have the dammit WHY, writers! perspective yet.

Edited December 17, 2014 by The Cake is a Pie

[Dianthus]

Perversely, I can't help but wonder if, since Emma isn't the main focus of 4B, we might actually see more of the small/quiet moments we want for CS? It might also be part of the twist from 4A slopping over into 4B. Having survived what seemed like certain doom, Hook lets his guard down (Emma, too)and then WHAM! 

They appear to be spending a good amount of time together in the spoiler pix so far. IIRC, JMo said something about Emma being more powerful in the 2nd half of the season. That may play a role in her saving him from whatever.

Sorry, spoiler-phobes.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Dianthus

[Shanna Marie]

But it's these writers. It's this show.

We should get t-shirts or buttons saying this.

[buildmeupbuttercup]

I just think they completely underestimated how much people would dislike and resent the way Neal had abandoned and then treated Emma after they were reunited.  I know there were some die-hard Emma/Neal shippers, but I think there was a fairly loud outcry about how much a lot of us hated Neal with Emma, and then they couldn't figure out what to do with him long-term

Once again I think this was a case of them not understanding what they were showing onscreen. They seemed surprised with all the Douchefire hate yet the parallels between him and Hook were evident in Tallahassee. They have always been written as polar opposites in the way they treated Emma:

 

1. Douchfire NEVER making an attempt to find or even contact her after receiving the postcard in Broken vs. Hook jumping realms, trading his ship, and tracking Emma down in NYC to get her home to save her family
2. Douchfire's "if I had known who you were I never would've gone near you" vs. Hook's "I'd go to the end of the world for her. Or time."
3. Douchfire mocked her superpower (not that its exactly reliable most of the time) and was passive aggressive about her pursuing her magic vs. Hook telling her to use her superpower on him in the restaurant in 312 and always believing in her magic.
4. Douchfire's "I'll never stop fighting for you" when Emma says her feelings for him will never change (about wishing he was dead!) vs. Hook's "whatever we become is just as much up to her" line.

 

There are probably tons more but those were just the first ones I thought of offhand. The biggest thing for me was I cannot think of one good or nice thing the asshole ever did for Emma, because "giving" her a stolen car and money (that Pinocchio stole) while she was in jail for his crimes doesn't count! If Swanfire was ever their intention then it was the worst setup in the history of ever.

 

(And on the other side of that silver lining, I will never, never, never, never, EVER forgive them for naming Emma's brother after Douchefire. I still want to slap A&E in the face, kick'em in the nuts and then run... I have strong vengeful feelings about this, I know.)

I think I actually hate this more than when they call Woegina a hero! I could write an entire essay about him not even being close to a "hero who saved us all" but more than that its the biggest slap in the face to their own daughter. I hate that there has never been a convo between Emma and Snowing about Douchfire and what he did to her, but even without that, Snow knows how Emma felt about him because Emma told her as MM in Season 1 that Henry's bio dad was a giant asshole. What part of that = naming our first born son in his honor?? If you notice Emma has never said her brother's name. Why would that be? Maybe its just a coincidence but I noticed right away in 409 that she says "Elsa can you hold my brother." This whole name thing was singlehandedly one of the dumbest decisions in the history of this show-and that's saying something. The only silver lining is that I like to fanwank that its the shows way of saying Douchfire is actually dead dead and will stay that way. 

[Curio]

Perversely, I can't help but wonder if, since Emma isn't the main focus of 4B, we might actually see more of the small/quiet moments we want for CS?

Ironically, my favorite CS moment this season came from my least favorite episode and an episode that was pretty light on Emma and Hook: The scene where Hook looks at Emma's childhood box. Barely any words were spoken between the two of them, but the chemistry was still so electric, even though there wasn't much going on beyond eye looks and facial expressions. And then finishing that scene up with the two watching the TV and Hook putting his arm around Emma and she can finally close her eyes after a long day of doing savior stuff and it's... just... ugh. So good.

 

See, that's the kind of scene we were looking for in the finale, Adam & Eddy! Not 40 minutes of making out.

[YaddaYadda]

I thought that scene was great just because it was very intimate.  That episode was a complete train wreck, but that scene at the end was really good.  And I liked the lead up to it.  Him finding her glasses and the big wide smile was really just all kinds of sweet.  

 

Also, I still laugh at the Netflix scene because it's such a goofy type moment.

[BoPeeps]

 This whole name thing was singlehandedly one of the dumbest decisions in the history of this show-and that's saying something. . 

 

Totally. If ANYTHING was the ultimate angry-fan pander, this was the moment.  It completely robbed the infant of his own identity. And as far as I can tell, the Neal fans hate it as well, but for St. Neal reasons.

 

"Tallahassee" to this old peep was a classic comparison of the two men. The rascally humanity of Hook even with all his villain-like baggage, was far more appealing than the jerky betrayal of a doofus first infatuation betrayal gone horribly ugly.  THAT was the intriguing comparison, even before all the ships set sail. It showed where and why Emma's deep distrust was born and where (and to whom) it could possible take her when those trust walls developed a healthy crack.

 

Regarding the happy endings/relationships~ abusively-whacko Neal/Emma was cut from the same cloth as the skeevy-whacko of Robin/Regina. The disconnect from decency in the representation of these two types of dead-wrong pairings seems to escape the writers totally.  Yet they can create moments of subtle and poignant interactions that are quite thoughtful and heartfelt. Those are what can save the show and are often just little gems that shine.

 

It is never a blanket condemnation of the actors, by the way. They can only say what they are scripted. There are some highly talented actors practicing their magical craft.

 

Not everyone is going to get a happy ending romantically or there would be nothing to tell and no drama. Endings, even happy ones signify ENDINGS in fairy tales and TV shows! So it will always be a challenge to keep the interest flowing. BUT, they can take solidly happy couples and give them crazy adventures to take on together that can still be wicked fun and quite addictive.

[The Cake is a Pie]

Ironically, my favorite CS moment this season came from my least favorite episode and an episode that was pretty light on Emma and Hook: The scene where Hook looks at Emma's childhood box. Barely any words were spoken between the two of them, but the chemistry was still so electric, even though there wasn't much going on beyond eye looks and facial expressions. And then finishing that scene up with the two watching the TV and Hook putting his arm around Emma and she can finally close her eyes after a long day of doing savior stuff and it's... just... ugh. So good.

 

See, that's the kind of scene we were looking for in the finale, Adam & Eddy! Not 40 minutes of making out.

 

THIS...

 

I thought that scene was great just because it was very intimate.  That episode was a complete train wreck, but that scene at the end was really good.  And I liked the lead up to it.  Him finding her glasses and the big wide smile was really just all kinds of sweet.  

 

Also, I still laugh at the Netflix scene because it's such a goofy type moment.

 

... and THIS, so hard.

 

They could have even mirrored that moment, and had Emma put Hook's heart back in while alone at the sheriff station, he puts his arm around her, they lean their heads together and she just sighs in relief. Simple, quiet, intimate. Even without any kissing.

[YaddaYadda]

402, after she comes out of the ice cave and basically straight into his arms and he asks her if she's okay.  That also ranks up there for me.  They go from being sarcastic with each other about dates and ice buckets to that.  CS had some very nice moments this first half.  I think that might be one of the reasons I felt short changed with the finale.

[ABitOFluff]

THIS...

 

 

... and THIS, so hard.

 

They could have even mirrored that moment, and had Emma put Hook's heart back in while alone at the sheriff station, he puts his arm around her, they lean their heads together and she just sighs in relief. Simple, quiet, intimate. Even without any kissing.

Yes! "I don't know what that is, but sure!" They would have gained a thousand points in the writing department if Hook had just added something like, "What about that Netflix thing you mentioned?"

 

I don't want to sound like I'm apologizing for the writers, but they gave us some pretty good CS moments. But their follow-through is for crap. 

 

And to just echo what everyone else has been saying, NO I DON'T NEED 40 MINUTES OF KISSING!

Edited December 18, 2014 by ABitOFluff

[Shanna Marie]

The "White Out" relationship writing is exactly what I was hoping for here, but role-reversed, and it would have made a nice bookend for the arc. We had Hook knowing Emma was in danger, getting frantic, and taking active steps, working with David, to find a way to help her. Even though it was Elsa who ultimately saved her, that couldn't have happened if David hadn't had Hook as backup to figure out who Elsa's sister was, and even if Hook wasn't able to do much, he kept trying, clawing at the ice with his hook. Then there was the huge embrace when she fell into his arms and they clung to each other as if for comfort and security, he picked her up to carry her away, then stuck by her side, comforting her, fussing over her and not letting her out of his sight. Notice, not one big liplock, but there was lots of good relationship stuff there.

 

I was hoping for that kind of thing when it was his turn -- that she'd realize he was in danger, have time to worry about him (that we'd see), that she'd move heaven and earth to try to save him, participate (or at least try) somehow in the saving even if she didn't get to be the one who totally saved the day, then we'd see them reunite like it actually meant something to both of them that they'd come so close to losing each other, and she wouldn't want to let him out of her sight for a while.

 

Instead, we don't even know that she knew he was in danger before she got to the clock tower, we don't know how she felt about seeing his heart nearly crushed, we got one kiss and then she ran off to see how Regina was doing. We also didn't even see whether David knew Hook was in danger and how he felt about seeing what his daughter was going through in knowing about the danger.

 

I'm sure the Brothers Dimm thought we should just know how much Emma cared (hey, we gave you a kiss), but going by what they showed onscreen, checking on Regina after her married boyfriend ended up back with his wife was more important to Emma than the fact that her boyfriend had nearly died. I know they were also setting up the Operation Dumbass plot, but did Emma actually have to be there when Henry revealed all the blank books? That was the important part. Emma could have found out later.

 

This is all actually losing me sleep. Last night I found myself rewriting the way the scene should have gone. I may have to actually type it out to get it out of my head and move on.

[Dianthus]

Ironically, my favorite CS moment this season came from my least favorite episode and an episode that was pretty light on Emma and Hook: The scene where Hook looks at Emma's childhood box. Barely any words were spoken between the two of them, but the chemistry was still so electric, even though there wasn't much going on beyond eye looks and facial expressions. And then finishing that scene up with the two watching the TV and Hook putting his arm around Emma and she can finally close her eyes after a long day of doing savior stuff and it's... just... ugh. So good.

 

See, that's the kind of scene we were looking for in the finale, Adam & Eddy! Not 40 minutes of making out.

That's the very scene I had in mind. Everything came together there (the writing, the acting and the directing) for a quiet but still involving bit of TV.

[RadioGirl27]

Ironically, my favorite CS moment this season came from my least favorite episode and an episode that was pretty light on Emma and Hook: The scene where Hook looks at Emma's childhood box. Barely any words were spoken between the two of them, but the chemistry was still so electric, even though there wasn't much going on beyond eye looks and facial expressions. And then finishing that scene up with the two watching the TV and Hook putting his arm around Emma and she can finally close her eyes after a long day of doing savior stuff and it's... just... ugh. So good.

 

See, that's the kind of scene we were looking for in the finale, Adam & Eddy! Not 40 minutes of making out.

Yeah, this is, by far, my favourite moment of this half season and one of my favourite moments of Emma and Hook together. It was great, sweet, meaningful and really well acted. I was just hoping for a scene like this in the finale. Not a TLK, not an ILY, not a 40 minutes make out session. Just a scene that showed the care and love this two characters (supposedly) have for each other.

 

[The rest of episode five, on the other hand, is a disgusting combination of queer-baiting, fan-pandering and victim-blaiming.]

[Souris]

I would "like" Shanna Marie and RadioGirl27's posts 137 times if I could. The Brothers Dimm indeed. It's really shameful how badly they handled things on the CS front in the finale and how easily and quickly it could have been improved 1,000% by somebody with a modicum of talent at emotional resonance and telling a story. It wouldn't have taken much at all, just the teeniest bit of effort and willingness to make it make emotional sense. I see other shows handle much more taxing plots, relationships and emotions miles better. It's not rocket science.

 

God, I wish I could script-doctor this show!

Edited December 18, 2014 by Souris

[Guest]

I was thinking about the Shattered Sight spell and it was a true disappointment on the relationship front.  Snow and Charming are under a spell and all they can do is gripe at each other at how they met and about how Charming swaddles they have the baby.  In terms of pointing out how little interest the show has in exploring characterization and relationship dynamics amongst the Charmings, it ranks right up there with that stupid truth telling cave in Neverland.

[KAOS Agent]

 

This is all actually losing me sleep. Last night I found myself rewriting the way the scene should have gone. I may have to actually type it out to get it out of my head and move on.

 

Someone is actually rewriting the entire episode, Shanna Marie, so you're not alone in your need to fix things. I find it amusing when people are driven to such lengths, but then I hated the finale so much that I've pretty much avoided anything to do with the show so as to escape the aggravation.

 

I guess I shouldn't have been surprised that the showrunners completely dropped the payoff on the Captain Swan angst. We had an entire episode wherein Emma's issues with her parents and her childhood abandonment issues and belief that she's unlovable were front and center and they were completely wiped away with a 30 second phone call and a hug. I question why I'm even watching this show anymore. I couldn't care less about the silly chase our tails plotlines and that seems to be all they're interested in serving up at this stage, so maybe it's time I stopped caring. We didn't even get a reaction from Emma about getting her memories back and that occurring in conjunction with Ingrid's death. Shouldn't she be sad, upset, confused or angry? That relationship should have informed a lot more of Emma's issues, but once again, it was skipped over and just part of the twist that the Snow Queen was Emma's foster mother. Never mind that Emma loved her and considered her the family that she never had. 

[Rumsy4]

I question why I'm even watching this show anymore.

I think it's safe to say that many of us are.

[pezgirl7]

I'm not questioning why I still watch. It's because of Captain Swan. That's it for me at this point. If Colin were to leave the show, I probably would stop watching. I've watched the show since the beginning, so it certainly wasn't always that way for me. Every time I get excited about a new plot or a new character being introduced, I'm almost always disappointed. I wish the writers could figure out ways for the characters to interact and have meaningful conversations without being under constant threat.

[YaddaYadda]

Much as I love Hook and he is one of the reasons I'm still watching along with Emma, I'm disappointed that they seem to be stripping away his personality.  And honestly, 

 

If they took time to really writer relationships for the sake of relationships instead of plot points, the show would be hella better.

[Curio]

Much as I love Hook and he is one of the reasons I'm still watching along with Emma, I'm disappointed that they seem to be stripping away his personality.

 

Responding in the Hook thread.

[Dani-Ellie]

If they took time to really writer relationships for the sake of relationships instead of plot points, the show would be hella better.

 

Responding in the Writers thread.

[retrograde]

I watch the show because it's a ridiculous fairytale soap opera that distracts me on Sunday nights from the fact that I have to go to work the next morning. It's often not as good as it could be, which is frustrating, but if would take a lot for me to stop watching all together -- they'd probably have to kill Emma off.

Maybe this belongs in the unpopular opinion thread, but for me, the finale was hardly catastrophic. It was disappointing, but they didn't destroy the characters of Emma and Hook -- they kind of just didn't do anything with them. That was annoying, but at least they can just pick up where they left off in 4b (which is not to say they will, but I'll wait to see what actually happens before getting mad about anything).

[YaddaYadda]

No, the finale wasn't catastrophic.  I think it's about building up anticipation and not delivering on it that made it seem the way it was.  I mean the board after 408 was dead, dead, dead because the show wasn't on the next week and we're still talking about the winter finale that aired almost a week ago.

 

I know!  It's all a conspiracy to keep us talking about the show!!!  There's nothing worst than apathy.

[ShadowFacts]

 

 

I watch the show because it's a ridiculous fairytale soap opera that distracts me on Sunday nights from the fact that I have to go to work the next morning. It's often not as good as it could be, which is frustrating, but if would take a lot for me to stop watching all together -- they'd probably have to kill Emma off.

Maybe this belongs in the unpopular opinion thread, but for me, the finale was hardly catastrophic. It was disappointing, but they didn't destroy the characters of Emma and Hook -- they kind of just didn't do anything with them. That was annoying, but at least they can just pick up where they left off in 4b (which is not to say they will, but I'll wait to see what actually happens before getting mad about anything).

 

 

It veers toward character destruction of Emma for me when they have her caring more about Regina's little feelings, and wanting to give her a happy ending, than she appears to about her boyfriend who almost just croaked. Or her son who is roaming around a haunted mansion by himself.  But they've been pushing Emma down that path for quite a while, so maybe not catastrophic but bad enough.  Otherwise I agree -- ridiculous, soapy, distraction, not as good as it could be.  Check, check, check, check.  They do an especially crappy job with relationships aside from brief moments.

[Curio]

No, the finale wasn't catastrophic. I think it's about building up anticipation and not delivering on it that made it seem the way it was.

Yep. Overall, there have been far worse episodes than 4x11. But working the audience up to expect some kind of emotional payoff, only for the writers to essentially give the middle finger to "Basic Writing 101" isn't very satisfying. Seeing Belle force Rumple over the town line was one of my favorite scenes of the entire series. It's just that my bitterness towards seeing my favorite characters get sidelined in their own damn arc that still has me talking about it a week later.

 

I know! It's all a conspiracy to keep us talking about the show!!! There's nothing worst than apathy.

This is now my new theory about why they named the baby Neal... they just knew that two-part episode was good enough where the fans wouldn't squabble about it for weeks, so they threw that in there to keep us talking. 

[KingOfHearts]

Once is not a good show, but that's probably why I watch it. Call me strange, but I find horrible movies and tv shows entertaining just because of how bad they are. If I were watching for quality, I would have stopped watching altogether in S2. I'm just here to analyze the craziness and laugh at the ridiculousness. The fantasy setting and characters are a perk.

I think many people here are disappointed because they're fans of Emma (and CaptainSwan), and she didn't get any payoff this half-season. I can't say I'm a huge fan of hers or any of the relationships on the show, so the finale didn't make me wonder if I should quit watching. My main issue was the lack of an effective cliffhanger.

Edited December 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

My main issue was the lack of an effective cliffhanger.

 

Which both Colin and Lana mentioned in separate interviews, so I don't know if the reason I don't see a cliffhanger is because I'm spoiled, but my reaction was 3 flunkies, big deal.  I really think the way the show was edited together was wrong.  I think they should have left Rumple on his knees right outside of town crying and being a coward where people actually might wonder what happens to him during the hiatus.  That would have been a cliffhanger for the character who is so addicted to his magic that he can't really function properly.  But they show him in NYC and he doesn't have magic, but he is highly functional and he managed to track down Ursula to boot.

 

This is now my new theory about why they named the baby Neal... they just knew that two-part episode was good enough where the fans wouldn't squabble about it for weeks, so they threw that in there to keep us talking.

With them, anything is possible.  I mean personally, I was just plain excited for season 4 after last year's finale because it ended on such a high note (for me).  I remember us talking about Marian being back, the baby being named Neal, Rumple lying through his teeth to Belle and the time travel and its effect on the timeline.  I also remember gushing massively over CS.

 

Seeing Belle force Rumple over the town line was one of my favorite scenes of the entire series.

Ditto.  I've actually re-watched that scene several times and while Belle was pretty great in the way she finally decided that enough was enough, I absolutely enjoyed the parallel they drew between Rumple when he held Hook's heart and told him he imagined he would have crumbled by now to which Hook replied he wasn't the one who was a coward vs Rumple crying and begging Belle to give him another chance mainly because he was afraid.  If there's a relationship that's polar opposite, that one certainly is!

[KingOfHearts]

 

Which both Colin and Lana mentioned in separate interviews, so I don't know if the reason I don't see a cliffhanger is because I'm spoiled, but my reaction was 3 flunkies, big deal.

The fact Ursula was in NYC would have surprised me more if they didn't introduce magic door portals in 4A. Before than, having EF characters in the real world was a very intriguing idea to me. Then Ingrid did it, and it was pretty underwhelming. Now it's like, Big whoop. It's just a convenience so Rumple could get a pose going from where he's at.

 

 

But they show him in NYC and he doesn't have magic, but he is highly functional and he managed to track down Ursula to boot.

That bothered me. So he's got bus fare and a cane now after only six weeks? I'm surprised he didn't become some homeless mobster boss. (Though, maybe he is...)

Edited December 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

Once is not a good show, but that's probably why I watch it. Call me strange, but I find horrible movies and tv shows entertaining just because of how bad they are. If I were watching for quality, I would have stopped watching altogether in S2. I'm just here to analyze the craziness and laugh at the ridiculousness. The fantasy setting and characters are a perk.

Responding in the Writers Thread.

[Camera One]

but for me, the finale was hardly catastrophic. It was disappointing, but they didn't destroy the characters of Emma and Hook -- they kind of just didn't do anything with them. That was annoying, but at least they can just pick up where they left off in 4b (which is not to say they will, but I'll wait to see what actually happens before getting mad about anything).

 

I didn't think it was catastrophic for Emma or Hook either.  They have been doing this with Emma and her parents since Season 2.  It didn't even stand out to me until I came onto the board to read the comments.  Since Emma/Hook are a ship, there is actually a chance A&E might take notice and rectify it a little bit down the line. If only there was that kind of outcry when other relationships on the show get shafted or when other characters get destroyed or pushed aside.  The finale itself was weak because it focused on the weakest elements of 4A... basically, anything that wasn't Frozen.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Camera One

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's please remember, this is about Relationships on OUAT. Going forward, posts may be moved or deleted that are not about relationships.

 

Thanks for posting!

[KingOfHearts]

 

Though I guess it's hard to stress out over this problem when the writers don't even bother to have the main characters caring about each other.

It bothers me that Red and Snow are supposedly BFFs and they haven't hooked up at all in Storybrooke. They haven't even spoken to each other outside of the reunion with Charming, Granny and the dwarves in 2x01. There are so many relationships on this show that seemed to cease to exist.

[YaddaYadda]

Well, they sort of did speak together in 322, last year's finale.  But I agree, Red and Snow had a great friendship that has now been reduced to nothing because we're all busy with the villain of the day parade.

[Rumsy4]

If they had brought Red back instead of Will Scarlet, it would have led to more organic scenes with the main characters.

[KingOfHearts]

Well, they sort of did speak together in 322, last year's finale. But I agree, Red and Snow had a great friendship that has now been reduced to nothing because we're all busy with the villain of the day parade.

Not really in Storybrooke, though. She and Snow never really talked to each other, just to everyone else.

Edited December 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

They had a fight when Snow called Belle to babysit Do Over?  They're not on speaking terms, because really...Belle instead of Ruby?  No, no, no...

[Camera One]

I remember that scene they added in "Witch Hunt", where it looked like Red and Snow were about to talk, but it was actually setup for Snow to comfort Regina about being separated from Henry.  They don't value the best relationships they themselves created.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Camera One

[The Cake is a Pie]

I would love to see Ruby again, but I can't really fault the writers if the actress isn't available. What are they going to do, get a stand-in in a red cloak and only shoot her from the back?

They really do need to flesh out the relationships Belle has with the rest of the town, though. Other than a few references to babysitting and only being in scenes long enough to say she'll go look something up in the library, she doesn't have any real connection to anyone other than Rumple. Now that he's gone I hope they can explore how she fits in with the rest of the characters.