Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Rumsy4]

Oh, absolutely. The point I was trying to make is that the show seems to be trying to wedge in more relationship between the two of them than what was actually shown or there. It's realistic for Henry to mourn the fact that he never really got to know his bio father, but it's less realistic for the writers to cram in random Neal/Henry moments that never happened on screen like Yazoo bonding. 

 

I agree there. The writers compensate for having actual "kitchen sink" conversations by pretending they happened, and it mostly comes across as ludicrously unbelievable.

 

I would hope that as Henry matures and sees more of what a real father can be like, he'll be less fixated on the idea of Neal.

 

There's definitely a touch of idealization in Henry's conception of his father. One would think it was intentional on the writers' part, if not for the fact that the narrative itself has taken a similar turn. 

[Curio]

"Oh, look, a bomb! Now, I know you've never diffused a bomb before, and I know if the bomb goes off it's going to kill everyone around you, but that's ok, sweetie-kins, jump in. I believe you." :-)

Isn't it Emma's daily job to diffuse bombs? I think she's kind of a pro at it by now. ;)

 

At the risk of having virtual rotten eggs hurled at me at the end of a really sucky week, I've always disagreed with the "Neal didn't believe in Emma" argument. The details were incredibly poorly done (because TS;TW) but in the big pieces of the overall story, Neal was clearly Team Emma.

Sorry about the sucky week, Amerilla. In an effort to not hurl rotten eggs at you, I'll just copy and paste part of a review from Nerdy Girl Notes about this topic. (She's generally one of the most level-headed reviewers out there and she actually respects all of the characters, so I like reading her input on the show.)

"It made sense for Neal to be the one to suggest that Emma turn around for her own safety and the safety of her loved ones. Neal never had the sense of hope that’s written into the DNA of Emma’s family; he didn’t believe he was strong enough to stay and fight for and beside the woman he loved, so he left her behind and never tried to find her. Therefore, it felt right for Neal to be the one to warn Emma that her hopes could be in vain and that it would be safer to turn around and leave Killian behind. Hope isn’t a natural state of mind for Neal, so for him to be the voice of doubt in Emma’s mind was ultimately a perfect choice."

 

So Neal is in Henry's life just long enough to become a larger-than-life figure who is now lost to him, and that creates a void that could manifest in different ways over the rest of the story.

I think that's a good point, and I wish the show would spend more time exploring this concept. Neal is like that cool uncle who only comes into town once a year and gives his nephew an awesome gift, then ditches out the rest of the year. Of course Henry will have an elevated view of him and think he's this larger-than-life figure because of the extremely short amount of time they spent together. Maybe when Henry is older he'll mature enough to the point of understanding the darker sides of Neal, but for now, it's realistic for Henry to view him almost like a super hero. Emma on the other hand...

[Shanna Marie]

So Neal is in Henry's life just long enough to become a larger-than-life figure who is now lost to him, and that creates a void that could manifest in different ways over the rest of the story.

I would imagine that as a lonely kid growing up with no friends his age and with a psychotic narcissist of a single mother, Henry dreamed of having a dad, and that was probably an idealized image cobbled together from whatever media he was allowed to consume -- a dash of Atticus Finch, a touch of Arthur Weasley, some Pa Kent, sitcom dads (if Regina let him watch TV), and bits of the real men in his life, like Archie and Graham. When he got the storybook and figured out that Prince Charming was his grandfather, that got thrown into the mix, and then there was what Emma told him about the fake hero dad. So when Henry met Neal, all of that got mapped onto Neal, with Neal's actual traits fleshing out the image. In the time they actually spent together, Neal was basically the "Disney Dad," the non-custodial parent with whom the entire time they spend together is fun built around the kid. Mom(s) may deal with day-to-day stuff like homework, chores, brushing teeth and taking baths, dentist and doctor appointments, etc., but all the time with dad is fighting with wooden swords, hanging out and talking about girls, etc. Then there's all that heroic-looking stuff like sailing the pirate ship, coming after him in Neverland, and dying so the message about Zelena could be passed on. Now the ideal image of the perfect dad is mapped onto cool hipster dad Neal, with a dash of that larger-than-life heroic stuff and a loss too soon for any of it to become reality, and it's possibly even enhanced by whatever Hook has told him about young Bae and their time in Neverland and that ideal image may also now contain a dash of Hook himself because of Hook's association with Henry's dad.

 

I imagine that if Henry had spent more time with Neal, the image would be a lot more realistic and he might be less fixated, not so much because Neal sucks (though he did, a bit), but because he's a human being. Henry would have had to deal with the real person. He might have become disappointed, since no one could have lived up to that image, and then he might have worked through it to come to know and love the reality -- or possibly to realize he wasn't all that great.

[mjgchick]

The way Henry idealize Neal is the way fans idealize the likes of Kurt Cobain, Selena, Tupac, Aaliyah etc... They didn't live long enough to disappoint you. Neal (even though he basically screwed his mother over.) didn't do anything to hurt Henry. The minute Emma lies to Henry or doesn't let him in on her dangerous plans he gets so upset at her because he put her on this high pedestal. Neal never stayed long enough to do that with Henry.

[KingOfHearts]

From a spoilery article, no spoilers:
 

 

“When she came back, she realized that Gold, for the first time, had been completely unselfish and sacrificed himself for her,” Robert Carlyle says. “He could’ve used that potion and could’ve gotten out of town himself, but he hasn’t. He’s given it to her."

I didn't see that as particularly unselfish or sacrificial. It reminds me of when Regina gave Emma and Henry good memories, but it's even less noble. Rumple was going to die anyway, so it was decent to at least let Belle go live her life of adventure in the outside world. Five minutes later he becomes the Dark One and totally negates any sliver of humanity he just displayed.

Edited March 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Dianthus]

Amerilla, on 11 Mar 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

"Oh, look, a bomb! Now, I know you've never diffused a bomb before, and I know if the bomb goes off it's going to kill everyone around you, but that's ok, sweetie-kins, jump in. I believe you." :-)

 

Looking at the scene, I don't see where Neal is saying she's incapable of doing what she's doing - he's not saying he doesn't believe in her, he's saying that it's dangerous and unlikely to go the way she plans (which is objectively true), and that as someone who loves her, he had an obligation to at least try to dissuade her. In real-world terms, that's what any decent, loving friend would do if they saw someone they loved heading into a situation which could hurt them.  

 

(Obviously, the main point of the Swanfire scene was to set up the stakes and have Emma say "f--k it, I'm doing it anyway, because #truelove." You don't get there by having Neal manifest just to say: "Wow, this is awesome! You and Hook, man, how frigging cute you guys are! They could make you into those little Funko Pops! What an epic romantic quest! And Henry getting to see the Underworld? B-E-A-U-T-iful. Fantastic parenting, and no, I'm not being facecious." That dosen't move the story and it doesn't make much sense. As it is, the story ended in 5a with a group of alleged adults almost wordlessly deciding to abandon their tiny children on a possibly one-way trip help Emma get her very-dead boyfriend back.)

 

At the risk of having virtual rotten eggs hurled at me at the end of a really sucky week, I've always disagreed with the "Neal didn't believe in Emma" argument. The details were incredibly poorly done (because TS;TW) but in the big pieces of the overall story, Neal was clearly Team Emma. Neal believed that Emma could break the curse and be reunited with her family if she wasn't with him. Neal believed that it was best for her to stay with Henry and for him to be dropped to his near-certain death after Tamara shot him. Neal believed that Emma could save them from Zelena when he sent Hook with the memory potion. Neal believed that Emma could defeat the Wicked Witch if Emma let him die and Rumpel could divulge Zelena's name. At virtually every pivot in the story where he had to make a choice between Emma-as-Savior and his own happiness or safety, he priotitized her and the people that she could help over himself.

 

I think when the story so heavily leans on Neal's status as hero, that's the foundation: that he was someone who was willing to put himself on the line for the greater good, whether it was opening a portal to try save his father's  soul and protect the people who might have been hurt by him, or to put himself at the mercy of the Shadow so the Darling family could stay intact, or casting Emma out of his life, or letting himself die. The fatal flaw is that, even though his intentions are good, there's always unanticipated blowback - Rumpel hurts generations of people in an attempt to find him, the Darlings come after him and lose their family anyway, Emma gives up their child and retreats emotionally, etc.          

 

 

 

 

Well, the writers' mantra is "Tell, Don't Show," so there's that. And Orza is correct about the fairy-tale insta-bond.

 

But, also - Henry is a Stiltskin, and that's how they roll.

 

Malcolm couldn't accept being an adult. His loss of childhood drove him to extremes to return to that state and to hang on to it, no matter who he hurt or what he had do to maintain it.

 

Pre-DO Rumpel couldn't accept the fact that he might not get to be with Bae, to the point where he crippled himself, lost his marriage, and ultimately turned dark in his attempt to outrun fate. Post-DO, he couldn't let Bae be gone, he couldn't let go of his mistake, he couldn't turn back the clock, and he hurt generations of people in the attempt to get back what he lost. Even when he finds Bae, he loses him again, and again, and again.

 

Nealfire is a little different...his wound, his void, is family and home. He starts out in a loving home, and he loses it. He finds a new family in the Darlings, and he loses it. He looks to a future with Emma, and he loses it. He looks to a future with Tamara, and it's a dupe. He wants to be with Emma and Henry, and it gets him killed. The moment that happiness was in his grasp, it was snatched away. 

Which brings us to Henry. He grew up fatherless and well aware of it. Emma presents him with the idea of Neal as a heroic, fallen firefighter. When he meets Neal, he's primed to see a heroic figure, and that's reinforced by Neal stealing a pirate ship to take them to safety and joining in the fight against Cora. Plus, Neal was a child in Neverland for decades, so during the brief period they spend together, he's the cool adult who can play and fake sword-fight even more than Charming. Then Neal "dies." They reunite in Neverland, but really only have a day or two before Curse 2.0. And that's the last Henry ever sees of him, apparently forever.

 

So Neal is in Henry's life just long enough to become a larger-than-life figure who is now lost to him, and that creates a void that could manifest in different ways over the rest of the story. Henry's overall actions could be dictated by the desire to somehow get Neal back from the Beyond, or losing his "real" father could be the thing that prevents him from ever fully bonding with father-figures like Hook or Robin. Or, since it's this show, it could fade into the background and never be mentioned again.

A shitty analogy for a shitty week, eh? Seriously, you have my sympathy (not knowing the specifics of your situation, I can only say that work's been long and tiresome for me this past week or so), but this is hardly new ground for an Emma who's lacking specialized knowledge. As a bond enforcement agent, it was her job to go find people (who generally didn't want to be found) and bring them in. Yes, the Underworld is gonna be tricky, but she's not without resources. It once again serves to highlight the differences between SF and CS. Don't even bother vs. I've yet to see you fail.

[Geeni]

I know it's the #1 sin to like Neal and dislike Hook on this board, but I don't care and I agree with Amerilla. Believe it or not, Neal was actually not a heartless person when he was alive - heck, he was a lot nicer than a bunch of the other characters - and regardless of how people's blind biases are spinning intentions in that opening scene, maybe he actually didn't WANT Emma to endanger not only herself, but everyone else, including his own son (and I guess his father). I bet if he had told her to go for it, he would be hung with not trying to stop her when there are dangers and literal death afoot. Hm.

 

Honestly, I think Hook would agree with Neal on this one, especially about Emma endangering herself. So I guess he "wouldn't believe in her" either.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Geeni

[daxx]

Killian would tell her not to come but it would be very clear that it's not because he doesn't believe she can do it but because he doesn't believe he is worth it. Totally different vibe and it would leave Emma feeling very different than the scene we saw.

She would have hope and determination to prove to him just how worthy he is of being saved.

I have always seen a different Emma around Neal, she seems younger and insecure where with Hook she is far more mature, independent and confident.

[mjgchick]

Yeah Killian wouldn't want her to come not because he doesn't believe in her (the guy has always praised her from the moment they met and it wasn't to get her to trust him either. He actually meant it.) but because he doesn't think he is worth it. Neal on the other hand made fun of her lie detector powers or whatever. Yes it doesn't work all the time but Killian never made fun of her over it and he as someone who has no use for magic is always encouraging her to use hers.

I don't know if its some biased but I just never seen Neal as someone who believed in Emma. I think if he did he'd rather find another way to get her to storybrook without her going to juvy. He ran away and let her deal with his mess.

I have always seen a different Emma around Neal, she seems younger and insecure where with Hook she is far more mature, independent and confident.

It always feels like she did him wrong and not the other way. As if she has to tip toe around him. Its so bizarre. Edited March 13, 2016 by mjgchick

[Camera One]

I don't know if its some biased but I just never seen Neal as someone who believed in Emma. I think if he did he'd rather find another way to get her to storybrook without her going to juvy. He ran away and let her deal with his mess.

 

For me, his abandonment wasn't a matter of not believing in Emma.  I agree with the Nerdy Girls Notes assessment that Curio linked to above, since I think it was more about Neal not believing in himself, thinking he'd hold Emma back, and totally giving in to his fear of seeing his father again.  He would have needed to overcome that fear in order to help Emma to find another way into Storybrooke, and those deeply embedded internal issues completely overpowered any other external factors, including his feelings for Emma.

[tri4335]

For me, his abandonment wasn't a matter of not believing in Emma.  I agree with the Nerdy Girls Notes assessment that Curio linked to above, since I think it was more about Neal not believing in himself, thinking he'd hold Emma back, and totally giving in to his fear of seeing his father again.  He would have needed to overcome that fear in order to help Emma to find another way into Storybrooke, and those deeply embedded internal issues completely overpowered any other external factors, including his feelings for Emma.

I agree that it was not that Neal didn't believe in Emma here but didn't believe in himself. I thought that was what the writers wanted to convey that inherently the Rumpelstiltskin men were cowards. That when push came to shove they would abandon people in their lives to serve their own purpose. Rumple is a coward who didn't want to be without power, Malcolm was a coward who could not deal with grown up responsibilities and Neal was a coward who could not face his father. My interpretation was that they were deliberately showing this inherent trait.

 

I also don't think that they limited this theme of inherent traits to just the Stiltskin family but continued this through the other two "main" families. The Mills women are inherently envious and vindictive.  We see that with Cora, Regina and Zelina. We see them make "wrong" choices will little provocation.  In the early seasons, the White Family is inherently "good" and honorable. We see Snow help people at the determent to herself. We see Emma who has the hardest life still make the hard choice and help others when she would have the most "excuses" to be bad.  We see Eva take Snow to task for being mean and lording it over staff.  It is as the story goes on and we get all these retcons and retreads that they are now trying to make everyone grey and what makes fans think that characters are OOC now. It is why we all scratch our heads after each episode trying to reconcile what we've seen on the screen to what we believe the character to be. 

 

 

Yeah Killian wouldn't want her to come not because he doesn't believe in her (the guy has always praised her from the moment they met and it wasn't to get her to trust him either. He actually meant it.) but because he doesn't think he is worth it. Neal on the other hand made fun of her lie detector powers or whatever. Yes it doesn't work all the time but Killian never made fun of her over it and he as someone who has no use for magic is always encouraging her to use hers.

I don't know if its some biased but I just never seen Neal as someone who believed in Emma. I think if he did he'd rather find another way to get her to storybrook without her going to juvy. He ran away and let her deal with his mess.

It always feels like she did him wrong and not the other way. As if she has to tip toe around him. Its so bizarre.

 

The above is what I believe is the mistake they made with Neal. It was not in the original leaving of Emma but in his responses to her on his return and her responses to him as the seasons have gone on.  I could've have forgiven Neal and accepted his reasons for leaving her and put the blame on August had they not had him act all holier than thou when learning of Henry. He acts like the wronged party when in reality he did not know of his son because he was the one who left. Worse he then proceeded to mock the mother of his child in front of the child. That is what I find unacceptable.  Then the writers decided to have Emma not react to these wrongs by Neal and we a throwaway line "that it wasn't your fault and I understand".  Well since I did not see them work through that, I don't understand and I still hold him accountable for his actions.  Furthermore, Emma is all friendly with August so she doesn't seem to blame him either. This is what infuriates me with this show, everyone (Snowing, Regina, August, Neal and Rumple) get to shit all over Emma and she never gets to respond in what I would call a true manner!

 

And Neal's actions are not the only thing that gets a hand wave.  Regina does not get held accountable for what she did to Emma. She does not have honest interactions with her parents.  She has to sacrifice her happiness for everyone else.

[Camera One]

Then the writers decided to have Emma not react to these wrongs by Neal and we a throwaway line "that it wasn't your fault and I understand".  Well since I did not see them work through that, I don't understand and I still hold him accountable for his actions.

 

Yes, there was a lot to work through there, and that would have been interesting to see.  It was completely dropped once Neal came to Storybrooke in 2B and they even felt the need to manufacture a whole new plot with Tamara.  Which is very typical of these writers.  Ditto for them making up that Eggbaby lie ret-con in 4B when there was already a lot of good relationship building we could have seen between Emma and Snowing.  Or the writers making up the dumb Robin/Marian crap in lieu of giving Regina a true redemption arc.  Time and time again, A&E intentionally jumps over any relationship development to distract us with shining new bells.  Emma and Hook is the exception rather than the rule since they actually gave them time and gradual development and real conversations.  So Regina and Rumple are A&E's favorites, but they give their best writing to Emma and Hook.  Everyone else, including Neal, just serviced those four, their responses and actions dependent on whatever was needed.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I would say that in general, Neal was mostly on Team Neal. He may also have been on Team Emma, but his primary loyalty was to Team Neal. So while he abandoned her and let her go to prison for what was really his crime because he was trying to help her be ready to face her destiny, he did things the way he did because he didn't want to go near his father. As he told her when they were reunited, if he'd known who she was, he wouldn't have gone near her. He stayed away from her instead of keeping tabs on her or meeting her in Tallahassee after she got out of jail because he was distancing himself from his father, and he probably didn't head to Storybrooke once he knew the curse was broken for the same reason. I don't think it was that he didn't believe in himself. It was that his desire to stay away from his father was far greater than his desire to be with her. Then when they were reunited, he made things easy on himself by letting Emma be the bad guy with Henry and throwing her under the bus rather than owning up to what he'd done to her. He brought his fiancee to town right away in a way that came across as him trying to have the upper hand with Emma, like he was rubbing her face in the fact that he'd moved on. Later, he brought back the Dark One because he wanted to be with Henry (and maybe Emma), not because he thought they needed him, since Henry wouldn't remember him and Emma would only remember him abandoning her, but because he wanted to be with them. He was so opposed to the Dark One and his father using his powers that he went to another world, but when he wanted something, he was willing to take the risk to bring the Dark One back, in spite of being warned that it was a trap.

 

That's why his warning to Emma was rather eyeroll-worthy. Based on the way he always behaved, if he'd wanted something, he'd have been the first one to do something stupid and risky without thinking it through. It would just have depended on how much he wanted it, and he likely would have done it more because he wanted it than for the sake of the other person (and if he hadn't wanted it badly enough, he'd have bailed at the first sign of discomfort or difficulty). I feel like Emma is doing this more for Hook's sake than because she misses him. She didn't come up with the idea of going after him until she learned that his sacrifice had been cheated, so it wasn't just about her wanting him back. It was that he shouldn't have had to die.

[Camera One]

That interpretation would fit if one completely discounted that Neal was supposed to be Baelfire.  Even though the actor choice was jarring and the writing for the two often felt completely disparate, they were meant to be the same person.  In the bigger picture, I think the reasoning behind the various decisions ran deeper than just Neal always only looking after himself and being on his own team.  At least that's what A&E intended, as unsuccessful as they were.

[Rumsy4]

We needed a flashback or two to explain Baelfire's transformation from brave teen into low-key thief and drifter. Maybe a flashback to his last years in Neverland after he lost all hope and stopped making the years. Or maybe his struggles to acclimatize to his reintroduction to the land w/o magic in the 20th century. But that would mean A&E were actually interested in his character. 

[mjgchick]

That's true. A/E not being interested in his character is probably why the writing for him is so clunky and why I have this hate for the character. The only time I feel for Bae is when he's a kid because adult Neal can be an ass. He's not a villain like Regina, Hook, Rumple or even as bad as Dark Swan ripping a young girls heart but what he did to Emma was very human which is probably the other reason why I have such a hard time liking him. Its something you can see someone do to another person in real life. Oh and he should've called DCF anonymously (He was wanted after all.) when he saw a homeless teen out in the streets. That's just me thinking as a responsible adult. lol

[PixiePaws1]

Oh and he should've called DCF anonymously (He was wanted after all.) when he saw a homeless teen out in the streets. That's just me thinking as a responsible adult. lol

If he'd called DFC he might have missed out on his unprotected jollies with a vulnerable teen desperate for affection. ...He wouldn't have denied himself.

[Shanna Marie]

We needed a flashback or two to explain Baelfire's transformation from brave teen into low-key thief and drifter. Maybe a flashback to his last years in Neverland after he lost all hope and stopped making the years. Or maybe his struggles to acclimatize to his reintroduction to the land w/o magic in the 20th century.

That's what they should have shown during the Neverland arc instead of still more Snow vs. Regina. He would have been a lot more sympathetic if we'd seen what he went through and how that transition took place as he lost hope, both in Neverland and then arriving in the 20th century. Then his relationship with Emma might have made more sense.

 

He's not a villain like Regina, Hook, Rumple or even as bad as Dark Swan ripping a young girls heart but what he did to Emma was very human which is probably the other reason why I have such a hard time liking him.

That's where this show's inability to really deal with gray areas hurts them. You're either a hero or a villain, so since Neal wasn't a villain, he's a hero. But no matter how many times they say that, it doesn't ring true. He was a flawed human being. He didn't intentionally do evil, but he caused a lot of harm with his weakness.

 

Though really, I think the relationship stuff they skipped with Neal was with his father. After all he did to avoid being reunited with his father, he reconciles with him awfully easily. It's like they waved a magic wand and everything was suddenly "I love you, Papa" and bringing back the Dark One because he believed in his father. The fact that his father destroyed a civilization to get to him and murdered his mother didn't seem to have bothered him all that much.

[KAOS Agent]

One of the things that's always bothered me about the way Neal left Emma is that he knows what it feels like to be so deeply betrayed by someone you love. He told his father that every night for more years than he could know he saw his father letting him go and choosing magic/power over him. So he knows how profoundly that's going to affect Emma, who finally thought she'd found a family, when he betrays her that way. Then he acts like a total jerk when Emma tells him not to break Henry's heart like he broke hers. And maybe you could overlook his attitude given some of the shocks he'd gotten if he hadn't just been reaming his father for doing the exact same thing to him and explaining exactly how it felt. He hasn't forgotten how much it sucked for him, but Emma doesn't have a right to feel that same anger or express any concern that he might pull that same crap on her son. There was just so much about that relationship that was messed up.

[Dianthus]

I know it's the #1 sin to like Neal and dislike Hook on this board, but I don't care and I agree with Amerilla. Believe it or not, Neal was actually not a heartless person when he was alive - heck, he was a lot nicer than a bunch of the other characters - and regardless of how people's blind biases are spinning intentions in that opening scene, maybe he actually didn't WANT Emma to endanger not only herself, but everyone else, including his own son (and I guess his father). I bet if he had told her to go for it, he would be hung with not trying to stop her when there are dangers and literal death afoot. Hm.

 

Honestly, I think Hook would agree with Neal on this one, especially about Emma endangering herself. So I guess he "wouldn't believe in her" either.

Oh. deflection and a strawman in the same post. Nice! For one thing, I never said Neal was heartless. Am I biased? Hell to the yeah! Never said I wasn't either.

[Shanna Marie]

I was a little bothered by Henry talking about "Grandma Cora." I know the kid was always desperate for family and "but they're family!" is a rallying cry on this show, but you'd think he might have paused about giving her the title. She's the biological mother of his adoptive mother, so she is legally his grandmother, but she was abusive to her daughter, and Henry had zero relationship with her. I don't remember, did they even interact? Meanwhile, she tried to kill his biological mother and grandmother, murdered his biological great grandmother, and wanted to kill his grandfather to steal his powers. This is one case where it would be okay for him to refer to her as just "Cora" or "Mom's mother" or "Regina's mother." Heck, Hook is more of a "Grandpa Killian" to Henry than Cora is a "Grandma Cora," given that he actually had what sounds like a reasonably good (after a while) relationship with Henry's father when he was a boy and had a positive, loving long-term relationship with Henry's grandmother and has interacted quite a bit with Henry (and he has as much DNA in common with Henry as Cora does), and I'd think it was weird and creepy if Henry referred to him that way.

[KAOS Agent]

One of my favorite things Belle has done on this show was shut down Henry when he started calling her Grandma Belle. If he runs into Pan, is he going to start calling him grandpa too? Henry and his need to give people family titles is kind of creepy.

[mjgchick]

Henry about to call Zelena auntie.

[KingOfHearts]

When Henry said "Grandma Cora" it sounded like sarcasm or it was in jest. I didn't find anything particularly sentimental about it.

Edited March 17, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Quoted from another thread:

Robin is well aware of Regina's past. He was an outlaw in the EQ's kingdom himself. He just doesn't care because they're Soul Mates or whatever.

 

While Robin might be aware of Regina's past, I still get the impression that he doesn't realize how dark she truly was as the Evil Queen. Just because Robin was an outlaw in her realm doesn't mean he knew every dirty detail that went down or knew Regina's personality when she was still batshit insane and licked pies. Mysthaven didn't have a 24/7 news channel to let everyone know how crazy Regina was like we do with Trump, so most of the stories Robin probably heard about the Evil Queen were spoken tales that turned into a game of telephone. He ran from her Black Nights, but their first meeting during the Missing Year implied that they'd never met in person before, so he never got to witness any of the Evil Queen tyranny first hand. And because this show sucks at showing meaningful character conversations on screen, we don't know how much Regina has told him about her past, or if she just says things like, "I wasn't a great person." If we don't even know as an audience if Robin knows Regina tortured Marian, then I also assume there's a lot about Regina's history he doesn't know either.

 

The episode that convinced me Regina is still keeping a good portion of her Evil Queen persona a secret from Robin is the Shattered Spell episode. That could have been the opportunity for Robin to see the Evil Queen in her prime form, but the writers didn't even include him in the episode. Robin said he wasn't afraid of seeing Regina in her Evil Queen form, but she responded, "You really should be." That makes it seem like Robin is still naive about how terrible Regina actually was, and because he was missing from that entire episode, he didn't even get to see an appetizer of what he was missing out on.

 

The show has had Belle accept Rumple as the Dark One, Emma and Hook survived the Dark One mess, but the writers are still afraid of letting Robin see Regina in her darkest form. Throwing in a line about being "bold and audacious" doesn't cut it.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

Throwing in a line about being "bold and audacious" doesn't cut it.

 

It's clear that they did that so that they don't have to explore anything remotely serious with OQ. That's the conclusion I've come to at least.

[Mari]

It could also be another case of the show writers (and occasionally some performers) mentally separating the Evil Queen and Regina into two separate characters.

 

In Mysthaven, during the missing year, when Regina was in full Her Majesty, Widow White attire, there seemed to be dislike and/or some disdain that I was expecting to slowly transition into respect, and then affection.

 

The romantic relationship began only after Robin met Mayor Mills--who is often treated as completely separate, and merely sharing a few relatives with Her Majesty, Widow White.

 

"Bold and audacious" could easily have come from that bizarre, but consistent, mental hiccup of a separation the show displays.

[tennisgurl]

I posted about this in the episode thread, but I feel like it should be here too. What is the deal with the lack of anything between Regina and Robin lately? Seriously. Regina sees her father? Robin is nowhere. Regina tried to find out what happened to her tragically murdered first love? Apparently Robin was busy or something. Why did they even have Robin come along, if they never give him anything to do? The Regina/Robin relationship never made a whole lot of sense to me (what do they do for fun together? What are they're common interests?), but this is getting ridiculous. They never even seem to make eye contact anymore, when they're supposed to be soulmates! If you want me to buy these people in a relationship, show them being in a relationship! 

Edited March 21, 2016 by tennisgurl

[Rumsy4]

I get that it was a nice touch to have Show accompany Regina to Daniel's gravestone, considering their history. But is there a rule against including Robin in that field trip? Same with Henry Sr.. Why couldn't both Robin and Henry Jr. be with Regina when she said goodbye to her father? Robin has not been part of any meaningful Regina moments so far this arc. I'm questioning the writers' justification for having him accompany the Nevengers to the UW when he is not allowed screentime, and a newborn back in Storybrooke. 

[Shanna Marie]

The writing for Robin and Regina is just baffling. First, the soulmates thing. That's a big trope in paranormal romance, where two people are fated mates, put together by destiny, but it's usually written so that they don't actually like each other at all but can't help but be drawn to each other, or else there's some kind of magical thing going on that meals their powers amplify around each other and they're weaker apart, or perhaps they click and are perfect for each other but are on opposite sides of some conflict, so that they're enemies who are meant to be together and have to fight through that issue, either in a Romeo and Juliet kind of situation where they're in love but part of opposing factions or in a situation where they really do hate each other's positions even while they love each other as individuals. With Robin and Regina, they've done none of that. The soulmate thing is just there to create a shortcut for an instant relationship. They don't seem to click in a way that makes it obvious they belong together. There was no conflict about their situation. They didn't even do anything with the Marian problem -- what would it mean to have your soulmate be the person who took your first wife away from you?

 

And now that they're together, they aren't really together. We don't know what they do together, what they talk about. They don't seem to have shared values or priorities. Now they aren't even giving them scenes together.

[mjgchick]

I'm so annoyed with how they've written Robin/Regina. I wished we'd get scenes where Robin gets to see dark moments of Regina's past. Or we see him comfort her while she sees Daniel has moved on. We got to see Emma console Killian when he finds out Milah was there to save him as well. Why are they so afraid to write for them? This only make me suspicious that they gave Regina a soul mate because Lana asked for a love interests.

On a good note, loved how happy Snow and Charming were to see Hook. Loved Hook calling them his friends when he dragged Rumple for making his sacrifice be for nothing.

[Curio]

Belle, gurrrrrl, you should have stuck with Will when you had the chance.

[Katherine]

I think they really dropped the ball on the Will/Belle storyline. Even if the two of them were never going to be serious, it would've been nice to see how their relationship started and progressed. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think they could've been an interesting couple. Maybe even a nice contrast to all the 'epic' true love couples. Let's just see what a regular, low drama, non-soulmate relationship looks like.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Katherine

[mjgchick]

That did happen. It was Hook and Emma before S5 happened.

[mjgchick]

Emiliah could've been a great GirlTP. Of course Rumple that asshat had to go and ruin it for that woman. Only Rumple could make me root for a woman who left her kid with.

I'm still upset she never got to meet Henry and say goodbye to Killian. I really hope they find a way to get her out because if freaking Regina and Rumple can get a happy ending surely she should deserve one. Also for her to slap her son for screwing her grandsons mother over after he forgives her for leaving him.

[scenicbyway]

I thought it was interesting that we basically got confirmation in  Devil's Due that Emma and Hook have consummated their relationship.  The show has been pretty cagey about it, since every other True Love couple has been shown in some state of undress and Captain Swan just gets a lot of walks and kisses.  I get that they may not know what to do with the brace, but they did put him in a hospital gown, surely they can work something out.

[oliverwendell]

 

I thought it was interesting that we basically got confirmation in  Devil's Due that Emma and Hook have consummated their relationship.

 

We did?

[mjgchick]

The crib in their Underworld house.

[Rumsy4]

That's Emma's baby crib from the EF. Why would it mean CS had coffee?

[HoodlumSheep]

The crib in their Underworld house.

Forever on Team-it-hasn't-happened-yet-because-they-didn't-show-anything.

If that's what the crib's supposed to mean, then sorry, that doesn't cut it. I just thought it meant the crib had unfinished business like the Author's pen. Probably because it never got used.

But to each their own, I guess.

Edited March 21, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[ABitOFluff]

We did?

Milah: "So you've been with my former lover and my son, is that right?"

 

Emma didn't deny it. #Teamthey'vebeendoingitbutthat'sokaybecausetherel'salwaysrooomforJello...err, there's always room for coffee.

Edited March 21, 2016 by ABitOFluff

[mjgchick]

How many times has one of the bad guys called Hook and Emma each others lover? The promo guy as well.

[Curio]

Milah: "So you've been with my former lover and my son, is that right?"

 

She could have just implied dating in general. You can technically "be" with someone in a relationship, make out a lot, but still never get around to doing the deed yet. But I never made the connection that Emma's crib/nursery decorations = Captain Swan consummation. If anything, I thought it had more to do with Emma's abandonment issues and she's always had a sore spot for being an orphan and how her parents gave her away. That's not to say that maybe the show is suggesting a little one is in the cards for those two, but I didn't see it as definitive proof. (Although maybe we'll get a flashback of the missing 6 weeks between 4A and 4B where they finally show that it happened then.)

Edited March 21, 2016 by Curio

[pezgirl7]

Just to play devil's advocate, "been with" doesn't necessarily have to mean in the biblical sense. Although I have to admit that's the first place my mind went!

[YaddaYadda]

Aww, you guys are so cute! 

 

They fucked like rabbits. End of story. There was that scene that they cut from 4x14 when Emma asks MM why they didn't call her because Regina was missing (you know her undercover assignment), the reply was, well you were at Hook's...

 

Adam, the jerk, when asked said that they didn't feel it was appropriate to keep that in the dialogue because of what was going on with Regina, and the whole situation. That's one time I wished I had Twitter, because my reply was going to be "but when Emma is missing, and Regina is busy banging Robin in the crypt while his wife is frozen, and she's not answering her phone, that's not inappropriate?"

 

I know, not canon, blah blah blah...

 

I think they've dropped words here and there about that situation. Everyone will believe what they want in this situation. But they can easily fix this by doing a quick flashback of post-whatever if they're going there with CS as well.

[ABitOFluff]

I respect everyone's CS headcanon, because frankly, I too would like to see an intimate, romantic scene like that. But I also like to think they have a healthy adult relationship, sexy times and all.

 

Also, if someone like Milah asked me if I had been with her ex lover, I'd be like, "Us? Oh, we're more like really close friends. Yeah...totally friends."

[scenicbyway]

Milah: "So you've been with my former lover and my son, is that right?"

Emma didn't deny it. #Teamthey'vebeendoingitbutthat'sokaybecausetherel'salwaysrooomforJello...err, there's always room for coffee.

This was said after Rumple told Milah about the pregnancy between Neal and Emma.

Milah's question more than implies that Emma has had sex with Neal and Hook. And Emma didn't deny it.

[Mari]

True, Emma didn't deny it.  But, it was the sort of thing that would be easier to just drop than give a "We've been dating for a while, and I really love him, but there's been no groinal contact as of yet.  I'm planning on groinal contact as soon as we're no longer in this weirdly filtered light.  Any tips?"  

 

(Not that I really care one way or the other.  Just saying that there's still some plausible deniability there.)

[Curio]

I feel like the more the writers see fans argue about this, the longer they'll keep putting off showing it on screen, and it'll turn into this long-running gag until the end of the series.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Curio

[mjgchick]

They should at least have Granny say something about not missing the noises Emma and Hook use to make late night. Hee.