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Lots Of People Are Happy To Have Gotten Through Season 2

Primetimer

By Primetimer
in The Wire [V]

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Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

I remember years ago debating with people online as to whether or not Stringer giving up the towers was a good idea or not. I always thought it was stupid, because while your drug supply can go up and down, you are never going to get those towers back. Plus if Prop Joe is selling drugs in tower A, but the Barksdale crew is selling in tower B, if Barksdales are buying from Prop Joe, the price of drugs in tower B is going to be higher than tower A. A lot of people back then didn't agree with me, so it is nice to see someone who does.

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uoflfan

uoflfan

I don't understand the McNulty sex symbol thing. Throughout the series I was thinking "Damn, I'd have a sex change just to become a pretty boy for Omar" because that man is one sexy gay funny sociopath.

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ToxicUnicorn

ToxicUnicorn

That moment where Ziggy leaves the visiting room after talking to his dad, and is swallowed in the crowd of big dudes in lockup is absolutely devastating.

Love the credit given to James Ransone for his portrayal of Ziggy.  I get the feeling a lot of people were blown away by Chris Bauer's Frank when this season aired, and I agree he was really good, but JR had the much harder part.  Reading about this scene makes me want to watch all of S2 again, just to get back to that point. 

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Rinaldo

Rinaldo

I would say Season 4 is probably the best season and season 5 (although I like it more in retrospect and it has some very redeeming moments) is the weakest.

I think I'd agree with that. My problems (such as they are) with Season 5 are focused in the newspaper office scenes, which I find to be not imagined and fleshed out as richly as the "new worlds" in the previous seasons. (Not the fault of the actors, or in my opinion of having an hour less this season.) But McNulty's new story, which some have objected to, I find a good (if "out there") embodiment of the idea that "the system is broken" that's been the show's theme all along. And it has its consequences. And, fortunately, the final windup is great; the series does "stick the landing."

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Constantinople

Constantinople

I remember years ago debating with people online as to whether or not Stringer giving up the towers was a good idea or not. I always thought it was stupid, because while your drug supply can go up and down, you are never going to get those towers back. Plus if Prop Joe is selling drugs in tower A, but the Barksdale crew is selling in tower B, if Barksdales are buying from Prop Joe, the price of drugs in tower B is going to be higher than tower A. A lot of people back then didn't agree with me, so it is nice to see someone who does.

It was my understanding, perhaps based on nothing, that Proposition Joe wasn't charging Stringer the retail price because Stringer wasn't a retailer buyer.  In effect, Proposition Joe became Stringer's wholesaler, albeit selling to Stringer at a higher price than the Greek sold to Proposition Joe (otherwise, Joe makes no money on the transaction).  Thus, couldn't Stringer sell in the towers at the same retail price as Proposition Joe provided that Stringer takes a smaller profit margin?

 

It's all moot once the towers come down at the start of Season 3, and wouldn't Stringer know about that long before then?  (although Proposition Joe would too).

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Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

It was my understanding, perhaps based on nothing, that Proposition Joe wasn't charging Stringer the retail price because Stringer wasn't a retailer buyer.  In effect, Proposition Joe became Stringer's wholesaler, albeit selling to Stringer at a higher price than the Greek sold to Proposition Joe (otherwise, Joe makes no money on the transaction).  Thus, couldn't Stringer sell in the towers at the same retail price as Proposition Joe provided that Stringer takes a smaller profit margin?

 

It's all moot once the towers come down at the start of Season 3, and wouldn't Stringer know about that long before then?  (although Proposition Joe would too).

You are absolutely right. For Stringer to sell at the same price as Joe, he has to have a smaller profit margin. And Joe has more ability to discount his product to maintain his sales. Maybe the profit margins are high enough that it doesn't matter to Stringer not to make as much as Joe. But your spoiler also seems absolutely right.. 

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DarkRaichu

DarkRaichu

You are absolutely right. For Stringer to sell at the same price as Joe, he has to have a smaller profit margin. And Joe has more ability to discount his product to maintain his sales. Maybe the profit margins are high enough that it doesn't matter to Stringer not to make as much as Joe. But your spoiler also seems absolutely right.. 

Or one can also argue:

Stringer was already planning to get out of "retail" business at that point so in the long run the territory did not really matter.

 

Lol at McNulty sex symbol thing.  It was probably had a lot to do with the actor (Dominic West) as he was getting a lot of "actions" in his new series as well (The Affair)

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Bryce Lynch

Bryce Lynch

I remember years ago debating with people online as to whether or not Stringer giving up the towers was a good idea or not. I always thought it was stupid, because while your drug supply can go up and down, you are never going to get those towers back. Plus if Prop Joe is selling drugs in tower A, but the Barksdale crew is selling in tower B, if Barksdales are buying from Prop Joe, the price of drugs in tower B is going to be higher than tower A. A lot of people back then didn't agree with me, so it is nice to see someone who does.

I don't think Stringer had much choice. His product was so weak that the junkies would travel to buy Prop Joe's good stuff. The prime locations had little value with no decent product to sell.

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Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

I don't think Stringer had much choice. His product was so weak that the junkies would travel to buy Prop Joe's good stuff. The prime locations had little value with no decent product to sell.

That is why my biggest argument is that quality product connections come and go, but if you give up prime locations you will never get them back. Stringer and Joe had no idea how close the Greek was to being arrested, which would have stopped Joe's supply pretty quickly, at least for awhile. And I doubt Joe would be giving up those towers if he didn't have the supply.  Of course as mentioned it was all moot, because the towers were demolished shortly after.

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Bryce Lynch

Bryce Lynch

(edited)

That is why my biggest argument is that quality product connections come and go, but if you give up prime locations you will never get them back. Stringer and Joe had no idea how close the Greek was to being arrested, which would have stopped Joe's supply pretty quickly, at least for awhile. And I doubt Joe would be giving up those towers if he didn't have the supply. Of course as mentioned it was all moot, because the towers were demolished shortly after.

In the world of The Wire finding a connection for quality heroin seemed to be extremely difficult. Avon and Stringer both failed after they lost their connection.

If they didn't make the deal with Prop Joe, they would have lost the towers anyway (all of them) as they would have no income to pay for the muscle to hold them.

Funny, I just realized that Omar did Marlo a big favor by .

robbing the resupply as it gave him an excuse to meet Joe's supplier

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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Zola

Zola

On 13/02/2015 at 2:17 AM, ToxicUnicorn said:

Love the credit given to James Ransone for his portrayal of Ziggy.  I get the feeling a lot of people were blown away by Chris Bauer's Frank when this season aired, and I agree he was really good, but JR had the much harder part.  Reading about this scene makes me want to watch all of S2 again, just to get back to that point. 

JR, was truly excellent in his portrayal of Ziggy.

At first I thought Z was just a mixed up, drugged-up/boozed-up, attention-seeking kid, and was truly irritating beyond belief: more so after the sad demise of his pet duck!

 

But... 

Spoiler

... after he  goes back into the store and guns down "Double G" and an assistant...

 

... you quickly begin to empathise for him; and of course the scene in the prison where he is mixed in with all those big dudes, you just know he is going to go through a living hell with no one there to watch over him and get him out of trouble, again!

Ransone, understood the character perfectly, and gave us believable emotions that didn't feel fake or forced.  

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le bordel chaud

le bordel chaud

I'm currently doing a rewatch of the entire series and just finished Season 2. It was a lot better than I remembered but also much sadder. I had completely forgotten what happened to Ziggy and it was all just so tragic and senseless. And then poor Frank. :(

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Zola

Zola

On 16/06/2018 at 5:40 PM, Victim Noises said:

I'm currently doing a rewatch of the entire series and just finished Season 2. It was a lot better than I remembered but also much sadder. I had completely forgotten what happened to Ziggy and it was all just so tragic and senseless. And then poor Frank. :(

Season 2, is a wonderful season and doesn't really deserve the initial negativity it receives following on from the street-corner drug dealing of season 1. I must admit S2 was a massive shift in direction when I first watched it years ago, thinking it would be a logical progression from S1. But the writers took a chance and focused on a different aspect of Baltimore life that was directly ir or indirectly intertwined with the goings-on from S1.

The more I rewatch S2 the more I really appreciate what the writers tried to achieve.

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Zola

Zola

16 hours ago, MargeGunderson said:

ETA - I dislike Ziggy more this time around. He's pathetic and stupid, but I don't really feel sorry for him. He just keeps being more ridiculous. I do feel sorry for him at the end, but man, he's an idiot.

I thought that about him originally. And there's no escaping the fact he is an idiot pure and simple. But the problem is what to do with a person that idiotic? Frank gave him various jobs on the docks and he messed up on all of them; he wanted something better, something easier, something that would make him rich and famous; he wanted attention too. He knew he was dumb at most things so came up with silly scams, or tried to act like Mr Big when dealing wit the Greek, even though Nick was really in charge.

For me, Ziggy represented youth in general: not willing to put in a hard day's work and just wanting attention, fame and fortune. In some respects he we like Bodie and the other soldiers working street corners - they had no education, didn't want proper jobs, just got buy with selling drugs, make some money and hope to get a promotion to bigger things. Ziggy was over-protected by Frank and Nick despite the arguments. Ziggy knew he would always be in a comfort zone with those two when the shit hit the fan elsewhere. Until things got out of hand of course, and there was nothing Frank could do about it.

I think that is why Ziggy is a tragicomic character - larger than life, wanting to be someone he could never really be. He was the classic Walter Mitty clone.

 

<sorry for the long post>

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AuntiePam

AuntiePam

(edited)
On 7/6/2018 at 7:52 AM, Zola said:

<sorry for the long post>

No need to apologize for a long post.  Now if you'd written it without a paragraph break, then you could apologize. /wink

My take on Ziggy is that he's no worse than anyone else who wants to get ahead without doing the work.  The problem with Ziggy was that his opportunity came with real danger.  The idiot who messes up at Amazon or McDonald's with cockamamie schemes isn't risking his life, just his paycheck.  Ziggy had access to drugs and to fences/buyers for everything that came through the docks -- a criminal's dream, but the stakes were so high. 

He also probably had a disorder of some kind -- he certainly seemed to have trouble concentrating.  "That can's here somewhere!"

Edited by AuntiePam
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Zola

Zola

I guess Ziggy also thought "well, everyone else working on the docks is on the take, so why shouldn't I have mine?" And there is a sense of truth in that: most of the dockworkers were stealing from the cans - Horse-face admitted so to Frank, and Frank wasn't at all surprised or concerned. In fact he probably even encouraged it!

So you can understand why Ziggy wanted some of that action, but not stopping at crates of booze or fancy aftershave; he wanted to step up into the world of leather coats, cars and fancy watches. The docks was like a huge shop at Christmas, and Ziggy wanted his fingers in everything because he felt entitled, given that everyone else was doing much the same under his uncle's watch.

And of course in the wider context, work in the docks was slowly drying up as the economy was slowing down; so for the likes of Nick, who had a family, life was getting hard with little or no money coming in and bills to pay. Everyone was feeling the pinch, which explains why some resorting to stealing; and in Nick/Frank and Ziggy's cases, resorting to being a middleman for drugs!

Desperate times make for desperate measures

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Rinaldo

Rinaldo

(edited)
13 hours ago, Zola said:

And of course in the wider context, work in the docks was slowly drying up as the economy was slowing down

You're right. And, I'd say, not just (or even primarily, in the long run) a matter of a slowing economy: This kind of daily labor was and is going away permanently, never to return. What used to be a reliable, if uninspiring, source of employment for their fathers and grandfathers and on back, won't be there for Ziggy's and Nick's children, and is barely there for them. As is memorably said in the course of this season, "Used to be, we made shit."

Edited by Rinaldo
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Zola

Zola

On 10/07/2018 at 3:53 PM, Rinaldo said:

You're right. And, I'd say, not just (or even primarily, in the long run) a matter of a slowing economy: This kind of daily labor was and is going away permanently, never to return. What used to be a reliable, if uninspiring, source of employment for their fathers and grandfathers and on back, won't be there for Ziggy's and Nick's children, and is barely there for them. As is memorably said in the course of this season, "Used to be, we made shit."

True! Throughout the season there were rumours that more and more dock work might move further up the coast; plus there were plans to build apartments in or around the dock area. And I think in one episode most of the dock workers were invited to a meeting, and they were shown "the future" by some clean-cut suit & tie rep who was trying to sell them the idea that a lot of their work could be automated, thus reducing the head-count.

So whichever way you look at it, the docks and the dock workers, were more or less condemned: death by a thousand cuts. It's no wonder a lot of them tried to steal what they could while they had the work. Which also explain why Frank & Nick did the drugs as a profitable sideline - although Frank cared a lot about the union and his men, and quite often would pump the money he got from the Greek into supporting both - a very altruistic man! Whereas Nick did the drugs purely to support his family's needs.

 

And as for Ziggy - well I don't know if he had the intelligence to think past the short term, but I am guessing that if the docks did eventually close he would have nothing to fall back on! So perhaps he felt he needed to get involved in these get-rich-quick schemes through the Greek and Double G via Nick. He was enterprising in his own right, but he just didn't have the business acumen or the patience to make it work.

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Raja

Raja

On 7/6/2018 at 5:52 AM, Zola said:

I thought that about him originally. And there's no escaping the fact he is an idiot pure and simple. But the problem is what to do with a person that idiotic? Frank gave him various jobs on the docks and he messed up on all of them; he wanted something better, something easier, something that would make him rich and famous; he wanted attention too. He knew he was dumb at most things so came up with silly scams, or tried to act like Mr Big when dealing wit the Greek, even though Nick was really in charge.

For me, Ziggy represented youth in general: not willing to put in a hard day's work and just wanting attention, fame and fortune. In some respects he we like Bodie and the other soldiers working street corners - they had no education, didn't want proper jobs, just got buy with selling drugs, make some money and hope to get a promotion to bigger things. Ziggy was over-protected by Frank and Nick despite the arguments. Ziggy knew he would always be in a comfort zone with those two when the shit hit the fan elsewhere. Until things got out of hand of course, and there was nothing Frank could do about it.

I think that is why Ziggy is a tragicomic character - larger than life, wanting to be someone he could never really be. He was the classic Walter Mitty clone.

 

<sorry for the long post>

Of all the corner boys to compare to Ziggy Bodie isn't on that list for me. There is however the young prince, son of a jailed Barksdale warrior, who shows up a couple of seasons later who fits the mold before he is turned around. Among the cops Ziggy would be the equivalent to Herc.

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Emily Thrace

Emily Thrace

On 2018-06-22 at 8:53 AM, Zola said:

Season 2, is a wonderful season and doesn't really deserve the initial negativity it receives following on from the street-corner drug dealing of season 1. I must admit S2 was a massive shift in direction when I first watched it years ago, thinking it would be a logical progression from S1. But the writers took a chance and focused on a different aspect of Baltimore life that was directly ir or indirectly intertwined with the goings-on from S1.

The more I rewatch S2 the more I really appreciate what the writers tried to achieve.

Yeah season 2 has always been my favorite. It feels like most complete story and comes together really well. I think it was necessary to show how the drugs get into the country and why even McNulty's great vision of arresting the suppliers wouldn't really change anything. I also loved how lived in the Sobotkas and the rest of the guys at the docks felt. The smaller cast probably helps with that.

Rewatching I realized something about Ziggy he was a short skinny kid who grew up in a culture where that was not a good thing. So he coped by being the clown. Especially since he obviously grew up next to Nick. I bet he heard some variation of "Why aren't you/ can't you be more like Nick" more times than he could count. Which is part of what I loved about thier relationship. Ziggy never seemed to resent Nick all that much. It was actually somewhat mature of Ziggy to realize it wasn't Nick's fault.

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