S10.E10: The Hunter Games

[Latverian Diplomat]

I think the point of Claire was mostly another variation on the theme of facing your past mistakes. Cas did, just as Dean did with Cole (I realize Cole wasn't a "mistake" from Dean - I'm just making a general comparison). 

I don't think Claire was a mistake either. IIRC, her father gave up his own life because she was next on the vessel list if he withdrew his consent. Why the rules are what they are, and why it came down to a choice just between Claire and her dad was not up to Cas. And, FWIW, her dad's sacrifice helped save the world. (I kind of wish Cas would mention that).

 

I agree with your larger point that it's good on principle to revisit some of the consequences of previous episodes, but only if they have a good story to tell about it. So far, Claire's story has not been entertaining, insightful, or moving.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Latverian Diplomat

[Aeryn13]

 

I don't think it was ever made clear that transfer meant giving it to Dean and Dean is now the sole owner or if it was just spawned from Cain.

 

In First Born, you can still see it on Cain`s arm after he transfered it to Dean. Which would be a pretty big production blip if they just missed it.

 

However, how Sam would know that, I have no idea. Only the viewers of the episode could see that, not characters. Dean and Crowley were gone and presumably all the attacking demons were killed. Maybe Sam watches the show. Which is more than I can say for the writers apparently who IMO just didn`t even think how their exposition makes no sense.       

[catrox14]

And another thing...WTF is up with Cas saying he can sense longing in someone who he has protected in the past or whatever that shit was about.

 

Okay so if Cas could sense longing/.suffering/need versus needing to hear an actual prayer, then all the time Dean was longing for Cas in Purgatory and all the shit in s4, s5, and s6, makes Cas even a bigger jerk.  It's one thing to ignore Dean's prayers but to ignore Dean's suffering when he KNEW he was suffering,(same with Sam and his suffering in s6)....what a crock of poo. That's a HUGE retcon IMO

 

Gods. The more I think about this episode "logic"  the more irritated I am.

Edited January 21, 2015 by catrox14

[cassandle]

Just ignore the logic and concentrate on Dreamy Dean--IMO that makes everything better :)

[SueB]

Metatron is NEVER useful, I don't know what the point of bringing him in even possibly was. That First Blade thing was total bullshit, and I swear, he didn't even have anything to tell.

Well, at the end he gave up: "Behold, the river will end at the source." And I think that bit was true. And probably the Blade.  So... is the "source" Cain or is the "source" Lucifer?  This is a river of murderous bloodlust I presume.   It COULD be that the "source" is inside Dean's human heart and that this is the source of everyone's desire to kill.  I think we'll see him say this again in a "THEN" segment. 

 

I will say that something I find fun about the Rowena storyline is that I totally get now why Crowley is so weird about keeping his word, lol.

Such an EXCELLENT insight.  I have much to say on Crowley from this and other episodes, so I'll pop 'round the Crowley thread.  But for this thread I WILL say that why Crowley shows his Scottish roots by being called King and having a throne, I think Rowena shows her charlatan roots with the airs she puts on.  A solid gold tea service -- if that doesn't scream nouveau riche I don't know what would.  Between her faux dainty-ness and her language choices, she's definitely all about getting power and money and looking like she deserves it.  Plus "I will not apologize for being a career woman!"  Nearly spit my tea out with that one.  She may be exceptionally transparent but she's also VERY quick on her feet.  The way she pulled that story out of her ass about ..what's his name...Santa Demon... pretty quick thinker. 

So yes, Rowena's presence is an excellent insight into the character of Crowley on many many levels.

 

 

Dean was a cat. You know, the being that has an "owner" insofar that there is a poor schmuck believing themselves to be a cat owner. Whereas the cat itself can be agreeable within certain parameters but mostly just seems to think "ah, there you are, servant who opens my food cans".

I see you understand cats well Aeryn!

 

 

 

Okay so if Cas could sense longing/.suffering/need versus needing to hear an actual prayer, then all the time Dean was longing for Cas in Purgatory and all the shit in s4, s5, and s6, makes Cas even a bigger jerk.  It's one thing to ignore Dean's prayers but to ignore Dean's suffering when he KNEW he was suffering,(same with Sam and his suffering in s6)....what a crock of poo. That's a HUGE retcon IMO

OR, it could explain why Cas put up with Dean's sense of entitlement in S6.  Maybe he understood Dean's longing for Cas' companionship even if he didn't verbalize it.  I don't mind the retcon at all. 

 

Other bits noticed/was delighted about on rewatch:

- Delighted: "But I'm YOUR dickwad".  Hee.  Curstis Armstrong is a treasure.  He is the single most pathetic evil weasel the show has had.  He's like the definition of the guy you love to hate.  Well acted Mr Armstrong.

- Delighted: I saw it the first time but didn't mention -- I love how Dean was having zero of Booger's bullshit.  It was like he was HOPING Metatron would start to hold out just so he could get his payback.  Metatron was pretty stupid to think that he had any leverage over Dean at this time. 

- Noticed: The opening montage gets much better on re-watch.  First time I was sort of stumped about what the song was so I was distracted.  Listening to it on youtube to really hear the lyrics, the second viewing was really enjoyable.  They are really good at making those montages.  Kudos to whomever did that.

[catrox14]

 

s6)....what a crock of poo. That's a HUGE retcon IMO

OR, it could explain why Cas put up with Dean's sense of entitlement in S6.  Maybe he understood Dean's longing for Cas' companionship even if he didn't verbalize it.  I don't mind the retcon at all.

 

Taking this to the all seasons thread...

 

 

He's like the definition of the guy you love to hate.  Well acted Mr Armstrong.

 

I wish I could love to hate Metatron...like I used to love to hate Crowley.   But I just full on hate Metatron and want him dead and gone forever. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by catrox14

[JayeEmm]

I liked Rowena in previous episodes. This one, she started to grate on me. I'm firmly in the 'can't imagine Crowley's falling for that' camp - I mean, I can see he might have unresolved mommy issues, but if she left him when he was 8, it'd be abandoment issues, not immediately believing every word she says because she mentally tortured him for a lifetime issues.  He'd better have some sort of long game going on here, because if he's just really that easily manipulated by super OTT acting - lame.  I like my Crowley smart.

 

Sort of the same thing with Claire as Rowena - I didn't mind her in the last episode, this time I wasn't particularly interested in revisiting her teen angst. Got it the last time around. Good luck with the hitchhiking, what could possibly go wrong?

 

Am interested to see what 'many steps' they have to take to get rid of the MoC (if that wasn't just Metatron being full of shit). Step 1. Find Cain?

 

 

Seriously.  One of their convention is coming to my city and I impulsively bought a ticket to have my picture taken with JA.  Now the closer that date comes the more I'm regretting it because I turn into squeeing fangirl when he's on the TV, how will I handle it in person?  I just keep reminding myself JA is not the same person as Dean.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been there and hugged that, and I'm sorry (but not really sorry) to say, in person it's no different.  Standing in the photo op line with a bunch of other people who were all staring at him from a distance in awed silence, the woman keeping the line in order said "It's like looking at the sun, isn't it?"  Yep. Like looking at the fucking sun.  And although I mentally know he's tall (I'm 5'2"), since he's next to Gigantor half the time you don't really realize HOW tall and broad shouldered and - yeah. But he was also very nice and friendly and huggy so - no worries! 

[cassandle]

I wish I could love to hate Metatron...like I used to love to hate Crowley.   But I just full on hate Metatron and want him dead and gone forever. 

 

 

I'm worried he's going to come back too often.  I can tolerate him if he's used sparingly and I'm okay with him being tortured by Dean (because: awesome).  But if he busts out of heaven (which I'm dreading and totally thought was going to happen last night) and starts running amok again...I will not be happy.  Small doses please.

 

I have been there and hugged that, and I'm sorry (but not really sorry) to say, in person it's no different.  Standing in the photo op line with a bunch of other people who were all staring at him from a distance in awed silence, the woman keeping the line in order said "It's like looking at the sun, isn't it?"  Yep. Like looking at the fucking sun.  And although I mentally know he's tall (I'm 5'2"), since he's next to Gigantor half the time you don't really realize HOW tall and broad shouldered and - yeah. But he was also very nice and friendly and huggy so - no worries! 

 

You have no idea how much I'm blushing right now just reading that :)  My coworkers are going to figure out I'm not really working if I don't compose myself quickly.

[AwesomO4000]

I was kind of bugged about Sam's pep talk to Dean. How much more effective would it have been for Sam to bring up his own past issues with demon blood and how he understands better than anyone and that is why he will help Dean now and why he's encouraging Dean to find some strength within himself and to remind Dean that he is not here to judge Dean but love him and help him deal with this.  And maybe even sneak in a little bit of an apology for not really paying better attention the first 3 months he had it. And I feel like poor Jared just can't quite get to that particular level of empathy which is weird because he's so empathetic with strangers...and even in his comments about Randy...which I can't EVEN with Cas and Sam re their defense of that disgusting person.

 

just sayin that was quite the missed thing to remind the audience that they know that we know these boys past and that should inform how Dean and Sam deal with this NOW. 

 

I have two general theories on this - with added variations and comments (because hey, it's what I do). The first is the Castiel denial theory - which I don't think generally applies to Sam so much, but I'll mention it anyway. I had the same complaint you have here about that Castiel and Sam scene in "I Believe the Children..." when Cas was giving the "you didn't" (make the right decision) speech. I was thinking "neither did you Cas and now would be the perfect time to fess up to that, because it's a perfect example for your argument," but nope, nothing. But Castiel was kinda in denial mode through some of season 5 - see "My Bloody Valentine," so perhaps "in denial" makes even more sense to describe this than just actual denial.

 

Theory - and maybe partial fanwank - the second: Sam doesn't see the situations as exactly equivalent (and maybe the writers don't? Okay I'm giving them maybe undo credit?) and so is avoiding certain triggers for Dean, because he actually does know Dean and how Dean might jump to conclusions and/or hates being reminded of stuff he wants to deny. I remember that despite the physical blood addiction issue and that Dean likes to go with the "but my brother was just an addict" self-denial excuse, Sam generally doesn't. Sam admits that it is something inside him and a fault that he has. And maybe this is not the message he wants Dean to get and/or doesn't want to think of the situation as the same... i.e. Sam doesn't want to see or imply that Dean has a problem in himself - Sam wants to blame it all on the mark. So his bringing up his own struggles and issues may end up being more of a confusing issue than helpful for multiple reasons. One being that we know that Dean often resists Sam's attempts to sympathize and "share," and there are many ways for it to go wrong trying to get to complicated and touchy-feely.

 

"I know how you feel, Dean" or "I understand, Dean" could be a big, old, well-worn trap. Dean might interpret Sam's sympathizing attempts to mean that he, Dean, can't overcome the mark, since Sam didn't really overcome the blood - like using it in small doses and controlling it - he just had to stay away from it, and Dean can't exactly free himself from the mark at the moment. And any attempt by Sam to say "but just because I couldn't do it, doesn't mean you can't, Dean" would likely be met with skepticism, because: Dean self-esteem issues... so maybe best not to touch that one at all and remain with the" let's focus on Dean" strategy. Conversely "I understand, Dean" could also lead to "Do you really, Sam?" with a blow up from Dean about how could Sam possibly understand, he (Dean) can't just detox or get a magic reset like Sam got, and Sam didn't go around killing people *, etc etc. "This has nothing to do with and/or is anything like you, Sam." Of course, this is less likely than the scenario above, but I can see where Sam might be concerned about Dean's reactions right now and triggering any unstable Dean behavior with less than calming or encouraging thoughts... and Sam's demon blood issue is not on Dean's list of things he wants to think about... pretty much the opposite.

 

In other words, Sam bringing up his own issues in an attempt to sympathize/relate would be very much a big brother thing to do, and Dean is generally going to resist Sam doing that kind of thing as it's not in the natural order of their relationship, nor is it likely to work on Dean. However, an "I just want my brother back" strategy - in this case, an "I know my big brother can do it" denial variation - is more likely to work on Dean, in my opinion, because when he's at a loss for what else to do, Sam tugging those little brother role strings is all he knows that works. Role reversal generally doesn't - see season 2 and season 7 for examples where Sam tried that tactic and got nowhere and/or strong resistance. The only remote success he had was in season 5, and that took a bunch of patience on Sam's part for it to actually work with a bunch of little brother logic (as in I know Dean will make the right decision) thrown in for good measure. But if I'm remembering correctly, generally Sam trying to big brother Dean goes over like a lead balloon.

 

Okay that was long and maybe didn't make sense, but it's the only fanwank I got.

 

* Dean doesn't know about the nurse.

[patty1h]

Did I forget a scene where it was explained that someone found a way to difuse an angel’s power? I don’t understand why Metatron is powerless in a devil’s trap in the bunker.

 

I comprehend that he would have a problem getting out of the cell in Heaven’s prison – it was built by other angels who know what needed to keep their charges inside. Was it ever said that the Winchesters or MOL had found a way to “cage” an angel?

[catrox14]

I have two general theories on this - with added variations and comments (because hey, it's what I do). The first is the Castiel denial theory - which I don't think generally applies to Sam so much, but I'll mention it anyway. I had the same complaint you have here about that Castiel and Sam scene in "I Believe the Children..." when Cas was giving the "you didn't" (make the right decision) speech. I was thinking "neither did you Cas and now would be the perfect time to fess up to that, because it's a perfect example for your argument," but nope, nothing. But Castiel was kinda in denial mode through some of season 5 - see "My Bloody Valentine," so perhaps "in denial" makes even more sense to describe this than just actual denial.

 

Theory - and maybe partial fanwank - the second: Sam doesn't see the situations as exactly equivalent (and maybe the writers don't? Okay I'm giving them maybe undo credit?) and so is avoiding certain triggers for Dean, because he actually does know Dean and how Dean might jump to conclusions and/or hates being reminded of stuff he wants to deny. I remember that despite the physical blood addiction issue and that Dean likes to go with the "but my brother was just an addict" self-denial excuse, Sam generally doesn't. Sam admits that it is something inside him and a fault that he has. And maybe this is not the message he wants Dean to get and/or doesn't want to think of the situation as the same... i.e. Sam doesn't want to see or imply that Dean has a problem in himself - Sam wants to blame it all on the mark. So his bringing up his own struggles and issues may end up being more of a confusing issue than helpful for multiple reasons. One being that we know that Dean often resists Sam's attempts to sympathize and "share," and there are many ways for it to go wrong trying to get to complicated and touchy-feely.

 

"I know how you feel, Dean" or "I understand, Dean" could be a big, old, well-worn trap. Dean might interpret Sam's sympathizing attempts to mean that he, Dean, can't overcome the mark, since Sam didn't really overcome the blood - like using it in small doses and controlling it - he just had to stay away from it, and Dean can't exactly free himself from the mark at the moment. And any attempt by Sam to say "but just because I couldn't do it, doesn't mean you can't, Dean" would likely be met with skepticism, because: Dean self-esteem issues... so maybe best not to touch that one at all and remain with the" let's focus on Dean" strategy. Conversely "I understand, Dean" could also lead to "Do you really, Sam?" with a blow up from Dean about how could Sam possibly understand, he (Dean) can't just detox or get a magic reset like Sam got, and Sam didn't go around killing people *, etc etc. "This has nothing to do with and/or is anything like you, Sam." Of course, this is less likely than the scenario above, but I can see where Sam might be concerned about Dean's reactions right now and triggering any unstable Dean behavior with less than calming or encouraging thoughts... and Sam's demon blood issue is not on Dean's list of things he wants to think about... pretty much the opposite.

 

In other words, Sam bringing up his own issues in an attempt to sympathize/relate would be very much a big brother thing to do, and Dean is generally going to resist Sam doing that kind of thing as it's not in the natural order of their relationship, nor is it likely to work on Dean. However, an "I just want my brother back" strategy - in this case, an "I know my big brother can do it" denial variation - is more likely to work on Dean, in my opinion, because when he's at a loss for what else to do, Sam tugging those little brother role strings is all he knows that works. Role reversal generally doesn't - see season 2 and season 7 for examples where Sam tried that tactic and got nowhere and/or strong resistance. The only remote success he had was in season 5, and that took a bunch of patience on Sam's part for it to actually work with a bunch of little brother logic (as in I know Dean will make the right decision) thrown in for good measure. But if I'm remembering correctly, generally Sam trying to big brother Dean goes over like a lead balloon.

 

Okay that was long and maybe didn't make sense, but it's the only fanwank I got.

 

* Dean doesn't know about the nurse.

 

I could buy that argument and that maybe that is Sam's perspective but I am just frustrated because the throughout this entire MoC ark, they have NEVER mentioned Sam's addiction.

 

I dunno if I can buy that Sam would be giving Dean's psychology that much thought.  And I think at this point, considering Sam de-demoned!Dean against his will and Dean acknowledged that the people that loved him brought him back, I think Dean would be accepting of hearing Sam say, "Dean, I struggled with the demon blood thing but you helped me as best you could and I will help you as best as I can. That you do have enough strength to get through this". I guess to me if you put that scene in the hands of a good writer (Raelle Tucker WHERE ARE YOU) or even Ben Edlund who nails dialogue IMO and Dean's characterization more than most, I think Dean would reluctantly understand Sam's viewpoint but believe that Sam is legit trying to help.  I don't think Dean would take it as a measure of his inability to control something or think that Sam is saying Dean is weak at all. 

 

I guess what I'm saying is that there has been enough stuff gone on with Sam if the show would just at least acknowledge from Sam's mouth even if not to Dean's ears, maybe to Cas or even Jody or hell even Crowley....a damn thought bubble over his head....something to let me know that the show hasn't forgotten it. 

[rue721]

I'm not seeing why Sam would want to bring up the blood addiction thing, or why they would want to talk about it? When Dean is in trouble, I would think that the *last* thing Sam would want to do is to be like, "Hey, remember that time when I was a TOTAL fuckup? This is sort of like that!"

 

It's kind of a harsh/call-out thing to say to Dean right as he's in the thick of the MoC trouble. I think it would be salt in the wound for Sam to be like, "your bad decision to get the MoC was sort of like my bad decision to drink demon blood, huh?!"

 

And right now Sam is sort of Dean's only hope (aside from Cas, I guess) and the person who actually did save him when he became a demon. So I doubt that Sam would want to bring up his own frailties, since that seems like it would be the opposite of comforting to either himself or to Dean?

 

I agree that the demon blood thing and the MoC are pretty similar, I think the guys even both took them on for similar reasons -- lonely and fallen in with the wrong crowd, needed an extra power boost, etc. But with the MoC fallout going on right now, it seems like just the worst possible time to bring it up. Maybe Cas would, because he can be such an insensitive ass. But I can't imagine that going well, either.

[AwesomO4000]

Oh, I understand your frustration. The writers seem to love to forget stuff sometimes. Other times they won't let it go.

 

Edited: because I decided this sounded more ranty than it needed to be...

 

Long story now short, I think that the writers sometimes like to forget stuff like this depending on who the story is about at the time. My favorite being that in season 8, somehow Dean supposedly considered Sam becoming soulless to be something Sam would have to confess about - which makes about as much sense as a three dollar bill. I'm thinking maybe sometimes the writers forget who did what and when.

 

I think I'll stick with my fanwank, because at least that's giving Sam some intelligence/strategy.

 

Now the roles are reversed and Snow and Snowier don`t even get a whiff of the blame heaped on Dean back then with both hands.

 

It might be redundant to say that I disagree, but I do. That whole thing with Lester was done mostly to make sure that Sam would not be "Snow" (and that he would be at least as much at fault as Dean) and then they put big neon pointy signs at it just in case we missed it. Especially since that didn't even turn out to be relevant to finding Dean that I can remember. Sam ended up finding him a different way.

 

The rest ("back then") is old arguments to which I think there is just as much evidence to the contrary and probably not worth covering again.

Edited January 21, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

I think the show could find a way to bring it up regardless. Because right now the vibe is kinda "Dean is on a dark path and Sam and Cas are purer than the driven snow". It`s like they never, ever, ever had their own dark paths as far as the writers are concerned. Yet I distinctly remember that not only did they but when they did, the writing took great pains to give at least half if not all the responsibility for it to Dean as well. For reasons and stuff. 

 

Now the roles are reversed and Snow and Snowier don`t even get a whiff of the blame heaped on Dean back then with both hands. They also don`t get even remotely blamed for not being supportive enough or in the right way or the myriad of ways Dean apparently didn`t do a good enough job in their arcs. And yet, I think they have been atrocious at this caretaking business for the most part. 

 

If everybody had their old roles here - Dean the mere support and either Cas or Sam with the big story - I think the writing would be totally different. We would get neverending reminders on why Dean somehow facilitated the bad things Cas and/or Sam did AND how he fell down in the support role. It`s IMO Dean and Dean only the writers wouldn`t even think to pull the kid gloves out for. In a way it makes him the stronger character for me but on the other hand I also feel very ranty about it.

[catrox14]

I'm not seeing why Sam would want to bring up the blood addiction thing, or why they would want to talk about it? When Dean is in trouble, I would think that the *last* thing Sam would want to do is to be like, "Hey, remember that time when I was a TOTAL fuckup? This is sort of like that!"

It's kind of a harsh/call-out thing to say to Dean right as he's in the thick of the MoC trouble. I think it would be salt in the wound for Sam to be like, "your bad decision to get the MoC was sort of like my bad decision to drink demon blood, huh?!"

And right now Sam is sort of Dean's only hope (aside from Cas, I guess) and the person who actually did save him when he became a demon. So I doubt that Sam would want to bring up his own frailties, since that seems like it would be the opposite of comforting to either himself or to Dean?

I agree that the demon blood thing and the MoC are pretty similar, I think the guys even both took them on for similar reasons -- lonely and fallen in with the wrong crowd, needed an extra power boost, etc. But with the MoC fallout going on right now, it seems like just the worst possible time to bring it up. Maybe Cas would, because he can be such an insensitive ass. But I can't imagine that going well, either.

I think I must not be explaining myself well if it's being interpreted as calling out Sam or a punishment of Sam. I don't understand how Sam saying to Dean that he understands better than anyone how difficult it is to resist those things that drive you to do something desperate is calling out Sam. To me it's like Sam would be Deans sponsor. He would be using his experience with a supernatural addiction and some questionable choices that to relate to Dean. It doesn't have to be an entire recitaion of Sams sins or even brought up again. Seriously one bit of dialogue wherein Sam says something like "Dean, we both know what I struggled with in the past. The choices I made. And I know how hard this will be. But together we will find a solution". Newbies might be confused and think whoa, what did Sam do and then they go and watch the previous 9 seasons to figure it out.

To me that is compassionate and empathetic, non-judgmental and not shifting the focus from Dean to Sam. It is Sam telling Dean he is not alone.

Instead the writers give us Sam saying "we've both killed because we had to.. but this is..." which implies that Dean killing 5 humans at one time under the influence of the Mark is worse than Sam killing one nurse under the influence of demon blood. Or that Deans addiction is worse than Sams.

Edited January 21, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

I think I must not be explaining myself well if it's being interpreted as calling out Sam or a punishment of Sam.

 

Wait, I meant that it would be like Sam calling out *Dean* for making such a terrible decision as to get the MoC. Which was a terrible decision, as it turns out, very similarly to how Sam deciding to drink demon blood was a terrible decision. In a Spock kind of pure-logic sense it's probably fair for Sam to even go on at length about how terrible of a decision getting the MoC was if he feels like it, since Dean sure did that with the demon blood. BUT it just seems like a kind of unnecessarily harsh thing for Sam to do and I can't really imagine him doing it right now. Talk about kicking a man when he's down.

 

Sam would have to be *such* an ass to clap Dean on the back and go, "yeah, this MoC fuckup is right up there with the time I started sleeping with a demon, drinking her blood, and basically started the Apocalypse." If someone's life and THE ENTIRE WORLD were nearly destroyed by his own terrible mistake and then that person had been tortured for eleventy zillion years because of it, too, etc etc etc, his brother probably isn't really going to want to hear about how similar this mistake he made not-that-long-ago is to that? It's not that it wouldn't be a fair thing to bring up, it just seems like the most horrifying/frightening framing for the MoC possible.

 

(ETA:  plus, I don't think either of them would want to be reminded of basically the biggest screw up of Sam's entire life the same day that the pressure gets turned up on Sam because even Dean isn't pretending anymore that he's not in terrible trouble and needs Sam's help. Sam bringing up his blood addiction in that context makes me of something like:  you're about to be the driver on a long road trip with a friend, and as the friend is getting in the car, you remind her of that time you caused that humongous accident that nearly killed everyone. I mean, everyone makes mistakes and I'm not trying to get on anybody's case about it, but this is probably NOT a good time to bring up THAT particular mistake, y'know?)

 

OK, though -- I hear what you're saying about Sam being like, "we got through this kind of thing before with the blood addiction, we can save you like we saved me," etc, and if that's more the kind of conversation you're envisioning, then I actually do agree with you. I think that a conversation like that would have been a much more powerful and lovely scene than the one we got of Sam saying that Dean might have the Mark forever but he's tough enough to take it. Not that that scene was terrible, but it wasn't exactly touching imo. YMMV.

 

Of course, I would also have been up for a big hug between the brothers because I am a total sap and love when they're nice to each other. That's probably not where their mood was at, though? Hm. Ignoring the question of whether the writers are strong enough to be able to write a scene like that and hit the right notes, keep it in character, etc -- do you think that a conversation/heart-to-heart like that would be possible for Sam and Dean to have right now? Honestly asking, I'm not sure.

Edited January 21, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

I think that kind of heart to heart would be possible since Dean after being de-demoned said the word "love" out loud and to another person about about Sam and Cas. "I was pulled back by the people that love me".  I cannot remember a time when Dean ever used that word straight up like that other that his trip down memory lane in Heaven when his 4 year old Dean said "It’s okay, Mom. Dad still loves you. I love you, too. I’ll never leave you."  

 

Then in the CBGB story, he doesn't say the words but when Cas asks if he loved his father, Dean says "with everything I had". I believe that Dean is in a place right now where he would be open to that kind of conversation if it's coming from a place of caring and not judgment.

 

Dean knows he screwed up royally this time. The biggest screwup since trading his soul for Sam's and starting the Apocalpyse. So to me Dean would agree that he screwed up but Sam doesn't have to say that. I would just like to see Sam be empathetic to Dean's plight like he seemed to be with all the victims of monsters over the years.vs just problem solving,

Edited January 21, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

My previous semi-rant - now deleted for being kinda ranty - mentioned that that would be a good use of Sam's bad decisions and a way to maybe make his character look sympathetic. Instead we usually get "Sam hit a dog" (which I forgave the last time because I loved the episode and hoped that it was also poking fun at them as much as Sam.) I guess making fun of or pointing out Sam's shortcomings and bad decisions is more fun for them?

 

Hence my need to fanwank.

 

Instead the writers give us Sam saying "we've both killed because we had to.. but this is..." which implies that Dean killing 5 humans at one time under the influence of the Mark is worse than Sam killing one nurse under the influence of demon blood. Or that Deans addiction is worse than Sams.

 

But it kinda-sorta is, isn't it? At least in terms of solving it. Sam's blood addiction could be solved by Sam not drinking demon blood. Dean can't just go "okay I don't want the mark anymore" and it's gone. So in that respect, Dean's addiction is worse. It doesn't necessarily mean that what Dean did in terms of killing the bad guys is worse - although the manner in which he did it is kind of scary, since it seemed somewhat rage-kill, meaning if Dean "goes off" (in the bomb sense) he maybe can't be easily reasoned with.

 

So there are many and complex ways to look at it. Sam chose to continue in his addiction - so that would seem to suggest more blame. Dean would not be addicted if he had the choice - suggesting less blame. But - and this is a big but, in my opinion - Dean is potentially more dangerous than addicted Sam, because his potential for damage is greater. Because Dean might "go off", this lends a bit more unpredictability and lack of control to the equation. So in that sense Sam is correct in that "we've both killed because we had to" (or thought we had to - the nurse), but the mark doesn't want Dean to kill just because he has to but because the mark wants to kill - period. So the "but this is..." with the "different" implied, is in my opinion, technically correct. It's not necessarily assigning more blame to Dean, because Dean would get rid of the mark if he could. It just is different, because the mark makes it so.

 

And so technically I think it does make Dean's "addiction" worse than Sam's, because there is no easy fix and it's less predictable. Blame has nothing to do with it for me.

 

 

As an aside, I finally saw the promo or whatever it was with Dean being a "killer" and I thought that I saw that it said "Supernatural" born killer. Which is an entirely different thing, in my opinion. In that Dean wouldn't really be a killer at all if not for the supernatural influence - the mark. Big difference from natural born killer, in my opinion.

[catrox14]

 

But it kinda-sorta is, isn't it? At least in terms of solving it. Sam's blood addiction could be solved by Sam not drinking demon blood. Dean can't just go "okay I don't want the mark anymore" and it's gone. So in that respect, Dean's addiction is worse. It doesn't necessarily mean that what Dean did in terms of killing the bad guys is worse - although the manner in which he did it is kind of scary, since it seemed somewhat rage-kill, meaning if Dean "goes off" (in the bomb sense) he maybe can't be easily reasoned with.

 

It's worse from the addiction point like meth is harder to kick than heroin (as a really terrible analogy) and worse to figure out out how to solve it. But that is not what I'm referring to .

 

I'm talking about the morality of Dean's behavior which is what IMO was being discussed in that conversation between Sam and Cas prior to Dean interrupting.

 

Cas said "Whatever Randy did,  he didn't deserve..."to which Sam replies "Oh I know..I know, I hear you. Dean has HAD to kill before...we both did...but that was....." . To me that was implying that Sam (and Cas)thinks Dean absolutely did NOT need to  and SHOULD not have killed those people as if Sam had never done the same. Sam did NOT need to  and SHOULD not have killed the nurse either. To me it was the tone of the conversation, the acting etc that left me coming away with that as being a judgment on Dean's morality when Sam's morality is not that much better nor was Cas'. 

[Pete Martell]

And another thing...WTF is up with Cas saying he can sense longing in someone who he has protected in the past or whatever that shit was about.

 

Okay so if Cas could sense longing/.suffering/need versus needing to hear an actual prayer, then all the time Dean was longing for Cas in Purgatory and all the shit in s4, s5, and s6, makes Cas even a bigger jerk.  It's one thing to ignore Dean's prayers but to ignore Dean's suffering when he KNEW he was suffering,(same with Sam and his suffering in s6)....what a crock of poo. That's a HUGE retcon IMO

 

Gods. The more I think about this episode "logic"  the more irritated I am.

 

Cas wasn't ignoring Dean because he was being a jerk. Cas was ignoring Dean because he (Cas) was mentally ill as well as somewhat suicidal, and he blamed himself for the destruction of everything. He needed to be alone to pay penance for the terrible things he'd done (and he'd done some terrible things). To me this is no more selfish than any other character who can't help someone else for a while due to their own pain.

[catrox14]

Cas wasn't ignoring Dean because he was being a jerk. Cas was ignoring Dean because he (Cas) was mentally ill as well as somewhat suicidal, and he blamed himself for the destruction of everything. He needed to be alone to pay penance for the terrible things he'd done (and he'd done some terrible things). To me this is no more selfish than any other character who can't help someone else for a while due to their own pain.

 

That doesn't explain every other time Cas ignored Dean or Sam's suffering and need in s6. 

[Pete Martell]

I think the show could find a way to bring it up regardless. Because right now the vibe is kinda "Dean is on a dark path and Sam and Cas are purer than the driven snow". It`s like they never, ever, ever had their own dark paths as far as the writers are concerned. Yet I distinctly remember that not only did they but when they did, the writing took great pains to give at least half if not all the responsibility for it to Dean as well. For reasons and stuff. 

 

Now the roles are reversed and Snow and Snowier don`t even get a whiff of the blame heaped on Dean back then with both hands. They also don`t get even remotely blamed for not being supportive enough or in the right way or the myriad of ways Dean apparently didn`t do a good enough job in their arcs. And yet, I think they have been atrocious at this caretaking business for the most part. 

 

I think the show did put some blame on Sam. He seemed to have clear regrets over some of what he said post-possession, and his own actions in getting to Demon Dean were judged as dark by TPTB (to the point of asking "who is the real monster").

 

They haven't gone out of their way to have Sam say, "Well, I did this and that, so who am I to judge," but I don't see him as coming from a judgmental place. 

 

If we compare what happened in this episode (bringing Metatron in, getting little to nothing out of him, nearly killing him and causing yet more unrest in Heaven) to previous seasons, I felt like there was much less judgment on Dean compared to how, say, I think Bobby would have reacted.

That doesn't explain every other time Cas ignored Dean or Sam's suffering and need in s6. 

 

Cas was doing what he thought was right (protecting them) in season 6. He was also increasingly power-hungry and busy elsewhere.

[supposebly]

The good: Sam bringing up Cain, actually that whole scene. Metatron and Dean. I really hope something comes out of "the river ends at the source"

 

The odd: Crowley's Rowena-induced dream had some really bad direction. I believe it would have been better if this had been his dream and his direction. At least that's how I explain it.

 

The Bad: Castiel: Acting and dialog was terrible in the scene when he comes in and goes "I don't mean to be an alarmist.....very un-Cas like.

 

The really boring and stupid part:

I'm not going to believe that the king of hell has mommy issues after spending the last 300 years in hell, running a profitable cross-roads business and then is good enough to step in and become king. Unless this is the aftermath of being human for a little while. Also, it makes him look stupid and from all I know, he is definitely not. Why does he even keep her around? What possible reason could he have?

 

Why did he tell the Winchesters where his bones are? Has he forgotten that they are after all his enemies? Do we need Crowley to be stupid so there will be drama down the line? Ugh.

 

How would Guthrie even know about Crowley getting the blade? How would he know where it is unless Crowley was stupid enough to tell him? Rowena's story had so many holes in it while Guthrie was lying there on the ground with the blade. And really Crowley, you believe in visions now?

 

Why does Rowena stick around? Does she want to become queen witch of hell? So, so lame.

 

I desperately hope they won't make Crowley stupid. Because I would consider that character assassination.

 

Cas should have "opened" that door right away instead of letting Sam try to break it down which was not going to happen and Sam would know that. Cheap drama to make us more tense. Unsuccessfully.

 

I'm not sure why they would even go along with the "first step". That basically screamed that there would be many many more steps.

 

So, Claire tells some strangers about how people around her kill other people. How does that not set of alarm bells off for any kind of person, murderous douchebag or not? I actually thought they were demons until I saw the baseball bats.

 

And then she keeps hitch-hiking. At least she lost half of the 5 pounds of eyeliner in the end. That usually means a TV character is ok.

 

Metatron: Just killl him already. I hate the guy and I applaud Curtis Armstrong for creating such a despicable character. Why do the angels care whether he is alive?

 

The awesome: Using ELO's Long Black Road for "The Road So Far".

 

Overall, mostly boring and nonsensical.

Edited January 22, 2015 by supposebly

[Pete Martell]

The really boring and stupid part:

I'm not going to believe that the king of hell has mommy issues after spending the last 300 years in hell, running a profitable cross-roads business and then is good enough to step in and become king. Unless this is the aftermath of being human for a little while. Also, it makes him look stupid and from all I know, he is definitely not. Why does he even keep her around? What possible reason could he have?

 

Why did he tell the Winchesters where his bones are? Has he forgotten that they are after all his enemies? Do we need Crowley to be stupid so there will be drama down the line? Ugh.

 

How would Guthrie even know about Crowley getting the blade? How would he know where it is unless Crowley was stupid enough to tell him? Rowena's story had so many holes in it while Guthrie was lying there on the ground with the blade. And really Crowley, you believe in visions now?

 

Why does Rowena stick around? Does she want to become queen witch of hell? So, so lame.

 

I desperately hope they won't make Crowley stupid. Because I would consider that character assassination.

 

Cas should have "opened" that door right away instead of letting Sam try to break it down which was not going to happen and Sam would know that. Cheap drama to make us more tense. Unsuccessfully.

 

Crowley's intelligence has always depended on the plot at the time. Remember when he personally went to see Dean and Sam to get the demon tablet from them, instead of sending an underling? They quickly captured him and this started a chain of events that led him to nearly lose everything. 

 

Crowley has repeatedly been vulnerable to emotional weakness, even when he was a full demon. He was too fond of Cas and the ego of corrupting an angel to realize that Cas was planning to double-cross him. In more recent times, post-human blood, he let himself become too emotionally dependent on Demon Dean, to the point of neglecting Hell. Now he's all alone again, with only the mother who abandoned him and who was on his mind even many centuries later (as he mentioned her in season 8, in a somewhat proud manner).

 

I think he probably just assumed Guthrie had been spying on him.

 

Suspense aside (and it actually did work for me), I'd say Sam really didn't want Cas to have to use up his grace unless they had no choice. The way Cas reacted afterward makes me think it did take a significant toll on him.

 

As for the bones, if they were even his real bones, I think he probably knows Dean and Sam don't have any particular desire to go after him (if they did they have had many opportunities to do so).

So, Claire tells some strangers about how people around her kill other people. How does that not set of alarm bells off for any kind of person, murderous douchebag or not? I actually thought they were demons until I saw the baseball bats.

 

Metatron: Just killl him already. I hate the guy and I applaud Curtis Armstrong for creating such a despicable character. Why do the angels care whether he is alive?

 

I think the angels keep him alive as some type of "turn the other cheek" message or something. 

 

The murderous couple were just ridiculous, pathetically written characters. Buckner and Ross-Lemming didn't even try. They had no characterization, no motivation - they just showed up and wanted to kill people.

[SueB]

Did I forget a scene where it was explained that someone found a way to difuse an angel’s power? I don’t understand why Metatron is powerless in a devil’s trap in the bunker.

 

I comprehend that he would have a problem getting out of the cell in Heaven’s prison – it was built by other angels who know what needed to keep their charges inside. Was it ever said that the Winchesters or MOL had found a way to “cage” an angel?

They've never been explicit about it but they've shown Angel sigils trapping Angels and they've used these handcuffs on Angels before (Gadreel).  So... we are left to speculate that Angel sigils in the cuffs (like the demon cuffs) are what they use. 

[ItsABear]

 

I think the angels keep him alive as some type of "turn the other cheek" message or something.

 

I figured as the scribe of God, the Angels were keeping him alive as hoping he'd eventually cooperate so they could undo his spell that ejected them all from Heaven in the first place.  Just my own opinion.

 

I wish they'd had cast a better actress as Claire.  If they had, I'd find that story so much more enjoyable.  I find the idea of it really intriguing, and the actual story isn't bad, but the actress is so bad that I think that is why I don't like it.  The original actress was very good in the one episode she was in.  I wonder if she isn't available or not the age they were going for or something.  

 

Is it me or is Crowley's Hell dull?  I miss Crowley's banter with Sam & Dean, and even with Castiel.   I wish he's interact more with them.  The little bit we got in this episode made me miss it all the more.

[Pete Martell]

I don't think Claire was a mistake either. IIRC, her father gave up his own life because she was next on the vessel list if he withdrew his consent. Why the rules are what they are, and why it came down to a choice just between Claire and her dad was not up to Cas. And, FWIW, her dad's sacrifice helped save the world. (I kind of wish Cas would mention that).

 

I agree with your larger point that it's good on principle to revisit some of the consequences of previous episodes, but only if they have a good story to tell about it. So far, Claire's story has not been entertaining, insightful, or moving.

 

I think the whole thing was a mistake, because she was totally forgotten by Cas even though he had a responsibility to Jimmy. Cas was very busy over those years, obviously, but she never crossed his mind until Hannah brought up vessels. Her life was ruined by the angels, and Cas going back to face this helped round off the character for me, even if I would have changed a few things in the story (if she was going to parallel Dean so much I wish they'd had a substantive scene together, and I also they'd had one last strong scene with Cas before she left). Ultimately for me it worked in introducing her and also giving Dean and Cas something to do, but I can see where someone might disagree.  

I figured as the scribe of God, the Angels were keeping him alive as hoping he'd eventually cooperate so they could undo his spell that ejected them all from Heaven in the first place.  Just my own opinion.

 

I wish they'd had cast a better actress as Claire.  If they had, I'd find that story so much more enjoyable.  I find the idea of it really intriguing, and the actual story isn't bad, but the actress is so bad that I think that is why I don't like it.  The original actress was very good in the one episode she was in.  I wonder if she isn't available or not the age they were going for or something.  

 

Is it me or is Crowley's Hell dull?  I miss Crowley's banter with Sam & Dean, and even with Castiel.   I wish he's interact more with them.  The little bit we got in this episode made me miss it all the more.

 

You may be right about Metatron. I was mostly thinking of when Cas made the decision on what to do with him.

 

Crowley's Hell has always been dull, to me anyway. He doesn't like it there and seems to like it less with each passing season. It's why I had hoped Abaddon would take it over. 

 

If they write Crowley and Dean like they did last season I'd want to see more of it. I can't take any more "bromance" gay jokes. Sam and Crowley is one of those relationships that is so one-sided (Crowley does and says terrible things to Sam and Sam...looks annoyed) to me, unfortunately. I do think Crowley and Cas have an interesting relationship. I wouldn't mind seeing more of it.

[AwesomO4000]

It's worse from the addiction point like meth is harder to kick than heroin (as a really terrible analogy) and worse to figure out out how to solve it. But that is not what I'm referring to .

 

I'm talking about the morality of Dean's behavior which is what IMO was being discussed in that conversation between Sam and Cas prior to Dean interrupting.

 

Cas said "Whatever Randy did,  he didn't deserve..."to which Sam replies "Oh I know..I know, I hear you. Dean has HAD to kill before...we both did...but that was....." . To me that was implying that Sam (and Cas)thinks Dean absolutely did NOT need to  and SHOULD not have killed those people as if Sam had never done the same. Sam did NOT need to  and SHOULD not have killed the nurse either. To me it was the tone of the conversation, the acting etc that left me coming away with that as being a judgment on Dean's morality when Sam's morality is not that much better nor was Cas'. 

 

I didn't come away with that impression... at least not from Sam anyway. I'll have to watch the scene again, but my impression was more that Sam was trying to "agree" with Castiel more to cut him off than to actually agree with him... like "I hear you" (but really not), but he didn't want to rock the boat and disagree with Cas - who can sometimes be judgmental at times (and clueless / hypocritical) which makes sense with him being an angel and all. I thought Jared was playing it that way - like he wasn't really being sincere with his "I know. I hear you," but Cas being Cas it would just go over his head anyway. At least that was my first impression on seeing the scene.

 

As for the rest of what Sam said, it maybe was kind of arguable if Dean had to kill them all - we can't know for sure because we didn't see what happened. Now that isn't saying that I thought that any of them deserved mercy - and I can't remember exactly how much we, the audience, knew versus what Sam, Cas, and Dean knew concerning the group (we may have known more than they did which is going to color my impression) - but whether Dean did have to kill them all is potentially in question since we didn't see what happened, just the aftermath.

 

I guess I just got more concern for Dean - and maybe a little fear - from Sam more than "how could he?" And even with the last part of Sam's statement, I got the impression that Sam was at least as much concerned with the "how" of Dean doing it than the why. And this was a departure for Dean, since even with complete scumbags, Dean usually tries not to kill humans unless he absolutely has to and he's usually a bit conflicted afterwards rather than sitting almost comatose, but Dean under the influence of the mark is a little different. The "Thinman" episode killing comes to mind. Dean seemed to have less conflict of emotions during that kill if I'm remembering correctly. He had to kill the guy, but he seemed to be missing some of the usual emotional turmoil when he did it.

 

I may get a different impression on second viewing, but right now, my discussion in the previous post above is based on the impression I've described here - at least when it comes to Sam. For Castiel, I pretty much agree that yup, he went there, but that's fairly consistent with Cas, in my opinion.

[rue721]

Sam chose to continue in his addiction - so that would seem to suggest more blame. Dean would not be addicted if he had the choice - suggesting less blame. But - and this is a big but, in my opinion - Dean is potentially more dangerous than addicted Sam, because his potential for damage is greater. Because Dean might "go off", this lends a bit more unpredictability and lack of control to the equation. So in that sense Sam is correct in that "we've both killed because we had to" (or thought we had to - the nurse), but the mark doesn't want Dean to kill just because he has to but because the mark wants to kill - period. So the "but this is..." with the "different" implied, is in my opinion, technically correct. It's not necessarily assigning more blame to Dean, because Dean would get rid of the mark if he could. It just is different, because the mark makes it so.

 

Killing is also something that's an intrinsic part of their lives. Even if/when Dean gets rid of the Mark, he's still going to have to kill, and in a sense he's still even going to be *compelled* to kill (in that killing is their lives' work, more or less. Though there are obviously issues about why/how that's so, too).

 

There's a much fuzzier boundary between Dean feeding the Mark and Dean doing "regular stuff," than there ever was between Sam drinking the blood or not. I thought that the ending of Hibbing 911, when Dean was saying he felt more like himself after killing those vampires touched on that -- because his behavior then *was* normal for him but it *also* might have been feeding the Mark. There's even a much fuzzier difference between Dean just being a hunter doing his hunting stuff, and Dean using power or skills from the Mark in particular. It's not like when Sam could suddenly move objects with his mind. Dean is just sort of suspiciously fast or suspiciously strong in a fight.

 

Imo there's also been a much fuzzier transition from regular!Dean to MoC!Dean, than there was from Regular!Sam to DemonBlood!Sam. Sometimes Dean even changes in that sense within a scene or between scenes, it's not very predictable. (Which is also why Sam is so jumpy right now imo).

 

I don't think it's a matter of Dean just being "done" with the Mark in the way that Sam could be "done" with the Demon Blood. Dean is not going to be able to live "his" life without killing, Mark or no. Sam could live "his" life without literally quenching his thirst for superhuman/demonic powers.

 

As for blame, I don't really get where blame comes in anyway? Who's doing the blaming? There's not going to be an accounting of misdeeds and according punishments meted out. The characters may face shitty (or not?) consequences for their choices, but those consequences aren't going to be distributed "fairly" or anything. (It's not like Claire deserved tons of punishment for being Jimmy's daughter, for example). I don't think the world of SPN is fundamentally fair in the least, or orderly in that way. I'm not sure that morality even means anything within the world of SPN, to be honest.

 

I'm talking about the morality of Dean's behavior which is what IMO was being discussed in that conversation between Sam and Cas prior to Dean interrupting.

 

I don't think they were discussing the morality of it so much as pinpointing what exactly worried them about it. The reason they said flat out that they'd also killed and that although they weren't vigilantes it also wasn't like the men Dean killed would be missed, imo, was to highlight that it wasn't actually the fact of Dean killing those men that was a problem, but the nature of it -- not that it was an immoral action in itself (i.e., it wasn't the deaths themselves that were the problem) but that it was an out-of-control action (i.e., it was that he wasn't making a conscious decision whether or not to kill was the problem). JMV. 

 

What I actually find unsettling about that is the callous attitude toward life, the *lack* of horror over snuffing out the lives of a bunch of people -- but callousness toward life is a running theme through the series and the show's pretty self-aware about it, it's not that I think it's *especially* an issue in this circumstance imo. YMMV in any case because I personally am probably pretty far on the extreme end of the scale in terms of how bothered I am by the guys killing anyone, including monsters. But I'm also the person who helped a cricket out of the bathtub the other day by "spotting" it with the toilet plunger as it attempted to climb the bathtub wall (I was afraid that if I just turned on the water while it was in the tub, I'd drown it). I don't really expect to have the majority opinion on how killing is treated on the show, lol.

 

I think the whole thing was a mistake, because she was totally forgotten by Cas even though he had a responsibility to Jimmy. Cas was very busy over those years, obviously, but she never crossed his mind until Hannah brought up vessels. Her life was ruined by the angels, and Cas going back to face this helped round off the character for me, even if I would have changed a few things in the story (if she was going to parallel Dean so much I wish they'd had a substantive scene together, and I also they'd had one last strong scene with Cas before she left).

 

A general issue I had with the storyline, that was more about the concept than the execution, was how passive Claire is. What bothers me isn't especially that she doesn't *have* a lot of agency (she's a kid, after all -- though I do think they went too far by literally making her be a sex slave/sold by Randy like chattel) but that she she really doesn't seem to do much to get more or even dreams of what she might do/have if she got more. She's just hitchhiking off to some other pimp, I guess? It's kind of absurd and, Idk, just grating to me that her defining characteristic is apparently that she's "sweet," to the point that the show hung a lampshade on it when in that conversation with the pool playing wanna-be ax murderers who befriended her for no reason. It seems like really, she's not that important for herself as an individual character, but just as a symbol/catalyst for the other characters -- notably Cas, but also Dean, and even (ffs!) Randy. It feels like this weird pseudo fridging to me. It's not just "pseudo-fridging" in that Claire isn't dead (just wondering some highway with all her worldly goods), either, imo it's also "pseudo-fridging" in that I don't even know what "growth" or "journey" she was even a catalyst for, for Castiel.

 

It just kind of grates that she shows up to be basically The Poor Little Match Girl, only important or interesting in terms of how others have abused her, and then conveniently disappears once Cas has (apparently?) "grown" or whatever and Dean has been "revealed" (by the massacre and also by Claire as a mirror). That's a problem with the concept itself, imo -- I think that if the writers had put in *any* more effort than the bare minimum, they might have had enough fun with the character to make her more likeable or hint at more interesting things about her, but her role in the story seems as though it was constructed fundamentally in order for her to be a prop.

[mertensia]

What is Rowena's endgame? Ruling Hell? I'm not sure how she'd do that. I'd find it really funny though if her goal was to kill all demons and empty out Hell.

Dean and Metatron reminded me of that scene in season one of their exorcising Meg.

[Pete Martell]

What is Rowena's endgame? Ruling Hell? I'm not sure how she'd do that. I'd find it really funny though if her goal was to kill all demons and empty out Hell.

 

I think she probably wants to be the power behind the throne. I'm not sure if she'd take the risk of getting rid of Crowley and dealing with an uprising. 

[Pete Martell]

A general issue I had with the storyline, that was more about the concept than the execution, was how passive Claire is. What bothers me isn't especially that she doesn't *have* a lot of agency (she's a kid, after all -- though I do think they went too far by literally making her be a sex slave/sold by Randy like chattel) but that she she really doesn't seem to do much to get more or even dreams of what she might do/have if she got more. She's just hitchhiking off to some other pimp, I guess? It's kind of absurd and, Idk, just grating to me that her defining characteristic is apparently that she's "sweet," to the point that the show hung a lampshade on it when in that conversation with the pool playing wanna-be ax murderers who befriended her for no reason. It seems like really, she's not that important for herself as an individual character, but just as a symbol/catalyst for the other characters -- notably Cas, but also Dean, and even (ffs!) Randy. It feels like this weird pseudo fridging to me. It's not just "pseudo-fridging" in that Claire isn't dead (just wondering some highway with all her worldly goods), either, imo it's also "pseudo-fridging" in that I don't even know what "growth" or "journey" she was even a catalyst for, for Castiel.

 

It just kind of grates that she shows up to be basically The Poor Little Match Girl, only important or interesting in terms of how others have abused her, and then conveniently disappears once Cas has (apparently?) "grown" or whatever and Dean has been "revealed" (by the massacre and also by Claire as a mirror). That's a problem with the concept itself, imo -- I think that if the writers had put in *any* more effort than the bare minimum, they might have had enough fun with the character to make her more likeable or hint at more interesting things about her, but her role in the story seems as though it was constructed fundamentally in order for her to be a prop.

 

I don't think she's just supposed to be seen as sweet, I think we were supposed to see her mostly as someone who was a lost soul but can find the right way (showing that Dean can find the right way too), but I agree that she could have been more about her own story and path. Of course if she had been fans would have hated her even more...

 

I saw some fan complaints comparing her to Cole (the other Dean mirror) and how Cole was given lengthy talks with Dean to help get him back on the right road, whereas Claire never really got any of that, and was mostly left to being about how Dean or Cas felt. I do think we got a little of her in her own voice, but not enough.

 

I guess it depends on whether we ever see her again. 

 

I finally found some meta that almost makes me buy the laughably non-dimensional psycho killers, even if I don't really believe this is what Buckner and Ross-Lemming had in mind.

 

http://crossroadscastiel.tumblr.com/post/108716807022/1x06-8x11-10x10-claires-new-friends-or

[Julia]

I guess what's bothering me about the whole Dean crisis is that it could have been avoided if Sam hadn't decided that the angel needed a wingman walking the teenager to the car and left his brother behind in the house with the gang of pissed off killers. So, given that Sam handed Dean the choice of either killing the bad men or being killed, he's all ambivalent that Dean made the wrong choice? 

 

Even for Sam that's a bit judgey.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Julia

[cassandle]

So, Claire tells some strangers about how people around her kill other people. How does that not set of alarm bells off for any kind of person, murderous douchebag or not? I actually thought they were demons until I saw the baseball bats.

 

So did I.  I kept waiting for their eyes to turn black and for them to kidnap Claire or just keep letting her talk to find where the boys and/or Cas were.  That was the only thing that made sense to me.  Did these two think she was exaggerating about her dad(s) getting killed?  Were they going to kill Dean so she'd be in their debt for some reason?  Either I missed something or it wasn't clear.  And if you're going to kill someone--it's called a gun!  They were going up against a dude who they were just told killed a bunch of guys and they bring a baseball bat and an axe?  If they thought Dean was a garden-variety murderer why wouldn't they assume he'd be well armed?  Yet they brought a bat to what in all probability would have been a gunfight.

 

I guess what's bothering me about the whole Dean crisis is that it could have been avoided if Sam hadn't decided that the angel needed a wingman walking the teenager to the car and left his brother behind in the house with the gang of pissed off killers. So, given that Sam handed Dean the choice of either killing the bad men or being killed, he's all ambivalent that Dean made the wrong choice? 

 

Even for Sam that's a bit judgey.

 

Yeah, that was sloppy writing.  There was no reason Claire needed Sam more than Dean did.  If they wanted us/Sam to be horrified about Dean slaughtering a bunch of men, how about showing us/Sam the actual crazed killing instead of just the aftermath?  And if Dean had good cause to slaughter a bunch of men--if he was legitimately fighting for his life because it was 5 against 1--that would have been nice to see too.  But reaction shots from outside?  That didn't really cut it.  If Sam had been in the room, trying but unable to stop Dean from slicing through the bad guys, I'd be more inclined to share his worry/judgeyness about Dean.  But as it is (for me at least because I tend to side with Dean) I look at it as Dean having no choice because I wasn't shown otherwise.  Sam conveying the idea that Dean had a choice doesn't work because, like us, Sam wasn't there to see it.  And on a purely shallow note, I really would have liked to see that fight because I loves me a good Dean fight :)

[Altered Reality]

So I've seen this episode twice now and I'm still not sure how I feel about it.  There's some interesting stuff in there, but it's not landing for me.

 

Rowena for one.  As an idea she's interesting, but as presented, not so much for me.  She's just too obvious. She's a what, 300 year old witch who's managed to stay ahead of the Grand Coven for how long?  She should be better at this stuff (IMO).

 

And Crowley?  How is he not seeing through his mother's antics.  I really, really hope that he actually does or that he's at least playing a long con on her so all her manipulations come back to bite her in the ass.

 

OTOH, this:

And I'm afraid I must call an immediate emergency meeting of the You Know You Want Him: Learning To Lust Without Fear (YKYWH) club. Because scary, threatening Dean was also hot, melty Dean and I think I need my support group to reassure me that it's okay.

Yup, yup, yup!

 

I did like the scenes with Metatron, Sam and Dean and I can't believe some of the dialogue they got past the censors :D   I'm not thrilled with the use of torture in this show, but I understand Dean wanting to get some payback.  I just worry that it's an action that's going to have some repercussions.

 

So, all in all, I'm glad to have the show back, I just hope that this episode will improve for me once it's in the context of the whole season.

[Mrs OldManBalls]

WTF

Claire.  Yes, they needed to clean this up. But they let this teenager just wander off to NOWHERE???  This is a suck-tastic solution. 

I know! Drove me nuts. Drop her off on Sheriff Jodie's doorstep or something! Don't just *Kanye shrug* and leave her on some road in the middle of nowhere! 

 

 

I think we were supposed to care for Dean (going too far), not about whether Metatron was injured. 

 

I can take Metatron in small doses, because Curtis Armstrong does a great job and has a lot of energy (which the show needs more of...), but that's about it. 

I wanted Dean to give in and fuck shit up. I'm over angels. However, Curtis Armstrong is doing a fantastic job! 

[catrox14]

So I've seen this episode twice now and I'm still not sure how I feel about it.  There's some interesting stuff in there, but it's not landing for me.

 

Rowena for one.  As an idea she's interesting, but as presented, not so much for me.  She's just too obvious. She's a what, 300 year old witch who's managed to stay ahead of the Grand Coven for how long?  She should be better at this stuff (IMO).

 

And Crowley?  How is he not seeing through his mother's antics.  I really, really hope that he actually does or that he's at least playing a long con on her so all her manipulations come back to bite her in the ass.

 

OTOH, this:

Yup, yup, yup!

 

I did like the scenes with Metatron, Sam and Dean and I can't believe some of the dialogue they got past the censors :D   I'm not thrilled with the use of torture in this show, but I understand Dean wanting to get some payback.  I just worry that it's an action that's going to have some repercussions.

 

So, all in all, I'm glad to have the show back, I just hope that this episode will improve for me once it's in the context of the whole season.

 

100% agree about the dialogue, I think they are really pushing the censors and I did really laugh at

 

"scared spitless" instead of "shitless"

 

"dickwad" used twice

the normal allotments of 'bitch' and son of a bitch

 

'Go screw yourself"

 

I swear I want a R rated or at least cable cut of the boys swearing like those guys probably really would.

[Altered Reality]

100% agree about the dialogue, I think they are really pushing the censors and I did really laugh at

 

"scared spitless" instead of "shitless"

 

"dickwad" used twice

the normal allotments of 'bitch' and son of a bitch

 

'Go screw yourself"

 

I swear I want a R rated or at least cable cut of the boys swearing like those guys probably really would.

 

I second that idea! Especially if Crowley is allowed to use British terms.  There is potential there for some really funny stuff :D

[catrox14]

Upon re-watch Ithink I like the episode less except for the Dean/Metatron stuff.

 

I'm really trying hard to see that Sam is not being judgey about Dean but this line of dialogue grates...

 

SAM:  You just whacked a whole houseful of people and that's when the Blade was nowhere around, and now you want to be in actual contact with it?

 

okay the way that is written is like Dean just decided to willy nilly kill 5 people, like it was a hit or something.  It completely takes out the context that Dean was left there by himself 5 against 1 and that he had been hit in the head and kicked in the head, and was possibly even knocked unconscious for a minute. But before Dean went after them he warned them to back off.  Sam had no qualms with leaving Dean alone with them. ...sigh....

[cassandle]

okay the way that is written is like Dean just decided to willy nilly kill 5 people, like it was a hit or something.  It completely takes out the context that Dean was left there by himself 5 against 1 and that he had been hit in the head and kicked in the head, and was possibly even knocked unconscious for a minute. But before Dean went after them he warned them to back off.  Sam had no qualms with leaving Dean alone with them. ...sigh....

 

Yeah, you can't blame the Hulk if someone makes him angry enough to fight.  Regular-Flavored Dean shouldn't be left alone with a room full of would-be rapists much less MOC Dean.  Whether it's possible for Dean to be attacked or for Dean to be the attacker--either way Sam should have stayed.  But sure, sit in the car and wait a crazy long time for your outnumbered brother to come out of the house, Sam.

[Aeryn13]

 

As for blame, I don't really get where blame comes in anyway? Who's doing the blaming?

 

The narrative IMO. By removing pretty much all the context and throwing words around like "massacre" which in itself is not a word you would use to describe a situation where one guy was attacked by many and defended himself, even if so with hypervigilance and too much force. A "massacre" invokes the image of Dean coming in armed to the teeth and gleefully hacking down children who were cowering on the floor at the time, or something.

 

So they framed it as pretty much an evil act. And by Sam and Cas displaying moral judgment with again, no context or nothing or a reminder of THEIR less than unsavory pasts, they thus become mouthpieces for the blame game. Dean`s MOC situation is different in ways than say the blood addiction but it is not morally "worse". It doesn`t mean he is born evil and that only it comes out or something. Yet IMO that is kinda the perspective the writers, these two at least, are coming from. Maybe they don`t view him as wholly evil but apparently not as "good" as Sam or Cas.

[SueB]

I did feel judgement off either Sam or Cas. Concern. They know it's over the line but they know its the Mark IMO.

Upon reflection, I've decided that how they left Claire was irresponsible. And I dont think the writers know that.

Edited January 22, 2015 by SueB

[Julia]

Upon reflection, I've decided that how they left Claire was irresponsible. And I dont think the writers know that.

 

I'm less worried about Claire than I am about whoever she runs into next. In the past what, 48 hours?, she's tried to murder two people (although with the store clerk I suppose it's more she was willing to murder him than that she actively tried), she's got the most terrible taste in friends pretty much ever, and she's willing to go nads to the wall to defend them. She should not be set loose on the world.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Julia

[Altered Reality]

Upon reflection, I've decided that how they left Claire was irresponsible. And I dont think the writers know that.

 

I think you are right.  In fact, I think the writers don't know how much of how Claire is written is a problem. I know I'm supposed to care about her/be concerned for her, but how can I when she's basically just a literary device? 

 

I'm less worried about Claire than I am about whoever she runs into next. In the past what, 48 hours?, she's tried to murder two people (although with the store clerk I suppose it's more she was willing to murder him than that she actively tried), she's got the most terrible taste in friends pretty much ever, and she's willing to go nads to the wall to defend them. She should not be set loose on the world.

 

This is a good point!  I suspect this was supposed to be more mirroring of Dean. I forget exactly when he said it about himself, but I remember him saying it scared him how far he was willing to go for those he loves.  But he has good reason to love those people and we've seen it, so we can maybe cut him a little slack on that.  Claire?  Yeah, not so much.

[cassandle]

If I remember right, Dean said that when he used the Colt on the demon that was beating the hell out of Sam when they went to rescue John in the first season.  He didn't care that there was a human in the meat suit, his only focus was on saving his family.

 

ETA:  Yeah, from Salvation:

 

Dean: You know that guy I shot?  There was a person in there.
Sam:  You didn’t have a choice, Dean,
Dean:  Yeah, I know, that’s not what bothers me,
Sam: Then what does?
Dean:  Killin’ that guy, killin’ Meg...I didn’t hesitate.   I didn’t even flinch.  For you or dad, the things I’m willing to do or kill…it’s just…uh….  It scares me sometimes.

 

(There's nothing like watching and transcribing an episode of Supernatural at work and having your boss come back early from a meeting and nearly catching you. Yikes.)

Edited January 22, 2015 by cassandle

[Pete Martell]

So they framed it as pretty much an evil act. And by Sam and Cas displaying moral judgment with again, no context or nothing or a reminder of THEIR less than unsavory pasts, they thus become mouthpieces for the blame game. Dean`s MOC situation is different in ways than say the blood addiction but it is not morally "worse". It doesn`t mean he is born evil and that only it comes out or something. Yet IMO that is kinda the perspective the writers, these two at least, are coming from. Maybe they don`t view him as wholly evil but apparently not as "good" as Sam or Cas.

 

I don't think it's about "evil," since it was clearly shown in this episode that Dean was able to stop himself from killing more people, even when he had plenty of justification for doing so. I think they call it a massacre because technically it was one. When Cas went around torturing and slaughtering people in late season 6/early season 7, Dean didn't take time to say, "He's under a lot of pressure," or, "Sam and I have done bad things, who are we to judge?" or, "That's not really who Cas would be most of the time." He saw Cas as a monster who had to be stopped. And he was right. In this case they aren't even saying that about Dean - they're saying the mark can lead him to spin out of control and it's a real danger to him, not just to other people. Even then, by the end of the episode, Sam was suggesting that he might be able to control it through his own efforts (which he did).

 

Sam could say, "Who am I to judge because of this and that," Cas could say the same, but that would just muddy the issue even more, and viewers would wonder why they should even care if Dean gets rid of the mark, because everyone else did something too, so it's no biggie. I also don't think it's in character for any of these characters to check off a list of their own mistakes before they worry about the latest one.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Julia]

Sam could say, "Who am I to judge because of this and that," Cas could say the same, but that would just muddy the issue even more, and viewers would wonder why they should even care if Dean gets rid of the mark, because everyone else did something too, so it's no biggie. 

 

Except that's exactly what Cas did with killer Claire. Yeah, she's vindictive, homicidal and dumb as a box of rocks, but that just proves how little love she has in her life so they should just let it go. 

Edited January 23, 2015 by Julia

[Pete Martell]

I don't remember Dean and Sam having any objection to letting her go. If they did, it wasn't shown. I think they knew she was having a hard time and had managed to get through it, so they were letting her go, since none of them were in a position to be parents anyway.

[Julia]

I don't remember Dean and Sam having any objection to letting her go. If they did, it wasn't shown. I think they knew she was having a hard time and had managed to get through it, so they were letting her go, since none of them were in a position to be parents anyway.

 

I guess I wasn't understanding your post, then? Because in this case, all three of them did pretty much go all relativistic and decided that it wasn't their place to judge, so it's clearly something they do, and yeah, it did muddy the issue quite a bit, JMO, but I don't get why Claire gets the benefit of the doubt and Dean doesn't.

 

Well, except that Sam is involved.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Julia

[Altered Reality]

If I remember right, Dean said that when he used the Colt on the demon that was beating the hell out of Sam when they went to rescue John in the first season.  He didn't care that there was a human in the meat suit, his only focus was on saving his family.

 

ETA:  Yeah, from Salvation:

 

Dean: You know that guy I shot?  There was a person in there.

Sam:  You didn’t have a choice, Dean,

Dean:  Yeah, I know, that’s not what bothers me,

Sam: Then what does?

Dean:  Killin’ that guy, killin’ Meg...I didn’t hesitate.   I didn’t even flinch.  For you or dad, the things I’m willing to do or kill…it’s just…uh….  It scares me sometimes.

 

(There's nothing like watching and transcribing an episode of Supernatural at work and having your boss come back early from a meeting and nearly catching you. Yikes.)

Thanks for this, my memory is spotty at best, I'd not have found that quote.  Sorry about the boss thing, hope it didn't cause to many problems.