S03.E01: EST Men

[Umbelina]

That, and the new guy who will be running the country is a hard ass, and former KBG, that will have to change some things.  I think it will make the Paige issue be even more forced through frankly.  He isn't the sympathetic type, and wants orders obeyed.

[Boundary]

Defection or running away doesn't solve the problem. With their skill set, the FBI will be wary and the KGB won't let them get away. They can't outrun both organizations with two kids in tow. 

[scrb]

But it looks like the Paige issue is coming to a head soon, not 3 years later.

[Umbelina]

Defection isn't an option, because Elizabeth would never agree, hell, she'd probably shoot Phillip herself if he suggested it.  Also, even if Phillip did, he'd spend the rest of his life in jail, or worse, traded for someone in custody in the USSR and killed.  The kids would be in foster care.

 

Running, if it was just Phillip and the kids, MIGHT work, if circumstances allow, for example lots of cash and finding trustworthy connections.  Again, Elizabeth would not agree, unless one of her kids was threatened or killed, and even then?  I'm not so sure.

 

ETA Phillip may soon begin to secretly prepare for that option, even if he never takes it.  ID wasn't checked at airports back then, and giving or selling someone your ticket was common, and no big deal either.  He's in the travel industry, so he may think about arranging some things that way.  Use some returned tickets, or use fake former clients to book a flight, go down to the airport and pay cash, or just list them as purchased with cash by "Mr. Williams and his kids Jeff and Jessie to LA for Disneyland."  Land in LA and use tickets from "Mr. Simpson with his kids Bart and Lisa to go visit grandma in Idaho."  from there hop a train to Arizona or South Dakota.  He'd know how to do that.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Umbelina

[Boundary]

There's just no happy resolution here, frankly I'm quite surprised we're going there so soon, even though this is the natural destination for the Suspicious Paige storyline from last season. This is endgame territory: forcing Elizabeth to choose between mother country and her children, especially given the news from her own mother. For the record, if push comes to shove and she had no other way of protecting her kids, Elizabeth might defect. I think she can put her kids above ideology but having sacrificed everything to get to that point it won't be an easy decision.

[sistermagpie]

Keep in mind with Glasnost and Perestroika coming three years down the line all of these Soviet spies will be out of work. Now the characters don't know that but we do and since Paige will only be 17 in 1985 it will be interesting to see where Joe and Joel take this story.

 

 

Actually, I think plenty of them just rolled with the governments and worked for the SVR. I could see Philip adapting to that more than Elizabeth, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

I do think that the Paige story is more about parenting a child than about producing some teenaged spy (which sounds incredibly annoying). The main thing expected of Paige would simply be to get a job the KGB liked. She probably wouldn't even be getting the same training as a CIA agent would get--unless she was a CIA agent. And that wouldn't happen until after college, and would require her getting a lot of skills she doesn't yet have. Elizabeth was 17 when she joined the KGB so Philip was probably around the same age. Both of them would have presumably had to impress the Centre with their skills to come to their attention--like, they probably excelled in English at the very least.

[Umbelina]

There is no way they would let her keep her kids if she defected, or frankly, even let her out of custody.  Or at least, I seriously doubt it.  Anyone know of any kind of history on that?

 

I just can't see defection as an option for either of them.  What information would they have that's valuable enough to be released?  Everyone already knows the Soviet Embassy is full of spies, and even if they deport some, more will come.  They don't really know other undercover agents, the ones they did know are dead.  Yeah, they could solve a few cases, specifically their own participation, and perhaps tell them about the pen, but so what?  There best outcome from defecting would probably be "use them as triple agents" rather than life in prison, and neither of them would want to do that.

 

It's not as if they have anymore trust in the CIA/FBI than they have in the KGB.

[sistermagpie]

I just can't see defection as an option for either of them.  What information would they have that's valuable enough to be released?

 

 

I agree. I think Philip's plan in the pilot--even with Timoshev for bargaining--was a pipe dream. He seemed to think he could just use defection as a retirement plan, get money to live on and not be "stupid" like Timoshev by helping the FBI.

 

Which is ridiculous. More likely they'd be expected to become double agents. Look at Nina--the FBI didn't want to get rid of a mole. 

 

Plus, for all that Philip wants to retire, he cares about Russia and I really don't think he wants to help Americans kill Russians. He's not Elizabeth the True Believer, and he doesn't think America's evil, but he doesn't just think it's all the same and spying for Washington's the same as spying for Moscow.

[Constantinople]

That, and the new guy who will be running the country is a hard ass, and former KBG, that will have to change some things.  I think it will make the Paige issue be even more forced through frankly.  He isn't the sympathetic type, and wants orders obeyed.

Not to worry.

I have it on good authority that he's fond of cynical political jokes with an antiregime twist, collects abstract art, likes jazz and Gypsy music and has a record of stepping out of his high party official's cocoon to contact dissidents. He swims, plays tennis and wears clothes that are sharply tailored in a West European style. Besides the Viennese waltz and the Hungarian czarda, he dances the tango gracefully, he likes Glenn Miller records, good scotch whisky, Oriental rugs, and American books. His musical favorites also include Chubby Checker, Frank Sinatra, Peggy Lee, and Bob Eberly.

Hell, he's probably more American than Elizabeth or Philip.

[SmoothCriminal]

Actually, I think plenty of them just rolled with the governments and worked for the SVR.

 

 

This seems like the plotline of Allegiance, which will start to air this thursday. Are you guys planning to watch it? I will probably check it out. It won't be as good as The Americans, but the family dynamic seems interesting. A former KGB spy is approached by a member of SVR, who tells her and her american husband (also a former spy) to recruit their son. He is a young CIA Agent and very good at his job. The older daughter already knows the secret and seems to be working with SVR.

 

 

 

 

[sistermagpie]

I can't say the commercials for Allegiance peak my interest. The guy in that doesn't just seem very good at his job, he's the standard network TV good at his job where he's got Sherlock Holmes superpowers so he can solve things in minutes that far more experienced agents don't even see. I don't know if it was like that on the Israeli show but I can see why people think it looks like The Americans if it was a less interesting, standard show.

[90PercentGravity]

I can't say the commercials for Allegiance peak my interest. The guy in that doesn't just seem very good at his job, he's the standard network TV good at his job where he's got Sherlock Holmes superpowers so he can solve things in minutes that far more experienced agents don't even see. I don't know if it was like that on the Israeli show but I can see why people think it looks like The Americans if it was a less interesting, standard show.

Looks like the network version of The Americans, where they replace the butt shot budget with the bad writing budget.

[DrSpaceman]

I think part of the whole "just groom page" plan from the KGB is cultural ignorance.  The USA and the USSR had (have, now with Russia) so many cultural differences that it's hard to really understand, on a very basic level, that what may seem easy to them, is not, not with a kid who has been raised in relative ease, wealth, and the kind of basic freedoms, such as speaking your mind without fear, choosing your own beliefs that Moscow big wigs simply couldn't understand, no matter how much they studied the US.  Did they even listen to their agents that were embedded?  Maybe, a bit, but basically they were just tools to carry out orders.

 

Elizabeth has, in many ways, closed herself off from those US "basic" freedoms, almost as if she will not allow herself to see any good in democracy or the US way of life, because it may shake her commitment.  Phillip is quite different, is more enmeshed, and, he understands, or is beginning to understand that, although the foreign policies may infuriate him, day to day life is much better in the USA. 

 

Phillip GETS that blowing up his daughter's world by both the grooming, and the inevitable reveal that they are Soviet spies, and they want Paige to be one too is really quite insane.  It simply won't work, although the KGB could certainly use tactics to force Paige into it, or to keep her mouth shut.  Or, if she becomes resentful, or liable to turn her parents in, to simply shoot her in the head, or "disappear her."  Phillip KNOWS that the KGB doesn't give a shit about their kids, and it (rightly IMO) scares him silly.

 

Elizabeth, who constantly works hard at being a true believer, SHOULD know the same thing, but she either doesn't, or is blindly refusing to believe it.  She loves the idea of her daughter knowing who Elizabeth is, and the idea of being fighters against the evil US empire TOGETHER.  She has absolute (or is forcing absolute) confidence that her daughter will love and admire her more after this reveal, and love to serve in her cause.

 

It's going to be a mess.

 

Elizabeth doesn't get what we, or most of us do, since we were born here, and can kind of understand what it would have done to us, had our parents confessed treason and expected us to choose their lives as a young teen.  Hell, very few kids wanted to follow in mom and dad's footsteps as plumbers, or lawyers, or travel agents, let alone turning your entire future over to the KGB!  Phillip does get it.

 

It's going to be a fascinating mess.

 

 

Lots of good points I hadn't considered. 

 

Also Elizabeth seems to be of the mindset that her kids should do what she says simply because that is what they are told, so they should follow orders just like she has done all her life.  She should at least be aware with what happened last season, however, that seems to be how her friends ended up getting killed by their son. 

 

its true though that you can't just tell someone "You're russian/soviet even though you were born and raised here, so change your loyalty"

 

Its seem this program would be ripe for producing double agents as well.  The kids could grow up, agree to the program if forced to do so and then simply tell the CIA/FBI what is happening and work against them

 

And what I find most amusing of all this is, though they don't know it, none of this will really matter in less than 10 years anyway after the Soviet union collpases.  I actually think that could be the most interesting part of the show if they follow it through that long, what happens to Elizabeth and Phillip in a post-soviet union world

[Inquisitionist]

its true though that you can't just tell someone "You're russian/soviet even though you were born and raised here, so change your loyalty"

 

Which is, I expect, why Elizabeth is deliberately building bonds with Paige, to slowly attempt to convince Paige that the things she values and believes naturally align with Communism and the USSR.  I see this as being a very delicate long-game.

[Hanahope]

So not knowing at all what EST was, I looked it up and I still don't understand what it was all about.  I guess something about getting in touch with your feelings?  I have no idea.

 

So I guess Elizabeth walked to that bar where she met the female CIA agent?  Why didn't she drive?  Oh yeah, so she could walk home and get into a fight with the FBI.

 

I don't think Phillip intended for Annalise to die, but I don't think he was all that distraught about it either.  It actually may work out better for him to have something more concrete on the guy than a honeytrap.

 

The Kama Sutra thing was funny.  I wonder who Martha is going to shoot?

 

I guess after the disasters of Granny and Kate, they had to get Gabriel back no matter what.

 

I thought part of the scene where Elizabeth is throwing Paige into the water is also demonstrative of how Elizabeth really has no maternal/emotional feelings, or she's at least learned to close them down to 'get the job done'.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Hanahope

[Glory87]

Another comment on the name Paige. I was born in 1969. My parents were friendly with another couple when I was young with 3 children. Jamie (a girl, my age) and twin girls (four years younger) named Paige and Melissa. I don't recall thinking Paige was an odd name or anything unusual about it at all.

[sistermagpie]

I don't think Phillip intended for Annalise to die, but I don't think he was all that distraught about it either.  It actually may work out better for him to have something more concrete on the guy than a honeytrap.

 

 

I tend to think it's more dangerous because with Anneleise the guy didn't know he was being spied on. He was basically Martha. Now he's being blackmailed, so he's giving info under duress...like Larrick. Claudia mentioned last season that of all the ways to force somebody to work for you, she found blackmail the most unreliable.

 

But with Philip and Yousef it might actually be more interesting given the circumstances. I'd love to see the two of them get into some twisted almost friendship thing through their shared guilt about Anneleise. Philip just walks into these emotional quagmires--he can't avoid them. Elizabeth manages to keep even some of her actual emotional relationships under tight control. (Some of them.)

[Umbelina]

Elizabeth is pretty much being ordered to fast track her grooming of Paige though.  Center wants it done and wants it ASAP. 

 

This is also a great story because it's going to really illustrate the differences between having choices, and having none.  Phillip and Elizabeth grew up having none, and because of that, they may not have questioned the choice that was made for them by their government.  They may have even felt lucky, since being KGB probably meant food, respect, more education, less manual labor, and someplace warm to sleep. 

 

Paige is now just about their age, but, for Phillip, this must be bringing back his own memories of that time, and how different he felt than Paige will feel.  I think Elizabeth is just thrilled that she can finally cut the freedom Paige has enjoyed and make her tow the line, and learn Elizabeth's values and value. 

 

Still...memories...for both of them, but somehow I think they will react in very different ways to those.

[Hecate7]

Well, that was even more nudity than usual, lol.

Elizabeth really doesn't have a clue if she thinks Paige would not be miserable living the spy/traitor life the Centre wants for her. Or maybe she thinks they have absolutely no choice, so they should at least make the best of it? Whereas Phillip is willing to fight this.

Poor Annalise. That was really terrible.

Stan continues to be pathetic.

I worry for Martha from the previews...

 

Well, I always wondered when Philip would have to kill Martha.

Elizabeth is blind to the fact that Paige is not Elizabeth. But Phillip gets it. What he sees, that Elizabeth does not, is that every single one of their female operatives except Elizabeth and Claudia has died on the job in the last year. Seriously, has one of those other honeypots survived?

[shura]

They may have even felt lucky, since being KGB probably meant food, respect, more education, less manual labor, and someplace warm to sleep.

 

So your average non-KGB Soviet citizen was a character of a Dickens novel? Damn, that's rough ;).

[Umbelina]

From everything I've been told, read, and watched documentaries of?  Yeah, pretty much.  I was also involved with Russian refugees, and Odessa after the fall of the USSR.  My friend's mother was starving to death, she was the wife and mother of doctors, no heat, scary on the streets. 

 

The very elite may have had more than cabbage to eat, but the rest were struggling.

[chocolatine]

So your average non-KGB Soviet citizen was a character of a Dickens novel? Damn, that's rough ;).

 

 

Based on what my grandparents told me about life in the 40s and 50s, pretty much. Things were very bad during the war and for a while afterwards.

[PinkRibbons]

So your average non-KGB Soviet citizen was a character of a Dickens novel? Damn, that's rough ;).

 

From what my parents tell me...not far off the mark. Although there was also the whole "someone is always watching you" thing on top of it. Apparently things were looking up in the 60s for a while, but in the 70s everything went to hell.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghubipOkxfM

[Umbelina]

I've heard a lot of stories, including operations being done with no anesthetic, because they simply had none.  Aspirin was hard to come by.  Doctors used a lot of folk and "natural" remedies, herbs, plants, because they had nothing else.  We've all seen the lines for very limited food, or even shoes to wear in far below 0 temps and deep snow.  It was pretty bleak unless you were high in the party, or mafia.

[chocolatine]

I've heard a lot of stories, including operations being done with no anesthetic, because they simply had none.

 

 

Yup, a gynecologist family friend once told me that she had to perform D&Cs without anesthetic well into the 80s. I shudder just thinking about it.

[PinkRibbons]

I've heard a lot of stories, including operations being done with no anesthetic, because they simply had none.  Aspirin was hard to come by.  Doctors used a lot of folk and "natural" remedies, herbs, plants, because they had nothing else.  We've all seen the lines for very limited food, or even shoes to wear in far below 0 temps and deep snow.  It was pretty bleak unless you were high in the party, or mafia.

 

No anesthetic for any dental work except tooth extractions, no anesthetic for abortions, no anesthetic for pretty much anything your would use local for nowadays. When my mother was doing her mandatory military training to be a reserve nurse, she passed a woman getting getting a boil on her breast lance and the only "painkiller" was the doctor yelling "Stop screaming, you idiot! It doesn't hurt!"

 

On the upside the doctors had so little to work with that quite a few of them became almost supernaturally good diagnosticians. They could tell you what was wrong with you using a rake and some tin foil, basically. (No, not really. It was way too hard to get tinfoil. Usually they just listened to your symptoms and looked at you.) At least one doc I know that immigrated was so good at pulling teeth that he could literally get a tooth out of anyone in under a second, no matter how badly impacted it was. In America my Mom saw him for a tooth that supposedly needed $500 dental surgery, and he pulled it and charged her $25, counting the anesthetic.

[gwhh]

Good points all around.

Because it was indoors, and what looked a nicer YMCA or health club, and they are usually heated. Even if it wasn't , it was far more luxurious and comfortable than any Soviet Russian community pool for families. It was a Sissy American Bougie pool and not some ice cold watering hole with river dirt, wildlife, heavy currents, etc. By Soviet standards, Little Paige needed to get over her whiney teetering and swim, so she got shoved into the pool.

[topanga]

 

I get the superhuman strength part but what specifically is the wonder dick?

 

I do wonder about that, among other things. Is Philip that good in bed, or are Martha and Annalise just in love?  And I appreciated the morning-after scene where Philip looked a little worn-out, but doesn't Elizabeth also get worn-out or just plain sore? And forgive me for being graphic, but frequent rough sex can lead to urinary tract infections and yeast infections in women--I wonder if these ever affect her. And I wonder if either of them get STDs--we've seen Philip use a condom with Martha, but so much of their honey-potting is set up to look spontaneous. So would they really use a condom every time?

 

Last thing: how do Philip and Elizabeth find the physical and emotional energy to be intimate with one another when they have so much fake sex with other people? I don't think Elizabeth has to do it as much anymore, but Clark goes over to Martha's at least twice a week, right? And she's always ready for a good time with her man.

 

 

 

I could almost buy the wig issues, but why not get off the street?  Tons of buildings around there, and she could have called a taxi or someone to pick her up.

 

 

Ha, this scene was actually shot 2 blocks away from my house (in Brooklyn), and that whole scene my husband and I were yelling "you can come here Elizabeth! We're right around the corner!"  Especially weird because Keri Russell actually lives very near here and we see her all the time around the neighborhood.  I actually just saw her at a neighborhood bar a couple weeks ago - kissing Matthew Rhys - and as I was completely out of touch about the fact that they were dating in real life it was a very surreal experience...

 

 

That is so cool. I have this recurring fantasy where I pack up my family and move us all to Los Angeles. Not to become a celebrity, mind you, but for the opportunity to see celebrities walk down the street. I'm that much of a celebrity fan-whore.

[chocolatine]

Is Philip that good in bed, or are Martha and Annalise just in love?

 

 

I think he's very good at assessing each partner's needs and catering to them. He seems to have different sexual "personas" depending on the situation.

 

And I appreciated the morning-after scene where Philip looked a little worn-out, but doesn't Elizabeth also get worn-out or just plain sore? And forgive me for being graphic, but frequent rough sex can lead to urinary tract infections and yeast infections in women--I wonder if these ever affect her.

 

 

I'm sure it has at certain points, but TPTB don't want to go into that aspect of women's health. 

 

And I wonder if either of them get STDs--we've seen Philip use a condom with Martha, but so much of their honey-potting is set up to look spontaneous. So would they really use a condom every time?

 

 

I don't think people worried about safe sex that much before the AIDS epidemic was publicized, which IIRC wasn't until 1985.

 

I have this recurring fantasy where I pack up my family and move us all to Los Angeles. Not to become a celebrity, mind you, but for the opportunity to see celebrities walk down the street. I'm that much of a celebrity fan-whore.

 

 

I think you'll have better luck meeting celebrities in NYC - LA is not a "walk down the street" type of city. I actually met Matthew Rhys in NYC when the first season of the American was airing. I told him how much I loved the show, and he shook my hand and thanked me.

[topanga]

 

Because it was indoors, and what looked a nicer YMCA or health club, and they are usually heated. Even if it wasn't , it was far more luxurious and comfortable than any Soviet Russian community pool for families. It was a Sissy American Bougie pool and not some ice cold watering hole with river dirt, wildlife, heavy currents, etc. By Soviet standards, Little Paige needed to get over her whiney teetering and swim, so she got shoved into the pool.

I do think it was a bit harsh, but in the words of Chris Rock, "I can understand." Elizabeth looked around -- yes, to see if the coast was clear--but also to look at the kids with floaties and life vests who can't swim, and she probably thought, "what a waste of time. In you go, Paige." My children took years of swim lessons at the Y, but they didn't really learn how to swim until I took them to a swimming school where the teachers didn't use any floatation devices during instruction.

 

 

I think you'll have better luck meeting celebrities in NYC - LA is not a "walk down the street" type of city. I actually met Matthew Rhys in NYC when the first season of the American was airing. I told him how much I loved the show, and he shook my hand and thanked me.

chocolatine, you rock!

Edited February 5, 2015 by topanga

[scowl]

From what my parents tell me...not far off the mark. Although there was also the whole "someone is always watching you" thing on top of it. Apparently things were looking up in the 60s for a while, but in the 70s everything went to hell.

 

According to "Failed Empire" by Vladislav Zubok, the availability of consumer goods was constantly improving all through the 70's. Thanks to soaring oil prices, the Soviet Union was producing over a $1 trillion of oil every year and exporting about $300 billion of it to the west (the rest went down the drain in Eastern Bloc countries). This gave them tons of currency to increase the importation of consumer goods and even purchase new factory lines from the west. This occasionally trickled down to regular Soviet people. Things went to hell during the 80's when OPEC increased production and oil prices fell. After the Soviet Union fell (spoiler!) much of the brand new equipment they had purchased to produce consumer goods was found in factories completely unused.

 

Political oppression did improve with deStalination during the 60's. While the horrors of Stalin didn't return after Khrushchev was deposed, the invasion of Czechoslovakia told everyone that the old Soviet Union was back and citizens should watch what they say.

[PinkRibbons]

According to my mother and other immigrants who lived in the USSR in the 70s, things were already going to hell, they just "sped up in going to hell" in the eighties. When comparing the country to the 60s, people in the 70s saw a drastic change of mood. My mother puts it, "people started to see that the thaw was over, but the bolts were being tightened". In the 60s it was optimistic -- the camps were opened, they started to build housing; things were finally looking up after the war.  But like you say, after the Prague Spring (not to mention the Six Day War, when anti-Semitism skyrocketed), everything started to visibly fall apart. Although it was true that there were some occasional consumer goods, prices were raised dramatically. In any case, those goods when they did very rarely appear only ever made it to the big cities*, and the small towns and rural areas (the vast majority) were SOL. Villages died as young people ran away from them and that basically killed agriculture; it still hasn't recovered.

 

As for all that money coming in, it was pretty much all spent on armament. The consumer goods that did trickle in were of notoriously poor quality, and anything good was only sold on the Black Market at inconceivable prices.

 

*Then there was the bizarre distribution system. One city got light bulbs, another had scissors. In many cities you couldn't get a hold of notebooks, dishes, soap, underwear, socks, knitting needles, children's clothing. Stuff would disappear for years. Clothes were so precious that after you outgrew one (good-quality, usually sent in a box from abroad) item you'd meet it on the street on complete strangers for years as it was passed around.

[scrb]

Yeah good pair of Levis was suppose to fetch like $200.

 

Someone made a flip remark about the real reason for the USSR falling was not having good VCRs (or substitute just about any other consumer good that was taken for granted in the West).

[albaniantv]

In 1987 I was at a conference in Finland where a visa-free 3 or 4 day escorted train trip into Leningrad was a huge draw for Americans, and others who would have had a lot of lines to wait in to get a visa from the Soviets. Several of us went and a couple memories are still poignant regarding consumer goods in this beautiful second city.

One was a cavernous hotel restaurant with a very weird "rock" band and a huge menu that I kept using my limited Russian to order from. Every time I was told, nyet and finally they sent someone over to explain to me they had 2 dishes available: chicken Kiev and beef Stroganoff. Both were terrific, but I felt bad for the staff who were obviously embarrassed, serving dinners to five or six tables in a place set for at least a hundred.

I remember being taken through the Hermitage by a really wonderful old "English" guide whose English was very limited but German excellent. She told me her English was from pre- WW2 but her German was refreshed every year with courses if needed. Then she quickly changed subject before I could ask awkward follow-up questions. Going around the corners of the endless rooms of the Hermitage, sometimes we could catch sight of older women wearing some kind of felt (?) slippers--I assume they were more or less polishing the floors. If they saw us look, they retreated.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I think you'll have better luck meeting celebrities in NYC - LA is not a "walk down the street" type of city. I actually met Matthew Rhys in NYC when the first season of the American was airing. I told him how much I loved the show, and he shook my hand and thanked me.

When my sister lived in LA, she saw celebrities often, usually at the grocery store. My other friend saw Jared Leto having coffee around the corner from her house a few weeks ago. I think it depends on what parts of LA you frequent. But one thing about LA is that people who actually live there tend to be respectful of their private time and not approach celebrities when they see them out and about. When my friend saw Jared Leto, he was sitting at a little cafe and no one approached him. They just let him sit there drinking his coffee. My friend was the only one who said anything to him and that was just to ask if she could pet his dog (not a euphemism!).

I have this recurring fantasy where I pack up my family and move us all to Los Angeles. Not to become a celebrity, mind you, but for the opportunity to see celebrities walk down the street. I'm that much of a celebrity fan-whore.

My other friend frequently has tv shows shoot in his neighborhood in LA. Last year they shot a lot of scenes for Ray Donovan and this week they are shooting scenes for Jane the Virgin! Edited February 6, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[scrb]

 When my friend saw Jared Leto, he was sitting at a little cafe and no one approached him. They just let him sit there drinking his coffee. My friend was the only one who said anything to him and that was just to ask if she could pet his dog (not a euphemism!).

 

 

So did she?

 

"Pet his dog" that is?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

She did! But only in the most literal sense (despite Jared Leto's reputation for sleeping with every chick in a 100 mile radius).

[Blakeston]

Elizabeth and Philip are named what they're named because their names are stolen from dead children. Emmett and Leanne had less common names--Jared isn't that common either. It's possible that they got the name Paige from hearing it somewhere in the states to the Centre approved it as okay name. I mean, Philip and Elizabeth have the same experience of American names as the Centre would, and if they've heard the name Paige and researched it enough to know it wasn't made up I can easily see the Centre saying it's fine. In fact, perhaps the real Elizabeth Jennings had a mother named Paige and she's supposed to be named after her, for all we know.

 

When did they tell us that there was a dead couple named Philip and Elizabeth Jennings, whose identities were assumed by the main characters? I would think that assuming the names of real-life people would be very risky.

 

If that's how the illegals get their identities, though, I would imagine that Emmett and Leeann were also the names of real-life people (as opposed to names that the Center chose for them).

[sistermagpie]

When did they tell us that there was a dead couple named Philip and Elizabeth Jennings, whose identities were assumed by the main characters? I would think that assuming the names of real-life people would be very risky.

 

If that's how the illegals get their identities, though, I would imagine that Emmett and Leeann were also the names of real-life people (as opposed to names that the Center chose for them).

 

 

Not a dead couple--a couple of dead children. It was confirmed last season that this is what the Illegals do when Stan tracked down the "real" Emmett and Leanne and they had both died in childhood, presumably never having met each other.

 

If they steal a real identity they get a real social security # with birth records. The only way someone will discover that something's up is if they specifically go looking for a record of death for that identity, and since the person is allegedly alive and right there, people don't do that.

[Loandbehold]

In Day of the Jackal, Forsythe (sp?) goes into how false identities are created. One of the first steps is to go to a cemetery and look for birthstones with young children that would now be about the age of the person who needs the false ID. This was in the early 70s, so, once you had the name, it was relatively easy to get a birth certificate, and you're well on your way. So, this would have also applied to Philip and Elizabeth, who got their ids in the 60s.

 

Edited b/c "now" and "not" don't mean the same thing.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Loandbehold

[Chaos Theory]

Elizabeth's approach to mothering....Throw Paige in the deep end and see if she sinks or swims.  I call season arc!  Not that I haven't already watched the season three times but something just kinda noticed.   

The scene with the female CIA agent and Elizabeth was interesting.  It was also interesting seeing someone do something bad and then watch their conscience get the better to them.  

Poor Gaad.  Getting nose broken.  Getting beat up by a girl.   I did think the fight scene was choreographed really well though.  Elizabeth didn't fight two guys at once.  She knocked Gaad down and then fought the other guy.  And he did knock her pretty good  She got away by a combination of luck, skill, and experience.  

Guns and Kama Sutra a lethal combination.  

I think the whole point of Gabriel was that The Centre really wanted to recruit Paige and they figured someone that P&E trusted and loved would be able to convince them to do it.  They had a natural mistrust of Granny and sending in someone new again would put all their systems on alert but sending him someone they trusted and who had known them probably for years had the potential to chip away at their defenses.  The Center was playing the long game.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎29‎.‎1‎.‎2015 at 7:19 PM, sistermagpie said:

I think he and Elizabeth are supposed to be the same age. He's from Tobolsk so if he remembered the war it would be very different from her experience in Smolensk (maybe she would have been evacuated closer to him in that time, actually--not that I have much information on this AT ALL). 

Yes, Smolensk was under German occupation whereas Tobolsk wasn't. I think that Elizabeth and her mother must have been evacuated because loyalty of people who lived under occupation was doubted (at least until 1956) which would have prevented her recruition to abroad sevice.

To me, the most interesting information about Elizabeth's past was that his father didn't die valiantly for the motherland, but was executed for desertation. His act might not have been so bad as it seems as Soviet war laws were much harsher than in the West. In any case, it was a huge shame to his family which probably gave Elizabeth an extra reason to serve her country - she had to make good for her father's crime.

As for Philip, I think that the theory about his being an orphan is very good. I want to add one detail. I have always wondered why he doesn't like an ethnically Russian and indeed, he might not be one - among those who were executed as "enemies of people" were many national minorities who had another fatherland across the border (Poles, Germans, Finnish, Greeks, Koreans etc). Their children were sent to orphanage where they were raised in Russian and if they were small enough, they forgot their parents and their native language.

Even better, Philip's parents might actually be Americans who emigrated to the Soviet Union in the early 30ies and were killed in 1937-8.

On ‎29‎.‎1‎.‎2015 at 8:57 PM, chocolatine said:

Oleg said he'd begged his father, but the father told him that political connections shouldn't be used for personal gains. Which is hilarious given that the Soviet Union had one of the most corrupt governments in history.

Correct.

Yet the real reason would have been that no member of nomenklatura would have endangered his own position to plead clemency for a traitor (which wouldn't have  helped anyway), nor Oleg would have been naive enough to ask for it from his father. But this is a show, so I am willing to believe it.  

On ‎31‎.‎1‎.‎2015 at 3:54 AM, RazzleberryPie said:

I think she threw her in the pool, because she was disgusted at how weak Paige was, but wavering about getting in so she nipped that in the bud and tossed her in.  Sink or swim, but don't dither. It's weak and pampered to be too scared to decide to ease into a heated indoor pool, so she tossed her.

A good explanation.

However, when I saw the scene, I didn't believe that it had actually happened but a symbol: Elizabeth imagined how it would be to train Paige to a spy - and she get scared of the thought.

On ‎3‎.‎2‎.‎2015 at 2:31 AM, maraleia said:

Keep in mind with Glasnost and Perestroika coming three years down the line all of these Soviet spies will be out of work. Now the characters don't know that but we do and since Paige will only be 17 in 1985 it will be interesting to see where Joe and Joel take this story.

Oh no,  the Soviet spies wouldn't be out of work because of Glasnost and Perestroika. On the contrary, Gorbatshov would badly need secret information in order to prove that the West would be sincere and keep the treaties.

[Roseanna]

Arkady said that they had listened to the room where Nina met Stan and Nina hadn't reported about two meetings.

I guess one meeting was after Arkady told Oleg that if Nina failed to turn Stan, she would face the treason trial and Olef warned Nina and she came to Stan to told that she was in danger Arkady had invented her and he promise to save her and bought the car where shw could run away.

(I got just now an idea that Arkady wanted to Oleg to tell Nina.)

But what was another meeting?