S06.E03: Jagged Little Tapestry

[camom]

As the mother of a young woman with Down syndrome, I was thrilled that there even was a Becky character on Glee.  And it started out great.  But I am absolutely heartbroken about what they've done to her.  If they wanted to have her treated just like everyone else, somebody should be knocking her into next week for the way she treats people.  And why Sue, who was raised with a sister with Ds wouldn't tell her to knock it off is beyond me.  Yeah, Sue can be vile, but she doesn't normally put up with it from anyone else.

[tab19]

They could have made Santana's reaction much focused and showed how the relationship had grown.  "You are MY friend, and you did that?  You seriously hurt me, Kurt.  I'm not sure I can forgive you."   I think that would have actually affected him much more.  But we had to get another tiresome rant that showed she hasn't grown since high school and ultimately just proved him right that she's still very immature.

Unfortunately, there's no humor in that.  Whether you agree with the content of rant or not, Glee INTENDED the rant to be funny, since Lea Michele's reaction faces clearly signal humor.  (If you don't want to watch the rant, someone has helpfully pulled out JUST Lea's reactions.  She really does a good job. http://theresnobackstage.tumblr.com/post/108325095089/rachels-reactions-to-santanas-smack-down-6-03  Third gif is the best)

 

Admittedly, I was drinking when I watched this episode, but I think the reason I didn't hate or feel bothered by the Becky plot is because zomg is was a plot about girls helping a girl. Whether said girl was deserving is another issue, but I don't even know when the last time that happened was (granted I only watched about 20% of season 5, and even less of season 4). Where a girl character was helped by other girl characters, without any dude stepping in. Because of that, I think I'm willing to overlook Becky's character flaws and any plot issues surrounding her, because from my perspective, it was a fresh.

 

Actually, maybe that's why I liked this episode, as a whole. There was just a lot of action for the ladies. And minimal Blaine.

Wow.  I hadn't thought of it that way.  You're right, that IS a pretty big breakthrough for Glee, and does reconcile me to the plot (if not Becky's characterization).  So yes, little Blaine and actually some girl-focused plots is definitely a good thing.

[caracas1914]

Whether you agree with the content of rant or not, Glee INTENDED the rant to be funny,

 

 

I don't give a shit what their intent was, the execution was tired and not funny.   So from that end, major fail.

Fans who hate Kurt regardless loved it because it gives them an excuse to pile on him, fine if that's what they want do do.  But let's not pretend it's because any character deserved to have that kind of rant heaped on them for  SL reasons.

 

Or else, if they wanted it funny.  They could have had Kurt say something like, " Santana, I know why you're angry and I did ruin you big moment.  Do you accept my apology?  Santana, mollified would have accepted his culpa.

 

Then Kurt could have said.  "Now that that's over, let me tell YOU a few things...."   He could have ranted on her and walked away. The twist being for once Santana didn't get the last word.  Of course , then we would get laments how he unfairly maligned Santana.  ;)

Edited January 18, 2015 by caracas1914

[txhorns79]

Daryl explaining that he likes Becky because she's "funny" was so far from cutting it, I really don't even know where to start.

 

I would just be like: "Becky is awful.  I don't believe for a second you find her funny, unless you, yourself view her as a joke." 

[SNeaker]

I don't give a shit what their intent was, the execution was tired and not funny.   So from that end, major fail.

Fans who hate Kurt regardless loved it because it gives them an excuse to pile on him, fine if that's what they want do do.  But let's not pretend it's because any character deserved to have that kind of rant heaped on them for  SL reasons.

 

I don't hate Kurt at all, and I thought it was funny. I don't always approve when Santana crosses the line from funny mean into mean mean (especially when it's unprovoked), but this to me wasn't one of those times. And it certainly doesn't make me want to pile on Kurt -- if anything, I like Kurt a lot more when the show is willing to poke fun at him rater than taking him so Seriously.

[dohe]

I don't give a shit what their intent was, the execution was tired and not funny.   So from that end, major fail.

Fans who hate Kurt regardless loved it because it gives them an excuse to pile on him, fine if that's what they want do do.  But let's not pretend it's because any character deserved to have that kind of rant heaped on them for  SL reasons.

 

Or else, if they wanted it funny.  They could have had Kurt say something like, " Santana, I know why you're angry and I did ruin you big moment.  Do you accept my apology?  Santana, mollified would have accepted his culpa.

 

Then Kurt could have said.  "Now that that's over, let me tell YOU a few things...."   He could have ranted on her and walked away. The twist being for once Santana didn't get the last word.  Of course , then we would get laments how he unfairly maligned Santana.  ;)

I am a Kurt fan.  That does not mean I refuse to notice his weaknesses or attempt to assign blame to others when he is clearly in the wrong.  When Santana or other characters are in the wrong, I do the same. 

 

One thing I noticed is at some point it swung into a who is to blame for their romance ending between Kurt and Blaine.  And instead of discussion, it becomes I am Team Kurt or I am Team Blaine. 

 

I am not interest in Teams and I certainly don't allow myself liking or disliking a character to inform me overlooking something terrible a character does or distorting what another character does.  Here is what happened in the episode.  An adult proposed to another adult.  A third adult decides to make the proposal about them and attempted to sabotage the moment.  That is, by any concept of proper behavior, a despicable act.  The adult who did the proposal called out the third adult criticizing their self-involvement and their negative attitude. 

 

My liking Kurt and being so-so concerning Santana does not factor in to my feelings.  I view Kurt's actions based on what they were - a loathsome act that he deserved to be called out on. 

 

I also am not going to say Santana spent her rant attacking Kurt's looks because that did not happen.  The rant was overwhelmingly about Kurt's self-involvement and his negativity.  Actually Santana used the correct word - self-aggrandizing.  That is what Kurt sometimes does and, in that moment of that proposal, he did so again.  As a person who has had to deal with homophobia, I think trying to distort Santana's rant into homophobia is in poor taste.  There is no basis for it.  The need to distort the rant into primarily being about looks is problematic.  The need to make it about homophobia is very problematic.  To me it appears an attempt to distort what Santana did in an attempt, as with the desire to minimize Kurt's actions, portray Kurt as a victim.  I think that is unfair to the character of Kurt.  

Edited January 19, 2015 by dohe

[Cranberry]

-Mouth like a cat's ass

-Gerontophile

-Looks like he just removed his top row of dentures every time he smiles

-Breathier more feminine Quinn Fabray

-Sexless self-centered baton-twirler

 

Seemed to be attacking his looks and sexuality to me... and again, I don't like Kurt all that much and I like Santana. No "teams" here.

 

(And no, I didn't find Becky calling the other girls bitches, sluts, and fat funny, either.)

[indeed]

Here is what happened in the episode. An adult proposed to another adult. A third adult decides to make the proposal about them and attempted to sabotage the moment. That is, by any concept of proper behavior, a despicable act.

From your viewpoint. I did not take it as Kurt trying to "steal their thunder" by intentionally sabotaging their moment with a dose of his reality. I think he reacted without considering it wasn't the best moment to voice his concerns. To paraphrase Puck, that kind of stuff (giving unsolicited advice) happens all the time in the choir room. I like Kurt, but he was out of line and deserved a bit of Santana whoopass...and I think he knew it (not that he said something wrong, but that he did it in a wrong way) by standing there and taking it, no matter how long it went on.

ETA: Is Kurt really breathy? I wouldn't pick that to describe him. That and a few other insults makes me wonder if the rant writer knew who he/she was writing for. Now, I know Santana picked on his attire in general, but she really should have gone full force out on those damn neckerchiefs! Seriously, Kurt, Blaine's probably dating Karofsky because he doesn't own one single kerchief--neck, hand, or otherwise.

ETAA: I thought we were past the "sexless" Kurt stage of the show. I guess all of those NYADA guys drooling over him was just a one-off.

Edited January 19, 2015 by indeed

[wayne67]

I don't give a shit what their intent was, the execution was tired and not funny.   So from that end, major fail.

Fans who hate Kurt regardless loved it because it gives them an excuse to pile on him, fine if that's what they want do do.  But let's not pretend it's because any character deserved to have that kind of rant heaped on them for  SL reasons.

 

I hate Kurt and I found a very small portion of it funny (the part about his dress sense and his dance moves) but the majority of it just felt like a long ambling dig that went nowhere. As for whether anyone deserves a rant...

 

Sue verbally abuses everyone as does Becky. At this point in the Glee characters lives they seem to just ignore verbal abuse.

 

The rant would feel more uncalled for if we saw any sort of reaction from Kurt afterwards, he just seemed to be blanking out Santana's rant and he didn't mention it afterwards, he was still preoccupied with Blaine for every other scene afterwards so there was no impact shown/felt.

 

I hate Kurt but I still think he should move on already. He keeps breaking up with Blaine you'd think he'd buy a clue and stop getting back together with him, obviously it ain't a good fit. The reason it didn't work isn't because they're too young, it's because the relationship is a mess.

 

Kurt spent the entire episode projecting his issues with Blaine on everyone else including 2 glee club members giving their first performance together.

[dohe]

-Mouth like a cat's ass

-Gerontophile

-Looks like he just removed his top row of dentures every time he smiles

-Breathier more feminine Quinn Fabray

-Sexless self-centered baton-twirler

 

Seemed to be attacking his looks and sexuality to me... and again, I don't like Kurt all that much and I like Santana. No "teams" here.

 

(And no, I didn't find Becky calling the other girls bitches, sluts, and fat funny, either.)

Saying someone has a sourpuss look, which # 1 and # 3 refer to, all the time is far more a comment on negativity than looks.  Gentrophile is a blatant comment on his conservative mindset regarding marriage (one he goes to when it supports what he feels) and again a comment on his joylessness and negativity.The term breathier refers to having strong feelings and making them known audibly.  That person who goes ugghhh is an example of a breathier individual. 

 

The final "sexless self-centered baton twirler" refers to Kurt expressing a lack of joy, forcing others to see that lack of joy, self-involvement and a desire to be the center of attention.

 

Even cherry picking, it still comes back to negativity and self-involvement. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by dohe

[Myrna123]

Saying someone has a sourpuss look, which # 1 and # 3 refer to, all the time is far more a comment on negativity than looks. Gentrophile is a blatant comment on his conservative mindset regarding marriage (one he goes to when it supports what he feels) and again a comment on his joylessness and negativity.The term breathier refers to having strong feelings and making them known audibly. That person who goes ugghhh is an example of a breathier individual.

The final "sexless self-centered baton twirler" refers to Kurt expressing a lack of joy, forcing others to see that lack of joy, self-involvement and a desire to be the center of attention.

Seemed to be about negativity and self-involvement to me. And I did not have to cherry pick.

Oh, it makes perfect sense now. When you say, "I like Kurt" that refers to how desperately you would like for him to get mowed over by a semi.

Also, I think it's common knowledge that "sexless self-centered baton twirler" refers to forgiving third world debt so we can concentrate on slowing global warming.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Myrna123

[fakeempress]

 

Gentrophile is a blatant comment on his conservative mindset regarding marriage

which is what - that 18-20 year olds are too young to marry? I call that most sensible common sense.

 

Gerontophile was a comment on his love for old folks - a reference to the retirement home episode, and how Kurt was going to intern at another retirement home before coming to Lima, and not about his joylessness and negativity. This, and all the rest is your own spin.

 

The rant was clearly, clearly meant to hurt by insulting his looks and effeminacy. 

[dohe]

Oh, it makes perfect sense now. When you say, "I like Kurt" that refers to how desperately you would like for him to get mowed over by a semi.

Also, I think it's common knowledge that "sexless self-centered baton twirler" refers to forgiving third world debt so we can concentrate on slowing global warming.

Kurt is acting negative.  He is acting self-involved.  He is sucking the life out of the rooms he is in.  He is acting conservative minded based on his own experiences.  He is a character going through a difficult time and he is taking it out on others.  To see this doesn't mean someone dislikes the character.  That is not how it should work.  If a show has a character that does not act like jerk at some point then it is entering fantasy territory.  However when that character acts like a jerk and displays a negative, self-involved attitude, I am not going to go well I love him so I am going to act like the way he is acting is no big deal and point the blame to other people. 

 

Loving a character does not mean excusing all their faults, minimizing their mistakes and trying to focus the blame on others.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2015 by dohe

[Cranberry]

The term breathier refers to having strong feelings and making them known audibly.  That person who goes ugghhh is an example of a breathier individual.

 

Marilyn Monroe is commonly referred to as having had a breathy voice, and Dianna Agron does as well. It was yet another dig implying that Kurt is feminine. Breathier in this context has absolutely nothing to do with making one's feelings known.

 

Also, since when does "baton-twirler" refer to someone who doesn't express joy? Last I checked, it referred to a sport that many people consider on par with figure skating (i.e. not very manly).

[dohe]

Marilyn Monroe is commonly referred to as having had a breathy voice, and Dianna Agron does as well. It was yet another dig implying that Kurt is feminine. Breathier in this context has absolutely nothing to do with making one's feelings known.

 

Also, since when does "baton-twirler" refer to someone who doesn't express joy?

Baton-twirler refers to center of attention which you know very well I posted.  Which is exactly what Kurt made himself during his comments during the proposal.  Right on the top google for breathier by the way. 

 

producing or causing an audible sound of breathing, often related to physical exertion or strong feelings.

 

Edited January 19, 2015 by dohe

[fakeempress]

Again, since when is conservative-minded to think someone barely out of high school is too young for marriage? 

 

 

Baton-twirler refers to center of attention which you know very well I posted.

Which makes as much sense as using adjectives applicable to serial killers, for what Kurt did. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[Cranberry]

If you've never heard very feminine women described as having a breathy voice, and if you're choosing to believe that "breathier more feminine Quinn Fabray" actually meant "a more feminine version of Quinn Fabray who produces an audible sound of breathing due to strong feelings*," I don't know what to tell you other than that we're going to have to agree to strongly disagree.

*I'd say the "more feminine" is more insulting/more relevant to my argument than the "breathier" anyway, but what do I know?

[dohe]

If you've never heard very feminine women described as having a breathy voice, and if you're choosing to believe that "breathier more feminine Quinn Fabray" actually meant "a more feminine version of Quinn Fabray who produces an audible sound of breathing due to strong feelings*," I don't know what to tell you other than that we're going to have to agree to strongly disagree.

*I'd say the "more feminine" is more insulting/more relevant to my argument than the "breathier" anyway, but what do I know?

Well we will just have to disagree on that as we disagree on other things.  For example you think it is no big deal for people to rip into other people's wedding proposal and heck it is even something to be appreciated.  I respectfully disagree.  You believe that your definition of the word breathier overrules the actual definition of breathier.  I respectfully disagree.  You seem to believe certain characters should be given a pass for their actions.  I respectfully disagree. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by dohe

[Ceeg]

Again, since when is conservative-minded to think someone barely out of high school is too young for marriage? 

 

This isn't related to Santana's rant, but since when is that even the reason why Kurt and Blaine broke up? Kurt was grasping at straws ("we were too young") to explain why he and Blaine broke up, and is projecting his own issues onto Santana and Brittany. Santana and Brittany who have been together off and on for 4+ years, who went on a 10-month vacation together, who toured together for 6 months after that, who are now 20ish years old. Santana and Brittany's ages literally have nothing to do with whether their relationship will work or not. Blaine proposed to Kurt when he was still in high school, a few months after Klaine broke up due to cheating, and at a point in time when Kurt and Blaine weren't even actually together. Kurt and Blaine =/= Santana and Brittany, or any other couple who decides to get married in their early 20s.

 

Kurt wasn't trying to voice concern over Brittany and Santana's relationship. He was projecting and he was sad that he's single and he's completely avoiding the real reasons he and Blaine didn't work out. And I don't even buy that Kurt actually believes people shouldn't get married until they're 30, given that he was engaged a year ago, and given spoilers for the rest of the season.

[Cranberry]

As I said in an earlier post, I think Kurt was definitely in the wrong for interrupting a proposal -- an event that only happens once for a couple. Don't put words in my mouth, please. Thinking that Kurt was in the wrong and thinking that Santana was overly harsh are not mutually exclusive.

 

"My definition" of "breathy" is also well-known and commonly used. I do not think that it overrules the dictionary definition.

[indeed]

Marilyn Monroe is commonly referred to as having had a breathy voice, and Dianna Agron does as well.

Exactly what sprang to mind when I heard that. "BreathIer" doesn't mean expressing strong feelings, but how the sound of breathing is affected due to physical exertion or having strong feelings. Big difference IMO.

"Sexless" also brought up memories of Season 2 and references to Kurt's lack of sexiness...not that he's joyless.

Gerontophile was a comment on his love for old folks

Yup, that was my impression as well.

I would think it's more productive to present one's opinions as actual opinions and not straight out tell people they are wrong in their interpretations and explain to them exactly what everything actually means.

Also, since when does "baton-twirler" refer to someone who doesn't express joy?

I don't know. The first thing that comes to mind when I think of a baton twirler is certainly joylessness. (Kidding.)

[dohe]

Cranberry, I am sorry to those that were upset.  Kurt is a saint.  I have recognized that by questioning and heavily criticizing Kurt's behavior, I have attacked Kurt as a human being.  Heck I may have even been homophobic since to, in any way, question Kurt is to revel in homophobia.  As a gay man, I feel awful now.  I didn't think I would ever do that.  But for some reason I actually felt proposals are a one time in life for many people special event.  I forgot that when Kurt rips into it, it is part of his majestic, saintly behavior.  Santana was wrong to be upset.  She should have gone up to Kurt, bowed before him, taken off his shoes, and washed his feet while saying I will immediately call off the wedding to Brittany.  If Kurt wants to show up at weddings proclaiming it is not something to be happy about or show up at funerals to say how disappointed he is people are crying, that is something to be honored.  By criticizing him, those people will be clearcut homophobes. The anger at him for damaging a moment of happiness is homophobia I can relate to when I was beaten as a teen because I was gay.  I feel your pain Kurt.  I know when I was hit in the face with a belt several times for liking a male classmate, it is the same as when anyone dares question you interrupting their special events.   

 

P.S. Of course everyone here condemning the rant and defending Kurt will be just fine as people interrupt their proposals and weddings.  Since what does something like a proposal or wedding really mean when clearly the feelings of some observer are clearly what is meant to be the center of the world. 

[fakeempress]

This isn't related to Santana's rant, but since when is that even the reason why Kurt and Blaine broke up? Kurt was grasping at straws ("we were too young") to explain why he and Blaine broke up, and is projecting his own issues onto Santana and Brittany. Santana and Brittany who have been together off and on for 4+ years, who went on a 10-month vacation together, who toured together for 6 months after that, who are now 20ish years old. Santana and Brittany's ages literally have nothing to do with whether their relationship will work or not. Blaine proposed to Kurt when he was still in high school, a few months after Klaine broke up due to cheating, and at a point in time when Kurt and Blaine weren't even actually together. Kurt and Blaine =/= Santana and Brittany, or any other couple who decides to get married in their early 20s.

 

Kurt wasn't trying to voice concern over Brittany and Santana's relationship. He was projecting and he was sad that he's single and he's completely avoiding the real reasons he and Blaine didn't work out. And I don't even buy that Kurt actually believes people shouldn't get married until they're 30, given that he was engaged a year ago, and given spoilers for the rest of the season.

 

Kurt got engaged on the swell of emotions but he still had the apprehension that it may not work out because they're young. It's not that hard to imagine that people sometimes don't do what they preach because they are emotionally involved. 

I don't think he sees the age issue as literally the age, but that they aren't mature enough for this commitment. Both couples were apart, got back together, got engaged, and Kurt's experience is about what happens afterwards, when people cannot adjust because they haven't matured or are incompatible. I'm outlining how I see his thought process on the basis of what the show wants to tell us, and I'll also say that it happens that people realise they don't work out when they become engaged. 

 

Obviously every couple is different. But Kurt knows Brittany and Santana have been on and off. Does this immediately scream they are now a steady healthy couple? As far as Kurt's view is concerned, he sees them on the path of making the same mistake he and Blaine did, of taking a step they may not be ready for. That's his projecting - again, what the show wants to present. 

 

As to where the show will go, Ryan Murphy is damn set on marrying off as many of them by the age of 21 because they're "soulmates". You draw your own conclusions if these couples aren't going to be divorced in 2 years, if they were real life.

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[Cranberry]

I'm just going to state my opinion very clearly:

 

Kurt should have kept his mouth shut and not interrupted a proposal. It was wrong, it was very rude, and he deserved to be called out for it. He should not project his own insecurities onto others, especially not publicly and during such an important moment.

 

Santana was wrong to insult Kurt's looks and sexuality, but my main issue with her rant was that it sounded more like the writer being cruel about Chris Colfer's looks and sexuality than Santana insulting Kurt.

 

I really like the character of Santana, can take or leave Kurt, and don't have strong feelings one way or the other about Naya Rivera or Chris Colfer.

[fakeempress]

Cranberry, I am sorry to those that were upset.  Kurt is a saint.  I have recognized that by questioning and heavily criticizing Kurt's behavior, I have attacked Kurt as a human being.  Heck I may have even been homophobic since to, in any way, question Kurt is to revel in homophobia.  As a gay man, I feel awful now.  I didn't think I would ever do that.  But for some reason I actually felt proposals are a one time in life for many people special event.  I forgot that when Kurt rips into it, it is part of his majestic, saintly behavior.  Santana was wrong to be upset.  She should have gone up to Kurt, bowed before him, taken off his shoes, and washed his feet while saying I will immediately call off the wedding to Brittany.  If Kurt wants to show up at weddings proclaiming it is not something to be happy about or show up at funerals to say how disappointed he is people are crying, that is something to be honored.  By criticizing him, those people will be clearcut homophobes. The anger at him for damaging a moment of happiness is homophobia I can relate to when I was beaten as a teen because I was gay.  I feel your pain Kurt.  I know when I was hit in the face with a belt several times for liking a male classmate, it is the same as when anyone dares question you interrupting their special events.   

 

P.S. Of course everyone here condemning the rant and defending Kurt will be just fine as people interrupt their proposals and weddings.  Since what does something like a proposal or wedding really mean when clearly the feelings of some observer are clearly what is meant to be the center of the world. 

You continue to grossly misrepresent and exaggerate what your opponents argued.

[Myrna123]

Not everyone thinks a public wedding proposal is the holiest of human interactions that deserves the most respect of any thing ever to take place between two humans ever in the history of the universe. If you're so self-involved that you subject other people to your totally self-centered marriage proposal, one of those people you're forcing to watch might just pipe up with an unsolicited opinion.

If your proposal is so holy and heavenly inspired that someone interrupting it is the most atrocious thing you will ever experience in your life, then for god's sake, do it in private. Now that I think about it, this whole debacle is Santana's fault for being so reprehensibly full of herself that she thinks any of the people she was in Glee with would want to see her propose to someone.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Myrna123

[Ceeg]

 

I don't think he sees the age issue as literally the age, but that they aren't mature enough for this commitment.

 

Nah, Kurt literally said age was the issue.

 

Both couples were apart, got back together, got engaged, and Kurt's experience is about what happens afterwards, when people cannot adjust because they haven't matured or are incompatible. I'm outlining how I see his thought process on the basis of what the show wants to tell us, and I'll also say that it happens that people realise they don't work out when they become engaged

Obviously every couple is different. But Kurt knows Brittany and Santana have been on and off. Does this immediately scream they are now be a steady healthy couple? As far as Kurt's view is concerned, he sees them on the path of making the same mistake he and Blaine did, of taking a step they weren't ready for. That's his projecting. 

 

 

 

Except, again, Kurt and Blaine are totally separate from Brittany and Santana. Brittany and Santana broke up because they were being mature about it. They didn't want long-distance to drag each other down while they were in school, and didn't want to end up hating or hurting each other. That, to me, speaks to their maturity as a couple, considering they made this decision as teenagers. But, Blaine couldn't handle long-distance and fucked a lighthouse. Brittany then left high school, went to Boston, grew up, and realized she still wanted to be with Santana, and they have been committed since then. They have been in a committed relationship and lived together, straight-thru, for 16 months. Blaine and Kurt struggled living together AFTER they were engaged, because they had never spent any amount of time around each other, more than sharing classes together in high school and hanging out on weekends. There literally is no comparison between the functionality of Brittany/Santana and Klaine. At all. 

 

Kurt is using Brittany and Santana's relationship to voice his own issues with his own relationship failures, and his concerns were not valid in any way, with regards to Brittany and Santana, specifically.

 

 

Now that I think about it, this whole debacle is Santana's fault for being so reprehensibly full of herself that she thinks any of the people she was in Glee with would want to see her propose to someone.

 

Everyone seemed into it and were 100% happy for her, barring Kurt. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ceeg

[Cranberry]

I think the problem here lies with assuming that anyone who objected to Santana's rant therefore condoned Kurt's proposal interruption. It's perfectly possible to think that both people were wrong.

[fakeempress]

Not everyone thinks a public wedding proposal is the holiest of human interactions that deserves the most respect of any thing ever to take place between two humans ever in the history of the universe. If you're so self-involved that you subject other people to your totally self-centered marriage proposal, one of those people you're forcing to watch might just pipe up with an unsolicited opinion.

If your proposal is so holy and heavenly inspired that someone interrupting it is the most atrocious thing you will ever experience in your life, then for god's sake, do it in private. Now that I think about it, this whole debacle is Santana's fault for being so reprehensibly full of herself that she thinks any of the people she was in Glee with would want to see her propose to someone.

Slow clap.

 

And didn't Santana said she was proposing there in public mainly because it's going to upset all the single  guys and gals there (cue Puck's not amused expression upon hearing this). I guess when you want to rub it into the single people, you should expect to have to swallow some single people backlash.

[dohe]

I think the problem here lies with assuming that anyone who objected to Santana's rant therefore condoned Kurt's proposal interruption. It's perfectly possible to think that both people were wrong.

Check out Myrna123 and Fake Empress's latest posts.  They see nothing at all wrong with what Kurt did and are blaming Kurt's attack on Santana for having a public proposal. 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2015 by dohe

[Myrna123]

Check out Myrna123 and Fake Empress's latest posts.  They see nothing at all wrong with what Kurt did and are blaming Kurt's attack on Santana for having a public proposal.

And I speak for everyone on this board (except you, I guess. Frowny face!), so BOOM discussion over. I win the internet!

[fakeempress]

Nah, Kurt literally said age was the issue.

 

 

Except, again, Kurt and Blaine are totally separate from Brittany and Santana. Brittany and Santana broke up because they were being mature about it. They didn't want long-distance to drag each other down while they were in school, and didn't want to end up hating or hurting each other. That, to me, speaks to their maturity as a couple, considering they made this decision as teenagers. But, Blaine couldn't handle long-distance and fucked a lighthouse. Brittany then left high school, went to Boston, grew up, and realized she still wanted to be with Santana, and they have been committed since then. They have been in a committed relationship and lived together, straight-thru, for 16 months. Blaine and Kurt struggled living together AFTER they were engaged, because they had never spent any amount of time around each other, more than sharing classes together in high school and hanging out on weekends. There literally is no comparison between the functionality of Brittany/Santana and Klaine. At all. 

 

Kurt is using Brittany and Santana's relationship to voice his own issues with his own relationship failures, and his concerns were not valid in any way, with regards to Brittany and Santana, specifically.

He said "we are too young to marry, all of us". Given how immaturely this group of people have behaved times and again, I don't find it such a stretch of the imagination to think that's what he means by "too young", including about himself. It's not unheard of that "young" signifies immaturity in some contexts, and not literally the age. Words can have more than the purely literal meaning (same as  in the "breathy" argument above). 

 

Obviously Kurt and Blaine are not the samepeople as the girls. Kurt was projecting, but it was out of concern that people their age aren't mature enough. That's how he thinks. This isn't such a rare view, it's actually shared by many in the real world about people, of 18-20. He wasn't trying to hurt of ridicule them, his intentions weren't mean. That he should consider them mature for commitment because they stayed however months together - well, he and Blaine did stay a lot of months together too, and still broke it off, it's not that inconceivable to happen with other people too.

 

Bottom line for me is  He was wrong to project and speak up. Santana was wrong to insult him the way she did. It'd be an occasion for her to prove she's mature enough, by handling it more rationally and by telling him off about what he did wrong - not by ridiculing his appearance, effeminacy, etc. that were totally irrelevant to his "crime". So, together with how she wanted to stick it to the single people in the choir room, I don't think she demonstrated how mature people handle things. That's my opinion. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[fakeempress]

Check out Myrna123 and Fake Empress's latest posts.  They see nothing at all wrong with what Kurt did and are blaming Kurt's attack on Santana for having a public proposal. 

I just repeated what I have said before, that what Kurt did was wrong. We differ how we see and qualify that wrong. I don't see it as "abhorrent", "horrendous" and other attributes which I reserve for actual crimes. 

[Ceeg]

He said "we are too young to marry, all of us". Given how immaturely this group of people have behaved times and again, I don't find it such a stretch of the imagination to think that's what he means by "too young", including about himself. It's not unheard of that "young" signifies immaturity in some contexts, and not literally the age. Words can have more than the purely literal meaning (same as  in the "breathy" argument above). 

 

 

Kurt said, "I have this firm belief that people shouldn't get married until they're 30."  

[fakeempress]

Kurt said, "I have this firm belief that people shouldn't get married until they're 30."  

I refer to what he said in the choir room right after the proposal, which is what Santana heard. He said, "Did you learn nothing from me and Blaine, we are too young to get married, all of us." 

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[Ceeg]

I refer to what he said in the choir room right after the proposal, which is what Santana heard. He said, "Did you learn nothing from me and Blaine, we are too young to get married, all of us." 

Yeah, but my original comment above was in response to you saying "I don't think he sees the age issue as literally the age", which isn't true, given Kurt's actual words in the episode. I don't really care about any of the rest, because him saying that (throwing out an actual age) basically invalidates everything else for me, as literal age was not Kurt and Blaine's problem.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ceeg

[fakeempress]

And I don't think he meant it so literally either, as 30 and not a day earlier. He's said before he wants to "get married by 30, legally". But I don't it's only about the age number with him, ever since the Finn/Rachel engagement. I absolutely don't think he says Brittany and Santana shouldn't marry literally until they are 30. YMMV. It's still the case that he didn't mention any age to Santana, just too young, and he said it not only about her and Brittany but about everybody in the room.

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[jaytee1812]

 Except, again, Kurt and Blaine are totally separate from Brittany and Santana. Brittany and Santana broke up because they were being mature about it. They didn't want long-distance to drag each other down while they were in school, and didn't want to end up hating or hurting each other. That, to me, speaks to their maturity as a couple, considering they made this decision as teenagers. But, Blaine couldn't handle long-distance and fucked a lighthouse. Brittany then left high school, went to Boston, grew up, and realized she still wanted to be with Santana, and they have been committed since then. They have been in a committed relationship and lived together, straight-thru, for 16 months. Blaine and Kurt struggled living together AFTER they were engaged, because they had never spent any amount of time around each other, more than sharing classes together in high school and hanging out on weekends. There literally is no comparison between the functionality of Brittany/Santana and Klaine. At all. 

There is absolutely no evidence in this, or any other episode, that either Brittany or Santana have matured. In fact anyone who was mature at this age would think it sensible to wait to get married. In fact they'd probably wait til they could legally get married, and drink at their wedding!

Santana's rant at Kurt actually proves he was right. She's still at little girl who throws temper tantrums when she doesn't get her own way. I thought this was a stupid storyline because I thought Santana deserved better than a vile little moron who's as dumb as rocks. Now I think them being miserable together is the perfect ending for both characters.

[Camera One]

I thought this episode was decent, mainly because I like Carole King and Alanis Morissette.  That's one of the things I will miss about this show when it's gone.

 

Subplot-wise, it was kinda weak.  I suppose they are giving a last hurrah for each of the supporting and guest characters, and this episode was for Santana/Brittany, Coach Bieste and Becky.  I would have preferred the Santana/Brittany plot to have stretched for two episodes.  It felt a little rushed, unless this is it for their visits.  The Coach Bieste thing was out-of-nowhere, and I wish they wrote something more organic to her character.  As others have said, with Becky, it's not that she has Down's Syndrome.  It's that she is a mean person, so why would that "nice guy" be interested in her.  

 

Quinn and especially Puck were completely wasted in this episode.  They should have gotten their own episode.  I don't get why everyone is so mean to Tina.  Is it supposed to be funny?  Why would Quinn be making digs about her university and why would Brittany be proclaiming she tunes Tina out?  I thought Brittany's dialogue in this episode was a bit too "normal" a lot of the time, especially when they wrote her as the voice of reason.  I think to Kurt?  That just felt really out of character.

 

Though on the whole, I can't really take the so-called "character development" on this show that seriously.  I didn't mind Kurt moping over his ended relationship with Blaine, since it worked alright with the song numbers.  I didn't mind the Kurt/Rachel finding their balance in co-leading the Club, even though their bickering is a little tiresome.  

 

And Bieste telling Sue and Sam that she loved them at the end?  Give me a break.  Sue has a heart whenever it's convenient and next week, she's no doubt back to bitch on wheels.  

[indeed]

How old are they supposed to be now? If Brittany and Santana wait a few months/take a few months to plan their wedding, they probably will be old enough to drink alcohol since Brittany was held back a year and Kurt's a junior now (IIRC), so that would be @20 and they're all peers.

So Santana just assumed Brittany (the "genius", as she reminded us 4-5 times this episode--*eyeroll*) would go to the same college as her and Brittany didn't say anything. Since they're probably not going to get much focus the rest of the season, it could just mean she's totally onboard with it, but maybe Brittany will speak up with a different plan later? I can't say I paid much attention to their conversation in the bedroom.

I thought this episode was decent, mainly because I like Carole King and Alanis Morissette.

Me, too. I liked all of the songs. I particularly thought the song selections suited Kurt's voice and I liked his duet with Blaine (can't always say that!). I had thought Tina was going to be featured in the final song when she was standing up there with Rachel and Kurt, but she was just relegated to humming/ooh-ing or whatever it's called (or did I miss her singing in the early part?). Edited January 19, 2015 by indeed

[dizzyizzy01]

Santana was wrong to insult Kurt's looks and sexuality, but my main issue with her rant was that it sounded more like the writer being cruel about Chris Colfer's looks and sexuality than Santana insulting Kurt.

 

 

I think this is might be a bit of a projection.  Besides the mouth comment, nothing in the rant was about physical appearances.  And Kurt's always been portrayed (rightly or wrongly) as an effeminate character, and it's never been about the actor's sexuality.  

 

That's not to say I think Santana's in the right with her off the wall rants.  I think both characters were wrong and Santana took it a bit far; however, that's what her character always does.  

[wayne67]

I'm confused by Kurt, he dumped Blaine and now he's upset that he can't have him back when he's lonely.

 

I wish all these people would move far far away from each other and stay away from each other and their highschool. Pretend to be well adjusted adults who can move on with the rest of their lives.

 

All their relationships with each other are some dysfunctional combination of sexual, stupid or shallow.

 

As for Santana and Britney. They could have a long engagement. Proposing doesn't necessarily mean you're obligated to marry within the next 5 minutes.

Also didn't Will propose to someone in the Choir room in front of his students which is far more maladjusted than Santana proposing in front of her 'friends'.

 

I may not retain much from this show...

Edited January 19, 2015 by wayne67

[SadieT]

I've never been okay with the show using the actors' physical appearance to mock the character, but I disagree with those posters saying Santana's rant at Kurt was in any worse than her previous rants at others like Finn or Rachel, where she also targeted their physical appearances.

 

-Mouth like a cat's ass

-Gerontophile

-Looks like he just removed his top row of dentures every time he smiles

-Breathier more feminine Quinn Fabray

-Sexless self-centered baton-twirler

 

Seemed to be attacking his looks and sexuality to me... and again, I don't like Kurt all that much and I like Santana. No "teams" here.

 Only 3 of the 5 things you listed are actually about Kurt's looks and sexuality, and both comments about his appearance are actually about the same physical attribute (his mouth). Gerontophile has literally nothing to do with appearance or sexuality, it just means he's weirdly fond of old people. And being called sexless isn't technically an insult about his appearance or sexuality, she could be implying he's not a sexual person because he's so uptight (Rachel has been criticized in a similar matter). And the baton-twirler comment... well he has literally twirled a baton on the show, hasn't he?

 

I think some people who are upset that Kurt got called out in such a spectacular way are making this more about his appearance/sexuality than it actually was in order to give some sort of validity to their personal outrage over their favorite being insulted. But most of the rant was about Kurt personality, personal likes and his performance style. 

 

Santana was wrong to insult Kurt's looks and sexuality, but my main issue with her rant was that it sounded more like the writer being cruel about Chris Colfer's looks and sexuality than Santana insulting Kurt.

Considering the rant ran over a minute and a half long, 3 comments or so that touched on Kurt's appearance and sexuality doesn't exactly constitute a heinous attack on Chris Colfer's appearance unlike anything we've ever seen before. We've in fact seen similar or worse treatment of other actors and I don't ever recall this level of outrage over the show's potshots at Cory, Lea, Mark, Dianna, Jenna, etc. So while I agree that those few comments from Santana about Kurt's appearance were uncalled for and unnecessarily cruel to Chris, the rant as a whole was not out of line with what we've seen from the show in the past so I really don't get why it's suddenly a problem for some people when it never was in the past.  

 

Not everyone thinks a public wedding proposal is the holiest of human interactions that deserves the most respect of any thing ever to take place between two humans ever in the history of the universe. If you're so self-involved that you subject other people to your totally self-centered marriage proposal, one of those people you're forcing to watch might just pipe up with an unsolicited opinion.

If your proposal is so holy and heavenly inspired that someone interrupting it is the most atrocious thing you will ever experience in your life, then for god's sake, do it in private. Now that I think about it, this whole debacle is Santana's fault for being so reprehensibly full of herself that she thinks any of the people she was in Glee with would want to see her propose to someone.

 

Blaine proposed to Kurt in front of literally everyone they've ever met, including Santana who was gracious enough to show up and be genuinely happy for her friends. But I guess Santana thinking her friends would be equally happy for her when she proposed to the woman she loves was crazy.  

 

People are offended because it's against one of their favorite characters/actors.  Santana did this to Rachel last season and a lot of the same people probably thought it was awesome and Rachel deserved the smackdown.  It's all perspective.  The only real objection I have is how long it was.  She could have a left out a couple of the physical insults, but that's nothing new for this show.  Her rant wasn't any worse than calling Quinn tubbers, insulting Artie's disability, Rachel's nose, Finn's physique, etc.  It's just who it's directed at that got to certain people this time. 

 

As I've said I think the comments Kurt's physical appearance were cruel and unnecessary, but I do agree that for some it simply boils down to whether or not they like the character on the receiving end of one of Santana's epic rants. I too recall that some of the very posters who are now so outraged by Santana's insults against Kurt, were more than okay with her insulting rants against Rachel last season and even thought Rachel deserved it, so the moral outrage is coming across as hypocritical in certain places. If someone's horrified that the show insulted Chris's smile but didn't have a problem when they mocked Lea's nose or Cory's body or Jenna's weight or Chord's mouth or whatever else, then it's pretty obvious that it really boils down to their feelings about the character/actor. 

 

 As bad as it was to see Kurt verbally flayed, it made Santana look like a psychotic bitch because her response was so out of proportion.

 

I don't think it made Santana look like anything other than herself. That's what she does. She's done it to other characters in the past when they crossed her, like Finn and Rachel. She warmly welcomed Sam back to Glee club with a dozen insults about the shape and size of his mouth. She's mocked Artie for being in a wheel chair in the past. And she's said some pretty awful things to Brody about his appearance in season 4. If it's never been a problem in the past I don't see why it suddenly means she's a psychotic bitch now. She didn't cross any lines she hasn't previously. Kurt wronged Santana and Santana reacted like one would expect Santana to react.  And Kurt didn't even look bothered by it, he looked almost bored, like he'd heard it all before and didn't care. Rachel looked more outraged on his behalf than he did. 

 

[fakeempress]

Santana insults everybody (except Brittany) all the time. There is nobody else who does that among the group, I don't count  Becky as part of the group. Santana is also this person who will dish it, but can't take it. 

 

This is what she found highly amusing to say about Rachel a day or so before the proposal, in public, and in front of Rachel's students:

 

Where was Rachel's rant to Santana?

 

I don't believe that in real life these people would still be friends, especially with Santana. Nobody I know will tolerate their "friend" insulting them in this manner on a regular basis, and in turn treat them kindly and with respect. 

 

In the same way, I don't believe anyone will be pining over an ex like Blaine, especially when this ex hooks up with their ex-bully. This is total and complete BS. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by fakeempress

[wayne67]

No one would be friends with any of these people, I don't think. None of them have ever been great to one another.(Although, maybe Tina,Artie, Mercedes, and Mike, seem like normal people and explains why the show forgets they exist from time to time) And I wholeheartedly agree Blaine isn't worth pining over. 

 

ITA it's why I laugh hysterically when they talk about how Glee Club made them all friends.

 

These people can't even follow through on a pact to meet up which implies that they didn't talk to each other for the entire time between last season and the start of this season otherwise they would have been like I'm busy or I CBF'd ...

 

Rachel can't stop being an egomaniac to let her supposed best friend talk during her 'lessons' or help him deal with the fact that the guy he dumped moved on...

70% of these characters could die in a fire and I wouldn't care. As for the people who don't irritate me, it's mostly due to lack of screen time as in the new noobs, Mike and Guitar guy being the ones that spring to mind.

Edited January 19, 2015 by wayne67

[Coxfires]

Considering the rant ran over a minute and a half long, 3 comments or so that touched on Kurt's appearance and sexuality doesn't exactly constitute a heinous attack on Chris Colfer's appearance unlike anything we've ever seen before.

 

 

It is not just his appearance though. Colfer's fondness for old people (as weird as some people find it, and I get that) is something he has voiced many times, hence why he included it on the episode he wrote, and his "baton-twirling" abilities are also one of his hobbies, that the writers decided to use later in the show. Adding this to the general appearance of the actor (which, nice, because unless he decides to use surgery on it, that isn't something he has any influence on), it really sounds like attacking the actor rather than the character.

 

I don't think anyone here disputes the fact that Kurt screwep up by interjecting the way he did and at the time he did it. This is rude, but certainly not "despicable" or "horrendous", otherwise, regarding how awful Santana has been to everyone since D1, she really is the worst human being on earth and I don't think that's the case. Kurt's words were uncalled for, that is obvious, but Santana's rant was just awfully written and misdirected. I totally agree that both situations aren't mutually exclusive.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Coxfires

[dizzyizzy01]

Colfer's fondness for old people (as weird as some people find it, and I get that) is something he has voiced many times, hence why he included it on the episode he wrote, and his "baton-twirling" abilities are also one of his hobbies, that the writers decided to use later in the show. 

 

 

That stuff is still part of Kurt's character though.  Regardless of how these facets of Kurt's character was introduced, by his pen or the writers', they are still part of the character hence Santana's rant is still directed at Kurt and not at Chris.  I think people are just reading into it as an attack on Chris.  Baton-twirling is a talent he brought to his character on the show.  Kurt in canon likes old people and was going to work with old people as part of his work study.  It's part of the character of Kurt even though some of those characteristics apply to Chris as well.  I think you're handicapping the majority of the show if you can't comment on things that apply to the actors in real-life. It's almost like saying characters on the show can't comment on Mr. Schue's terribly awkward rapping because Matt "Matty Fresh" likes hip-hop.  Or commenting on Rachel's love of Barbra Streisand.  Or Finn's awful dancing.  There is actor/character bleed on this show.  There's no getting around that.

 

I do agree that Santana has a pretty awful personality a lot of the time, and if it were real-life it seems unlikely that any of these people (sans Brittney) would be friends with her.

Edited January 19, 2015 by dizzyizzy01

[Sara2009]

I'm confused by Kurt, he dumped Blaine and now he's upset that he can't have him back when he's lonely.

I wish all these people would move far far away from each other and stay away from each other and their highschool. Pretend to be well adjusted adults who can move on with the rest of their lives.

All their relationships with each other are some dysfunctional combination of sexual, stupid or shallow.

As for Santana and Britney. They could have a

long engagement. Proposing doesn't necessarily mean you're obligated to marry within the next 5

minutes.

Also didn't Will propose to someone in the Choir room in front of his students which is far more maladjusted than Santana proposing in front of her 'friends'.

I may not retain much from this show...

Will actually proposed at the pool.

Tbh, I haven't had an issue with any of the public proposals on this show. They've all made sense to me in the context of " Glee," where everybody is overly involved in each others' lives.

[Myrna123]

I think some people who are upset that Kurt got called out in such a spectacular way are making this more about his appearance/sexuality than it actually was in order to give some sort of validity to their personal outrage over their favorite being insulted.

I think it's true that we don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. But that means it's just as possible that viewers who are delighted that Kurt got called out in such a spectacular way are making this less about his appearance/sexuality than it actually was in order to give some sort of validity to their lack of personal outrage over their less favorite being insulted.

[dohe]

I don't think anyone here disputes the fact that Kurt screwep up by interjecting the way he did and at the time he did it. This is rude, but certainly not "despicable" or "horrendous", otherwise, regarding how awful Santana has been to everyone since D1, she really is the worst human being on earth and I don't think that's the case. Kurt's words were uncalled for, that is obvious, but Santana's rant was just awfully written and misdirected. I totally agree that both situations aren't mutually exclusive.

 

Actually several people have focused solely on Santana's rant and have stated they thought Kurt's comments were understandable.  Just on the prior page, Santana was blamed for Kurt's comments due to doing a public proposal (later editing to act as if okay Kurt maybe should not have said something when posts were pointed out).  And then there is the deciding that the rant is a personal attack on Chris Colfer. 

 

And yes what Kurt did is despicable and horrendous.  Attacking people's proposals, interrupting weddings, making caustic remarks at funerals, etc. is not just being rude.   There are moments when behavior goes way beyond rude and Kurt's actions are one of those moments. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by dohe