Spoilers With Speculation

[gonzosgirrl]

34 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Promo pics from E3

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-the-scar-description-a-wayward-guest/184050/

like this one

 

 

I know most of you are unhappy that Michael seems to be gone for now....but I really missed this guy.

He is simply gorgeous.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He is simply gorgeous.

It's remarkable how he can wear the same clothing, not really change his hair and looks like a completely different person than he was as Michael.  Jensen Fucking Ackles. It's phenomenal acting.

[Jonesy]

Yes it doesn't seem Michael is gone from the show--with the title card and all...that doesn't mean Michael will go back into Dean even though Michael says he own Dean.  Angels say crap but circumstances could have changed.  We don't know the why or how of Michael leaving.   

[mertensia]

On 10/20/2018 at 6:56 PM, DeeDee79 said:

Random question because I haven't seen much discussion about it here: has there been anything posted about when Ketch will return? I never thought that I would feel this way but I'm interested at what he's been up to trying to locate Dean.

Ketch is kinda busy being Aaron Rodgers's obnoxious football agent at the moment....

[gonzosgirrl]

On 10/21/2018 at 1:31 AM, catrox14 said:

It's remarkable how he can wear the same clothing, not really change his hair and looks like a completely different person than he was as Michael.  Jensen Fucking Ackles. It's phenomenal acting.

It's all in the eyes. "Dean" has emotion and humanity, where "Michael" is cold and dead.

[Myrelle]

On 10/21/2018 at 1:25 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

He is simply gorgeous.

 

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's all in the eyes. "Dean" has emotion and humanity, where "Michael" is cold and dead.

It's mind boggling, but in an Amazingly Good way...*loves*...

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't think this is really a spoiler given the vagueness, but it sure could fuel speculation. From Ty Olsson's Insta:

 

 

In case you can't see the image, in the comments on a photo Ty posted last night, a comment reads (sic): I had M&G with Jense today and asked him how bad Dean wants Benny back. And the answer was very promesing

Make of it what you will.

[tessathereaper]

On 10/20/2018 at 8:17 PM, ILoveReading said:

Dean is Michael's ideal vessel.  Why would he give it up?

And frankly I don't give a damn about Micheal if it isn't about Dean and Dean being his vessel.  Michael can do what he wants, it's same old same old if it doesn't directly and importantly involve and focus on Dean.  

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

And frankly I don't give a damn about Micheal if it isn't about Dean and Dean being his vessel.  Michael can do what he wants, it's same old same old if it doesn't directly and importantly involve and focus on Dean.  

If they had never made Dean his vessel or never had him possess Dean, fine, I could live with that, not happy about it, but could live with it. But now they have given it to us, and to give it over to another character without Jensen playing Michael for more than two episodes, is a huge bait and switch. And fuels my growing contempt for the showrunners.

To expand my thoughts, I would be very surprised if Jensen asked it to be this short other than him thinking it's a bad role for him and not wanting to be the fall guy if it's a bad SL. But that one is hard to fathom because by all accounts he doesn't read ahead so how could he have made that determination at the beginning of the season?

[Pondlass1]

Dean's coiled tight as a spring, but Michael's relaxed and observant.  The look in the eyes is noticed first, but it's also body posture, shoulders, coolness.... it's all different and so clever.

When Sarah MG played a dual role, Future Buffy had a scar across her face so we could tell.  But Jensen didn't need this for his portrayal in The End.  We knew exactly which Dean was speaking just by the expression and the eyes.  Even in close ups when we couldn't see the clothes... we knew.

We've been waiting for Michael Dean for a long time.  But now that he's here I don't think The Powers know what to do with him.  I hope they have some kind of plan.  Jensen is well able to depict the inner struggle.  We'd know when Michael or Dean was in charge of the host.  We'd maybe not know if Michael is pretending Dean's back.  It would be an acting tour de force for Jensen.   But the writers' imaginations are so limited and then there's the We Want Dean Back bunch from twitter.

I'd love to see Benny return. Ty has chemistry with Jensen.  And I think there's more to their story. 

[catrox14]

I'm guessing they will bring Rowena back to find a spell to remove the Mark of Michael, since I think it's safe to assume that scar on Dean is from Michael. His way of telling Dean he owns him.  Also, I noticed that Michael was wearing a ring on his pinky finger.  Did the Christian Keyes' Michael have that ring? I don't recollect either way. I wonder if that ring has any significance.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

We've been waiting for Michael Dean for a long time.  But now that he's here I don't think The Powers know what to do with him.  I hope they have some kind of plan.  Jensen is well able to depict the inner struggle.  We'd know when Michael or Dean was in charge of the host.  We'd maybe not know if Michael is pretending Dean's back.  It would be an acting tour de force for Jensen.   But the writers' imaginations are so limited and then there's the We Want Dean Back bunch from twitter.

I think that Michael has left Dean and that he's not hiding in him. I also think that ERL was not lying about Michael not being the Big Bad this season. I think that something happened BTS that changed that, though.

I'm now wondering if we're going to find out that AUMichael was killed or taken out of commission given that one spoiler we got about Michael being taught a lesson by some monster.

If AUMichael is still alive then I'm going to spec that he won't be back until the end of the season and by then they could give his vessel storyline to any other character that they want.

I'm now beginning to feel as if the scar on Dean might not even have that much to do with the possession storyline.

I think that we will know who they changed the Big Bad of this season to after this week's episode. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

I'm now wondering if we're going to find out that AUMichael was killed or taken out of commission given that one spoiler we got about Michael being taught a lesson by some monster.

Oh,,,I missed that spoiler! Can you link it?

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Oh,,,I missed that spoiler! Can you link it?

I thought it was in that same ERL interview.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I'm now beginning to feel as if the scar on Dean might not even have that much to do with the possession storyline.

The scar looks like wings to me so I do think it will have some significance for a hot minute... And I do hope they address what happened to Castiel's hand print LOL. Did Cas just heal it at some point?

Man, these supernatural creatures sure do like leaving their literal scars on Dean...the only one that didn't do it on purpose was Castiel IMO.

Just now, Myrelle said:

I thought it was in that same ERL interview.

Oh,  I didn't read that whole thing. It annoyed me too much!

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I'm now beginning to feel as if the scar on Dean might not even have that much to do with the possession storyline.

This fits with the spoiler that says that they end up on the same case as Jody while searching for what happens to Dean.  My guess is Jody found a body with the exact same scar. 

Kaia is in this ep so it wouldn't' surprise me if we find out that Michael came across Kaia and she killed or seriously disabled him and got him out of Dean and then marked him (Dean), as a future victim.

[Myrelle]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm guessing they will bring Rowena back to find a spell to remove the Mark of Michael, since I think it's safe to assume that scar on Dean is from Michael. His way of telling Dean he owns him.  Also, I noticed that Michael was wearing a ring on his pinky finger.  Did the Christian Keyes' Michael have that ring? I don't recollect either way. I wonder if that ring has any significance.

I noticed the ring, too.

I was thinking that Rowena will be brought back to help the Nougat Baby, but I could be wrong about that. 

I could be wrong about the scar, too.

I actually hope that I am and that it's something that keeps Dean at the center of the Michael myth-arc(or the myth-arc that they're going to switch to), but I really don't feel that we're going to see Dean as the vessel of AUMichael again except in flashbacks.

[Jonesy]

Michael's wings in the title card shows Michael stays significant regardless of what body he ends up in(my guess is Nick)--don't think tptb changed anything...they never intended for him to stay in Dean forever(that is not the show--the brothers together with a side order of Cas).  Even if Michael is around doesn't mean he ends up the ultimate big bad--still think it could be one of the super vamps or werewolves may end up that AND give Dean the scar.

 

PS--about Cas's handmark on Dean--forget the exact moment but it was a time Dean was brought back to life and/or back to his normal body and age that wiped his body clean which included wiping off the hand.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Jakes

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This fits with the spoiler that says that they end up on the same case as Jody while searching for what happens to Dean.  My guess is Jody found a body with the exact same scar. 

Kaia is in this ep so it wouldn't' surprise me if we find out that Michael came across Kaia and she killed or seriously disabled him and got him out of Dean and then marked him (Dean), as a future victim.

Yeah, I was also thinking about what Dabb said concerning the storylines coming together towards the end of the season with the reassurance that it would be more of a folding in of the Wayward stuff into the Winchesters' story, rather than the other way around; but with all the inconsistencies in the spoilers that we've gotten already, that could have changed, too.

And that makes your thoughts sound just as plausible as any, at this point.

After reading that ERL interview, it DOES now feel to me as if they're going to take a step towards moving away from the Michael storyline in this next episode, though.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This fits with the spoiler that says that they end up on the same case as Jody while searching for what happens to Dean.  My guess is Jody found a body with the exact same scar. 

Kaia is in this ep so it wouldn't' surprise me if we find out that Michael came across Kaia and she killed or seriously disabled him and got him out of Dean and then marked him (Dean), as a future victim.

Didn't Dark!Kaia have some kind of spear-like weapon? Could his scar be from that?

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Yeah, I was also thinking about what Dabb said concerning the storylines coming together towards the end of the season with the reassurance that it would be more of a folding in of the Wayward stuff into the Winchesters' story, rather than the other way around; but with all the inconsistencies in the spoilers that we've gotten already, that could have changed, too.

I wouldn't be surprised if Michael found Kaia a superior vessel and Michael moved on.

[Myrelle]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Didn't Dark!Kaia have some kind of spear-like weapon? Could his scar be from that?

She did.

Jody asked if it felt like a "fork", so maybe it's a forked spear.

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Michael found Kaia a superior vessel and Michael moved on.

IDK. RL saying he's taught a lesson kind of makes me feel as if the monster triumphs and I definitely could see Dabb having his Wayward waif character be triumphant over even an archangel.

It would be typical of his writing and showrunning, too.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

She did.

Jody asked it felt like a "fork", so maybe it's a forked spear.

Oh jeez so there we go.sigh.

[Jonesy]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Michael found Kaia a superior vessel and Michael moved on.

Yes I could see the scar possibly being from Kaia or the super monsters Michael made--about Michael in Kaia...that would make sense if Michael could use her to jump universes(if that is possible with her as Michael).

[ILoveReading]

http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/Kaia_Nieves_(The_Bad_Place)

Here is a picture of Kaia with the spear.  I can't find a picture of the top.

There is an episode coming up called The Spear.  So it seems like Dabb dropped the Michael plot for what probably would have been the first season of WayWard Sues. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Lemuria]

I am so tired of everything in the universe ending up more powerful than angels, much less archangels.  A hybrid may be more versatile than either of its parents but it will never be stronger than a pureblood at the pureblood's specialty: the offspring of a thoroughbred and a draft horse may be able to pull heavier weights than a purebred thoroughbred but it will never outrun one.  

This bothered me with Jesse and then with Jack--especially as nephilim were destroyed easily in the Bible (and in the show, with the one we saw in season 8)--and now with hybrid monsters.  None of them should ever be able to take Michael down, especially as the monsters are not bringing magical/divine power to the equation, just fangs and greater speed and strength than a human.

I hate that the writers on the show never have a coherent plan, and just write whatever catches their fancy, even if it makes not sense and/or destroys previous canon.

[Myrelle]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/Kaia_Nieves_(The_Bad_Place)

Here is a picture of Kaia with the spear.  It's hard to see the top of it.

There is an episode coming up called The Spear.  So it seems like Dabb dropped the Michael plot for what probably would have been the first season of WayWard Sues. 

Yup.

Unfortunately, that's what I'm now thinking, too. 

[Jonesy]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/Kaia_Nieves_(The_Bad_Place)

Here is a picture of Kaia with the spear.  I can't find a picture of the top.

There is an episode coming up called The Spear.  So it seems like Dabb dropped the Michael plot for what probably would have been the first season of WayWard Sues. 

Dabb imo didn't drop anything--Michael was NEVER going to stay in Dean.  Nor should he--I never liked when it Dean, Sam or Cas changed too much for too long.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Dabb imo didn't drop anything--Michael was NEVER going to stay in Dean.  Nor should he--I never liked when it Dean, Sam or Cas changed too much for too long.

Will respond in Bitch/Jerk

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Jakes said:

Dabb imo didn't drop anything--Michael was NEVER going to stay in Dean.  Nor should he--I never liked when it Dean, Sam or Cas changed too much for too long.

Well Jensen, and the hints and spec at the time of the finale sure made it seem like it was longer than 1.95 episodes.

I've said it before and still believe it - Dabb is going to cram his spin-off down our throats whether we like it or not.

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, Lemuria said:

I hate that the writers on the show never have a coherent plan, and just write whatever catches their fancy, even if it makes not sense and/or destroys previous canon.

I think that this has never been more apparent in the entire writing history of this show than it is now.

[Jonesy]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Well Jensen, and the hints and spec at the time of the finale sure made it seem like it was longer than 1.95 episodes.

I've said it before and still believe it - Dabb is going to cram his spin-off down our throats whether we like it or not.

But as you remember most here predicted way before the season started that it would be about 2 episodes--I thought more, but they were right.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Jakes said:

But as you remember most here predicted way before the season started that it would be about 2 episodes--I thought more, but they were right.

Most who predicted that (including me) did so because of bitterness over past Dean storylines and zero faith in Dabb. But Jensen and the general PR (around and including SDCC) was that it was going to be a longer arc. IMO it's disingenuous to say otherwise.

[Jonesy]

I will add this about Dabb shoving Waywards down our throats instead of Michael...Dean as Michael was Dabb's idea as Singer relayed it while Wayward was Berens baby.  That said still think Michael stays but he was never destined to stay in Dean.  

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Most who predicted that (including me) did so because of bitterness over past Dean storylines and zero faith in Dabb. But Jensen and the general PR (around and including SDCC) was that it was going to be a longer arc. IMO it's disingenuous to say otherwise.

We only had hints beforehand--which is why most predicted otherwise because it was far from definitive what they are going to do...hints mean little with not much evidence.  Which also means we have no idea they all of sudden switched things.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Jakes said:

I will add this about Dabb shoving Waywards down our throats instead of Michael...Dean as Michael was Dabb's idea as Singer relayed it while Wayward was Berens baby.  That said still think Michael stays but he was never destined to stay in Dean.  

Wayward was Berens baby? He would have been showrunner, but come on - Wayward was Dabb's baby all the way.

Clearly Michael isn't over, but IMO he was destined to stay in Dean until he was defeated, and Dabb & Company reneged. The reasons behind it will probably never come out, and my spec belongs elsewhere, so I'll leave it at that. Agree to disagree.

[Jonesy]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Wayward was Berens baby? He would have been showrunner, but come on - Wayward was Dabb's baby all the way.

Clearly Michael isn't over, but IMO he was destined to stay in Dean until he was defeated, and Dabb & Company reneged. The reasons behind it will probably never come out, and my spec belongs elsewhere, so I'll leave it at that. Agree to disagree.

I disagree on the Berens--he wrote it, he was the show runner and Dabb was staying as show runner on the mothership.   Yeah agree to disagree because I always thought Michael was leaving Dean and then would go to another body--don't think they changed that later.

[ILoveReading]

I think Dean is Dean.  If (big if) Michael is still possessing then I think he gave Dean control back and is dormant, and observing.  Mostly because while, I would like to see Jensen be given the opportunity to pay Dean and not Dean at the same time, its not going to send a good message that none of Dean's family cant' tell the difference.  The show would have to basically throw every other character under the bus.  I don't see them doing that. 

[Jonesy]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think Dean is Dean.  If (big if) Michael is still possessing then I think he gave Dean control back and is dormant, and observing.  Mostly because while, I would like to see Jensen be given the opportunity to pay Dean and not Dean at the same time, its not going to send a good message that none of Dean's family cant' tell the difference.  The show would have to basically throw every other character under the bus.  I don't see them doing that. 

You would think when Cas is in Dean's head he could sense if something else is in there--unless it's so powerful that it's shielded.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well Jensen, and the hints and spec at the time of the finale sure made it seem like it was longer than 1.95 episodes.

I've said it before and still believe it - Dabb is going to cram his spin-off down our throats whether we like it or not.

Yup. I think if the spinoff had been picked up, we likely would have gotten a much different and longer Michael arc.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Jakes said:

You would think when Cas is in Dean's head he could sense if something else is in there--unless it's so powerful that it's shielded.

Cas didn't detect the demon Kip before he revealed his black eyes, when he's always been able to before. Given that Cas' powers wax and wane as the plot needs, I won't put any value on Cas' ability to detect if Michael, or for that matter, Lucifer still being in their respective meatsuits, because it's totally unreliable now.  And IMO it harms Cas' characterization unless they explain why his powers are all over the place.

[Jonesy]

51 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cas didn't detect the demon Kip before he revealed his black eyes, when he's always been able to before. Given that Cas' powers wax and wane as the plot needs, I won't put any value on Cas' ability to detect if Michael, or for that matter, Lucifer still being in their respective meatsuits, because it's totally unreliable now.  And IMO it harms Cas' characterization unless they explain why his powers are all over the place.

It's true that's inconsistent--I mean you could make the excuse Cas was so frazzled by looking for Dean that he was out of his head and it blinded him with the demons...perhaps a poor excuse but one can make that if one wants.  Though in episode 3 when he is directly looking inside Dean's head, you'd think he could since Dean asked him to do it because he knows Cas can.

[BoxManLocke]

Sorry, maybe I missed something, but I keep seeing you guys talk about Kaia and WS in several threads, is this just speculation or is there an article somewhere ?

 

All I've seen that's remotely connected to Wayward is Jody coming back.

[ILoveReading]

20 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

Sorry, maybe I missed something, but I keep seeing you guys talk about Kaia and WS in several threads, is this just speculation or is there an article somewhere ?

 

All I've seen that's remotely connected to Wayward is Jody coming back.

There were several articles.  They got the majority of them in the off season actually.  It said that the characters would be in multiple eps, and we would see Donna again and that he (Dabb) had found a way to incorporate the waywards into the Winchester story rather than the other way around.

[ahrtee]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

There were several articles.  They got the majority of them in the off season actually.  It said that the characters would be in multiple eps, and we would see Donna again and that he (Dabb) had found a way to incorporate the waywards into the Winchester story rather than the other way around.

And Kaia is a guest star in the upcoming ep. 3.

[BoxManLocke]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

There were several articles.  They got the majority of them in the off season actually.  It said that the characters would be in multiple eps, and we would see Donna again and that he (Dabb) had found a way to incorporate the waywards into the Winchester story rather than the other way around.

 

Thanks. I don't think that necessarily means they'll take over the season's plot, but we'll see. Besides this year's plot wasn't shaping up to be better than the last.

[Wynne88]

I think that a lot of the plot lines are driven by the J's availability.  As they've cut back on the number of hours they're willing to work, Dabb has to fill in the space with other people and their stories.  If they connect at all with the Winchester's, he's probably done as well as he is capable of.  

[juppschmitz]

21 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I wonder if that ring has any significance.

With this show runnerand these writers nothing has significance. Nothing.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I think that a lot of the plot lines are driven by the J's availability.  As they've cut back on the number of hours they're willing to work, Dabb has to fill in the space with other people and their stories.  If they connect at all with the Winchester's, he's probably done as well as he is capable of.  

If they were still at 23 episodes I might agree but  there are only 20 this season to help them have more time off.  Dabb said they had to make the stories less complicated...but to me adding more people overly complicates things/clutters up the eps we do have.  JMHO

[Bobcatkitten]

Yeah, cutting to 20 episodes if where they are getting more time with the family. That shouldn't have anything to do with them not being in the episodes they are doing. 

[S Cook Productions]

9 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Yeah, cutting to 20 episodes if where they are getting more time with the family. That shouldn't have anything to do with them not being in the episodes they are doing. 

I have never understood then why they don't utilize Cas more...he's in half the eps, but he could be in 2/3rds. He clearly WANTS to work, where as the Js clearly want more time off. Plus he is definitely next in popularity...

Edited October 24, 2018 by S Cook Productions
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