Spoilers With Speculation

[gonzosgirrl]

Please let that not be from an encounter with Michael. I can hear the fallout for Dean already.

[Aeryn13]

It would make the most sense, though. 

And while I can of course see the pitchforks already, I personally wouldn`t care too much. It`s not like Dean hasn`t been beaten up by possessed family and friends before. At the moment he is Michael so approaching him is just going to result in things like that. 

[Bobcatkitten]

Looks like they aren't wasting any time in episode 1 - going straight to battle.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Please let that not be from an encounter with Michael. I can hear the fallout for Dean already.

I don't know.  Cas has beaten up Dean before and a MoC Dean beat on Cas.  If this is from Michael!Dean, I don't see it coming back on Dean given he's possessed other than "Dean was stupid for trusting MichaeL", which he's already gonna get as it is. 

What kind of bugs me about it, is that Michael!Dean was not in the bunker and Cas was not hurt physically at the end of s13. This implies a time jump.  Will we have missed out on the chase or will it be a montage of flashbacks to Dean being gone? Or  something silly like that?

[ILoveReading]

I wish the writers would learn there are other ways to create angst rather than just beating someone up. 

Here is a picture of the tapeball from yesterday

IIRC, Jensen is blue.  So the lack of blue on the ball implies Jensen didn't film yesterday.  So I'm guessing Lucifer rises from the dead and beats up Cas.  He's the only other one that would make sense, unless Jack has suddenly gone darkside for.....reasons.

From Jim Beaver:

Yet another hint Lucifer will probably be back

Edited July 11, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

He`ll probably be back in the teaser for episode 1. Which is pathetic even for this show`s standards. 

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

IIRC, Jensen is blue.  So the lack of blue on the ball implies Jensen didn't film yesterday.  So I'm guessing Lucifer rises from the dead and beats up Cas.  He's the only other one that would make sense, unless Jack has suddenly gone darkside for.....reasons.

I was thinking the same thing re Lucifer. Even if Jack goes darkside, he doesn't have his grace anymore so I don't see how he could beat up Cas.  I was also thinking maybe Cas goes back to Heaven and Naomi or the other angels do this?

RE Jim Beaver:

Sounds to me like Jim is a series regular given him saying Day 1 of S14.  I mean if he was going to be back for just one or two episodes why is is doing this countdown sort of posting.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I don't know.  Cas has beaten up Dean before and a MoC Dean beat on Cas.  If this is from Michael!Dean, I don't see it coming back on Dean given he's possessed other than "Dean was stupid for trusting MichaeL", which he's already gonna get as it is. 

What kind of bugs me about it, is that Michael!Dean was not in the bunker and Cas was not hurt physically at the end of s13. This implies a time jump.  Will we have missed out on the chase or will it be a montage of flashbacks to Dean being gone? Or  something silly like that?

I don't mean fallout from the Cas fans who already think Dean doesn't deserve him (and conveniently forget how many time Cas has beat the shit out of Dean).

Honestly, if Lucifer is back in episode freaking one, then I don't think I can go on with the show. I'll just have to find Michael!Dean clips on Youtube.

OTOH, Tapeball is pretty big already. Maybe Jensen's blue tape is under the outer layer(s)? Weird that neither J posted anything yesterday if they were there. Although, neither of them really tweet much about the show itself any more.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't mean fallout from the Cas fans who already think Dean doesn't deserve him (and conveniently forget how many time Cas has beat the shit out of Dean).

What fallout do you mean?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

What fallout do you mean?

I missed a phrase in that quote somehow. It was supposed to say:

Quote

I don't mean fallout on screen/in show, I mean from the Cas fans who already think Dean doesn't deserve him (and conveniently forget how many time Cas has beat the shit out of Dean).

Fan outrage. Online stuff. Social media.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I missed a phrase in that quote somehow. It was supposed to say:

Fan outrage. Online stuff. Social media.

Gotcha.  I still don't think it will be that bad.  It's Michael!Dean not Dean. I remember thinking it would be bad when MoC!Dean beat Cas but they seemed to know it wasn't really Dean.  I think those that hate Dean already will find any reason to say he's not good enough for Cas no matter what. He could sneeze in Cas' direction and it would be "what an asshole!".

[ILoveReading]

Here are the scenes they filmed yesterday so it seems that Cas is either beat up at the start in scene 5, or in the middle of the ep.

[Jonesy]

9 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

No speculation just spoilerish...

 

Hell, it could be anyone beating on Cas--this is SPN after all.  Could be Michael/Dean...maybe not.  About Bobby don't think he is a regular this year just because he's in first episode...he's not at Comic Con unlike the regulars and he's been in a lot of first episodes without being a regular thru the years.  With the Lucifer fears--I don't get it.   I see nothing substantial that says he will be back--and this is from something who wouldn't mind him being back.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Jakes said:

he's not at Comic Con unlike the regulars a

He's not scheduled. That doesn't preclude him making a surprise appearance.  Kind of like when Felicia Day ended up on the panel a few years ago.

As to Lucifer, they already have a path for his resurrection via the Empty.  Cas got out.  Why would Lucifer not be able to get out, too?

[ILoveReading]

The QOTD seems to suggest this is about saving Dean, but I hope it doesn't mean that they already caught up with him.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

As to Lucifer, they already have a path for his resurrection via the Empty.  Cas got out.  Why would Lucifer not be able to get out, too?

Seriously. They already screwed Dean (and Jensen) over with that 'fight', getting his ass kicked even as a archangel, and needing the assist from Sam to save him. If they take away the kill, too, and make Dean's sacrifice meaningless (and put that 'fight' on Jensen's reel forfuckingever), then I am really and truly done with the show.

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The QOTD seems to suggest this is about saving Dean, but I hope it doesn't mean that they already caught up with him.

There is no logical reason why Michael, apparently the only angel left that can teleport, would put himself within a country mile of the handful of people on Earth who even know he exists. Why wouldn't he take his 'mission' to the other side of the world and start there? Alas, this is SPN and he'll probably stop by the bunker for a change of clothes.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The QOTD seems to suggest this is about saving Dean, but I hope it doesn't mean that they already caught up with him.

Or setting RW Michael free?

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

Or setting RW Michael free?

 

Sam might just let OG!Michael possess him to fight AU!Michael and win.  I actually do think that will be the end game on this arc. 

[Casseiopeia]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Sam might just let OG!Michael possess him to fight AU!Michael and win.  I actually do think that will be the end game on this arc. 

I think so too.  But I sincerely hope not.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I think so too.  But I sincerely hope not.

Same.

[ILoveReading]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Sam might just let OG!Michael possess him to fight AU!Michael and win.  I actually do think that will be the end game on this arc. 

I really hope not.  Once Dean is free I'd rather no one be possessed again

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I really hope not.  Once Dean is free I'd rather no one be possessed again

Sorry, I meant that Sam would be possessed to fight AU! Michael in order to save Dean. Not that it would go to the end of the season.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry, I meant that Sam would be possessed to fight AU! Michael in order to save Dean. Not that it would go to the end of the season.

The ultimate (shitfest) in giving people what they want in a way they don't expect. This whole potential arc seems more like a punishment for daring to want something great/powerful for Dean than a gift, at least judging by its beginning. Be careful what you wish for, indeed.

[devlin]

If dabb and co go the route of sam saying yes to OG!michael in order to defeat dean!michael, they should seriously hang their heads in shame and I hope they never work in this industry again

[Pondlass1]

I wish I had Jakes' optimism. 

AU Michael could be/do anything.  Michael could really fuck with Dean and we are privy to Dean's struggle and eventual triumph.   With a little imagination it could be an awesome storyline  both arc and MOTW for both brothers (and Cas).  They've got a wealth of meat to work with and a really good actor in the dual role.

But one thing this show does really well lately is strangle any ounce of hope I have. 

[trxr4kids]

25 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

3.  About Sam being OG Michael--that's the one that seems to be an absolute WAG and shouldn't be any cause to panic.  Does anyone remember that they already have a perfectly good (albeit supposedly insane) vessel for Michael already in the cage with him?  Remember Adam?  (Even the Show acknowledged him in season 10, to remind the audience that he hadn't actually been retconned out.)  Plus Sam was always destined for Lucifer; I can't imagine Michael even wanting to wear him (especially if he regains his sanity enough to be able to fight).  

I don't see Sam potentially becoming the vessel for OG Michael as a WAG given this shows history and comments made by TPTB about seeing a character that hadn't been seen in years. It was considered a WAG that Sam would have the MoC at some point and yet he did. I think of it more as them obfuscating plans or even pulling shit outta their asses at a later date to make what they said previously seem legitimate.

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

It was considered a WAG that Sam would have the MoC at some point and yet he did

/Raises hand and points at self. 

I've made many a WAG that turned out true....so are they all that WAGgy? 

Sam getting the Mark was one of my broken record WAGs. It didn't go as far as using it but he still got it.  I'm counting it as win. LOL

Also, the WAG I made about Crowley squirreling away the Nicksuit came to pass. I'm particularly proud of that one! LOL..

I speculated/hoped that the broken Michael Lance was portending a Michael!Dean set up but I'm not sure if that did or not.  I also speculated that the blue/white crosses over AU!Michael's shoulders in 13.2 and over Dean's shoulder in Advanced Thanatology was symbolism/subtext for the connection to AU!Michael and Dean. I kind of dismissed it because it seemed to unlikely they would really give us Michael!Dean but I'm going to count that WAG as panning out as well.

IMO Lucifer NOT coming back would be way more surprising than him coming back given the givens of the avenues left open for him to return. 

[ILoveReading]

Whats a WAG?

[trxr4kids]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam getting the Mark was one of my broken record WAGs. It didn't go as far as using it but he still got it.  I'm counting it as win. LOL

IMO it doesn't matter if he only had it for a hot minute, he did have it. So win!

 

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO Lucifer NOT coming back would be way more surprising than him coming back given the givens of the avenues left open for him to return. 

I agree, especially with Jim Beaver's tweets about characters staying dead and the Lucifer/MP love fest the show has had for many seasons.

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Whats a WAG?

Wild Ass Guess

[trxr4kids]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Also, the WAG I made about Crowley squirreling away the Nicksuit came to pass. I'm particularly proud of that one!

Shit I forgot that one, it was shear genius on your part to predict the absolute ridiculousness of the show. 

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, trxr4kids said:

Wild Ass Guess

thanks. 

So for my WAGs

Sam would be the brother given the Trials.

Sam getting the mark,

That removing the mark Cain would release all that anger, and evil the mark absorbed though the years as a destructive force.  I'm giving myself half a point on that one.  Because it started out that way before they pulled its God's sister out of their collective posteriors.

Predicting the plot of Brother's Keeper, including htat Death would ask Dean to kill Sam and Dean would end up killing death instead.

I also predicted that there would be no follow up to Dean killing death.

My WAGs turn out pretty accurate most of the time.  lol

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

My WAGs turn out pretty accurate most of the time.  lol

We have enough knowledge of the show, and it's past tendencies and coupled with the spoilers we do get that I think they should count as SWAGS- Scientific Wild Ass Guesses). That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

We have enough knowledge of the show, and it's past tendencies and coupled with the spoilers we do get that I think they should count as SWAGS- Scientific Wild Ass Guesses). That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Will respond in bitter spoilers just to be on the safe side.

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

collective posteriors.

So much classier than me, can I borrow that, lol!

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

So much classier than me, can I borrow that, lol!

Go for it.  :-) 

[ILoveReading]

Evidence that Lucifer might be back

Mark hinting at several cons that Lucifer was still alive becasue of Nephlim Grace.

Mark P, retweeting this tweet

Then I saw this on Tumblr

Quote

Yo, what’s with this “the devil will rise again” spoiler for season 14. OH HELLLLLLL NO! I was so happy when Michael!Dean killed Lucifer. I am sick of Lucifer, he’s not even funny anymore. He’s just plain annoying. Please don’t bring him back….bring anyone back but Lucifer. 

http://fawnjensen.tumblr.com/post/175823178533/yo-whats-with-this-the-devil-will-rise-again

If you click the link, the page has a spoiler for the walking dead that plays automatically. 

While none of this is direct evidence when I put it together with Dabb's never ending love affair with Mark P and Lucifer, and the writers lack of creativity, I think the odds are more in favor of Lucifer coming back than staying dead.  I'm even have a bet with my friend its before the first commercial break.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I also predicted that there would be no follow up to Dean killing death.

I think I'm going to claim at least semi-ownership of that one... unless you predicted it at the same time you predicted what would happen in the finale - which I don't remember if I read spoilers for that so maybe wouldn't have seen your prediction - in which case then you would have precedence. I didn't predict that there would be no repercussions for killing Death until the few moments after the "Brother's Keeper" episode. I think I semi-predicted that there would be good repercussions though - even though I think I was being sarcastic - so sort of a point to me there.

The only other Wild Ass Guess I can potentially claim - and I think it was more an educated guess - was that Sam's visions after he prayed in "Form and Void" came from Lucifer rather than God.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think I'm going to claim at least semi-ownership of that one... unless you predicted it at the same time you predicted what would happen in the finale - which I don't remember if I read spoilers for that so maybe wouldn't have seen your prediction - in which case then you would have precedence. I didn't predict that there would be no repercussions for killing Death until the few moments after the "Brother's Keeper" episode. I think I semi-predicted that there would be good repercussions though - even though I think I was being sarcastic - so sort of a point to me there.

The only other Wild Ass Guess I can potentially claim - and I think it was more an educated guess - was that Sam's visions after he prayed in "Form and Void" came from Lucifer rather than God.

It wasn't on this board.

[BoxManLocke]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Evidence that Lucifer might be back

Mark hinting at several cons that Lucifer was still alive becasue of Nephlim Grace.

 

I was there at one of those cons. He was clearly just trying to get the fans excited. Unfortunately, not everybody has Mark Sheppard's honesty, so they'll play by the usual SPN rules of acting like anybody can come back ; which is just fucking stupid after 13 seasons IMO

[Casseiopeia]

So does this mean that Sam has a beard?

 

[BoxManLocke]

4 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

So does this mean that Sam has a beard?

 

 

I wish. It would make sense if he's in desperate mode.

Don't have an Instagram account to ask the guy when the photo was taken. He replies to comments so maybe someone else could

[Casseiopeia]

8 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

 

I wish. It would make sense if he's in desperate mode.

Don't have an Instagram account to ask the guy when the photo was taken. He replies to comments so maybe someone else could

It was today

[BoxManLocke]

11 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

It was today

I don't mean to be annoying but it was uploaded a few hours ago, yes ; not seeing any proof it's actually been taken the same day.

 

Need to be sure because Sam having a beard would be a major boost for my excitement (yes, this is how far we've fallen.)

 

Edit : Never mind, he's been photographed today by other people as well. Beard and outfit is the same.

 

 

I'm getting all giddy now

Edited July 13, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[Casseiopeia]

9 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

I don't mean to be annoying but it was uploaded a few hours ago, yes ; not seeing any proof it's actually been taken the same day.

 

Need to be sure because Sam having a beard would be a major boost for my excitement (yes, this is how far we've fallen.)

There was a tweet from another fan from today with a picture in VC.  I'll see if I can find it again.

 

Both pictures are from today.  He is wearing the same clothes.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[ILoveReading]

First couple of spoilers. 

Not surprised that Michael is going be funny.  Just a darker version.   I hope its more than human Dean.  I want to see angel powers.

But hallelujah it does sound like Lucifer is dead.  Please let it stay that way. 

But it does sound like the story is once again very short lived.

Edited July 14, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Casseiopeia]

That last answer is weird.  I knew that our Michael wasn't a good guy but I didn't know that our Michael wanted to eliminate all but 5000 people.  When did they say that...other than right now?

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

That last answer is weird.  I knew that our Michael wasn't a good guy but I didn't know that our Michael wanted to eliminate all but 5000 people.  When did they say that...other than right now?

that is a hilarious asspull retcon. He never had any such agenda. Mankind was  colllateral damage to his fight with Lucifer. Not the end game destruction.

Why would he leave 5000?

[trxr4kids]

Wow, I don't recall Michael ever stating that in his maybe 10 minutes of screentime, nor do I recall Zachariah, his alleged right hand man saying anything of the kind. I smell a retcon.

[companionenvy]

It is a bizarre retcon too, as it would have made a major difference back in S5, especially when Dean was thinking of saying yes to Michael, which was predicated on the idea that he might be able to save a significant percentage of the population, not just 5000 people.

On the other hand, it could work if they're not trying to pretend that this is information we've had all along, but introducing it as something about Michael's original plan that we never knew. It is understandable that neither Michael nor Zachariah, who wanted Dean to say yes, would have been inclined to tell him exactly how few survivors there were going to be. 

I mean, it is still a retcon, since I'm quite sure Kripke had no notion of a chosen 5000. But it doesn't have to violate canon or logic, as there are good in-universe reasons that we would never have had this information before, but would get it now that Michael's plans have suddenly become highly relevant. 

Other thoughts on the interview:

Unless they're totally lying (very possible!) this does make it more likely that Lucifer is actually dead, although then the line about that not meaning Mark Pellegrino is done is a little bit odd. I guess Lucifer could appear in flashbacks, but they really seemed to be talking about Mark P coming back as Nick, and I can't see any reason for that at this point in the show. Especially as Nick is definitely dead at this point. 

I don't like the signal that the Dean!Michael plot will be cut very short, and don't buy their explanation. It would be one thing if the explanation were that they wanted to get Dean back in the game, although there are more creative ways to do that than deciding he can only be Michael for 2-3 episodes (which is what it sounds like from the article). But  the idea that the brothers can't be separated for longer than a couple of episodes is bogus. Do I think they should be separated for half a season? No. But after 13 seasons, I think the writers should be able to trust the audience to cope with them being separated for 5-6 episodes without tuning out. Especially as those episodes would naturally still  involve the brother's relationship, and there's no reason why you couldn't have at least a scene or two in that time in which Dean temporarily breaks free and contacts Sam, or Michael lets Dean out for a moment as part of a taunt against Sam, or so on. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Demin Dean all over again. Jensen should go in strike. Pretty sure I'm gonna.