Spoilers With Speculation

[SueB]

25 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Although weirdly, one of the most obvious answers to the problem of there only being 8 angels left in our universe is bringing over a bunch of AU angels. If there are a small enough number of humans remaining, in theory, maybe they could bring over all of the humans and a bunch of angels to our world and leave AU-world to die.

The problem, of course, being that the AU angels are apparently evil. But it still seems more than coincidental that the show has introduced an AU with tons of angels in the same season that they have written a plot about our heaven being depleted. 

I’ve been think ‘Exodus’ was about the AU Angels.  But for them to be useful, they’ll need a strong leader who doesn’t want to destroy our universe.  Enter whomever Dean becomes.  

[Myrelle]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 11:49 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Okay, the brothers coming up with an "impulsive decision" together certainly nixes my previous theory on how events could be unfolding. But if it`s not on Dean alone, it does give me more hope that the reason for it all will be for heroic, world-saving purposes which is a biggie for me. 

Now if the joint decision-making is true then whoever Dean becomes might be a more unintended outcome. Not really the cause-effect from the decision itself. 

I seriously wouldn`t put it past them to re-do with Dean what they just did with Sam. Namely, the brothers are trying something to save people, Dean somehow ends up dead (the stepping up part could relate to whatever he is trying to do to save people, not a decision to say yes to possession). Dean being dead fits with Billie`s remark. 

And it just so happens that our!Michael wanders through the rift and for cockamamie reasons he can not only resurrect Dean but also possess him.

(Sam-fans. avert your eyes for the next spec: what if they somehow re-do the Gadreel thing, just with Sam and Dean`s role reverted?) I doubt it but wouldn`t put it past them. I`m more with the cockamamie reasons.

I do hope everything is a lot more epic than what I just described. 

I'd considered the bolded part, too, but I now feel like they're going to try and parallel the S5 finale more and once again, the big difference of course being the added role reversal of the two main characters. There will, of course, be some differences-I don't think that Sam will get the shit beat out of him by a PossessedDean for one.

[catrox14]

57 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

he problem, of course, being that the AU angels are apparently evil. But it still seems more than coincidental that the show has introduced an AU with tons of angels in the same season that they have written a plot about our heaven being depleted. 

Sure it's not coincidental. but why would Sam and Dean be on board that plan? Why would they trust the murderous angels from AW to be trustworthy in this Heaven. And if Dean goes along with that plan, then he is going to look like a chump, who was told by Billie that they didn't want some big dumb Winchesters breaking the universe.  Honestly, I hope it turns out that Dean is fully against any involvement in that war, and takes a lot of shit for it, but turns out to be right to not do it. Because, Dean is right almost all the time.

Which actually raises a point for me. IMO, they must have their own Heaven if they have their own versions of angels. Presuming they have their own Heaven, then it stands to reason they have their own Death. (maybe their own God as well who knows)

IMO, just because Billie knows about the multiple dimensions/universes doesn't mean there is only one Death. 

Perhaps there are multiple Deaths in the universes who want no interference from humans from Earth 1 or elsewhere and want their own universes to maintain their own natural orders and they communicate with one another hence Billie talking about the house of cards.  Maybe she is too new to being Earth1!Death so she wasn't sure how Dean et al could cross universes. 

And speaking of potential multiple Deaths, maybe the character Jensen plays is AU Death who looks like Dean Winchester.  And dresses nattily. Maybe Dean will end up having a chat with AU Death who looks like Dean.  I would be so on board with that. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by catrox14

[OrigamiNightmare]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

The Mother has become another in a long line of TV Mary Sues.  She's the bestest at everything except being a damn Mother!

I wish Amara had gifted Dean socks and underwear.

I think it would've been really interesting if they'd brought back John instead. Perhaps they could've worked on redeeming him a bit ... And John I could buy as being a more accomplished hunter with all his military training.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

I’ve been think ‘Exodus’ was about the AU Angels.  But for them to be useful, they’ll need a strong leader who doesn’t want to destroy our universe.  Enter whomever Dean becomes.  

I assumed that, too.  But last ep seemed to be pushing Gabriel for that angel leadership role--fixing "our" heaven by bringing the AU angels to our side to keep the lights on.  I wouldn't be surprised if they suddenly announce that only the "bad" angels following Michael down on AU world were the ones trying to kill all humans, and there are still "good" angels who've locked themselves up in heaven to stay out of the fight, and those are the ones Gabriel (or "our" Michael) will bring to our side.   Either way, they'll either have to convince the bad angels to change sides, or the good ones to stop hiding.

My best guess is that Gabriel leads the AU angels and winds up running our heaven.  AU Michael is defeated, Mary and Jack stay in the AU to help rebuild their world (and maybe Luci decides to stay with Jack).  But they still have to get to Dean's new role and setting up the next season's Big Bad (or at least, the arc). 

I can see maybe Dean "stepping up" by agreeing to be "our" Michael to defeat AU Michael, and then *sigh* Michael refuses to leave Dean's meatsuit.  Thus Dean/Michael becomes the Big Bad for next season?  

Meanwhile, they can have separate storylines of Gabriel dealing with heaven (with Cas's help) and Mary and Jack rebuilding the AU (and possibly Lucifer deciding which side to be one there) while Jared and Jensen only have to be in 1/3 of the storylines.  

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

I think it would've been really interesting if they'd brought back John instead. Perhaps they could've worked on redeeming him a bit ... And John I could buy as being a more accomplished hunter with all his military training.

I've said since Mary was resurrected that I think TPTB really  wanted John but couldn't get JDM so rather than abandon bringing back a parent they just flipped it to Mary.  John would fit with the entire thing IMO much more than Mary ever did.

[gonzosgirrl]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've said since Mary was resurrected that I think TPTB really  wanted John but couldn't get JDM so rather than abandon bringing back a parent they just flipped it to Mary.  John would fit with the entire thing IMO much more than Mary ever did.

I wish Amara had given Dean a lifetime subscription to Busty Asian Beauties, or an unlimited gift card for the Gas 'n Sip. Either would've been more useful to him than either of his awful parents.

Seriously, before the show is over I want it revealed that Dean was adopted. He's nothing like John or Mary except in the ways beaten into him as a child. Bah.

Maybe that's why they went with Adam in the end - Dean wasn't really a Winchester/Campbell after all. There. Ret-con accomplished.

[Bobcatkitten]

http://ew.com/tv/2018/05/10/supernatural-season-13-lucifer-jack-meet/

 

Not much here except in the last line it says one more exciting cameo tonight. Guesses? 

[Aeryn13]

I`m guessing he is not talking about Bobby (and possibly Charlie or Ketch) being back. So, Matt Cohen as "young John"?

The Producer`s preview had Dean screaming at Jack to kill Lucifer and Jack freaking out about it. I rolled my eyes because I can already hear the "mean Dean" screams and it will set-up Jack to initially "defend" Lucifer IMO. But at the top of the hour he will make a choice against being Lucifer`s proud little baby boy. 

Maybe Lucy rats them all out or something.  

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m guessing he is not talking about Bobby (and possibly Charlie or Ketch) being back. So, Matt Cohen as "young John"?

The Producer`s preview had Dean screaming at Jack to kill Lucifer and Jack freaking out about it. I rolled my eyes because I can already hear the "mean Dean" screams and it will set-up Jack to initially "defend" Lucifer IMO. But at the top of the hour he will make a choice against being Lucifer`s proud little baby boy. 

Maybe Lucy rats them all out or something.  

I'm sure you've called this right, despite the fact that there should be no redemption for Lucifer, ever. I don't care if he starts pooping out fluffy bunnies while cleaning the oceans. He's freaking Lucifer and he should die.

I wonder if the cameo is whoever they were filming behind closed doors (curtains) a while back. I'm going with likely: Young John, possibly: Ellen, long-shot: Adam.

I say possibly Ellen because Sam Ferris showed up at a con recently after a pretty long absence.

Edited May 10, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

At this point, I can't think of anyone that makes sense. 

Young John would have to be a time travel thing or a resurrection because Mary didn't make the deal and John died. Unless it's maybe a flashback with Amy Gumenick and Matt Cohen a la In The Beginning and shows Young Mary not saving Young John and we get an Azazel in Grampy Campbell with Mitch Pellegi.

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm sure you've called this right, despite the fact that there should be no redemption for Lucifer, ever. I don't care if he starts pooping out fluffy bunnies while cleaning the oceans. He's freaking Lucifer and he should die.

Seriously. There is no redemption for the Devil.  It makes everything about s1 through s5 pointless if they redeem the frakking Devil. STOOPID

[gonzosgirrl]

I really wonder about Dabb sometimes.

Quote

But as far as Lucifer is concerned, getting to Jack has been a central goal of his since the moment he found out that Kelly was pregnant last year. “From Lucifer’s point of view, you’re dealing with a character who has tried a few apocalypses, tried to run heaven, tried to be president very briefly, and it’s all fallen apart for him,” Dabb continues. “You cannot say Lucifer’s had a lot of success in his life. Just recently, after what he did in heaven, he’s sitting around and he’s like, ‘What else is there for me?’ And maybe it’s parenthood. Lucifer’s trying to define himself through having a child, basically. For him, it’s much more important to make contact with Jack, it’s much more important to have that bond, to see something of himself in this kid.”

All that being said, it’s a safe bet that Lucifer didn’t expect to be reunited with his son in an alternate world where his brother Michael has killed most of humanity. “As is the traditional Supernatural way, it does not all go quite as planned,” Dabb says of the meeting. “But I think they’ve both got very strong opinions on each other, so we’re really hoping that bringing them face-to-face, something we’ve been setting up all season, is going to play really well. Seeing Alex [Calvert] and Mark [Pellegrino] acting off each other is a really cool, interesting, and very nuanced thing because they’re both playing about three different levels of things.”

First of all - are we supposed to feel badly for Lucifer's poor, sad, failure of a life? HE'S LUCIFER.  Secondly, 'he didn't expect to be reunited with his son in an alternate world'?  Seriously, wtf? He totally expected it. He knew he was there. He worked toward a way to get there. DO YOU EVEN WATCH THIS FUCKING SHOW????

And a world where his brother has killed most of humanity. You mean like Lucifer wanted to do in this world, except it was ALL of humanity? Yeah, Dabb is totally trying to rehab Lucifer and make Michael the villain in both worlds. I swear to Chuck, Pellegrino must have something on Dabb. Or Dabb is in love. I mean seriously, wtf?

Edited May 10, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

My anger isn't with Mary, it's with the writers.  They're the ones deliberately making her out to be as clueless about her sons as possible.  What she said to them made perfect sense.  She's been there for months, and has come to know them and has a vested interest in their survival.  I have no issue with that, and I personally don't think Sam and Dean would either.  Yes, they'd be sad, and possibly even angry, initially, but then I think they'd absolutely come around and fully understand her reasons for staying.  This could have been written so much better, and no one would need to be the bad guy.  It upsets me that they've turned her character into someone that people now hate.  There was absolutely no reason for that. 

I'm going to hope that the scene we were shown is not the end of it, and that there is another scene where they do accept and understand what she's doing.  If this really is the way the show runners are choosing to end her character arc, then do it with some class.  Taking this basically beloved character and turning her into someone barely recognizable just to screw with Sam and Dean was completely unnecessary.

Welcome to the board, S Cook Productions!!

[BoxManLocke]

The Lucifer/Mary/Michael stuff making zero sense is because it was one big smokescreen so we wouldn't see what the finale would be about.

 

And it will be about Death/Fate having to course-correct after Sam & Dean bring back hundreds of people from another universe who shouldn't be here, messing up the balance of the universe in the process (Jessica's speech about the butterfly effect in Funeralia suddenly makes a lot more sense).

 

I'm fine with Sam and Dean getting their just desserts after messing with Death so many times (that should have been season 11's plot IMO), but Dabb and his cronies were so fixated on their endgame they completely forgot it's the journey that matters. That's why the season has no focus at all and we're just now starting to see what they're trying to do. They were basically stalling for most of the season.

 

*I'm just trying to come up with an ending that doesn't completely suck. Bear with me here*

Edited May 10, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

She's been there for months, and has come to know them and has a vested interest in their survival. 

This goes back to my other question. She has been there for months but she was captive for a lot of that time. So I don't think it's clear at all how long she's been in the rebel camp. There is no good timeline these days IMO

28 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

This could have been written so much better, and no one would need to be the bad guy.  It upsets me that they've turned her character into someone that people now hate.  There was absolutely no reason for that. 

She's not universally hated though. I see a lot of talk on SM about how Mary is  badass and complex and the boys are being asses and the only reason some are mad at Mary is because she makes Dean and Sam sad (mostly Dean) and they are selfish. 

[Myrelle]

39 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm going to hope that the scene we were shown is not the end of it, and that there is another scene where they do accept and understand what she's doing.

I don't think you need worry about this. I'm sure you will get what you want along with yet another apology(and likely from Dean, yet again) for how childish they've been in wanting their mumsy back in their lives and in not recognizing her individualism and all the awesomeness about her that goes along with that. *eye rolls to the back of my head yet again over this writing drek that we'll likely have to put up with again this season because we obviously didn't get enough of it last season* Blech. Blech. And BLECH!

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This goes back to my other question. She has been there for months but she was captive for a lot of that time. So I don't think it's clear at all how long she's been in the rebel camp. There is no good timeline these days IMO

I don't disagree.  There has been no clear discussion of just how long she's been there.  I'm just basing my theory on the fact that both she and Jack are now known by name as leaders of the cause, right along with Bobby.  I wouldn't think that would happen overnight.  

I was initially intrigued by the idea of Mary coming back because it would give us an opportunity to sort of revisit some of the highlights of the show as she was slowly brought up to speed by Sam and Dean.  We should have been able to experience those things with her, and through her eyes as their mother, but they never gave us that opportunity.  All of the important revelations took place off screen.  It would have been perfectly normal for her to struggle with being back, and trying to form a relationship with her two grown sons, who were basically strangers to her.  It could have been really interesting, but they totally blew it, IMO.  Instead we got a retconned story of a woman who never gave up hunting, rejected her sons at every turn, and was the worlds best hunter.  And now they'll end her story by having her reject her sons one more time, just because.  I really dislike these writers sometimes.

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I don't think you need worry about this. I'm sure you will get what you want along with yet another apology(and likely from Dean, yet again) for how childish they've been in wanting their mumsy back in their lives and in not recognizing her individualism and all the awesomeness about her that goes along with that. *eye rolls to the back of my head yet again over this writing drek that we'll likely have to put up with again this season because we obviously didn't get enough of it last season* Blech. Blech. And BLECH!

I don't want this either, believe me.  I don't really want anyone to have to apologize to anyone.  They've totally fucked this up, and I'm going to be pissed if this is how her story ends.

[MysteryGuest]

So, based on tonight's preview for next week, it's looking more and more like Dean/Michael, but now I don't know if it will be our Michael, or AU Michael.  It seems bizarre that they'd wait this long to even consider our Michael as a source of help, but I also can't see a reason why Dean would agree to be AU Michael's vessel.  The previews they show go by so quickly that it's difficult for me to really tell just what's going on.

[Casseiopeia]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

So, based on tonight's preview for next week, it's looking more and more like Dean/Michael, but now I don't know if it will be our Michael, or AU Michael.  It seems bizarre that they'd wait this long to even consider our Michael as a source of help, but I also can't see a reason why Dean would agree to be AU Michael's vessel.  The previews they show go by so quickly that it's difficult for me to really tell just what's going on.

Was Dean flying at the end?

[SueB]

7 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Was Dean flying at the end?

Yes.  I watched it in slow mo about five times.

Key points:
- We see AUMichael bleeding out from the eyes.
- Jack smashes someone at a Gas-n-Sip
- Final scene: Dean(or whomever is in Dean) screaming and flying at Lucifer with a mighty crash, Jack and Sam witnessing the fight
 

[MysteryGuest]

I wonder if the heavy dose of Lucifer we've been getting in recent weeks is actually his swan song?  I just don't see where else they go with his storyline.  They've really ruined him as a big bad because they've made him so annoying.  And giving him redemption doesn't really seem right after all he's done.  I would prefer he betrays them, again, and somehow Dean steps up and takes him out, once and for all.  It is sort of fitting that he would ultimately kill the evil bastard who tortured his brother so much.

I just hope we don't get a repeat of last season where everyone dies in the end.  I'll be perfectly fine with having people return to the AU to rebuild their lives.  And if Mary chooses to go help them, then so be it.  I'd prefer that to watching her be killed, or rather having to watch Sam and Dean watch her be killed.  Of course, it could be her death that makes Dean "step up" to take out Lucifer or Michael.  Who knows.  One more week of speculation, and all will be revealed!

[SueB]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

I wonder if the heavy dose of Lucifer we've been getting in recent weeks is actually his swan song?  I just don't see where else they go with his storyline.  They've really ruined him as a big bad because they've made him so annoying.  And giving him redemption doesn't really seem right after all he's done.  I would prefer he betrays them, again, and somehow Dean steps up and takes him out, once and for all.  It is sort of fitting that he would ultimately kill the evil bastard who tortured his brother so much.

I just hope we don't get a repeat of last season where everyone dies in the end.  I'll be perfectly fine with having people return to the AU to rebuild their lives.  And if Mary chooses to go help them, then so be it.  I'd prefer that to watching her be killed, or rather having to watch Sam and Dean watch her be killed.  Of course, it could be her death that makes Dean "step up" to take out Lucifer or Michael.  Who knows.  One more week of speculation, and all will be revealed!

Since we know "Dean" walks away (likely at the end), I'm thinking "Dean" kills Lucifer.   

[MysteryGuest]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

Since we know "Dean" walks away (likely at the end), I'm thinking "Dean" kills Lucifer.  

Right, but Dean as possessed by exactly whom?  My guess is our Michael.  And then Michael decides he's been locked up long enough and doesn't want to give up his shiny new vessel so quickly.  

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Was Dean flying at the end?

I thought it was Lucifer vs Michael in the bunker.  If it is Dean then maybe he's already gone to the Cage and is being possessed by Our Michael

[Myrelle]

I think that after the debacles that were the last few episodes, Dean in whatever form he chooses, should get to take both AUMichael AND Lucifer off the board. I'm not sure what was going on in that promo, but the need for the writers to remember that Dean is a main character on this show and that JA is one of the lead actors is dire, at this point, and I wouldn't still be here after these last few, except for his spoiler.

Geez, I'm now hoping more than ever before that it's going to be worth hangin' in there for it.

[Lemuria]

Did anyone else, when we get to AW!Michael in the 3x23 promo with his eyes bleeding and saying "It's the end," get a "Lazarus Rising" flashback?  When Sam sneaks back to the diner and finds the demon waitress with her eyes burned out and bleeding?  She says, "It's the end.  We're all dead."  She saw an angel.  What did AW!Michael see?

I understand that Sam wants some revenge on Lucifer (well, I understand that this season the writers suddenly set that up; in past seasons, not so much) but I think he made a bad mistake here.  He should have taken Lucifer down with an angel blade.  Instead, he left the weasel behind.  While he may have assumed AW!Michael would eliminate Lucifer, we all know what happens when you assume.  Certainly, Lucifer finding a way to ally with AW!M was well within the bounds of possibility and Sam should have been aware of that.

We've been talking about the possibility vs the not-possibility that Jack could/will go darkside all season--what if he somehow figures out what happened between Sam and Lucifer and that's what tips him over?  He could see it as a betrayal.

[gonzosgirrl]

Is the preview posted anywhere? We didn't get it on the Canadian broadcast.

[Lemuria]

Here 'tis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6H9m36P2A0

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Here 'tis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6H9m36P2A0

Merci!

Jeez Lucifer is kicking Sam in the face? I sincerely hope this is his last episode. 

Dean - As Shakespeare once said, "Eat me." 

Oh how I love him. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Lemuria]

De rien!

[catrox14]

So where is Sister Jo? Do you guys think she'll show up in the finale? Could Dean allow her to possess him?  I mean I hope it's Michael but what about her?

[BoxManLocke]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So where is Sister Jo? Do you guys think she'll show up in the finale? Could Dean allow her to possess him?  I mean I hope it's Michael but what about her?

Sister Jo was a cameo orchestrated by BuckLeming. It was never meant to become anything big.

 

Looks like Dean's already possessed when he's fighting Lucifer at the end ? And where the hell is everybody else ?

 

It's nice that Jack and Sam seem to have made up at the end. If they kill Lucifer and keep Jack I'll be a happy camper.

There's already a 40 seconds version of the trailer :

 

[Castiels Cat]

14 hours ago, SueB said:

I’ve been think ‘Exodus’ was about the AU Angels.  But for them to be useful, they’ll need a strong leader who doesn’t want to destroy our universe.  Enter whomever Dean becomes.  

My rhoughts too.  Some may respond to strong structured leadership without such obvious torture, Naomi and her drill notwithstanding.

And are we coy because no spoilers. Is it a spoiler if it has not been officially spoiled?

Edited May 11, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, BoxManLocke said:

Sister Jo was a cameo orchestrated by BuckLeming. It was never meant to become anything big.

 

Looks like Dean's already possessed when he's fighting Lucifer at the end ? And where the hell is everybody else ?

 

It's nice that Jack and Sam seem to have made up at the end. If they kill Lucifer and keep Jack I'll be a happy camper.

There's already a 40 seconds version of the trailer :

 

 

Dean!Michael  is fighting Lucifer? That is a proper Apocalypse.  Are they saving AU Michael and his angel battalion for next year and just having a little battle in the bunket.

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Did anyone else, when we get to AW!Michael in the 3x23 promo with his eyes bleeding and saying "It's the end," get a "Lazarus Rising" flashback?  When Sam sneaks back to the diner and finds the demon waitress with her eyes burned out and bleeding?  She says, "It's the end.  We're all dead."  She saw an angel.  What did AW!Michael see?

I understand that Sam wants some revenge on Lucifer (well, I understand that this season the writers suddenly set that up; in past seasons, not so much) but I think he made a bad mistake here.  He should have taken Lucifer down with an angel blade.  Instead, he left the weasel behind.  While he may have assumed AW!Michael would eliminate Lucifer, we all know what happens when you assume.  Certainly, Lucifer finding a way to ally with AW!M was well within the bounds of possibility and Sam should have been aware of that.

We've been talking about the possibility vs the not-possibility that Jack could/will go darkside all season--what if he somehow figures out what happened between Sam and Lucifer and that's what tips him over?  He could see it as a betrayal.

Agreed.  Obviously Jack is upset and unstable and can hurt people when hevis upset and unstable.  Sam should have stabbed him repeatedly. He could not have killed him but he could have weakened him. Cut out his tongue. Hell coat him wirh holy oil and light him up.

Just leaving him there to talk  his way our of it was lame.

I am having trouble opening the promo.  

Michaels eyes bleed?. Maybe Jack. Maybe Dean!Michael plus the repaired  lance.  Was Cas' eyes bleeding when he was stabbed with it.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I thought it was Lucifer vs Michael in the bunker.  If it is Dean then maybe he's already gone to the Cage and is being possessed by Our Michael

Pretty obviously Dean!Michael imo.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

Since we know "Dean" walks away (likely at the end), I'm thinking "Dean" kills Lucifer.   

I am surprised that they give that to Dean but not surprised they give that to iMichael who was roomies with Lucifer for longer than Sam and 8 always thought Sam needed to take a number. 

The Gog/Magog kill indicates Dean is the Mtessiah/Michael who traditionally kills Lucifer. I assumed they were substituting AU Michael because Lucifer has been a veritable bottom feeder.

AU Michael bleeding eyes.  Did the Michael lance cause bleeding eyes.  Does Michael manifest and do that.  Is it Jack.

I do tbink AU Michael is overly cocky because Lucifer is just nothing like his brother and Gabriel was limp grace. 

5 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Right, but Dean as possessed by exactly whom?  My guess is our Michael.  And then Michael decides he's been locked up long enough and doesn't want to give up his shiny new vessel so quickly.  

No guess at this point is it.  Two bad archangels come strolling in bent on harming your people and world domination. 

Who you gonna call.

Dean!Michael.

Yes.  I would hang onto Dean myself. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Was Dean flying at the end?

Gah. They have set up our Michael for two seasons in suntectvand through Dean's storyline.

Lucifer mentioned him this episode and said something about him alwaus being really good looking ... duh.  DEAN.

Name dropped in an exorcism.

Hitler episode about family line and special blood for possession.

Dean's special blood needed in Heist episode which was a deliberate callback to his Mucharl sword/ righteous man storyline.

Ramiel episode.

Lucifer name dropped him in multiple episodes.

Dean is chosen because he is a perfect vessel in the Thing.

Both Lucifer and AU Michael are bad.  Sure Lucifer looked kind of guilty about selling out the world but he is not there friend. They need an archangel to defeat AU Michael and Lucifer cannot defeat him at full strength.  He tried.  Jack is too unstable. 

They have established that he is a powder keg that will blow.

Heaven is about to self destruct. The entire point of introducing thst storyline is towards red flag and say ... hey heaven needs a fully powered archangel. Who could that be.

Who is going to give them grace to return those refugees home? Ummm...

Every time AU Michael appears or is mentioned the writers expect us to think of our Michael.

Seriously... who the he'll is Dean going to step up and become but Dean!Michael.

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This goes back to my other question. She has been there for months but she was captive for a lot of that time. So I don't think it's clear at all how long she's been in the rebel camp. There is no good timeline these days IMO

She's not universally hated though. I see a lot of talk on SM about how Mary is  badass and complex and the boys are being asses and the only reason some are mad at Mary is because she makes Dean and Sam sad (mostly Dean) and they are selfish. 

SM?

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

The Lucifer/Mary/Michael stuff making zero sense is because it was one big smokescreen so we wouldn't see what the finale would be about.

 

And it will be about Death/Fate having to course-correct after Sam & Dean bring back hundreds of people from another universe who shouldn't be here, messing up the balance of the universe in the process (Jessica's speech about the butterfly effect in Funeralia suddenly makes a lot more sense).

 

I'm fine with Sam and Dean getting their just desserts after messing with Death so many times (that should have been season 11's plot IMO), but Dabb and his cronies were so fixated on their endgame they completely forgot it's the journey that matters. That's why the season has no focus at all and we're just now starting to see what they're trying to do. They were basically stalling for most of the season.

 

*I'm just trying to come up with an ending that doesn't completely suck. Bear with me here*

The season has been extremely focused if one was paying attention to the character arcs...

But yes... bringing a bunch of people here permanently would alter things.  That was not the plan and they brought twenty tops not hundreds.

I think Billie is far more worried about what AU Michael plans to do which is why she was so interested in Dean staying alive and why she told him he has work to do.

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/9/2018 at 11:49 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Okay, the brothers coming up with an "impulsive decision" together certainly nixes my previous theory on how events could be unfolding. But if it`s not on Dean alone, it does give me more hope that the reason for it all will be for heroic, world-saving purposes which is a biggie for me. 

Now if the joint decision-making is true then whoever Dean becomes might be a more unintended outcome. Not really the cause-effect from the decision itself. 

I seriously wouldn`t put it past them to re-do with Dean what they just did with Sam. Namely, the brothers are trying something to save people, Dean somehow ends up dead (the stepping up part could relate to whatever he is trying to do to save people, not a decision to say yes to possession). Dean being dead fits with Billie`s remark. 

And it just so happens that our!Michael wanders through the rift and for cockamamie reasons he can not only resurrect Dean but also possess him.

(Sam-fans. avert your eyes for the next spec: what if they somehow re-do the Gadreel thing, just with Sam and Dean`s role reverted?) I doubt it but wouldn`t put it past them. I`m more with the cockamamie reasons.

I do hope everything is a lot more epic than what I just described. 

Ehh... promo spoiler may leave out Dean's self sacrifice which they have set up.  Brothers may have another plan which fails and Dean goes to plan B.

Of course the ridiculous Sam's dead... no wait... He is alive... coukd foreshadow the same wirh Dean.

It is just they have telegraphed that Dean is mentally ready to pull one of his patented moves to sacrifice himself for a win and the first thing he is going to think of is ... we need an archangel and Michael is there I aam his vessel and Rowena can get me access. I can sacrifice myselfand save everyone I love and take down two motherfckers.

16 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Although weirdly, one of the most obvious answers to the problem of there only being 8 angels left in our universe is bringing over a bunch of AU angels. If there are a small enough number of humans remaining, in theory, maybe they could bring over all of the humans and a bunch of angels to our world and leave AU-world to die.

The problem, of course, being that the AU angels are apparently evil. But it still seems more than coincidental that the show has introduced an AU with tons of angels in the same season that they have written a plot about our heaven being depleted. 

Yeah this has been discussed and is the obvious answer and we do not know if they are all evil or are following orders like military personnel do. 

[companionenvy]

55 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

The season has been extremely focused if one was paying attention to the character arcs...

People can pay attention and come to different conclusions than you do, or have different perspectives about how effectively it has been seeded.

Personally, I don't think things like having a MOW episode that references family bloodlines a season and a half ago was set-up for Dean!Michael, and while some of the other proofs you cite may have been intended that way, I think there's a line between not telegraphing your plotlines too overtly and being unnecessarily coy, and the writers wound up on the wrong side of it. The possibility of bringing our Michael into the fight should have been articulated -- and, temporarily, dismissed -- sometime this season, and Dean and/or Sam's identity, not just as people who had been to hell or stopped an apocalypse, but as angel vessels should also have been mentioned. I'm not saying we needed an episode where everyone sat around and discussed whether or not Dean should say "yes" to Michael, but there should have been set-up beyond thematic parallels and rather generic and/or indirect references that don't meaningfully reinforce the connection between Dean and our Michael.

I also don't think this is consistent with the show's normal plotting (or the plotting of most narratives, for that matter). S5 ended with Sam saying yes to Lucifer, after a season of explicit discussion of Sam and Dean's status as vessels and whether or not they were going to ultimately accept their role. Cas spends S6 being sketchy and desperately trying to get more power to stop Raphael, and then he takes on too much power and has it go entirely to his head. The Leviathans being monsters from purgatory is a core element of S7, and then Dean winds up in Purgatory. In S10, we spend a lot of time talking about how risky it is to use the Book of the Damned and questioning whether or not removing the Mark from Dean is worth the price, and they remove the mark, and a mysterious "darkness" is released. In S11, after worrying that the connection between them means he won't be able to stop Amara, Dean decides to sacrifice himself but then winds up using that connection to convince her to choose a better path. There are often also surprises that haven't been set up in this way, but when it comes to the major choices that our characters make at the end of season long arcs, those choices have actually been fairly explicitly set up, not vaguely alluded to or coyly hinted at. We don't know exactly how the vessel plot, or Cas's attempts at getting power, or Dean's connection with Amara will resolve itself, which is why these plots still have dramatic tension, but we at least know that those are key parts of those characters' journeys for the season.

We don't, IMO, have anything comparable with Dean!Michael, which is why I see it as a poorly written arc. 

[belbar]

I'm gonna throw a crazy idea out there. What if they give us what we want but not the way we want it? Remember that?

With AU Micahel and Lucifer both in our world odds are a new apocalypse is coming (we all agree on that), and back we're to the starting point, a fight between them. In the preview we see two things. AU Michael with bleeding eyes and saying this is the end. But we also see Lucifer attacking Sam (and hard) and Michael choking Dean (and to top it all off Dean says "eat me"). And finally we see Dean "flying" in a fight with Lucifer.

Now the theory of Michael Dean is well and dandy, but what if the combination would not be Michael Dean but ALT Michael Dean?

Bear with me for a minute. Dean sees Lucifer about to kill Sam, steps up and accepts being ALT Michael vessel to be able to kill Lucifer and save Sam.

I don't like it, but it'd fit everything.

Dean has already seen his brother die a few hours/days before. He's facing again that same scene of his nightmares : Lucifer killing Sam. There's no time for plans, it's now or Sam dies. ALT Michael is the only one with a chance of killing Lucifer (Jack already refused) and apparently is there and at least his vessel is damaged (bleeding eyes?). Dean steps up and sacrifices himself once more and accepts or even propose being ALT Michael vessel. After all he's still the OTV and that way he can finally confront Lucifer, fight him and at least try to kill him.

I hate to say if but it all fits.

They give us what everybody has been asking for (according to them bitching), Dean steps up to the ocassion (in the clip we even listen to Dean saying we're gonna make mistakes), open a new line of plots for next season (Sam trying to save Dean again) . Final unexpected twist (how cool we are. Pat pat)  Rinse and repeat and all that on the nose (you see? we didn't want for this to happen back in S05. Stop bitching. We know better).

I know it's a crazy idea. But after watching the promo for next week, that's what I thought? What do you guys think, could it be a possibility?

[Bobcatkitten]

The flying, um, I'm not sure about. I get the Dean saying yes to Michael thing. But how in the world does this connect to the period dress we saw Jensen in and him walking down a street? 

[belbar]

25 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

The flying, um, I'm not sure about. I get the Dean saying yes to Michael thing. But how in the world does this connect to the period dress we saw Jensen in and him walking down a street? 

Not a clue to be honest. I don't see a way to reconcile that image with any of the possible outcomes for the finale. How we go from the Dean we know to a character dressing in last century mid 20s outfit is beyond me.

I just thought after watching the preview that they could go that route. I don't like it, but it would make more sense at this moment, than trying to bring back the original Michael in a 30 seconds scene out of the blue. Not arguing that everybody is expecting that or that it'd be a "very Winchesters" like. What I think is that in a 42 min episode there's no time for all of that. Too rushed.

Edited May 11, 2018 by belbar

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Bear with me for a minute. Dean sees Lucifer about to kill Sam, steps up and accepts being ALT Michael vessel to be able to kill Lucifer and save Sam.

That`s not stepping up, that`s handing over the entire world to AU!Michael - who, we know, turned his world into a nightmare - just for selfish, pathetic reasons. It would be atrocious. Dean would basically be over as a character. 

I`m actually clinging to the "it`s a character we haven`t seen in many years" thing. Because we have only seen AU!Michael this year. 

Also, there is the bleeding eyes. Maybe Rowena hits him with a spell and AU!Michael somehow gets taken out this way.   

Quote

The flying, um, I'm not sure about.

The flying looks just stupid. 

Though now we know what Jensen was talking about with the physicality: freaking wireworks. 

Why would they do that? It looks dumb as shit. Angels should fight with their powers. Did they blow the CGI budget already? Wireworks. Urgh. 

Quote

After all he's still the OTV and that way he can finally confront Lucifer, fight him and at least try to kill him.

No matter which Michael, very unlikely to be happening, the killing Lucifer part that is. Not with their uber-infatuation with Lucifer and Pellegrino. 

So there won`t even be a heroic pay-off. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Aeryn13

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, belbar said:

But after watching the promo for next week, that's what I thought? What do you guys think, could it be a possibility?

After watching that promo, anything's possible, IMO. Even LuciferDean. I mean, if that's Dean who's doing the "flying", what's going to happen after they crash into each other?

But I'm losing hope that it's CageMichael, too, because of the time constraints, as you mentioned

Edited May 11, 2018 by Myrelle

[belbar]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

That`s not stepping up, that`s handing over the entire world to AU!Michael - who, we know, turned his world into a nightmare - just for selfish, pathetic reasons. It would be atrocious. Dean would basically be over as a character. 

I`m actually clinging to the "it`s a character we haven`t seen in many years" thing. Because we have only seen AU!Michael this year. 

Also, there is the bleeding eyes. Maybe Rowena hits him with a spell and AU!Michael somehow gets taken out this way.

I didn't remember the part of the character we haven't seen in years. You're totally right.

I agree with you. It would be a awful move. And I also agree that it'd ruin the character. And I'd hate it. Just what I thought after watching the promo. I hope they don't do it. It's just that as you can see I don't trust Dabb, and still don't see how they're going to wrap all in just one episode.

Don't get me wrong, It's not what I want. It's what the promo led to me think, of course we all know how misleading they can be.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But I'm losing hope that it's CageMichael, too, because of the time constraints, as you mentioned.

They can invent some cockamamie thing that once AU!Michael enters our world, it somehow frees cage!Michael and a 2 minute scene where he suddenly appears and Dean say yes. A randomely rushed Finale with no real properly set-up storyline is quite like the show. 

So yes, normally, it would be too late. But not on this show. 

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

They can invent some cockamamie thing that once AU!Michael enters our world, it somehow frees cage!Michael and a 2 minute scene where he suddenly appears and Dean say yes. A randomely rushed Finale with no real properly set-up storyline is quite like the show. 

So yes, normally, it would be too late. But not on this show. 

I hope you're right.

My hopes are sinking by the second. :-/

[Aeryn13]

Oh, I`m terrified. 

In the promo in the Gas`n Sip there is a bit where you can see Sam and Cas cover their ears whereas Dean doesn`t. He screams "run". Now he either hears AU!Michael`s "true voice" or cage!Michael`s.  

And in the scene where AU!Michael chokes Dean, you can see Sam`s crumbled form on the floor. Well, you can see the plaid shirt. 

Somehow methinks someone else is taking out AU!Mike. He might be a red herring here.

Fingers crossed. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Aeryn13

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh, I`m terrified. 

Going to the bitter spoilers thread.