Spoilers With Speculation

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

Alrighty then, thanks for pointing out my laughably flawed interpretation of Crowley and Dean, clearly I'm just delusional.

Well I previously thought he was a brother in arms but now I might have to reconsider, lol.

Oh thank goodness! I thought perhaps you were one off those stans ... my mistake.

You can have your opinions on Crowley.

For me Dean and Crowley got to the end of Casablanca.. the start of a beautiful friendship.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Crowley received a shout out from Dean after he died and Dean ackonwkedged his sacrifice to Rowena. I do believehe has earned his stripes.

Because Dean was broken and grieving and the writers couldn't let there be too much Destiel with Dean only grieving Cas, so they threw in 'everyone'. At best, Crowley became a frienemy but IMo that's pushing it. The only palling around that happened was between Demon Dean and Crowley.

And going forward, Ketch doesn't even deserve anything close to the non-bromance of Dean and Crowley. Don't get me wrong. Dean and Crowley are amusing as hell to watch but they are not friends. Ketch and Dean are not friends. They aren't even frienemies. 

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Because Dean was broken and grieving and the writers couldn't let there be too much Destiel with Dean only grieving Cas, so they threw in 'everyone'. At best, Crowley became a frienemy but IMo that's pushing it. The only palling around that happened was between Demon Dean and Crowley.

And going forward, Ketch doesn't even deserve anything close to the non-bromance of Dean and Crowley. Don't get me wrong. Dean and Crowley are amusing as hell to watch but they are not friends. Ketch and Dean are not friends. They aren't even frienemies. 

Crowley and Dean have something.... it's a lopsided something but it is tangible.

Ketch and Dean are just fun to watch.  Dean and Ketch in AU land was riveting. Psycho torture Ketch trying to bond with Dean was riveting .

They are both great actors and play well off each other. Not saying Dean likes him.  Ketch is a good match in terms of his skill set and competence.

Not saying he is a buddy but he would make the great fourth guy that no one really likes. One needs one of those on a guys hunting trip vehicle.

It is my spin off so I get to choose. 

Anyhow the fun part is everyone meshes with Dean on some level but grates on each other and this makes Dean extra grumpy.  I love grumpy Dean.

Cas and Benny harping on each other in Purgatory was hilarious.  More please.

Poor Dean he just wants to have a good slice n dice.  Crowley just wants to be with Dean.  Cas and Benny will not stop with the insults.  Ketch just keeps sharpening his blade and saying Good lad.

And Sam is annoyed that Dean is off again hunting with those other guys eating god knows what.  He especially hates that Dean resurrectef Benny.

What else does one need.  It is all of the best stuff from the last few years.

[SueB]

From Dean’s POV... it’s yet again another freakin Apocalypse.  And the chances that he’ll get Sam, Cas, Mary, and Jack safely back to the bunker without one of them dying?  Not all that good.  So I think Dean doesn’t have it in him to grieve again.  He’s got a ‘I’m so done’ attitude.  So he’s going to save all 4 or die trying.  Literally.  I think he can’t stand to fail again (in his mind, if they don’t live it’s his fault.. because it is... it’s how he rolls).  

And Sam sees it.  But if you were Sam, what would you do about it?  Warn Cas so he has a second set of eyes on Dean?  Let Dean call the play so Dean doesn’t go off on his own?  IDK.  Sam’s in a pickle.  He’s got a twitchy Dean on his hands IMO.  

Edited April 27, 2018 by SueB

[Castiels Cat]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

From Dean’s POV... it’s yet again another freakin Apocalypse.  And the chances that he’ll get Sam, Cas, Mary, and Jack safely back to the bunker without one of them dying?  Not all that good.  So I think Dean doesn’t have it in him to grieve again.  He’s got a ‘I’m so done’ attitude.  So he’s going to save all 4 or die trying.  Literally.  I think he can’t stand to fail again (in his mind, if they don’t live it’s his fault.. because it is... it’s how he rolls).  

And Sam sees it.  But if you were Sam, what would you do about it?  Warn Cas so he has a second set of eyes on Dean?  Let Dean call the play so Dean doesn’t go off on his own?  IDK.  Sam’s in a pickle.  He’s got a twitchy Dean on his hands IMO.  

I totally agree.  

Dean has been risking himself all season and Advanced Thanatology was just the scariest version and dress rehersal.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I do think Crowley was kind of obsessed with Dean. Crowley never understood that Dean didn't like him. I think Dean put up with him more after they caroused a while.

 As to Dean having other friends in the future...I don't see that with Ketch who IMO has his own agenda for helping.  I think it's likely that the show is going to have Gabriel around for Sam and Cas for Dean.

They really do. There is no way the show will kill off Dean only to bring back Jensen full time playing someone else nor would Jensen accept that as a long term thing. No way. He won't finish the show playing a different character other than Dean Winchester. NO WAY

He could literally be Dean!Michael forever and simply be Dean some of the time and Michael some of the time.   

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

He could literally be Dean!Michael forever and simply be Dean some of the time and Michael some of the time.   

I don't think Jensen would agree to that. 

I mean if the showrunners and writers care about Jensen's view on Dean, I think he would want Dean to die as 100% Dean Winchesters. Not Michael!Dean and Not Demon Dean.

Edited April 27, 2018 by catrox14

[Castiels Cat]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I don't think Jensen would agree to that.

Why not.  

Dean still exists.  Just not in every episode perhaps. 

They have already experimented with separating the brothers this season more than in previous seasons.

I think they are planning to tweak the format to keep the show alive longer.  

This by necessity means mixing it up. Separate storylines.

IDK.

They need the show because of the ratings 

They cannot keep doing the same thing because the actors are exhausted and their salaries are too expensive.  They have to mix it up.  The answer is to diversify the storylines. Add more leads. Use them less. Jared in particular seems,to suffer from exhaustion issues.

I think changes coukd be happening. 

One never knows. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Why not.

I explained why not.

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Season finale description.  I fixed the typo though.

SUPERNATURAL
“Let the Good Times Roll” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THIS – Our heroes, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) Winchester, continue to be tested in the battle between good and evil, but one impulsive decision could alter the lives of one the brothers forever. (for three episodes) Robert Singer directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb (#1323). Original airdate 5/17/2018.

 

https://www.spoilertv.com/2018/04/supernatural-episode-1323-let-good.html

They really need to stop saying forever.

"One impulsive decision", eh?

Looks like the promo monkeys are at it again.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

"One impulsive decision", eh?

Looks like the promo monkeys are at it again

Unless all this set up or pointing to Jensen's new character is just one big bait and switch and it's an impulsive act by someone else they are talking about.

[Myrelle]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Unless all this set up or pointing to Jensen's new character is just one big bait and switch and it's an impulsive act by someone else they are talking about.

It's Dean. The writers on this show don't see the character in the same light that Jensen does. Thank God.

For Jensen, that is. ;-)

[Castiels Cat]

I did think they were setting up a new Apocalypse with Dean!Michael killing Lucifer.... not so sure now.  Because it sure looks like they are setting Sam up inexplicably to finally need to kill Lucifer and perhaps the death of ... Rowena/Gabriel/... will be the final straw to motivate him.

If so then Maybe AU Michael is not the Macguffin I thought he was. It would  apoear thst he has the spell to come here and that may happen whilst  the Winchesters  are there.  Suicide Kevin Tran was brutal.

Still getting on Dean going on a reckless solo suicide  mission  leading to Dean!Michael. It is the only constant that make a sense. Too much layered build up in my opinion.

41 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

"One impulsive decision", eh?

Looks like the promo monkeys are at it again.

That sounds like one of Dean's characteristic solo self sacrifice moves to save someone/world that typically end up with him "altered" if they aren't outright life threatening.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Because Dean was broken and grieving and the writers couldn't let there be too much Destiel with Dean only grieving Cas, so they threw in 'everyone'. At best, Crowley became a frienemy but IMo that's pushing it. The only palling around that happened was between Demon Dean and Crowley.

And going forward, Ketch doesn't even deserve anything close to the non-bromance of Dean and Crowley. Don't get me wrong. Dean and Crowley are amusing as hell to watch but they are not friends. Ketch and Dean are not friends. They aren't even frienemies. 

Dean was grieving the loss of his mother too which far exceeding the loss of Cas. I say this as someone who is a huge fan of the profound bond.  The feelings that Dean has for his mother are strong and deep and complex.  The guy has a shrine to her inside of his heart.

He did not have to mention Crowley at all.

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Season finale description.  I fixed the typo though.

SUPERNATURAL
“Let the Good Times Roll” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THIS – Our heroes, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) Winchester, continue to be tested in the battle between good and evil, but one impulsive decision could alter the lives of one the brothers forever. (for three episodes) Robert Singer directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb (#1323). Original airdate 5/17/2018.

 

https://www.spoilertv.com/2018/04/supernatural-episode-1323-let-good.html

They really need to stop saying forever.

The title sucks.

 

 

Surely they could do better...

something dystopian...

All better off the top of my head...

New Order's Blue Monday

Echo and the Bunnymen, the killing moon

Rolling Stones – ‘Gimme Shelter’

Talking Heads – ‘Road to Nowhere’

Johnny Cash – ‘Ain’t No Grave’

[companionenvy]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean was grieving the loss of his mother too which far exceeding the loss of Cas. I say this as someone who is a huge fan of the profound bond.  The feelings that Dean has for his mother are strong and deep and complex.  The guy has a shrine to her inside of his heart.

I don't think Dean was grieving Cas less than Mary at all. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

I don't think Dean was grieving Cas less than Mary at all. 

Neither do I, and I am about as far from Destiel shipper as it gets. 

[ILoveReading]

My guess is that Sam is going to get killed or seriously injured in the next ep.  We see him covered in blood in the promo. 

Gabriel and Cas will drain their grace fixing him leaving no option but to say yes to Michael. 

[Aeryn13]

I hope "impulsive decision" is just the promo monkey trying to be vague yet exciting and what happens is a tad (lot) more profound than that. I mean, what, does the Finale happen and some character just walks past Dean and Dean randomly agrees to be possessed? 

Jensen phrased it as Dean "stepping up". So I would hope that happens for world-saving reasons. It was one thing to trade away his own soul but giving Michael (if it is Michael) a prime vessel shouldn`t be done for "oh my special family" reasons. He didn`t say yes even when Sam`s life was threatened in the Season 5 Premiere.

The set-up is there to have a lot of good reasons to say "yes", what with AU-Michael and Heaven falling apart. Pick one, writers. Well, I hope that`s what they did. 

Next episode clearly deals with some vengeance kink on Lucifer which is just so out of left field now. I mean, Rowena would take the opportunity, sure but if Sam wanted vengeance on Lucifer with a, well, vengeance, then the final stretch of Season 11 with the therapy hour in the bunker really makes no sense. Thing is, that stuff already happened so try as the writers might, they can`t wave it away. 

I continue to be very wary of how it all shakes out.

[Bobcatkitten]

I thought the prearticles about Gabriel and Sam and Dean were off. I didn't see a bond in the show or any alpha male stuff. They interacted well.

 

As for the new spoiler - my guess given the vengeance them - is that Sam goes for the kill on Lucifer and that someone causes Dean to be this other character. 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I thought the prearticles about Gabriel and Sam and Dean were off. I didn't see a bond in the show or any alpha male stuff. They interacted well.

As for the new spoiler - my guess given the vengeance them - is that Sam goes for the kill on Lucifer and that someone causes Dean to be this other character. 

I think Rich is a good convention emcee (when he has Rob as a foil). He should stick with that, because when it comes to the show and characters/characterizations, he has his head up his ass. I submit his take on Just My Imagination as exhibit #1. This round of interviews only adds to the list.

Damnit, I allowed myself to get excited over the season ending eps and Jensen's new character and now I'm kicking my own ass, because I should've known better. Dabb just can't help himself.

[Bobcatkitten]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think Rich is a good convention emcee (when he has Rob as a foil). He should stick with that, because when it comes to the show and characters/characterizations, he has his head up his ass. I submit his take on Just My Imagination as exhibit #1. This round of interviews only adds to the list.

Damnit, I allowed myself to get excited over the season ending eps and Jensen's new character and now I'm kicking my own ass, because I should've known better. Dabb just can't help himself.

I'm still totally excited to see Jensen play a new character. Michael? Death? Loki? We should just stop reading the preview pieces. 

[belbar]

15 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

As for the new spoiler - my guess given the vengeance them - is that Sam goes for the kill on Lucifer and that someone causes Dean to be this other character

After last night episode, unfortunately I think that you're right. We'll probably "enjoy" another cup of Sam vs Lucifer.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, belbar said:

After last night episode, unfortunately I think that you're right. We'll probably "enjoy" another cup of Sam vs Lucifer.

When it's about Sam, it's about Sam. And when it's about Dean, it's still about Sam.

That has been the show's overall MO, and under Dabb it has only intensified. I have little doubt now that Jensen's new character* will be a direct result of, and revolve around, Sam.

* @Bobcatkitten you are right though, seeing who the character is and what Jensen does with the role is exciting. Frankly, it's all I'm hanging my hat on these days. Show DGAF about the (his)story, why should I?

[Aeryn13]

I think they will have a confrontation (or maybe this will be just Rowena) in the next episode but after that we know Lucifer and Jack spent some quality time together. Then it`s already the Finale and there needs to be some set-up for whoever character Dean is going to play in that episode. Because so far, we got nothing in-story. 

At this point, I almost wonder if it`s AU!Michael for some weird reason. Because they certainly haven`t talked about Prime!Michael in any way, shape or form. Unless that happens in episodes 21 or 22, the Finale will have to do a lot of set-up to even have a cliffhanger conclusion.   

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I hope "impulsive decision" is just the promo monkey trying to be vague yet exciting and what happens is a tad (lot) more profound than that. I mean, what, does the Finale happen and some character just walks past Dean and Dean randomly agrees to be possessed? 

Jensen phrased it as Dean "stepping up". So I would hope that happens for world-saving reasons. It was one thing to trade away his own soul but giving Michael (if it is Michael) a prime vessel shouldn`t be done for "oh my special family" reasons. He didn`t say yes even when Sam`s life was threatened in the Season 5 Premiere.

The set-up is there to have a lot of good reasons to say "yes", what with AU-Michael and Heaven falling apart. Pick one, writers. Well, I hope that`s what they did. 

Next episode clearly deals with some vengeance kink on Lucifer which is just so out of left field now. I mean, Rowena would take the opportunity, sure but if Sam wanted vengeance on Lucifer with a, well, vengeance, then the final stretch of Season 11 with the therapy hour in the bunker really makes no sense. Thing is, that stuff already happened so try as the writers might, they can`t wave it away. 

I continue to be very wary of how it all shakes out.

ITA with everything here-and the bolded parts especially-because Dabb just keeps proving that he's completely ignorant of show canon in numerous areas, but especially with past characterization of the two leads, so yeah, I'm getting more wary with every episode that doesn't mention OWMichael, too.

Maybe he is going to become AUMichael. The actor who's portrayed him the few times that we've seen him this season IS involved with another project now from what I've read.

[ILoveReading]

15 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

ITA with everything here-and the bolded parts especially-because Dabb just keeps proving that he's completely ignorant of show canon in numerous areas, but especially with past characterization of the two leads, so yeah, I'm getting more wary with every episode that doesn't mention OWMichael, too.

I will respond in bitter spoilers just to be on the safe side.

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

My guess is that Sam is going to get killed or seriously injured in the next ep.  We see him covered in blood in the promo. 

Gabriel and Cas will drain their grace fixing him leaving no option but to say yes to Michael. 

I really hate those strobe light promos but yeah looks so....  good Dean trigger too of course.

Blow me up Kevin Tran makes me think that AU Michael may resurrect John Dad Vessel for maximum psychological torture value.  He was in Mary's head.  He knows about John.  He knows,she believes her boys will come...

Should be interesting.

Given Dean's state, the upcoming clusterFCK,  Sam's going to be a bloody dumbass... everything falling apart, Gabriel akrea dy doesn't have enough grace to spare...

Hell yes Dean is going to be Dean!Michael... at this point all roads lead there ..  I know I have been saying it for far too long but really at this point all of the roads lead there... Dean!Michael is Rome.

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, Myrelle said:

ITA with everything here-and the bolded parts especially-because Dabb just keeps proving that he's completely ignorant of show canon in numerous areas, but especially with past characterization of the two leads, so yeah, I'm getting more wary with every episode that doesn't mention OWMichael, too.

Maybe he is going to become AUMichael. The actor who's portrayed him the few times that we've seen him this season IS involved with another project now from what I've read.

Naw.  Not AU Michael. That dude just unleashed a suicide bomber.  No way.  

Totally getting Dean!Michael.  It has been set up a zillion ways for 2 seasons.  I have Italian witch blood. I have seen it since October 2016 and have been watching for the signs since then...

They just are trying not to spoil it.

Sam now has his little project of killing sad little lucifer who is weak and full of feels.  Gag me with a spoon.  This season is whack a mole. Every time they end one olot a new one springs up.

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think they will have a confrontation (or maybe this will be just Rowena) in the next episode but after that we know Lucifer and Jack spent some quality time together. Then it`s already the Finale and there needs to be some set-up for whoever character Dean is going to play in that episode. Because so far, we got nothing in-story. 

At this point, I almost wonder if it`s AU!Michael for some weird reason. Because they certainly haven`t talked about Prime!Michael in any way, shape or form. Unless that happens in episodes 21 or 22, the Finale will have to do a lot of set-up to even have a cliffhanger conclusion.   

AU Michael just set up a suicide bomber and aporopriated Mark Shepoard's line. So no.  Dean is not going to be AU Michael.  That is not "stepping up" a character from way back in the show's past, now would Jensen be excited or talking about doing homework or filling shoes.

It is going to be our Michael.  Too many anchors, anvils, hints, clues,  callbacks, etc. For 2 seasons.

If anything look upon Sam killing Lucifer as closing the door on Sam's apocalyptic role whereas Dean never opened his door because he has not said yes yet.

I know... thickest, rosiest Dean goggles 

9 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I'm still totally excited to see Jensen play a new character. Michael? Death? Loki? We should just stop reading the preview pieces. 

Loki is about the silliest idea I ever heard.

I am not at all sold on Death either.

And fans criticize the writers about LOL canon...

I am solidly in the Dean!Michael camp.

[Castiels Cat]

14 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Neither do I, and I am about as far from Destiel shipper as it gets. 

I speak as someone who has lost both parents, one of who I was estranged from.  The bond is irreplaceable.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

AU Michael just set up a suicide bomber and aporopriated Mark Shepoard's line. So no.  Dean is not going to be AU Michael.  That is not "stepping up" a character from way back in the show's past, now would Jensen be excited or talking about doing homework or filling shoes.

It's possible Dean says yes to AU Michael in an effort to control him and make him jump in the cage hoping to take Lucifer with him.   So it could fit with "Stepping up"

5 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

It is going to be our Michael.  Too many anchors, anvils, hints, clues,  callbacks, etc. For 2 seasons.

I don't think Our Michael has been mentioned once this season and the one one time he was mentioned last season was tied more to Sam.  They went out of their way to invalidate Cage Michael in s11.   I don't see these anvils, hints or clues.  

 

7 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

If anything look upon Sam killing Lucifer as closing the door on Sam's apocalyptic role whereas Dean never opened his door because he has not said yes yet.

As for as I know Lucifer is in the finale.  So I don't think Sam's role is closed. 

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

It's possible Dean says yes to AU Michael in an effort to control him and make him jump in the cage hoping to take Lucifer with him.   So it could fit with "Stepping up"

I don't think Our Michael has been mentioned once this season and the one one time he was mentioned last season was tied more to Sam.  They went out of their way to invalidate Cage Michael in s11.   I don't see these anvils, hints or clues.  

 

As for as I know Lucifer is in the finale.  So I don't think Sam's role is closed. 

Sam wants to kill him. Lucifer has no use for him. This is a door closing.  He literally has no apocalyptic role.

Heaven needs a fully powered archangel to step up.  That is neither Lucifer or Gabriel. 

There is no archangel strong enough to oppose Michael and no angel army to fight his.  Only Jack.  Apparently Jack is stronger than his angeks but has not faced Michael yet.  Jack is not smarter than Michael and easily broken and manipulated.  Dean!Michael most likely woukd be stronger, smarter and more ruthless and manipulative because Michael woukd have his OTV and Dean is the best BAMFBDH.

Every time AU Michael is mentioned it is reference to our world's Michael.  They do not need to say his name because we know he exists and where he is.

He was mentioned by name during the exorcism the last time we saw Lucifer.

Pretty sure we were meant to believe Dean thought of him when the camera focused on his face at the exact moment Cas said they needed archangel grace.

No one powerful is in hell to block access to the cage.  Rowena is still alive.  Billie is on Team Dean and seems to want him akive because he has "work to do".  Jessica was there to keep Dean alive from his encounter with a red haired witch.

This is all off the top of my head without benefit of a rewatch.  So yeah...  

AU Michael does not fit any Jensen's spoilers. He is not from way back in the past. He requires no homework.   Jensen would not be excited because that guy doesn't have a personality.  

The last time Jensen talked about homework was when he and Matt worked out how to play Michael together as I recall.

They wouldn't be circling back to the Apocalypse and spending 2 seasons of set up for Dean just to have him play that guy with no personality and anger management issues for 15 minutes.  Especially not when they just introduced a major world breaking problem in heaven that requires Michael to fix.  Especially not when Death is tailing your ass because she needs you to stay alive to do this big thing. 

Gosh.  

[Casseiopeia]

So I just had a thought and I haven't read everyone's speculation so maybe this has already been suggested but Jensen said that he had very large shoes to fill and this was a character we haven't seen in a very long time. Jared was getting goosebumps and tears after reading the script. I know all signs point to Michael but whose large shoes is Jensen filling?  Matt's, Jake?  I find that very hard to believe.  Goosebumps and tears?  For Michael? I find that a real stretch.   What if it is John?  There isn't any role that would be more of a challenge than one of the most iconic characters in television.  This may be how we eventually get JDM back on the show before it ends.  I would love to see what Jensen would do with that role.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[belbar]

10 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

So I just had a thought and I haven't read everyone's speculation so maybe this has already been suggested but Jensen said that he had very large shoes to fill and this was a character we haven't seen in a very long time. Jared was getting goosebumps and tears after reading the script. I know all signs point to Michael but whose large shoes is Jensen filling?  Matt's?  I find that very hard to believe.  Goosebumps and tears?  For Michael? I find that a real stretch.   What if it is John?  There isn't any role that would be more of a challenge than one of the most iconic characters in television.  This may be how we eventually get JDM back on the show before it ends.  I would love to see what Jensen would do with that role.

That was my first thought when I heard Jensen's comment. He respects deeply JDM and John's character. If we go by what he said in the convention that would be a logical conclusion. However as much as I'd like it, I don't see it. It's not beyond the realm of possibility but no very likely IMO. 

Truth is everyone and their cousing are putting their money on Michael and all seems to indicate that we're headed to Apocalypse 300. I guess we'll know soon enough.

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, belbar said:

That was my first thought when I heard Jensen's comment. He respects deeply JDM and John's character. If we go by what he said in the convention that would be a logical conclusion. However as much as I'd like it, I don't see it. It's not beyond the realm of possibility but no very likely IMO. 

Truth is everyone and their cousing are putting their money on Michael and all seems to indicate that we're headed to Apocalypse 300. I guess we'll know soon enough.

I know all signs seem to point that way but it just doesn't fit with "large shoes" and "tears and goosebumps".  But you're right we will know in a few weeks.  

[belbar]

2 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I know all signs seem to point that way but it just doesn't fit with "large shoes" and "tears and goosebumps".  But you're right we will know in a few weeks.  

We can hope together if you want, because man as Jensen said once, I'd love to see a conversation with John about how he raised them. A confrontation between both of them now that Dean's a grown man and not an impresossionable and heavily influenced young man.

But then again, with the current writers and after what they did with Mary I wouldn't trust them with John. It was bad enough as it is.

[Casseiopeia]

17 minutes ago, belbar said:

We can hope together if you want, because man as Jensen said once, I'd love to see a conversation with John about how he raised them. A confrontation between both of them now that Dean's a grown man and not an impresossionable and heavily influenced young man.

But then again, with the current writers and after what they did with Mary I wouldn't trust them with John. It was bad enough as it is.

That's true.  I would hate to see John deconstructed like Mary and every other doornial has been in the last 2 seasons.

[Castiels Cat]

Here is my wild spec of the day.

Remember how after Sam prayed to God on season 11 Lucifer responded. 

Well Dean prayed to God in 13:1. Perhaps Cage Michael has been talking to him

 

If these writers love anything it is a big flashback reveal.

On 4/27/2018 at 10:19 PM, Casseiopeia said:

That's true.  I would hate to see John deconstructed like Mary and every other doornial has been in the last 2 seasons.

How would this work. John's ghost possesses Dean if and when heaven falls apart? 

Why would John want to possess Dean.  Why would an involuntary possession be stepping up.

Not sure a ghost can solve their mounting problems. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Casseiopeia]

13 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Here is my wild spec of the day.

Remember how after Sam prayed to God on season 11 Lucifer responded. 

Well Dean prayed to God in 13:1. Perhaps Cage Michael has been talking to him

 

If these writers love anything it is a big flashback reveal.

How would this work. John's ghost possesses Dean off and when heaven falls apart? 

Why would John want to possess Dean.  Why would an involuntary possession be stepping up.

Not sure a ghost can solve their mounting problems. 

 

All we know is  that Dean becomes a different character.  There is really no indication at this point that Dean is possessed by anything or anyone.  We know that it is someone from very far back in the series, Dabb and Singer say it is a huge risk for the show to take, Jensen has said it is very large shoes to fill and it brought tears to Jared's eyes.  None of that sounds like Michael to me.  Jared whispered a line to Jensen at the last convention from the series finale that he felt the fans were going to love.  Jensen playfully said we were going to "hate it".  As in he thinks it will be mind blowing.  What line did Michael ever say that would shock and awe us?  

We got to see Sam's visions of Lucifer messing with his mind.  It would be a serious crime if Michael has been talking to Dean all this time and we didn't get to see it.  Didn't Rowena fix the cage anyway so that Michael couldn't get out?  Only she could open it?  How would Michael be communicating with Dean?

Edited April 28, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

All we know is  that Dean becomes a different character.  There is really no indication at this point that Dean is possessed by anything or anyone.  All we know is  that it is someone from very far back in the series, Dabb and Singer say it is a huge risk for the show to take, Jensen has said it is very large shoes to fill and it brought tears to Jared's eyes.  None of that sounds like Michael to me.  Jared whispered a line to Jensen at the last convention from the series finale that he felt the fans were going to love.  Jensen playfully said we were going to "hate it".  As in he thinks it will be mind blowing.  What line did Michael ever say that would shock and awe us?  

We got to see Sam's visions of Lucifer messing with his mind.  It would be a serious crime if Michael has been talking to Dean all this time and we didn't get to see it.  Didn't Rowena fix the cage anyway so that Michael couldn't get out?  Only she could open it?  How would Michael be communicating with Dean?

How would Rowena fix the cage.  She warded the helll out of it I suspect as best she could given her capabilities at the time... and yet Crowley managed to outmaneuver her so she was not magicalky omnipotent.  Maybe Crowkey messed up her warding too.  And given the existence of LOL canon... this is a minor quibble. 

These writers love their flashbacks.  They have already overused them to death.  I honestly can see them show us this in flashback for shock and awe   But honestly it is just a random thought.  I realized that he prayed in the episode just like Sam did in 11 and extrapolated from there.  Sam just had a couple of lousy dreams. Nothing  special about those visions except that poor Sam thought they were from God.

Then I had a crazier idea…..
maybe crazy Michael was that crazy thing in the empty and he escaped the cage went to the empty,, resurrected Cas and has been hiding in him on the down low. I
mean why did I have to watch that weird scene with Cas and some crazy black goo thing.
FCK if I know why they threw that in there.  Because he is crazy ass Michael!! Which totally explains the weird looks, and his verbal torture of Lucifer, and the crazy old fadhioned duds in rhe spoiler photos.

It kind of makes sense now. If Cage Michael is actually crazy Michael then that crazy goo thing could be Michael and being the firstborn he may know how to resurrect angels. We do not know what Michael can do. Biblical lore often conflated him with the Messiah and Jesus.  Well that is my crazy spec  one presumes that scene was there for some reason and he was crazy which is what We have heard in regards to Michael.

Dean!Michael makes actual sense given the actual writing of the actual show.  

Spoilers are what they are.  Meant to tease and mislead.

We will know soon enough.

Jensen might think playing a part Matt Cohen originated is filling big shoes, especially when he helped Matt develop the character approach, wgich I believe tbeybreferred to as foing rheir homework, and fanboy'd the End result. From what I have seen they are good friends.

For  Singer a big risk is making any storyline about Dean.  This season has been pretty Deanish from my persoective but then I have my tragic flaw/ psychological take which meshes with what I am seeing on screen.  I literally predicted the meltdown in Advanced Thanotology  the week before it happened in a post on another site complete with the suicide to save family and Dean saying he just needed a win.  It was obvious that was where his arc was going.  Still is.

A big risk might be for Dean to make a deal meaning he would allow Michael to timeshare for the long haul.  I think at this point Dean would negotiate.  We saw him negotiate with Death. And Amael already introduced the idea of a,quid pro quo arrangement.   Dean lets  Michael do what Michael needs to do when Michael needs to do it in exchange for what Dean wants. 

Latest promo suggests bloody Sammy.  Always a good trigger plus possible invasion Apocalypse Now here with no one capable to defend our world. Jack has mojo but he is too innocent, too easily crushed, has to deal with daddy and may become tainted or crippled by grief/power/Lucifer.  I am not sure he can do it because the focus is not on him especially end of season.  He may save Sam from dearh by killing Lucifer but Sam is badly wounded?

It is hard to say with this whack-a-mole plotting and too many characters.

Oh... there was one kind of academic hint suggesting Dean!Michael.  According to Wiki in Jewish tradition the killer of Gog and Magog is the Messiah.  Some scholars think Old Testament references to the Messiah actually refer to Michael because he does a lot of the stuff Jesus does... like defeat the devil.  So might explain that weird Gog and Magog scene and why Dean got both kills.

And there was a deliberate Mention of Michael during the exorcism.  I watch a lot of horror movies and I have never heard him mentioned in an exorcism 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

How would Rowena fix the cage.

Casifer asked Rowena if anyone else could open the cage after she sealed it shut.  When she told him no he "killed" her so it could never be opened.  It was her spell that should have sent Lucifer back to the cage had Crowley not interfered.  So far she is the only one who can open or close it.  It could be that is how Michael gets out and into Dean if that is where they are going with the "different" character.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/28/2018 at 4:53 AM, Casseiopeia said:

Casifer asked Rowena if anyone else could open the cage after she sealed it shut.  When she told him no he "killed" her so it could never be opened.  It was her spell that should have sent Lucifer back to the cage had Crowley not interfered.  So far she is the only one who can open or close it.  It could be that is how Michael gets out and into Dean if that is where they are going with the "different" character.

Yes... using the book of the Damned. She transferred Lucifer from the cage to a holding cell.  That had nothing to do with fixing it did it.

I mean yes... rhey cannot get out.  But whatever cracks rhat let him contact Sam may still remain.

I have this weird little bug in my head that I cannot shake.  

Advanced Thanotology was such a good episode... so important. Why the he'll was the crazy whackadoodle oil entity in there. 

Crazy right.

Crazy....

What if That was crazy Michael rhat escaped the cage and just slipped over to the empty for peace and quiet which is what you would do after being trapped in the cage for however many hundred of years it has been in cage time with Lucifer talking non-stop.

Then Cas wakes up and starts yapping. Cas whom he has not seen since he threw flaming holy oil on him... 

And he decides to have some fun.  He makes Cas a new body.  He knows how because he saw Chuck do it. And he hides quietly inside Cas or maybe Cas is trapped quietly inside him as per Lucifer and Michael knows how to completely mask his aura.  Lol canon means R here has always a way.

I just ask myself why was that perfect episode marred by that weird interlude.  Is it really a new character or is it one we know masquerading as sdome crazy new character. And who has been repeatedly described as crazy.

Dumb idea right. 

It is just that at the beginning of the sseason a reoccurring theme was masks and hidden personas.  We saw it repeatedly in more episodes and through Asmodeus' powers and more recently through Gabriel/Loki.   They never do rhat without a big payoff. I know some people think Naomi was suspicious... meh... not big enough.

Sure they can use us,for shock and awe wirh Dean at the end but we are already spoiled.

Hmmm

Edited April 30, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

Everyone has mental health issues this season....
Dean
Sam
Lucifer
Donatello
Gabriel
La bomba Kevin
Jack 
Mary
Naomi.
Playground Angel.

They are all loosing it.  So yes.  Cage Michael who I think really might be Empty Michael is going to be as crazy  as Lucifer intimated.

And  I finally realized who thst weird empty entity guru reninded me of... Heath Ledger's Joker. So if he is Michael maybe that explains the weird suit because ....  crazyvangelsxwear crazy suits....

So when we finally get Dean!Michael I predict that the show will try to borrow a bit of Gotham's dark zany  vibe.    Supernatural Asylum.

This falls under the realm of wild spec. 

I cannot shake the idea that they would not waste time on rhat stupid weird entity guy in the empty unless he was really important in Advanced Thanotology...  And he was the definition of crazy... and everyone is mentally ill this season...

And Michael is probably  going to be crazy like Lucifer said even though his pants are often on fire....

Just cannot get it out of my mind even though it seems so weird...

Plus the way Jensen cracked himself up apparently spoiling this... It made me think of Mischa playing that entity and Jensen having to do that as well as Matt Cohen's version...

I really hated that entity.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/27/2018 at 11:42 AM, Aeryn13 said:

I think they will have a confrontation (or maybe this will be just Rowena) in the next episode but after that we know Lucifer and Jack spent some quality time together. Then it`s already the Finale and there needs to be some set-up for whoever character Dean is going to play in that episode. Because so far, we got nothing in-story. 

At this point, I almost wonder if it`s AU!Michael for some weird reason. Because they certainly haven`t talked about Prime!Michael in any way, shape or form. Unless that happens in episodes 21 or 22, the Finale will have to do a lot of set-up to even have a cliffhanger conclusion.   

They kind of have talked about Our Michael.  

Every time AY Michael is mentioned it is a reminder of our our Michael.

Lucifer mentioned him to Cas.

They invoked him in an exorcism in a recent episode. 

Gog and Magog in Jewish tradition are killed by the messiah of the Apocalypse; also in the OT messiah is sometimes used to refer to Michael. Michael and Jesus get conflated in some texts...

Dean was specifically referred to as a perfect vessel in The Thing.

Then they just added a level 10 emergency in which heaven must have a fully functional fully powered archangel pronto or else.  Considering Lucifer is at low power and has no interest and Gabriel is at low power and no interest... neither qualify.  Both are probably red shirts at this point too because they are too weak to survive the AU for long.  That leaves Michael.

Finally we just learned two things in the last episode.  Michael has the spell so bed and his army are coming here. Jack is no match for him strategically or psychologically. Dean!Michael would outmatch AU Michael in every respect except for the army.

Now if my weird spec from other thread is right and the Empty entity was crazy Michael and he resurrected Cas'body and is hiding in Cas then the following could happen.  Jack could awaken other angels and Michael could resurrect their bodies for an army.  But this is weird spec.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Myrelle]

Quote

Well he wanted to hurt himself sure but he also knew it was the only way to kill Abbadon... two birds...

Quote

You seem to think that Dean has a death wish and that he's suicidal in general terms. But I don't see that. I think that he's had very low moments when has been reckless in some of his actions, and the lower he's the less carefully he behaves. I'm also perfectly aware that his low steem makes him see himself as expendable in some instances. But that doesn't automatically translate into an active suicidal behaviour. YMMV

Brought over from the episode thread quotes from Castiel's Cat and Belbar, respectively.

I'm bringing this to the spoiler thread because I'm wondering how they're going to get Dean to take on the new character. The episode description calls it an "impulsive" decision and I think that they're attempting to show us Dean going off the rails again, but he's doing it in the way that he usually does it, IMO-by throwing himself fully into the next hunt/mission-which is what Jensen said he did when he took on the MOC. I don't have a source for that, but I remember him saying it because it made sense to me.

I don't think that Dean has ever been "actively suicidal" meaning that he would take his own life or even hurt himself. He even told the Benny in his head in The Werther Project that there was "no honor" in that. But he told Billie this season that he WAS ready to go now. And she stated that she could see that he had "changed" in that regard also.

So death by hunt would be more of the way he would go, IMO, if he truly did not care anymore and this could involve throwing himself into the mission again, but what might make it different is if the mission demanded that he give up his consciousness and will in order for the mission to succeed. And if so, I wonder how hard he will fight against that this time.

I DO hope that there is a decent set-up for this new character... *eyes, fingers, toes and anything else that can be are all crossed for this*...

Edited April 30, 2018 by Myrelle

[Wynne88]

6 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean!Michael would outmatch AU Michael in every respect except for the army.

Why?  Dean is the perfect vessel in our world, but since he doesn't exist in the other one, I would assume someone else would fit the bill there - perhaps the vessel AU Michael is currently possessing.  And an army is a pretty big advantage.

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Brought over from the episode thread quotes from Castiel's Cat and Belbar, respectively.

I'm bringing this to the spoiler thread because I'm wondering how they're going to get Dean to take on the new character. The episode description calls it an "impulsive" decision and I think that they're attempting to show us Dean going off the rails again, but he's doing it in the way that he usually does it, IMO-by throwing himself fully into the next hunt/mission-which is what Jensen said he did when he took on the MOC. I don't have a source for that, but I remember him saying it because it made sense to me.

I don't think that Dean has ever been "actively suicidal" meaning that he would take his own life or even hurt himself. He even told the Benny in his head in The Werther Project that there was "no honor" in that. But he told Billie this season that he WAS ready to go now. And she stated that she could see that he had "changed" in that regard also.

So death by hunt would be more of the way he would go, IMO, if he truly did not care anymore and this could involve throwing himself into the mission again, but what might make it different is if the mission demanded that he give up his consciousness and will in order for the mission to succeed. And if so, I wonder how hard he will fight against that this time.

I DO hope that there is a decent set-up for this new character... *eyes, fingers, toes and anything else that can be are all crossed for this*...

I'm doing contortions right there with ya :)

I think there is a difference between a) being willing to die/sacrificing yourself for the greater good, b) being suicidal, and c) being suicidally reckless. IMO Dean has been all three at one time or another. IMO the only time Dean was ever suicidal was in Croatoan. He stayed with Sam knowing full well that either Sam was going to turn and kill him, or Sam was going to turn and he would have to kill him, after which he would have eaten his gun. The crossroads and the soul-bomb I see as the first thing - willing to die for the greater good (and he considered saving his little brother the greater good). Taking on the Mark, 'killing himself' for Sam's soul, for the kid-ghosts in the house, going after Abaddon and Metatron alone, jumping through the rift with a potential pyscho-murderer - suicidally reckless, which I classify as not actively seeking his own death, but indifferent to the possibility that it will end that way. IMO, most of the time Dean wants to punish himself, not kill himself - but too often that is the result.

I think his new character, whether Michael or Death or anyone else, will come as a result of a combination a and c. I don't think he's suicidal.

[belbar]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm doing contortions right there with ya :)

I think there is a difference between a) being willing to die/sacrificing yourself for the greater good, b) being suicidal, and c) being suicidally reckless. IMO Dean has been all three at one time or another. IMO the only time Dean was ever suicidal was in Croatoan. He stayed with Sam knowing full well that either Sam was going to turn and kill him, or Sam was going to turn and he would have to kill him, after which he would have eaten his gun. The crossroads and the soul-bomb I see as the first thing - willing to die for the greater good (and he considered saving his little brother the greater good). Taking on the Mark, 'killing himself' for Sam's soul, for the kid-ghosts in the house, going after Abaddon and Metatron alone, jumping through the rift with a potential pyscho-murderer - suicidally reckless, which I classify as not actively seeking his own death, but indifferent to the possibility that it will end that way. IMO, most of the time Dean wants to punish himself, not kill himself - but too often that is the result.

I think his new character, whether Michael or Death or anyone else, will come as a result of a combination a and c. I don't think he's suicidal.

I agree with you in almost everything you say here. Up to the point where you mention that most of the time he wants to punish himself. I think that he feels responsible for everything and tries to make right what he thinks has made wrong or has gone bad because of him. Not necessarily punishing himself. Problem is that he doen't value himself and therefore if the price for making right whatever is his life, he won't hesitate anyway and that's when the reckless behaviour comes into action.

That said, I've noticed that in the last seasons it has been a recurrent theme, and that kind of actions has become more frequent than before.

As per the new character and how it will happen, I think it will depend on who the character is and the reason for Dean to become that character. There are a lot of variables and possibilities on the table. The most characteristic for Dean would be, as you said, option a, but I'm not sure that right now he is at option c,  he's undoubtfully worn down but to that point? not sure. However the desperation of his reaction at the end of Funeralia might say that you're right there too.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, belbar said:

I agree with you in almost everything you say here. Up to the point where you mention that most of the time he wants to punish himself. I think that he feels responsible for everything and tries to make right what he thinks has made wrong or has gone bad because of him. Not necessarily punishing himself. Problem is that he doen't value himself and therefore if the price for making right whatever is his life, he won't hesitate anyway and that's when the reckless behaviour comes into action.

That said, I've noticed that in the last seasons it has been a recurrent theme, and that kind of actions has become more frequent than before.

As per the new character and how it will happen, I think it will depend on who the character is and the reason for Dean to become that character. There are a lot of variables and possibilities on the table. The most characteristic for Dean would be, as you said, option a, but I'm not sure that right now he is at option c,  he's undoubtfully worn down but to that point? not sure. However the desperation of his reaction at the end of Funeralia might say that you're right there too.

I agree with the bold - that's why I said most of the time, not all. I do think his leaving leaving Sam (I'm poison) and taking on the mark was heavily flavoured with a blend punishment and atonement, heavy on the self-flagellation (over Kevin's death and what they had to do to Sam to get Gadreel out, not for saving Sam in the first place - but that's another post ;). I think there is a textbook to be written when it comes to the psychology of Dean Winchester.

Also, I said a blend of a and c for whatever the remaining eps of S13 hold for him. I think 'a' is Dean's default state, but there is enough going on right now to edge him into 'c' territory, and Sam getting the ever-loving crap beat out of him is going to push him further. I don't think that's the last straw though, although I can't guess what the writers will pull out of their asses that might be right now.

[Pondlass1]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think there is a textbook to be written when it comes to the psychology of Dean Winchester.

Could be a whole University course. LOL