Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, SueB said:

ibelieveinthelittletreetopper 

Ahh thanks.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, SueB said:

But right now?  Not happening.  And so Dabb gave, IMO,  the right answer

Mark stated plainly and clearly that he and SPN have parted ways and he won't be  coming  back. There was no equivocation. Dabb is playing the same game as  Michaels, toying with the Crowley fans. IMO saying not anytime soon is still teasing a possible return whether he means it or not. Why can't he just say "There are no plans for Crowley's return." The end. Don't equivocate. Then I'll believe him.

[SueB]

He said there are "NO plans" at ANY juncture.  That's not the same way as saying "parted ways and won't be coming back" IMO.  Mark did NOT say he would never return.  He didn't burn a bridge.  He wouldn't let Michaels mislead anyone.  Timing is important and that was Michael's intent.  But Dabb made it clear there is nothing right now. Dabb went out of his way to praise Mark specifically, stand by his (Dabb's) decision to kill him off, and say that it's up in the air if he comes back.  Dabb, IMO, correctly recognizes that if timing/circumstances are right, there's a chance they would bring him back.  But it's not anytime soon. 

Actors don't get to be as seasoned as Mark Sheppard by burning bridges.  Young, full of themselves actors burn bridges.  Mark has had guest roles on 62 different shows (per IMdB).  Many of which had multiple appearances.  He knows how to get and keep a job.  And he's reinvented himself at least two or three times.  Now would NOT be a good time to ask him.  But in a year or two?  For a 'special' guest star episode?  It all depends on how Mark is doing and what they offer.  

[ILoveReading]

I guess I see No plans at any juncture and not coming back ever at the same thing.  Mark's tweets sounded pretty final, and it didn't sound like the parting was mutual, whether on both or one side, because of  Mark's tweets and the lack of exit interviews which usually follow. 

I know the standard answer is usually, never say never.  But I would lean more towards Crowley is never coming back, period.

Now, as a major Crowley fan I want to be wrong about this, but I don't expect to see Crowley again.  Unless he's he recast which would lower my opinion of Dabb even more.  (Which would be hard to do since its already about the level of a snake's belly). 

Edited August 23, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, SueB said:

He said there are "NO plans" at ANY juncture.  That's not the same way as saying "parted ways and won't be coming back" IMO.  Mark did NOT say he would never return.  He didn't burn a bridge.  He wouldn't let Michaels mislead anyone.  Timing is important and that was Michael's intent.  But Dabb made it clear there is nothing right now. Dabb went out of his way to praise Mark specifically, stand by his (Dabb's) decision to kill him off, and say that it's up in the air if he comes back.  Dabb, IMO, correctly recognizes that if timing/circumstances are right, there's a chance they would bring him back.  But it's not anytime soon. 

Actors don't get to be as seasoned as Mark Sheppard by burning bridges.  Young, full of themselves actors burn bridges.  Mark has had guest roles on 62 different shows (per IMdB).  Many of which had multiple appearances.  He knows how to get and keep a job.  And he's reinvented himself at least two or three times.  Now would NOT be a good time to ask him.  But in a year or two?  For a 'special' guest star episode?  It all depends on how Mark is doing and what they offer.  

IMO, this is a matter of interpretation. Those seem to be saying the same thing as MY interpretation. No plans at any juncture IMO = he has called it a day with SPN.  Sure things can change. Things can always change.  IMO, he doesn't have issues with the cast and crew. IMO he has issues with the showrunners. I don't see why he would come back when his character was treated pretty poorly and was subverted by Lucifer. Literally LOL. And they screwed him out of the line he wrote that was a great exit line. IMO, if he was open to a return even 2 years from now, he would have told his fans something different and he would have gone along with Michaels spin game.

Edited August 23, 2017 by catrox14
clarifying thoughts

[gonzosgirrl]

I'd say that Mark's response to Michaels, his displeasure over having his line cut (which he had already built a t-shirt campaign around), his break with Creation (beyond 2017) and the complete lack of any 'fond farewell' from TPTB at the time of the finale (totally classless on Dabb's part, IMO) speak pretty clearly to me. I will be more than astounded if Mark ever comes back to SPN.

[Casseiopeia]

This is a spoiler if this is Sam.  If it is Jared....a very cool ride.

 

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

This is a spoiler if this is Sam.  If it is Jared....a very cool ride.

 

Pretty sure that's Jared's ride.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

This is a spoiler if this is Sam.  If it is Jared....a very cool ride.

 

I'm sure Jared probably owns a nice car like  IRL, but I think that must be for the episode.  Jared and Jensen are driven to set AFAIK by Clif.

[gonzosgirrl]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm sure Jared probably owns a nice car like  IRL, but I think that must be for the episode.  Jared and Jensen are driven to set AFAIK by Clif.

I feel like I saw a fan vid showing them filming Sam driving this car into a parking space?

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I feel like I saw a fan vid showing them filming Sam driving this car into a parking space?

Maybe it's a spare from the BMOL

[DittyDotDot]

I think that very well could be Jared's car. While yes, they usually are driven to and from set by Clif, I do remember a few years back Jensen talking about borrowing Jared's car to go up to, I think, Whistler. I'm not a car person so I don't remember the specifics, but it sounded like it was fun to drive. So, I think Jared keeps a non-family car in Vancouver.

[gonzosgirrl]

It is Jared's car. And also, sorry for your loss, Jared. So hard to lose furbabies.

https://twitter.com/ConeyforPada/status/899897098379939840/video/1

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It is Jared's car. And also, sorry for your loss, Jared. So hard to lose furbabies.

https://twitter.com/ConeyforPada/status/899897098379939840/video/1

Ah . Thanks for the info!

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It is Jared's car. And also, sorry for your loss, Jared. So hard to lose furbabies.

https://twitter.com/ConeyforPada/status/899897098379939840/video/1

Poor Gen it was her little Cavalier King Charles Indie.  

[catrox14]

Quote

What’s happening with Hell now that Crowley’s dead on Supernatural? — Mara
It’s pretty much what you’d imagine. When one leader falls, another must step up. But the question is: Who will earn their spot in Hell’s throne? (Hint: It might be someone we’ve never met before.) “There is a power vacuum,” showrunner Andrew Dabb says of the situation in Hell. “Into that power vacuum will step a new player for us. Once Crowley is gone, demon-kind and some of our players — some we’ve met before and some that are new — start asking themselves: What is the future of Hell? People come with various different agendas.”

http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/24/spoiler-room-greys-anatomy-supernatural-flash/

 

 I thought Crowley's spell was supposed to result in the Gates of Hell being closed along with closing the Rift. Did I misunderstand that in the finale? Or did Crowley's plans change once he decided to off himself? I'm confused.

Edited August 24, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/24/spoiler-room-greys-anatomy-supernatural-flash/

 

 I thought Crowley's spell was supposed to result in the Gates of Hell being closed along with closing the Rift. Did I misunderstand that in the finale? Or did Crowley's plans change once he decided to off himself? I'm confused.

As I understood it, Crowley never intended to actually close the gates of hell since he knew the spell required a sacrifice from him. He just threw in the line about later helping them to close the gates as an incentive for the brothers to agree to work with him.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/24/spoiler-room-greys-anatomy-supernatural-flash/

 

 I thought Crowley's spell was supposed to result in the Gates of Hell being closed along with closing the Rift. Did I misunderstand that in the finale? Or did Crowley's plans change once he decided to off himself? I'm confused.

Crowley said he would close the Gates of Hell if they helped him get rid of Lucifer, but that was before any of them knew of the rift. I believe the spell Crowley was working when he died was only intended to close the rift.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Crowley said he would close the Gates of Hell if they helped him get rid of Lucifer, but that was before any of them knew of the rift. I believe the spell Crowley was working when he died was only intended to close the rift.

That was my understanding also.

I wonder if this will be Jack's role, eventually. Ruling over Hell, that is.

Edited August 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

As I understood it, Crowley never intended to actually close the gates of hell since he knew the spell required a sacrifice from him. He just threw in the line about later helping them to close the gates as an incentive for the brothers to agree to work with him.

I think DDD and Gonzosgrrl have it correct.

I didn't have the impression he wasn't sincere. I think he fully intended to close the gates of Hell Crowley was done with Hell and everything to do with Hell IMO.. He would have won if he put Lucifer back in the Cage and/or killed him and by closing the gates of Hell. Lucifer would never get out 

Thanks everyone for helping clarify things.

[Wayward Son]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think DDD and Gonzosgrrl have it correct.

I didn't have the impression he wasn't sincere. I think he fully intended to close the gates of Hell Crowley was done with Hell and everything to do with Hell IMO.. He would have won if he put Lucifer back in the Cage and/or killed him and by closing the gates of Hell. Lucifer would never get out 

Thanks everyone for helping clarify things.

Yeah, sorry I forgot they didn't know about the rift at this point :)

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Yeah, sorry I forgot they didn't know about the rift at this point :)

I was just confused whether Crowley knew about it or not and pacing was weird and wonky so it was confusing.

It would be something else if we found out Crowley knew about the Rift

I still want to know what freaking portal Hess was talking about with 'The Voice" in 12.22. A portal to where? Did they have the ability to time jump or something?

Edited August 24, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I still want to know what freaking portal Hess was talking about with 'The Voice" in 12.22. A portal to where? Did they have the ability to time jump or something?

I don't think she was speaking of anything specific, a portal to anywhere would've suited her just fine in that moment, IMO.

Maybe they've known how to open portals into Purgatory for decades? Or just a portal that jumps you five miles away--or even 50 feet?  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think she was speaking of anything specific, a portal to anywhere would've suited her just fine in that moment, IMO.

Maybe they've known how to open portals into Purgatory for decades? Or just a portal that jumps you five miles away--or even 50 feet?  

I just want to know why we didn't know they had portal access until that moment. And yes I want to know where it went LOL.

But I'll bet they never mention one word about it again, which will irk me LOL

[Casseiopeia]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was just confused whether Crowley knew about it or not and pacing was weird and wonky so it was confusing.

It would be something else if we found out Crowley knew about the Rift

I still want to know what freaking portal Hess was talking about with 'The Voice" in 12.22. A portal to where? Did they have the ability to time jump or something?

Maybe a rift?  The BMoL's learned how to open rifts to AU's?  I suppose we will never know because...well Sam shot the computer that severed all ties forever!!

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Maybe a rift?  The BMoL's learned how to open rifts to AU's?  I suppose we will never know because...well Sam shot the computer that severed all ties forever!!

LOL. I sure hope Sam scavenged the hard drives before they blew the rest up. If he didn't, well, we're gonna have to have a chat

[catrox14]

RE : Their comments on their characters.

J2 say this quite a lot now.  If they say they know them better than anyone, which I presume includes the showrunners and writers,  then I think they can't really get away with continuing to say "We don't write the show", when questions/concerns/praise comes their way at cons and during interviews.

 

 

 

 

 

[catrox14]

[gonzosgirrl]

I think it's no great risk to 'predict' that any season going forward could be the last, including S13. That said, they seem to bring up the end more and more, and there's less shouting down when an audience member dares to mention 'the end'. Much as I loath what Dabb has done to the show, I will be so sad when it's over.

I don't; have the tweet handy, but there was also an exchange between Jared and Jensen about Jared having had time off, with the response being obvious that Jensen hadn't.

[catrox14]

Sam Smith: 

Say what Sam Smith? Mary didn't DO the popular OR the right thing by her sons at all last season. 

[catrox14]

Okay if this is Sam Smith's head!canon or what she's being told is Mary's mind set, no wonder Mary was such a mess.

Yes I know these tweets may lack context but yeeshhhh

For a sister, Mary sure liked to throw out the Mom card to her convenience. 

 

 She didn't raise them to be hunters, but she kept hunting after Dean was born for a year. And she bailed on them as adults. Mary doesn't have a lot of room to talk here (and I Hate John) LOL

[catrox14]

Say what there, Samantha? Dean got his music from John. What bizarro world is Sam talking about here? Is this an AU version of Dean? Dean idolized John FFS, which included John's music, his car and his jacket. WHAT THE HECK?

 

What the crap kind of question is this?

 

[catrox14]

WUT? No one said Mary was supposed to be perfect. Dean and Sam never said that.  They just wanted her to be around them. Okay was I watching two different shows here? WTF

 

 

[gonzosgirrl]

Sigh. And then I read nonsense like this and the end doesn't seem like such a loss.

I sincerely hope if Mary is rescued from the AU, she goes off with the wayward pick-a-nouns and Dean & Sam get selective amnesia.

Edited August 27, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

Erm. No. Dean didn't know he could get out until Benny told him and even then his mission was to save Cas before leaving. He literally would not leave without Cas.  Cas was his mission

I kind of  feel sorry for Samantha because she clearly doesn't know Dean's backstory of Purgatory.

 

[bethy]

I can see Mary having been idealized when the boys were growing up by John and therefore being perceived by the boys as "perfect" when they were children to an extent. But I don't think that either adult Dean or Sam thought she was perfect, especially when she came back, or expected her to be. They knew her story, right, about making the deal? 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, bethy said:

I can see Mary having been idealized when the boys were growing up by John and therefore being perceived by the boys as "perfect" when they were children to an extent. But I don't think that either adult Dean or Sam thought she was perfect, especially when she came back, or expected her to be. They knew her story, right, about making the deal? 

 Dean knew about the deal. He was there when she made it or got there during the aftermath so he knew.  Sam figured it out later I'm pretty sure. My point though is that there was nothing in s12 with how they behaved with Mary that this notion of Mary having to be perfect was a factor. IMO, if Mary thought there was something the boys where doing that suggested she had to be perfect that was never IMO shown on screen.

So is she saying that her goal in the AU is to get out of the AU and she'll be a killing machine like Purgatory Dean?

[bethy]

Just now, catrox14 said:

My point though is that there was nothing in s12 with how they behaved with Mary that this notion of Mary having to be perfect was a factor. IMO, if Mary thought there was something the boys where doing that suggested she had to be perfect that was never IMO shown on screen.

I totally agree. I guess I was trying to say that I can see the genesis of the actress's thought about that, but that in terms of what was true in the show for the boys as adults (and what we saw on screen), it just wasn't there. I feel like the show had this whole backstory about Mary and the boys' reactions to her that, 1. weren't consistent with what we, the audience (but evidently not the actor or the showrunner?), know about the characters, and 2. that was not shown on screen. Like the inexplicable (to me) "Dean wants Mary to be his mommy" statements that we got from characters. I mean... what? And here the actress has this "Dean and Sam see Mary as perfect" backstory that doesn't make sense from a character standpoint or from what we were shown on screen. It's frustrating. 

[catrox14]

[catrox14]

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Say what there, Samantha? Dean got his music from John. What bizarro world is Sam talking about here? Is this an AU version of Dean? Dean idolized John FFS, which included John's music, his car and his jacket. WHAT THE HECK?

 

The only thing we heard about Mary's music before this year was that she loved Judy Collins' Someday Soon and her favorite Beatles song was Hey Jude, both about as far from classic rock as you can get.  I don't think wee!Dean got any other musical influence from her.  (Maybe she influenced John, who passed it on to Dean?)

I wish the writers would get their act together about who Mary is/was/is supposed to be, and check it against canon before they start filming.

[Pondlass1]

I guess we shouldn't expect actors to have seen every episode of a series they have appeared in sporadically. But Samantha is so way off base about her character it's obvious she had no clue every time she came to set during season 12. No wonder Mary was a frustrating mess. An actor has feel and be acquainted with their character.

Her answers to questions at this convention are disappointing. She is an actress portraying a character that's a total stranger to her.

I hope Mary goes off to spinoff heaven with the Waywards. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I guess we shouldn't expect actors to have seen every episode of a series they have appeared in sporadically. But Samantha is so way off base about her character it's obvious she had no clue every time she came to set during season 12. No wonder Mary was a frustrating mess. An actor has feel and be acquainted with their character.

Her  questions at this convention are disappointing. She is an actress portraying a character that's a total stranger to her.

I hope Mary goes off to spinoff heaven with the Waywards. 

I think she is answering based on whatever notes she's getting from Dabb et al. I think that is what she was told was happening with Mary. It's still disappointing be it her head!canons or whatever she's being told.

[bethy]

Wouldn't she have at least watched the show? I mean that's part of what I don't get about some of what she said. If she'd even just watched all the episodes Mary appeared in, I think she'd be in a better place with the character.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, bethy said:

Wouldn't she have at least watched the show? I mean that's part of what I don't get about some of what she said. If she'd even just watched all the episodes Mary appeared in, I think she'd be in a better place with the character.

You would think. I dunno, maybe she did and she had questions but was told, 'This is the direction we are going". I mean to me that's the only way it makes any sense is that they wanted this for Mary's SL.

[DittyDotDot]

15 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So is she saying that her goal in the AU is to get out of the AU and she'll be a killing machine like Purgatory Dean?

I'm guessing it's maybe both. Supposedly there are very few humans, so it will likely be a kill-or-be-killed kind of mentality and I wouldn't be surprised if she finds some purity in that like Dean did in Purgatory.

10 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I guess we shouldn't expect actors to have seen every episode of a series they have appeared in sporadically. But Samantha is so way off base about her character it's obvious she had no clue every time she came to set during season 12. No wonder Mary was a frustrating mess. An actor has feel and be acquainted with their character.

Her answers to questions at this convention are disappointing. She is an actress portraying a character that's a total stranger to her.

I hope Mary goes off to spinoff heaven with the Waywards. 

I get that who Mary turned out to be isn't what people wanted her to be, but I think Samantha's comments are very true to her character and what we saw on screen--except for maybe the music thing. Personally, I think Samantha is speaking to how Mary THOUGHT Sam and Dean saw her, that doesn't mean that's actually how Sam and Dean saw her though. A lot of what Sam and Dean knew of Mary was false and John had done a great job of making it seem like everything was perfect before Mary died, so I can see how Mary might get the idea that Sam and Dean would want her to be that idolized version of her. For me, this is one of the many reasons there was conflict between Mary and the boys all season; Mary thought they wanted her to be something she wasn't when in reality all they wanted was to get to know who she really was. So, I think Samantha's comments line up with exactly what we saw of Mary in S12. 

As to the music thing, almost everything we know of Mary's musical tastes before S12 was told to us from Dean's 4-year-old memories (Hey Jude) or from John telling them stories of her as a kid. Dean clearly took on John's music, but that doesn't mean that Mary didn't also have a love of classic rock--in fact, it could be one of the things that drew them to each other.

Edited August 28, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

Eh, I haven`t liked the actress comments about her character since she joined as a regular, that one interview during Season 12 was atrocious IMO. And it`s no wonder Mary is the way she is. I think it comes from both the actress and the writers, how Mary was supposedly victimized by her sons wanting her to be perfect. When in reality they just wanted her not to be a bitch. And that was apparently too much to ask.

Which is IMO the character lost a lot of popularity last Season and the writers were baffled by that. I`m guessing no writer ever wanted viewers to seriously ponder if she came back soulless. But it became a viable theory for a while.  Noone can convince me that was even remotely the goal.

I can only imagine that Purgatory 2.0 will be used to prop her even more as a supposed super-badass. Meanwhile I think the character needs to be taken down several pegs. And not in the faux, poor-man`s redemption the end of last Season tried, where they tried to paint her as a victim, have her not apologize for or even realize what her faults truly were, let alone attempt any damage control and be handed insta-forgiveness, right before another instance of "look, what a sacrifical badass". Statistical propabilities would determine they had to get at least something right, at least by dumb luck. But they`ve beaten the odds.    

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Meanwhile I think the character needs to be taken down several pegs. And not in the faux, poor-man`s redemption the end of last Season tried, where they tried to paint her as a victim, have her not apologize for or even realize what her faults truly were, let alone attempt any damage control and be handed insta-forgiveness, right before another instance of "look, what a sacrifical badass".

Taking this to the "Bitch versus Jerk" thread to be safe.

[catrox14]

So that's two Mondays in a row that Jensen has been filming. Jared might be as well, just haven't heard that. He could be in studio. Sounds like the not filming on Mondays thing has changed. 

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by catrox14

[Casseiopeia]