Spoilers With Speculation

[Bessie]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I found someone posting this on tumblr.

 

That certainly seems to imply Mark wasn't best pleased with how things ended for Crowley. 

This is uncomfortable. I don't like it. And it's really weird how no one talks about Crowley or Rowena. Not at the Rome Convention or in the media. Did no one ask a question about those two all convention. Really?

[catrox14]

I don't think this means anything. She asked if he was doing cons. Then she said please say yes. Mark replied, "no".

That could have been snarky Mark as he does at cons which is never give anyone a straight answer about anything. He may have been saying "No" to her begging him to say yes. That doesn't mean he's saying he is never doing a con again necessarily.

See, this is Mark's fault. He screws with fans in a loving way and now I personally don't know how to take his answers.

 

[Geordiegirl1967]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So between the screenshot and that maybe something bad did happen BTS.

Or he is just really p***ed off that Crowley has been killed off? Writers make decisions for story reasons all the time that are nothing personal and are no indication of any issues. Jim B wasn't very happy about Bobby's death, nor was Osric about Kevin, but in neither case was it a reflection on the actor. I just think no-one wants to be fired.

For the record, of the 3 major deaths in ep23 I think Crowley's is the most likely to be permanent.

[Bessie]

Do they screen questions at Cons? It's hard to believe that not one question was asked about Crowley or Rowena?  

[CluelessDrifter]

51 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Have they ever gotten rid of a character of Rowena's stature off camera like that before?  I can't think of anyone else who didn't at least get to be in the episode they were killed in.  I know they were crunched for time, but that really seems shitty to me. 

Nope.  Outside of Sam, Dean, Cas, and Crowley, only Bobby had more episodes than Rowena.  If you look at people who have been in 10 or more appearances and are now dead, Kevin, Metatron, Ruby 2.0, Ketch, and Ellen all got on-screen deaths.  Hell, even Roy got to come back and die on screen, but Rowena?  

Edited May 23, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, Bessie said:

This is uncomfortable. I don't like it. And it's really weird how no one talks about Crowley or Rowena. Not at the Rome Convention or in the media. Did no one ask a question about those two all convention. Really?

I'm surprised by that as well! I mean Crowley and Rowena are both rather popular characters with the fandom! I would have expected at least one question on them to be asked. 

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think this means anything. She asked if he was doing cons. Then she said please say yes. Mark replied, "no".

That could have been snarky Mark as he does at cons which is never give anyone a straight answer about anything. He may have been saying "No" to her begging him to say yes. That doesn't mean he's saying he is never doing a con again necessarily.

See, this is Mark's fault. He screws with fans in a loving way and now I personally don't know how to take his answers.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Or he is just really p***ed off that Crowley has been killed off? Writers make decisions for story reasons all the time that are nothing personal and are no indication of any issues. Jim B wasn't very happy about Bobby's death, nor was Osric about Kevin, but in neither case was it a reflection on the actor. I just think no-one wants to be fired.

For the record, of the 3 major deaths in ep23 I think Crowley's is the most likely to be permanent.

You guys are right could really be anything. It could be an issue with the writing as @Geordiegirl1967 says, or Mark doesn't mean a word of it as @catrox14. It could be that he was instructed to play the role of the "disgruntled former employee" to convince people he had indeed left. So we would be more surprised when he returned. 

Im thinking something similar to Jim Beavers tweets about "being disappointed he didn't get on the show this year", which of course ended up being a lie as he did appear haha

[gonzosgirrl]

I just don't see any way *not* to take his tweet/instagram as at least a little salty. He called it 'fitting' for S12 that he wrote up this line and 'surprise  surprise (meaning no surprise at all) that they cut it. Was it just Mark's usual trolling? Maybe.

But either the radio silence from TPTB is a way to keep us speculating  (since nobody is speculating over Misha's return) or a great big slap in the face to Mark.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm surprised by that as well! I mean Crowley and Rowena are both rather popular characters with the fandom! I would have expected at least one question on them to be asked. 

 

You guys are right could really be anything. It could be an issue with the writing as @Geordiegirl1967 says, or Mark doesn't mean a word of it as @catrox14. It could be that he was instructed to play the role of the "disgruntled former employee" to convince people he had indeed left. So we would be more surprised when he returned. 

Im thinking something similar to Jim Beavers tweets about "being disappointed he didn't get on the show this year", which of course ended up being a lie as he did appear haha

Spoilers for Arrow. This exact thing happened on Arrow with a certain character. The actor was being a complete asshole on Twitter, throwing shade at the show in myriad ways. And then said. "I'm so glad to be back and it was all played off as a big PR thing" and other actors admitted it was a ploy.

Edited May 24, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

25 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

That certainly seems to imply Mark wasn't best pleased with how things ended for Crowley. 

Or he's just trying not to say too much either way?

I really don't know. It could go either way. That's why I was waiting until I saw his reactions at the upcoming cons to judge. It's all in the intonation as to how his online responses have read. Just because he's not doing any cons next year doesn't really say anything to me other than he's not available to do them. I know he's busy with his music and has a new kid...so may factors and so little information.

I guess I've been following the show for so long that I'm just cautious of jumping to any conclusions as of yet.

ETA: what others said, didn't see there was another page.

Edited May 23, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Idahoforspn]

15 minutes ago, Bessie said:

This is uncomfortable. I don't like it. And it's really weird how no one talks about Crowley or Rowena. Not at the Rome Convention or in the media. Did no one ask a question about those two all convention. Really?

Everybody is to focused on Misha.

[catrox14]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Im thinking something similar to Jim Beavers tweets about "being disappointed he didn't get on the show this year", which of course ended up being a lie as he did appear haha

I called this is a bunch of BS the first time I saw that Tweet. There is no way an actor of Jim's stature and longevity in this show would take to Twitter and come off as pathetically begging to come back.

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, Bessie said:

This is uncomfortable. I don't like it. And it's really weird how no one talks about Crowley or Rowena. Not at the Rome Convention or in the media. Did no one ask a question about those two all convention. Really?

I wouldn't say Crowley or Rowena wasn't ever mentioned, but since Mark nor Ruth were there, I think people figured it would be pointless to ask anyone else about Crowley or Rowena's fate. That's why I say I'm waiting to see Mark's reaction at upcoming cons.

[MysteryGuest]

I never know whether Mark is serious or not with his tweets and his con answers.  But I find it almost ridiculous that they would kill 4 characters and bring them all back, or at least all but one.  Especially when they had killed Crowley just the week before.  Add in his bemoaning of his lot in life as the King of Hell and just how desperately he wanted to win against Lucifer, and it certainly sounds like someone who'd be willing to do what Crowley did.  

I'd really hate it if what was once a great job for him and a family atmosphere has now turned into something negative.  

[Idahoforspn]

36 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I'm worried about this. What if everyone is being so quiet not because it's only a temporary death, but because (behind the scenes) it wasn't an amicable separation? I'd hate to think something shitty went down.

And that's my suspicion unfortunately. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I never know whether Mark is serious or not with his tweets and his con answers.  But I find it almost ridiculous that they would kill 4 characters and bring them all back, or at least all but one.  Especially when they had killed Crowley just the week before.  Add in his bemoaning of his lot in life as the King of Hell and just how desperately he wanted to win against Lucifer, and it certainly sounds like someone who'd be willing to do what Crowley did.  

I'd really hate it if what was once a great job for him and a family atmosphere has now turned into something negative.  

Viral marketing at it's finest. Fans are going to talk all summer about who's dead, who's not, is Mark being a troll or serious?

Sadly, if any death sticks, it's Rowena IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

Whether he's coming back or not, I think it has to sting a little that there was comparatively so very little reaction to Crowley's death. I mean, I've seen "Crowley" trending on Twitter several times over the last couple years -- this time, nada. I just think he deserved better. If it's a ploy on the part of the showrunners, then it fell pretty flat, IMO.

@catrox14 if it is marketing, it's having the opposite effect on me. I know deaths on Supernatural are a running joke, but killing and bringing back three significant characters at once is too much, even for them. As it stands right now, I believe Mark is done and TPTB are douchebags in not acknowledging him.  ETA: should that turn out to be not true, it's not going to endear me to any of them.

Edited May 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Whether he's coming back or not, I think it has to sting a little that there was comparatively so very little reaction to Crowley's death. I mean, I've seen "Crowley" trending on Twitter several times over the last couple years -- this time, nada. I just think he deserved better. If it's a ploy on the part of the showrunners, then it fell pretty flat, IMO.

If you look at my remarks about Arrow, it may be a network thing, vs showrunners.

[Idahoforspn]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I wouldn't say Crowley or Rowena wasn't ever mentioned, but since Mark nor Ruth were there, I think people figured it would be pointless to ask anyone else about Crowley or Rowena's fate. That's why I say I'm waiting to see Mark's reaction at upcoming cons.

Jensen said he and Jared like working with Ruth but that's all he said.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Whether he's coming back or not, I think it has to sting a little that there was comparatively so very little reaction to Crowley's death.

I don't know, I think it just seems like everyone's focusing on Cass because Misha was at JIB and gave us something to talk about. I think there would be just as much chatter about Crowley if Mark had been there too. I think people just don't know whether to take it seriously right now and are waiting to see before reacting too much.

Edited May 24, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know, I think it just seems like everyone's focusing on Cass because Misha was at JIB and gave us something to talk about. I think there would be just as much chatter about Crowley if Mark had been there too. I think people just don't know whether to take it seriously right now and are waiting to see before reacting too much.

I'm talking about on social media.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

@catrox14 if it is marketing, it's having the opposite effect on me. I know deaths on Supernatural are a running joke, but killing and bringing back three significant characters at once is too much, even for them. As it stands right now, I believe Mark is done and TPTB are douchebags in not acknowledging him.

Edited 1 minute ago by gonzosgirrl.

Do you really think with the time on the show Mark has spent, his status with fans and his friendships with the cast that if Crowley was really truly dead, he would be persona non grata. It would be pretty unusual given everything that's ever been said about working on the show and how it's a big family and the reputation it has for being a great set, they would just ignore Mark and his contributions to the show and his friendship with the Cast and Crew. The silence about Mark is why I think he's  not gone.

ETA: My caveat is that if Mark asked to leave the show and was unhappy about his final exit, but even then it seems like the other cast would remark on it if they could.

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Do you really think with the time on the show Mark has spent, his status with fans and his friendships with the cast that if Crowley was really truly dead, he would be persona non grata. It would be pretty unusual given everything that's ever been said about working on the show and how it's a big family and the reputation it has for being a great set, they would just ignore Mark and his contributions to the show and his friendship with the Cast and Crew. The silence about Mark is why I think he's  not gone.

Mark may be the one that is pissed off. Also, Jensen, Jared, and Misha have always been closer. Mark always seemed to be odd man out IMO. No way do I think J2M would intentionally dis mark though.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Do you really think with the time on the show Mark has spent, his status with fans and his friendships with the cast that if Crowley was really truly dead, he would be persona non grata. It would be pretty unusual given everything that's ever been said about working on the show and how it's a big family and the reputation it has for being a great set, they would just ignore Mark and his contributions to the show and his friendship with the Cast and Crew. The silence about Mark is why I think he's  not gone.

It's the only thing that gives me any doubt at all. For Mark's sake I hope so.

But for the show's sake - they have to stop with this. How can we invest emotionally in any character's demise (or even the threat of it) if it never sticks. "How will they bring them back this time?" becomes the plot of a cartoon or a farce, not an action/drama.

[CluelessDrifter]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just don't see any way *not* to take his tweet/instagram as at least a little salty. He called it 'fitting' for S12 that he wrote up this line and 'surprise  surprise (meaning no surprise at all) that they cut it. Was it just Mark's usual trolling? Maybe.

But either the radio silence from TPTB is a way to keep us speculating  (since nobody is speculating over Misha's return) or a great big slap in the face to Mark.

I know in Misha's panel, he said that he knew about 7 weeks before they finished shooting that Cas was going to be killed, and then he said he didn't know until much more recently that he would be coming back in season 13.  Maybe the same thing happened with Mark, but he hasn't been told he'll be coming back.  I think because of the way his death was written, Crowley is dead.  I don't think Mark can come back as a regular.  Maybe the occasional guest spot, like Jim Beaver gets now that there's an AU.  

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Do you really think with the time on the show Mark has spent, his status with fans and his friendships with the cast that if Crowley was really truly dead, he would be persona non grata. It would be pretty unusual given everything that's ever been said about working on the show and how it's a big family and the reputation it has for being a great set, they would just ignore Mark and his contributions to the show and his friendship with the Cast and Crew. The silence about Mark is why I think he's  not gone.

Initially I thought the silence about all of them was because they knew that not all were dead permanently, and they didn't want the fans to know who was truly dead and who would return.  Then the next day at Jibcon, Jared made a slip of the tongue (supposedly), and Misha sent out a tweet saying Cas lives.  I don't know whether Misha just caved to the clamor of his online fans or what, but I wonder if he got in trouble for it?  The fact that Jensen tried rather pathetically to cover for Jared's slip makes me believe they weren't supposed to say anything.  But now that the news is out, and people know that Cas is back in some form or another, I don't know what to think about Crowley.  Killing both Cas and Crowley and bringing them both back would be absurd, IMO.  They already gave us the fake out Crowley death, would they really do it again the next week?  

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

It's the only thing that gives me any doubt at all. For Mark's sake I hope so.

But for the show's sake - they have to stop with this. How can we invest emotionally in any character's demise (or even the threat of it) if it never sticks. "How will they bring them back this time?" becomes the plot of a cartoon or a farce, not an action/drama.

But this show has always done the "How can we bring them back game". I think this time the difference is that it was so many characters in such a short amount of time. Some will be really most sincerely dead and others only mostly dead.

Maybe Dabb is bowing to some network notes.

1 minute ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I know in Misha's panel, he said that he knew about 7 weeks before they finished shooting that Cas was going to be killed, and then he said he didn't know until much more recently that he would be coming back in season 13.  Maybe the same thing happened with Mark, but he hasn't been told he'll be coming back.  I think because of the way his death was written, Crowley is dead.  I don't think Mark can come back as a regular.  Maybe the occasional guest spot, like Jim Beaver gets now that there's an AU.  

I watched Misha's panel and I don't remember him say anything like that. I guess I'll have to watch it again.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 They already gave us the fake out Crowley death, would they really do it again the next week?  

It will be 5 months before we see Crowley again. Not all fans are as obsessive as some of us here are. Like my best friend, she watches the show but she has zero emotional investment in the characters. She certainly doesn't rant like I do and she makes fun of me because I rant about it.  She watches to be entertained. Yes that's anectdotal but I don't think it's particularly uncommon either. I think a lot of fans just will wait to see what happens and even then maybe they won't care. LOL

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's the only thing that gives me any doubt at all. For Mark's sake I hope so.

But for the show's sake - they have to stop with this. How can we invest emotionally in any character's demise (or even the threat of it) if it never sticks. "How will they bring them back this time?" becomes the plot of a cartoon or a farce, not an action/drama.

Little bit of a tangent, but this is exactly why I got fed up with The Flash. They kill their characters only to bring back the actors as another character or reset the timeline so those characters don't have the same history and aren't the same. Last season I just started to feel like it was pointless to invest in any of their characters. And then I decided it was pointless to even watch the show if I wasn't going to invest in the characters.

I'm not particularly pleased with this alternative reality Supernatural went for, but I'm trying to stay optimistic that they won't take away our characters just to replace them with a stranger. I'm really trying.

However, I agree with you, the show should stop this. Except I don't think they will. This is probably the most talked about finale since Dean was turned into a demon. The show likes it when people talk about the show.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, I agree with you, the show should stop this. Except I don't think they will. This is probably the most talked about finale since Dean was turned into a demon. The show likes it when people talk about the show.

I suppose, in the "any publicity is good publicity" category, but most people aren't happy with what they did.  I think if they had killed off Crowley only, fans would have responded loudly.  He was a pretty popular character.  But unfortunately for Mark, Castiel is an even more popular character, so his death completely overshadowed Crowley's.  Fans are thrilled that Cas will be back, even if they're apprehensive as to just how that might work, but it does seem as though Cas' death has taken the limelight away from everyone else.  Maybe that was by design, or maybe just happenstance, and while that might be good for the show runners, it does suck for Mark and Ruth.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Little bit of a tangent, but this is exactly why I got fed up with The Flash. They kill their characters only to bring back the actors as another character or reset the timeline so those characters don't have the same history and aren't the same. Last season I just started to feel like it was pointless to invest in any of their characters. And then I decided it was pointless to even watch the show if I wasn't going to invest in the characters.

I'm not particularly pleased with this alternative reality Supernatural went for, but I'm trying to stay optimistic that they won't take away our characters just to replace them with a stranger. I'm really trying.

However, I agree with you, the show should stop this. Except I don't think they will. This is probably the most talked about finale since Dean was turned into a demon. The show likes it when people talk about the show.

I have just never subscribed to the idea that any publicity is good publicity, just spell my name right. I have a really high tolerance for things I love (I still watch Grey's very week *g*) but even for me there's a limit to how much disregard for the viewer I can take. I loved Castle, and I love Nathan Fillion, but I felt so abused when

Spoiler

they had Kate 'leave' Castle on some contrived bullshit after finally getting them married

that I quit. So yeah, I like drama - but there has to be stakes, and you can't abuse my emotions forever with fake outs. ETA: I'm already thisclose to being done over what, IMO, amounts to the character assassination of Dean in the Dabb era (12x22 notwithstanding). This is just one more (potential) brick in the wall.

Edited May 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

I don't know if something BAD happened but he's clearly NOT doing SPN Cons in 2018 and he was terse about it.

Now Mark was on the convention circuit with Alana Huffman BEFORE he was a regular on SPN. It's possible that as a regular, Creation Entertainment paid him more.  But if Mark is not a regular in S13, Creation may have offered a lesser deal.  Creation contracts are calendar year to calendar year. You can tell this because 1) they have an annual "wrap-up" and 'come see us' set of videos done by the boys, coincident with the calendar year and 2) they change themes every year.

It frankly surprises me that they weren't already locked for 2018. It's clear J2 are (they are listed on the page).  I'll ask Amy (Sweet on Dean) if she knows if Mark was on the docket for Las Vegas 2018 for the re-up or if they don't specify.  I also know Creation CHANGED it's page.

Now, a personal story, if he feels Creation screwed him over (like he WAS getting X dollars and now only Y dollars per convention) then it's within his personality to just move on.  There was a wee incident at the DCCon where I witnessed him being irritated with a zealous staff member attempting to rush him. So, IF his contractual relationship with them was pre-negotiated depending on his status as regular or not, then he may feel slighted if they decided to drop him from being a regular in S13 (since he had previously indicated he had a two year contract).  

I'm not sure.

What I AM becoming more certain of, is that it doesn't look like he's going to have a quick resurrection, if any.   

ETA: To clarify, he may be absolutely 'cool' with the show making these choices -- it's part of TV and he is a TV veteran. What he may not be cool about is his convention work and the associated impact.  Regardless, this HAS to be discussed at Phoenix Con.  I don't see how it can be ignored.  But Mark has trolled SO MUCH in the past, I don't know if fans will believe him, even if it's true.  And that concerns me a wee bit.  

Edited May 24, 2017 by SueB

[rue721]

15 minutes ago, SueB said:

Now, a personal story, if he feels Creation screwed him over (like he WAS getting X dollars and now only Y dollars per convention) then it's within his personality to just move on.

OK, gotcha. Thanks.

If he's genuinely feeling slighted, maybe he was also like, "fuck that" and decided to focus on bookings for his band, instead of doing cons anymore?

My instinct is that someone who just lost his job is pretty unlikely to turn down work, especially in a way that burns the bridge. But I don't know anything about Mark's personality, so...? It's certainly possible he's the "you can't fire me, I quit!" type.

I hope that things didn't go down poorly behind the scenes. That's just upsetting. But *fffffwoooop* *CLICK* turning off my imagination and not coming up with any more wild scenarios that probably have zero basis in reality.

Anyway, honestly, I think that they gave Crowley a nobler and more showstopping send-off that any demon character could reasonably hope to get! But at the same time, I do think they've set things up for him to come back. They dropped some breadcrumbs IMO. So I dunno, I actually am leaning to seeing him again. But maybe that's just wishful thinking ;)

Edited May 24, 2017 by rue721

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

OK, gotcha. Thanks.

If he's genuinely feeling slighted, maybe he was also like, "fuck that" and decided to focus on bookings for his band, instead of doing cons anymore?

My instinct is that someone who just lost his job is pretty unlikely to turn down work, especially in a way that burns the bridge. But I don't know anything about Mark's personality, so...? It's certainly possible he's the "you can't fire me, I quit!" type lol.

I hope that things didn't go down poorly behind the scenes. That's just upsetting. But *fffffwoooop* *CLICK* turning off my imagination and not coming up with any more wild scenarios that probably have zero basis in reality lol.

Anyway, honestly, I think that they gave Crowley a nobler and more showstopping send-off that any demon character could reasonably hope to get! But at the same time, I do think they've set things up for him to come back. They dropped some breadcrumbs IMO. So I dunno, I actually am leaning to seeing him again. But maybe that's just wishful thinking ;)

I thought Meg got a good death when she fought Crowley and died to save Cas and the boys.

[SueB]

11 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I thought Meg got a good death when she fought Crowley and died to save Cas and the boys.

I was JUST about to say that.  Funny... Meg and Crowley having something in common.  I think it's because both eventually became allies of Team Winchester.

[gonzosgirrl]

:'{

[Demented Daisy]

More anecdotal evidence about Mark Sheppard:

While talking to my sister about the finale, she made a comment that Mark had mentioned at a few cons over the past few years (she regularly goes to the Nashville cons and has been to the Dallas a couple of times) that he would like to go back to Dr. Who.  *shrug*  

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

:'{

Well, shit. I stand corrected.  Damn. :(.

Good luck, Mark. We shall miss you.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well, shit. I stand corrected.  Damn. :(.

Good luck, Mark. We shall miss you.

I hope that TPTB will show some class now.

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I hope that TPTB will show some class now.

Maybe it was agreed that Mark would make the announcement on Twitter and now all the other cast and crew will send their regards?

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe it was agreed that Mark would make the announcement on Twitter and now all the other cast and crew will send their regards?

I hope!

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Maybe it was agreed that Mark would make the announcement on Twitter and now all the other cast and crew will send their regards?

I hope so. As you said earlier, everything we've ever heard and seen about the SPN family tells me they will.

[DittyDotDot]

27 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

:'{

That sounds a lot less vague. I can buy him being gone now.

26 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

More anecdotal evidence about Mark Sheppard:

While talking to my sister about the finale, she made a comment that Mark had mentioned at a few cons over the past few years (she regularly goes to the Nashville cons and has been to the Dallas a couple of times) that he would like to go back to Dr. Who.  *shrug*  

He was only in couple episodes of Doctor Who, but I know he's a huge fan, so that makes sense.

[gonzosgirrl]

So who is going to be running Hell now? I don't think I can take it if it's Lucifer/Mark P. He just doesn't have Mark S/Crowley's charm.

Will there be uncontrolled demons running amok?

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So who is going to be running Hell now? I don't think I can take it if it's Lucifer/Mark P. He just doesn't have Mark S/Crowley's charm.

Will there be uncontrolled demons running amok?

I figure Mark P is intended to be Crowley's replacement. Given a choice, I prefer Sheppard. And yes Dabb, fake out killing Cas when you were really killing Crowley was a jerk move. And I suspect Ruth is gone too. 

[DittyDotDot]

On 5/23/2017 at 10:01 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

So who is going to be running Hell now? I don't think I can take it if it's Lucifer/Mark P. He just doesn't have Mark S/Crowley's charm.

Will there be uncontrolled demons running amok?

I hope the demons start running amok. That sounds way more fun than trying to put someone else in Crowley's place.

Personally, I don't see Lucifer as a Crowley replacement. They have very different roles. While Lucifer is God to the demons, he couldn't give two fucks about Hell or running it. Crowley took pride in maintaining a certain order and status quo.

Edited May 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So who is going to be running Hell now? I don't think I can take it if it's Lucifer/Mark P. He just doesn't have Mark S/Crowley's charm.

Will there be uncontrolled demons running amok?

 

Well, if Crowley's spell was successful the gate of Hell are closed...so....will it matter?

This reminds me, Crowley closing the Gates of Hell sure makes Dean being killed and turned into a demon because he took on the Mark to make up for Kevin's murder at the hands of the angel that Dean allowed to possess Sam because Sam was dying from the trials that would close the Gates of Hell via Sam curing Crowley...sure seems like a completely pointless exercise when apparently Crowley knew how to do it all along???

Or am I missing something here?

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I hope the demons start running amok. That sounds way more fun than trying to put someone else in Crowley's place.

Personally, I don't see Lucifer as a Crowley replacement. They have very different roles. While Lucifer is God to the demons, he could give two fucks about Hell or running it. Crowley took pride in maintaining a certain order and status quo.

This is something that did not make much sense to me.  Crowley made hell into the orderly place that it was and suddenly this season he really never wanted to do it that way? I. DO NOT GET IT.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Well, if Crowley's spell was successful the gate of Hell are closed...so....will it matter?

This reminds me, Crowley closing the Gates of Hell sure makes Dean being killed and turned into a demon because he took on the Mark to make up for Kevin's murder at the hands of the angel that Dean allowed to possess Sam because Sam was dying from the trials that would close the Gates of Hell via Sam curing Crowley...sure seems like a completely pointless exercise when apparently Crowley knew how to do it all along???

Or am I missing something here?

I don't think the spell was meant to close the Gates of Hell, was it? He said it was twofold, closing the rift and locking Lucifer in. I thought Crowley said he'd close the gates after, if/when they were successful in locking up Luci.

 

Watching again, he says: We do this ritual, we seal that rift, and we lock the devil in this godforsaken place. That's the plan, remember? Two birds, one stone.

Edited May 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think the spell was meant to close the Gates of Hell, was it? He said it was twofold, closing the rift and locking Lucifer in. I thought Crowley said he'd close the gates after, if/when they were successful in locking up Luci.

That's what I understood too.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I figure Mark P is intended to be Crowley's replacement. Given a choice, I prefer Sheppard. And yes Dabb, fake out killing Cas when you were really killing Crowley was a jerk move. And I suspect Ruth is gone too. 

I dislike Mark P immensely and am not interested in him being on the show as a regular over Sheppard. At all. He used to be scary and intimidating in s5 and now Lucifer is basically a buffoon. The red eyes did nothing to make Lucifer scary IMO. YMMV.

And I'm off to the bitterness thread.

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think the spell was meant to close the Gates of Hell, was it? He said it was twofold, closing the rift and locking Lucifer in. I thought Crowley said he'd close the gates after, if/when they were successful in locking up Luci.

Ohhhh. Okay. I did get all that wrong. Meh, I'm leaving my rant. LOL

Edited May 24, 2017 by catrox14

[The Morning Star]

Well as a Pellegrino and Lucifer fan, I see a lot of reason as to why some people here seem to not like him here.

I'd like to present why I do.

I think what makes Lucifer great in my opinion is the fact that excuse my language, he doesn't give a @&$&, he has immerse power and is nearly invincible.

 

He may behave like  a "Joker" but man, he is terrifying as a villain because of all of above, he doesn't look scary and doesn't sound scary but behavior and action wise, he is a terrifying character, one of the few who the brothers simply can't beat without a heavy sacrifice.

 

What other TV show has a villain as effective and terrifying as that?

 

Him vs the witch and Crowley and Lucifer definitely wins in effectiveness and usefulness as a character. Something that Rowena never really had and Crowley had lacked after season 6 (plus a brief half episode in S8 where he was killing everyone the brothers had saved).