Spoilers With Speculation

[SueB]

New News:

EP 3 Soul Survivor pictures up at K-site.  WARNING FOR CATROX: Jensen arms...open at own risk

 

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-10-3-spoilers-soul-survivor-jensen-ackles-directs/41462

 

Look at #9.  The bottle opening looks too big, but it kinda reminds me of that container used to hold grace.  I think it's too early to wrap up that storyline but ... got me thinking.

[7kstar]

Love how they show Misha laying on a blanket to protect the suit he is wearing, lol.

 

Also other warning...White t-shirt...not saying anything more...other than I want more.

 

So Crowley will be important to saving Cas?   I just hope it leads somewhere...why does "Somewhere over the Rainbow"  pop into my mind just now?  Enter Charlie.

[catrox14]

Mother of gods....Director!Jensen in a white t-shirt......and jeans...and a ballcap....and arms...

 

help.me.

[7kstar]

I'm afraid Jensen's looks, will distract me from the show, of course a repeat watching should be interesting but if this season gave us nothing else,  I do like the fact that he has to work out a bit.  It does look good on him.

 

Shame Dean doesn't get to wear a white -t shirt, ball-cap and jeans in a ep...just saying.  ;)

[SueB]

Carver interview.  If you don't like him, IMO this will not improve your perspective on him. 

http://tvline.com/2014/10/06/supernatural-season-10-spoilers-demon-dean-castiel-big-bad/

 

I, OTOH, eat this up with a spoon.  I like the personal journey.  I'm really glad he was asked about the Dean/Cas bond.  Also, it seems to me Crowley will be forced to do good things, much to his dismay. 

[mertensia]

You know just once I'd like to see the torture be original. Make them listen to Kidz bop albums or something instead of the same old same*. Anyhow I can't hate Carver after that Fan Look Behind the scenes extra on the season 9 blu-rays.

*DemonDean would definitely find this true warped evil. Evil.

[oliverwendell]

 

I, OTOH, eat this up with a spoon.  I like the personal journey.  I'm really glad he was asked about the Dean/Cas bond.  Also, it seems to me Crowley will be forced to do good things, much to his dismay.

 

Agree with all this.  Although I think Crowley won't be "forced" to do good things; I think he'll find himself wanting to do good things because of the dollop of humanity he's acquired, and that this will cause him to have a demonic existential crisis:  "Am I a really a demon?  What is a demon anyway?  Is there really any point to being a demon?  I don't want to go to college and get stuck in a desk job forever!"*

 

I hope that Carver's plan for Dean's personal journey is for Dean to actually discover his worth as a good person who always does the best he can, but his allusion to Dean's many moral failings doesn't inspire much hope there.  As for Sam, I imagine the plan is for him to finally (again?) realize that his destiny is to be a hunter and that Dean is as important to him as he is to Dean.

 

 

*  Okay, that last part might be my daughter talking.  

[catrox14]

Just FYI, the BTS fan video was written by Misha and ad libbed otherwise. Carver gets no points from me on that one other taking part and being funny.

I really should stop reading Carvers interviews. I dunno. I

don't think I'm on board with the idea that the boys have always been shitty people at heart. What bugs me is how much emphasis is on Crowley's state of mind. I DO NOT CARE. That fucker turned Dean into a demon. I know Sheppard is great but fuck Crowley sideways. I care what being a demon means to and for Dean. I do not care about the bad things Sam is willing to do to save Dean especially if it's damage to demons.

If Carver thinks Dean going to strip clubs, having consensual casual sex and torturing demons and angels is what makes him bad, well he can fuck off. I will never judge Dean for being that guy.

[Aeryn13]

 

Carver interview.  If you don't like him, IMO this will not improve your perspective on him.

 

Well, I found him to be just as nonsensical as always. But at least he is honest in admitting that they have no plot and no ideas for the Season, just soap opera naval gazing. Dean had that for years as a "storyline". It`s just that now everyone seems to join him. I`d rather they had it switched but if the others are at least in the dirt of unimportance with him, it`s better than nothing.

 

As for Crowley`s personal journey, I too, don`t give a crap. Mark Sheppard does a great job and Crowley can bring a snarky sense of humour but he is no better than Azazel , Alistair, Lilith etc. They all bought it, he deserves no less.

 

Castiel having a side story that has once again do nothing with the Winchesters? Yup, that worked really well in the past. I love the angels upon introduction and held on to that love longer than I think a lot of viewers have but even I have reached the stage of supreme boredom with them now.

 

 

I hope that Carver's plan for Dean's personal journey is for Dean to actually discover his worth as a good person who always does the best he can, but his allusion to Dean's many moral failings doesn't inspire much hope there.

 

I`m not quite sure what the plan is here. Dean already sincerely believed that he was 90 % crap pre-demonization. It`s not like an epiphany a la "yeah, I`m really that terrible a person" would be all that novel. Well, he could consider himself lower than dirt, like Sam told him he was in the Purge. I don`t think he was quite there yet.

 

As for Sam, the writers obviously don`t see the character having much in the way of flaws. I think they view him more like a small child which kinda can do no wrong - even if it does, it`s usually the fault of the parent or someone in charge - and where you don`t speak ill of them because it would make you an ass. Little Sammy. Therefore, I doubt they would ever adress what I see as the biggest and most off-putting character flow and let him grow from there.

 

What Demon!Dean calls him on will IMO be nothing else than the "monster" line (and he will wibble about it in innocent torment whereas Dean will later apologize because seriously, you are not mean to a toddler, yo). What Demon!Dean should be calling him on was "I thought you hated my approach to brotherhood so much, how come you are doing the same thing now? This concludes the "looking down on me" portion of our life btw. For infinity".

whereas what Demon 

[shang yiet]

I did not see anything in the article that implied Carver thought Sam was perfect. Just the opposite really what with his being a bigger monster than his demon brother who won't do anything bad really, I've had enough of Dean's navel gazing so not looking forward to more of the same old self worth issues.

[7kstar]

Watching the preview last night and reading this article, I really think Carver should never open his mouth.  I think he is terrible with telling his ideas. 

 

At least I enjoyed listening to Krikpe and he gets excited about it, but Carver is too emotionless and should just let others do the sharing and interviews. 

 

What happens and what he says will happen never seems to match up, so I'll not get upset yet.  I'll wait to see what happens tonight.

[catrox14]

Supernatural 10x02 Extended Promo - Reichenbach:

WELL. and now we see just how terrible Dean really is.

I'm confused because I thought Dean and Sam don't see each other until 10. 03

Edited October 8, 2014 by catrox14

[kimrey]

I thought that, too.  But I have a feeling the stuff between Sam and Dean in this promo happens right at the end of this episode and then leads into episode 3.  Dean is wearing the same thing he was wearing in the clip for that episode.  How it all plays out with getting back to the bunker, Dean getting tied up and then getting loose, etc.  I have no idea.

[SueB]

 

I thought that, too.  But I have a feeling the stuff between Sam and Dean in this promo happens right at the end of this episode and then leads into episode 3.  Dean is wearing the same thing he was wearing in the clip for that episode.  How it all plays out with getting back to the bunker, Dean getting tied up and then getting loose, etc.  I have no idea.

I think you're right about the end.

 

And I think Dean WANTS to be bad... and is falling short. Sam's right -- he could have killed that bouncer and didn't.  I think he's pushing Sam away too.  Now there is a definite level of something operating because he abandoned Sam to Cole at the end of Black.  So the signals are mixed. But I think that may be part of the issue.  I think Dean is not just seeing live through the bottom of a bottle but he's also seriously having an existential crisis.  Also, I rechecked the Closed Captioning. 

 

Crowley: "The Mark needs to be sated, otherwise...

Dean: "otherwise I turn into a demon. Yeah yeah. I sorta got that six weeks ago"

 

And I'm thinking...well that's odd. You ARE a demon.  So, does Dean become a pure demon?  One without control or something?  "Midwifing you back to life" COULD be as simple as the last scene in Season 9.  But I watched the...intimacy... of that conversation where Crowley says all this.  I think we've got more going on here than Black showed us. Now add in the flashback and Dean beating someone against a car in his current state.  Seems innocuous enough given his current state. But what if part of the "midwifing" has been Crowley helping Dean to literally control his inner demon.  To keep him clear-headed enough that he doesn't become completely savage?  Just spitballin' here.

Edited October 8, 2014 by SueB

[Julia]

Crowley said something last season about how being human made him less able to be ruthless (so did Castiel, come to think of it). I wonder if maybe his soft spot for humans (and specifically for Dean) is making it hard for him to let the mark take over if he can keep a little free will for Dean by getting him to accept being a demon on his own.

[SueB]

 

Crowley said something last season about how being human made him less able to be ruthless (so did Castiel, come to think of it). I wonder if maybe his soft spot for humans (and specifically for Dean) is making it hard for him to let the mark take over if he can keep a little free will for Dean by getting him to accept being a demon on his own.

Good point.  Plus pragmatically, he needs to be able to reason with Dean.  Otherwise Dean could just turn on him and Hell would be frankly in chaos as Dean is not interested in ruling it.

 

I wrote up the "what's wrong with Sammy" theory in the Black episode thread.  I think we are going to have dualing flashbacks again this season and Black just dropped hint-bombs but not the whole story. 

 

ETA:

And EW  JUST came out with a Carver interview that confirms my theory (IMO):

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/10/07/supernatural-season-10-premiere-post-mortem-jeremy-carver/

Edited October 8, 2014 by SueB

[JennB]

There was some speculation somewhere else that Sam may have gone to great lengths to get Dean back...lengths like opening the cage. So maybe in the process, he had a run-in with a demon that overpowered him.

 

Back to Claire: There was also speculation elsewhere that she might have to do with Castiel's grace. After Gadreel left Sam, some of his grace was left behind. Cas briefly possessed Claire, so it stands to reason that some of his grace is in her.

Edited October 8, 2014 by JennB

[mizkat]

I don't mind character driven stories or a bit of navel gazing but it has to be interesting. That's what they've failed to do for so long IMO, so when they do have scenes of great character import (aka sitting on the hood of the car sharing their feelings) it grind the episode to a halt. There have been a couple of exceptions, but overall it slows the pace down a lot. 

 

And yeah, Carver is nonsensical. At first I thought it was me not understanding the "complicated emotional journeys." Now I see there's little to understand. He needs to clear up the Mark of Cain business--he's saying Dean's a demon, but the dialogue last night said Dean would become a demon. Which is it? 

[catrox14]

Dean is a demon. IMO This is just more of Crowley's manipulations and half-truths.

IF there is any of our Dean still scratching around in there, he would rather be dead!Dean than demon!Dean. IMO if Dean knew he was a demon he might just off himself.

If the Mark is an addiction to killing then Crowley needs to keep feeding his addict these occasional kills to keep him wanting to kill which supposedly keeps him alive and not a demon. And as far as Dean knows, it's true because he was yakking out his guts in s9 finale and preferred death. Crowley can't /won't tell Dean because he needs to keep Dean right on that edge to have his bromance fantasy and his Blunt Instrument to rule Hell.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Castiel having a side story that has once again do nothing with the Winchesters? Yup, that worked really well in the past.

 

Yeah, the separation bugs me. I love Cas but I don't give a fuck about the other angels, so if he's separated from the Winchesters, it's just...ugh.

 

 

There was also speculation elsewhere that she might have to do with Castiel's grace. After Gadreel left Sam, some of his grace was left behind. Cas briefly possessed Claire, so it stands to reason that some of his grace is in her.

 

Yeah, I really like this speculation (as long as it doesn't result in her dying). I'm just hoping that Dean gets the demon out of him, Cas is pulled back into the fold, the boys focus on saving Cas, Sam remembers his Gadreel experience and so they look up Claire, and then we get the boys pleading for Cas' life.

 

I'm just sick and tired of Cas off on his own adventures. I love the boys TOGETHER. It's annoying enough to not have Cas in the ep (for me); to have an ep where he's finally included, but not with the boys just works my last fucking nerve.

[Hana Chan]

Dean is a demon. IMO This is just more of Crowley's manipulations and half-truths.

IF there is any of our Dean still scratching around in there, he would rather be dead!Dean than demon!Dean. IMO if Dean knew he was a demon he might just off himself.

If the Mark is an addiction to killing then Crowley needs to keep feeding his addict these occasional kills to keep him wanting to kill which supposedly keeps him alive and not a demon. And as far as Dean knows, it's true because he was yakking out his guts in s9 finale and preferred death. Crowley can't /won't tell Dean because he needs to keep Dean right on that edge to have his bromance fantasy and his Blunt Instrument to rule Hell.

 

Just what I was thinking. I think that it would be a mistake to look at Crowley/Dean as some kind of great new partnership and see it for what it really is. Dean is, and has been for quite some time, an amusing tool for Crowley to use for his own ends. Whatever "affection" that Crowley is capable of feeling is trumped by the fact that right now, Dean is useful to him and he's using the methods he has on hand to keep Dean under his control and separate from the one person who could pull the plug on Crowley's plans. Does this remind anyone of season four and the Sam/Ruby dynamic? And it's likely to end just as well for Dean as that ended for Sam.

 

I am curious to see just how far Sam is willing to do to try to save his brother. Given that they have been willing to kill, die and face eternal damnation for one another, I don't see Sam having much in the way of limits. It would be interesting if he resorted to using demon blood again to regain his powers and fight fire with fire, so to speak. It would be interesting to see the King of Hell having to face off against the Boy King.

[Aeryn13]

 

IF there is any of our Dean still scratching around in there, he would rather be dead!Dean than demon!Dean. IMO if Dean knew he was a demon he might just off himself.

 

While, if we were talking about regular Dean, I would agree - he pretty much DID want to die rather than be changed into anything in the Season 9 Finale - but I believe it`s more complicated than that. At this point, I think ALL of his soul has been twisted. That`s what the black eyes symbolize, it`s not a regular human soul inside him anymore. And that informs his actions now.

 

But parts of the old Dean still shine through here and there, Even though they, too, are twisted. So, there is no autonomous voice (no matter how small) inside him capable of going "I`d rather be dead than a demon", but there are still echoes of the Dean of yesteryore.

 

Like, seeing Ann Marie in trouble, it distracted him enough to go outside and check. And while his need for violence took over once he started beating on the guy, Dean`s impulse for seeking him out was because Ann Marie`s predicament bothered him. Otherwise, he would have played foosball and not have known the guy from Adam.

 

I`m glad that it looks like Dean`s more questionable behaviour as a demon comes because the MOC`s influence grows bigger. Turning him into a demon didn`t make him pawing at strippers, apparently, it needs the added fuel of the Mark for a few months. And he`ll still keep himself enough in check from killing that bouncer.

 

Now for a regular human, that would be low standards to keep but for not only a demon but a demon carrying the Mark of Cain which made Cain - who looked to be not weak-willed in the least - torture and slaughter humans for several thousand years and create a special order of Hell doing so, it actually shows exceptional restraint. To me, it shows that deep down Dean is a good person that you actually need to put some serious supernatural effort into twisting so much.

[SueB]

I'll have to disagree regarding Dean/Crowley. I think there's a real emotional intimacy that is genuine. I think Dean needed him at the start of his demoness and Crowley needs Dean.

[catrox14]

I'll have to disagree regarding Dean/Crowley. I think there's a real emotional intimacy that is genuine. I think Dean needed him at the start of his demoness and Crowley needs Dean.

on Crowley' part maybe. But not on Dean's. I think Dean is tolerating Crowley at this point. Any attachment Dean has is based on his need for the blade and that Crowley was controlling Dean by convincing him he'll go full on demon without him around to manage Dean's compulsions.

Crowley is Dean's pusher really.

Edited October 8, 2014 by catrox14

[Hana Chan]

on Crowley' part maybe. But not on Dean's. I think Dean is tolerating Crowley at this point. Any attachment Dean has is based on his need for the blade and that Crowley was controlling Dean by convincing him he'll go full on demon without him around to manage Dean's compulsions.

Crowley is Dean's pusher really.

 

I'm seeing a whole lot of parallels between Demonized MoC Dean and Sam while hopped up on demon juice (and then soulless). Both had their demonic Jimmie Crickets egging them along to make really self-destructive choices that accomplished their goals but ended up throwing them into super deep, dark waters. Both of them ended up subjected by something that ended up controlling them in the end. Both thought that the ends justified the means. And now Dean is off indulging his most base instincts much the same way soulless Sam did, without real care about the collateral damage that he leaves behind. The big difference here though is the question of how much Dean is able/willing to fight back over what is controlling him. This is his own soul that is warped and he's the one who will ultimately need to fix it.

 

Crowley is using the MoC to keep Dean on as much a leash as he is able to. I don't think that Dean has been totally corrupted to the point of no return as of yet and Crowley would be the one to try to push Dean over the edge. I keep thinking that killing Sam (what Caine did to Abel) would be the thing that pushes Dean over the edge and it's why Crowley called Sam. He knew that Sam would be hunting them and he wanted to keep Sam angry and on the trail. So he used all of Sam's weak spots (how he didn't try to find Dean while he was in Purgatory and now he's been replaced in Dean's life) to try to instigate Sam.

 

I think that in the end, this will again come down to the brothers willing to do anything at all for one another, even at the cost of their own lives. Whatever one thinks about the relationship between the Winchesters, the protectiveness that Dean has always felt in regard to Sam has been the one huge constant in his character. If Dean reaches the point where he is not only uncaring if something happens to Sam, but is willing to kill Sam himself, then he would be completely lost.

[mizkat]

I'm seeing a whole lot of parallels between Demonized MoC Dean and Sam while hopped up on demon juice (and then soulless). Both had their demonic Jimmie Crickets egging them along to make really self-destructive choices that accomplished their goals but ended up throwing them into super deep, dark waters. Both of them ended up subjected by something that ended up controlling them in the end. Both thought that the ends justified the means. And now Dean is off indulging his most base instincts much the same way soulless Sam did, without real care about the collateral damage that he leaves behind.

 

This made me wonder about something--what are Dean's goals? I posted in the Black thread that Cas needed a goal (or quest) to make him and his story interesting. The same goes for Dean. Soulless Sam's goal was to hunt and hunt ruthlessly. But what does Demon Dean want to do? Hopefully not drink, screw, and sing karaoke, unless the human remnant of Dean is keeping Demon Dean's base nature sated to keep him from going off the rails. I also find Crowley's lack of inactivity strange, unless the human part of him is reluctant to drag Dean back to hell. If we're going to have this Dean/Crowley partnership I'd like to see more of their internal struggles with whatever humanity is still left inside them.  

[SueB]

 

But what does Demon Dean want to do? Hopefully not drink, screw, and sing karaoke, unless the human remnant of Dean is keeping Demon Dean's base nature sated to keep him from going off the rails. I also find Crowley's lack of inactivity strange, unless the human part of him is reluctant to drag Dean back to hell. If we're going to have this Dean/Crowley partnership I'd like to see more of their internal struggles with whatever humanity is still left inside them.

Interesting topic.  Dean said "The deal was, we howl at the moon. No time stamp. No expiration date."  So although Dean didn't make an actual "deal" deal with Crowley, I think he is WITH Crowley and not killing him to go have a party.  I think he is also relying on Crowley to keep a truce between them regarding no backstabbing.  Now that Crowley gave him a "last call" warning, Dean has to make a decision regarding what he's going to do. I honestly don't think Dean has remotely formulated a plan.  Like his pre-demon self, he's ignoring it until he can't.  I think "can't ignore" time started with his drinking binge in Black.   And his morning-after plan was run away with Ann Marie. Not out of true love but Dean wants companionship I believe.  So -- toss out Crowley, get a new bud for a while.  And she has the added benefit of being good in the sack (projecting a Dean thought here...not how I would personally value Ann Marie).

[catrox14]

I don't think he was serious about wanting to leave with HER per se. he doesn't want to be alone and he's sick of Crowley. he is one depressed demon IMO

[Demented Daisy]

Since there has been some spec about episode titles this season, I present these lines from "Black" by Pearl Jam:

 

All the love gone bad, turned my world to black
Tattooed all I see, all that I am, all I'll be,

 

Might give us an idea about where Dean's head is at, assuming he knows he's a demon.  (I base that on Dean's statement that killing keeps the Mark from "turning" him into a demon.  Odd phrase if he already knows his soul has been twisted.)

 

ETA  Oops, missed a word.  Makes more sense now.  Should have proofread better.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[Aeryn13]

 

But what does Demon Dean want to do?

I think he actually does what to be free. Which is hard to portray as a goal because it can look inactive or shallow. But I don`t think there really is much in the way of a clear-cut goal you could show with Demon!Dean believably.

 

He does not want to run hell same way as he does not want to run anything. It is responsibility and work and he doesn`t crave the power, he wants to be left alone.

 

He does not want to hunt because that, too, is inextricably linked for Dean with feelings of responsibility and "doing the right thing" as well as compassion and nobility. Demon!Dean would scoff at those.

 

Obviously, he does not want to pal around with Sam, He does not want a "normal life". He does not want to torture for torture`s sake.

 

What he wnats to do is what we saw him dojng. And realistically, he supressed a lot of what he wanted for years on end. There were 40 years in hell he couldn`t do what he wanted - the ten years still very much count as that for me. Now it`s apparently only been 6 weeks of hedonism. I know real life people who actually went on a narcasisstic binge after being release from a longterm crushing responsibility situation. They didn`t even get started at 6 weeks. One got it together again after three years. 

[catrox14]

I base that Dean's statement that killing keeps the Mark from "turning" him into a demon.  Odd phrase if he already knows his soul has been twisted.)

 

This is why I don't think Dean knows he's a demon...yet.  I think Crowley has been misleading him all along to keep him under his control.

 

In the s9 finale he told Dean that the Mark was killing him and that the only reason Cain could handle the power was because he was a demon. He told Dean "more he kills the better he feels and the less he kills the less better he feels' "The least best better" Dean knew the Mark was going to kill him or turn him into a murderer which is why he wanted to die. (Thanks Sam! just kidding)

.

I don't think Dean really considered that he would survive much less be turned into a demon by the Mark. So I could see where he's believing what Crowley is saying based off what he knows to this point about the MoC. 

 

But I think he learns, figures it out or is told by someone before ep3 because at that point he knows he's a demon or so it seems. Right now, he might not even realize that his eyes are flashing black. 

 

But then again I could be totally wrong and it was shitty confusing writing.

[Demented Daisy]

The more I think about it, Crowley needs to die.  I love Mark Sheppard and the character has been great fun, but once Dean finds out that the Mark of Cain has turned him into a demon, and that it was all part of Crowley's plan, I can't see how Dean can't not kill him.  It was bad enough when they didn't kill him when he dragged Bobby's soul to Hell, but how can Sam and Dean let him live after this?

 

Now, do I think they're going to kill him?  No.  Just like, even though his story lines have gotten ridiculously redundant, I don't think Cas is going anywhere.  But Crowley needs to die.

[catrox14]

Yeah, once Crowley became part and parcel of turning Dean into a demon, he is on the crap list forever. And yes I agree there is now way Dean doesn't try to kill him. 

 

But Carver is in love with Crowley and I wouldn't put it past him to make Crowley human before it's all said and done and the moral dilemma becomes "Do Sam and Dean still kill Crowley if he's now human". I vote yes, they should!

[Demented Daisy]

Okay, if Crowley becomes human, and Cas dies as a result of losing his grace (which might be why they're bringing Claire back, to wrap up his storyline), and Team Free Will becomes Sam, Dean, and Crowley, I might have to give up.  It's so far from "saving people and hunting things" -- and that is unacceptable to me.

 

Bobby was pissed that Dean was pals with a vampire.  Imagine what he'd have to say about Crowley.

 

(All spec on my part.  I have no proof that any of this will happen.)

[Julia]

However: just like Dean invited Gadreel to take over Sam, Sam invited Crowley to do what he did (Crowley, you got him into this, you fix it, is I think what he said). Considering what Sam put Dean through over that, I'd be really amazed if Dean doesn't give Sam some serious shit over this.

[catrox14]

I kind of hope that Dean finally unleashes on Sam for not looking for him in S8. I would really love for Dean to make some commentary to the effect of..

 

"So Sam, You couldn't get off your ass to look for me when I was in Purgatory when I was still fucking human and you left Kevin to Crowley, but for some reason now you are willing to go to any extreme to save me? Did it really take me being murdered and turned into a demon for you to give a shit?"

 

I would pay all the money for that.

[AwesomO4000]

However: just like Dean invited Gadreel to take over Sam, Sam invited Crowley to do what he did (Crowley, you got him into this, you fix it, is I think what he said). Considering what Sam put Dean through over that, I'd be really amazed if Dean doesn't give Sam some serious shit over this.

I'm not completely clear on whether or not Crowley was necessary for Dean to be alive again/ turn into a demon. Was it the mark alone or did Dean need to have the blade to be "alive" again? If it was the mark alone, Sam had nothing to do with it since he wasn't there when Dean took on the mark. That was partially Crowley's influence and was what Sam was referring to when he said that Crowley got Dean into this. If the blade was needed for Dean to be "alive,"  then I think Sam was only a small bit responsible for what happened, because Sam called Crowley to him (Sam) not to go to Dean, so any contract / deal / agreement should have gone through Sam. Crowley circumvented that. Now for me, that doesn't negate that Sam did want to make some sort of deal and/or agreement, but Dean becoming a demon was not really on Sam as far as I'm concerned since Crowley was not following the usual demon "rules" in that regard. It would be a pretty big stretch for "fixing it" to be interpreted as "make Dean a demon." And as I mentioned above, depending on the influence of the mark, it's possible that Crowley didn't really do anything - it's possible that it was entirely the mark that brought Dean back.

Edited October 9, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

I think it could be argued that Dean is a demon because Sam couldn't let him go after Dean died in the warehouse. If Sam would have salted and burned him immediately instead of taking him back to his room, none of this would have happened. If Sam had never summoned Crowley, Crowley would not have in the been in Dean's room.  So a lot of this is because Sam couldn't let Dean stay dead just like Dean couldn't let Sam stay dead. But what I find more interesting is that Sam was really after Crowley more than Dean IMO. Vengeance seems to be Sam's raison d'etre. 

 

 

What we don't know is if the Mark itself would have kept Dean alive because he wasn't a demon when he died. 

Edited October 9, 2014 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

What we don't know is if the Mark itself would have kept Dean alive because he wasn't a demon when he died.

But I didn't think that Cain was either. I thought that Crowley said that he killed himself and then the mark made him come back as a demon. Or am I remembering that wrongly?

 

I'm not so sure about Crowley coming either. Since he didn't go to Sam - who was the one who called him - was he already there in Dean's room as Sam was summoning? Where did he get the blade from?

 

I think that there are still some unknowns here.

 

And the salting and burning might have worked... or depending on the mark's influence, it might've been really... messy.

Edited October 10, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

I'm not sure that Sam summoning Crowley had anything to do with Crowley showing up. Crowley says that Sam was doing the summoning as he spoke, which means he showed up before Sam actually summoned him. Crowley was there because Crowley wanted to be there, IMO.

 

I wish they hadn't done the time jump, I think it would have been more interesting to see the moment Sam finds Dean gone. And I think it would have been more interesting to see Dean's first few days as a demon.

 

 

ETA: What AwesomO said.

Edited October 9, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[kimrey]

10.04 description

 

“Paper Moon” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET) (TV-14, LV) (HDTV)

WEREWOLF KATE RETURNS — A recent string of werewolf attacks points to a surprising culprit – Kate (guest star Britni Sheridan), the werewolf Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) let live. Jeannot Szwarc directed the episode written by Adam Glass (#1004). Original airdate 10/28/2014.

 

 

 

Didn't see that one coming.  This will be the first case Sam and Dean work together after Dean is cured. 

Edited October 10, 2014 by kimrey

[SueB]

Wow.  Didn't expect that either. But now it kinda fits.  This goes right back to what Carver said: Sam and Dean are going to be examining what good do they do? Sam made a case to Dean he should have let him die. I'm going to call it now -- half the cases will make them feel like they were failures in the past and cause manpain.  But I am 100% positive they end up deciding they do more good than bad and should stay in the fight. Otherwise, show ends.  So... given that I think I may have just summed up the plot of the season, I hope each episode is interesting. 

[Demented Daisy]

Sounds an awful lot like Lenore.  Or Amy.  Funny how it's the female monsters that they let go, but start killing again.  (I'm sure it's a red herring and Kate isn't actually killing.)  

[catrox14]

Man...I'm pretty disappointed in this quick curing of Dean. I am holding out a faint hope that maybe Dean isn't really cured but is choosing like Cain to be a good man as long as the Blade is nowhere near him.  I hated Demon!Dean but jeez do something awesome with it, you cowards :(

 

 

I wish they hadn't done the time jump, I think it would have been more interesting to see the moment Sam finds Dean gone. And I think it would have been more interesting to see Dean's first few days as a demon.

 

I can't believe we won't get to see him either realize when he became a demon or if he doesn't know yet to see him discover it. That's gonna be some really shitty writing if we don't get that at some point. :(.  Even a flashback down the road.

Edited October 10, 2014 by catrox14

[kimrey]

I think there will be some flashbacks in episode 3 or at least in one interview Jared did at the TCAs (I think) he said there would be.  Don't ask me to find that interview, I won't be able to haha.  I just remember him quickly saying something about flashbacks and episode 3.

 

Which kinda makes sense since the demon Sam was torturing in the beginning of the premiere it supposed to be in that episode as well.  I'm thinking it will flashback to that scene and we'll see more of what he did.  So if they're going to show Sam flashbacks then I assume they'll show some Dean ones.  At least I hope so.

 

 

[SueB]

Guy Norman Bee is directing EP.10.9  He's been tweeting some photos, nothing too spoilery but this does suggest the three amigos are together:
http://campl.us/rEQv

 

and I think that MIGHT be Dean leaning against the pillar (black T-shirt) in the MOL:
http://campl.us/rEFw

[SueB]

Extended promo for "Reichenbach" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_DjSOEXaHE

 

Slowing it down a bit and looking at hyper-details:

- So Dean is apparently hanging at a place called The Flamingo Lounge. It appears to be where the stripper is dancing, where the bouncer gets pummeled, and more importantly, where Dean beats up Cole and has a confrontation w/ Sam. The sequence is unclear and I'm pretty sure we are not seeing things remotely in order.

 

Scenes:

- Crowley confronting Dean (who is wearing a blue heavy jacket with the red shirt underneath) about "what are you doing."  Not clear where this confrontation takes place. This is interspersed with...

- Dean beating the shit out of Cole. Yes! That's Cole. And it's outside the Flamingo lounge.  Now the Cole scene looks like a flashback but that MAY just be for the trailer, Dean is wearing only the red shirt w/ T-shirt under. No heavy blue jacket.

- Dean replying "whatever I want" to Crowley

- TUESDAY

- Sam voice-over "Dean is not Dean right now."

- Dean at the Flamingo, watching a stripper. He's wearing a blue shirt -- implied different day.

- Dean stabbing someone with an angel blade (vice The First Blade). He says "Watch This."  (CW sending subliminal message here) He's wearing the same clothes as when he is talking with Crowley. (blue jacket, red shirt)

- Cas confirming "Dean's a demon?"

- Dean slicing his own hand with The First Blade. 

- Sam telling Dean "whatever happened, we will fix it". Dean is in the red shirt, it's daytime, and he and Sam appear to be having this confrontation inside the Flamingo Lounge.

- BROTHER'S KEEPER

- Dean: "I'm doing all I can not to rip out your throat." ...confrontation continues

- BROTHER'S REAPER

- Sam: "You could have killed that guy and you didn't. You took mercy on him" played over Dean beating the shit out of the bouncer (at night, and Dean is back in the blue shirt).

- Dean: "What 'm going to do to you Sammy, well that ain't going to be mercy." Voice over as Dean walks out of the fog in the bar where Sam/Dean have their confrontation.

- Somebody punching the shit out of Sam's face, I think it's Cole and (I believe) in an ally (maybe next to Flamingo Lounge, maybe not). I don't think Sam has the bruising on his face at the start of this scene that he does for the confrontation w/ Dean.

 

GUESS at sequence:

- Dean is partying at the bar, beats up the bouncer

- Cole catches wind of the fight, drags Sam to The Flamingo. He knocks Sam out.

- Dean beats the shit out of Cole

- Sam confronts Dean

- COMPLETE GUESSING: Potentially Dean knocks out Sam, cuts his hand and feeds him his blood. This is his 'not mercy' bit.

- Dean kills someone Crowley sent to get him, Crowley confronts Dean

 

If I was a guessing gal (on sequence), I'd guess Dean LET himself be found by Cole. Then he beats the shit out of Cole and frees an unconscious Sam. Sam confronts Dean in the bar and the guy he is talking about not being killed is Cole. I can't tell when Crowley shows up.

Edited October 10, 2014 by SueB

[kimrey]

I'm thinking about how this all ties in with Dean and Sam ending up in the bunker episode 3.  Since Dean is wearing the same thing he wears in the clips for that episode I'm thinking Sam is somehow able to knock him out or something (not sure how) and get him back to the bunker where he ties him up.

 

I do think that confrontation probably happens at the very end, as in the last scene and Sam will somehow get the upper hand.  It's the only way I can see how they end up in the bunker together.

[DittyDotDot]

I was thinking Sam probably does some sort of summoning and thinks he has a trap for him, but Dean being not a regular demon is able to escape the trap at some point and that's when the stalking begins. That's my piss-poor theory anyway.

[SueB]

Good ideas. I do think they tend to wrap up the previous Season cliffhanger in a series of quick back-to-back events at the start of the next Season. So although we had a big time jump at the start of S10, and in EP1, EP2-3 will be relatively short in-show time duration. So EP2 bleeding into EP3 makes total sense.