Spoilers With Speculation

[Wayward Son]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but according to today's update to the spoiler sheet Lady Toni is making a return in episode 20! 

[DittyDotDot]

I figured we'd see her again. My own personal theory is she'll be leading a group of renegades within the BMoL...

[Myrelle]

UGH.

[MysteryGuest]

Yeah, we knew she'd be back eventually.  I still think they're going to make her the sympathetic one, somehow.  I find it hard to believe that Ketch is the good one in that relationship.  We know he's a killer even if Sam and Dean don't.  And there has to be a reason for why she did what she did.  We'll see whether it's plausible or not.  

[AwesomO4000]

With my luck, they'll have Sam side with Lady Toni against Dean, because he believes the BMoL are doing good and/or maybe Lady Toni is just misunderstood (like Gadreel) - even if that makes little to no sense. Not that I'd believe Dean siding with Lady Toni either, but this show seems to have a twisted fetish of making Sam work with and/or defend people or beings who tortured him, so I wouldn't put it past them to have it be Sam.

Edited March 13, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

To me, Lady Toni coming back implies the BMoL storyline is coming to a head. That works for me. 

[auntvi]

I just saw that SPN's season finale will be on Thurs. May 18 and will be 2 hrs from 8-10 eastern. They could do a lot in 2 hrs................

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I just saw that SPN's season finale will be on Thurs. May 18 and will be 2 hrs from 8-10 eastern. They could do a lot in 2 hrs................

Holy shit. That's pretty wild. I wonder why.

Oh boy.

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

With my luck, they'll have Sam side with Lady Toni against Dean, because he believes the BMoL are doing good and/or maybe Lady Toni is just misunderstood (like Gadreel) - even if that makes little to no sense. Not that I'd believe Dean siding with Lady Toni either, but this show seems to have a twisted fetish of making Sam work with and/or defend people or beings who tortured him, so I wouldn't put it past them to have it be Sam.

Given this show has not a fucking clue about dub-con, non-con shit in relationships, I wouldn't put it past them to have Sam and  Lady WHYAREYOUEVENALIVE , be in a love triangle with Ketch.

[MysteryGuest]

It says back-to-back episodes, so it's not really a 2 hour episode.  Is it because they're going to have an extra hiatus between now and then and they want most of their shows to end on the same week?  I'm not sure if it's good or bad.  

[Wayward Son]

It could just simply be due to the fact Riverdale ends the week before and they wanted the full two hours to be original content. 

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

It says back-to-back episodes, so it's not really a 2 hour episode.  Is it because they're going to have an extra hiatus between now and then and they want most of their shows to end on the same week?  I'm not sure if it's good or bad.  

Quote

DC’s Legends of Tomorrow – Tuesday, April 4 at 8p ET
Riverdale – Thursday, May 11 at 9p ET
Supergirl – Monday, May 22 at 8p ET
Jane the Virgin – Monday, May 22 at 9p ET
The Flash – Tuesday, May 23 at 8p ET
Arrow – Wednesday, May 24 at 8p ET
The 100 – Wednesday, May 24 at 9p ET
Supernatural (back-to-back epsiode) – Thursday, May 18 from 8-10p ET

SPN won't be ending the same week as the other big ones.  This is really curious for me.

[SueB]

That IS curious.  I'll be interested in the reasoning. 

[ILoveReading]

I wonder if they want the time slot to launch summer programming, the following week.

[MysteryGuest]

I wonder what's on it SPN's time slot on Thursday the 25th?  If it's just a repeat, then it doesn't make sense, but maybe something else is slated for that date.

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, SueB said:

That IS curious.  I'll be interested in the reasoning. 

OH OH OH>

What if DC doesn't want SPN to get better ratings than their babies during finale week? I mean SPN has been beating Arrow fairly often?

When is the JIBcon? Maybe something really big happens and they want a week to decompress before having to face fans at cons LOL (I'm mostly kidding )

[DittyDotDot]

Are we sure it's going to be two new episodes airing together because according to this: http://ibelieveinthelittletreetopper.tumblr.com/post/147242139088/supernatural-season-12-spoiler-sheet it will be a re-airing of 12.22 followed by the finale (12.23).

So updating my list from a few pages back:

Episode 12x16   Ladies Drink Free

• Written by: Meredith Glynn
• Director:  Amyn Kaderali
• Filming Dates: January 25 - February 3
• Airdate: March 30
• Castiel? No. Crowley? No.
• Guest stars: Kathryn Love Newton (Claire Novak), Adam Fergus (Mick), Ryan McDonnell (Connor), Abby Ross (Hayden Foster), Miranda Frigon (Abby’s mom), Manoj Sood (Doctor).

Episode 12x17    The British Invasion

• Written by:  Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Lemming
• Director:  John F. Showalter
• Filming Dates: February 6 - February 16 (no filming Monday 2/13 for Family Day (Canada))
• Airdate: April 6
• Castiel? No. Crowley? Yes.
• Guest stars: Samantha Smith (Mary Winchester), David Haydn-Jones (Mr. Ketch), Mark Pellegrino (Lucifer), Courtney Ford (Kelly Kline), Ali Ahn (Dagon)

Episode 12x18    Title Unknown

• Written by: John Bring
• Director:  Phil Sgriccia
• Filming Dates: February 17 - February 28
• Airdate: April 13
• Castiel? No. Crowley? No.
• Guest stars: David Haydn Jones (Mr. Ketch), Aliesha Pearson (Carmen), Antonio Marizale (Daryn Boston), Briana Buckmaster (Donna) was scheduled, but has since said she won't be in it.

Episode 12x19   Title Unknown

• Written by:  Robert Berens and Meredith Glynn
• Director:  Amanda Tapping
• Filming Dates: March 1 - March 10
• Airdate: April 20
• Castiel? Yes (Misha's 100th show credit) Crowley? No.
• Guest stars: Courtney Ford (Kelly Kline), Damien Mavis (Hozai),  Mark Pellegrino (Lucifer)

Episode 12x20  (Currently filming)      Title Unknown

• Written by: Steve Yockey
• Director:  Richard Speight Jr
• Filming Dates: March 13  - 22
• Airdate: April 27
• Castiel? Possibly. Crowley? Possibly.
• Guest stars: David Haydn Jones (Mr. Ketch), Elizabeth Blackmore (Toni Bevell)

Episode 12x21   Title Unknown

• Written by:  Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Lemming
• Director:  PJ Pesce
• Filming Dates: March 23 - April 3
• Airdate: May 4
• Castiel? Probably Crowley? Probably
• Guest stars:  Elizabeth Blackmore (Toni Bevell)

Episode 12x22   Title Unknown

• Written by: Robert Berens 
• Director:   Thomas Wright or Phill Sgriccia or Bob Singer
• Filming Dates: April 4 - April 13
• Airdate: May 11
• Castiel? Probably Crowley? Probably
• Guest stars: Courtney Ford (Kelly Kline), Elizabeth Blackmore (Toni Bevell)

Episode 12x23    Title Unknown

• Written by: Andrew Dabb
• Director:  Thomas Wright or Phill Sgriccia
• Filming Dates: April 14 - April 26
• Airdate: May 18 (following rerun of 12x22)
• Castiel? Probably  Crowley?  Probably
• Guest stars: Courtney Ford (Kelly Kline)

Edited March 14, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

Hmmm...that makes even less sense to me, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.  Why repeat the episode from the prior week?

[DeeDee79]

10 hours ago, Myrelle said:

UGH.

What she said :(

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Hmmm...that makes even less sense to me, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.  Why repeat the episode from the prior week?

Because they don't have anything else to fill the slot? I dunno, but I think they've done this before...S7? I actually think it's interesting, they'll be their own lead-in. ;)

[ILoveReading]

49 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

When is the JIBcon? Maybe something really big happens and they want a week to decompress before having to face fans at cons LOL (I'm mostly kidding )

Jensen, did spoil the final at  a con last year, so maybe there is some truth to this.  

Edited March 14, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

He lowkey spoiled the s9 finale too LOL. That little shit. I love him

[ILoveReading]

Just now, catrox14 said:

He lowkey spoiled the s9 finale too LOL. That little shit. I love him

Poor boy can't help himself. 

[auntvi]

The notsodynamic duo have 2 more episodes :/

Samantha Smith is not listed as a guest star after ep.17. I wonder if that will change? Surely they won't kill her off that early?!

[Wayward Son]

45 minutes ago, auntvi said:

The notsodynamic duo have 2 more episodes :/

Samantha Smith is not listed as a guest star after ep.17. I wonder if that will change? Surely they won't kill her off that early?!

I think, for most of the cast, the person who makes the spoiler sheet can only make guarantees as far as the episode that they're currently filming. The same way as Castiel and Crowley are listed as "Probably" for episodes 21-23. All that means is Samantha Smith isn't in episodes eighteen and nineteen. She could easily be in twenty and beyond though and they just haven't filmed it yet. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Wayward Son

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

So updating my list from a few pages back:

Crap - she's back for three episodes?  [20, 21, 22].  Oh, because one obviously isn't bad enough.  (<read that DRIPPING with sarcasm.) *beating my head on the nearest hard surface*

Maybe she dies in 22, and that's why she's not in the finale?  [One can only hope!]

[catrox14]

Well, I'm looking forward to the Steve Yockey episodes more than the others. I feel like this season at least based on the two episodes he's written, (Asa Fox and Lily Sunder) he seems to get the characters. He lacks a little on plot and lore but I'll take character over plot any day of the week.

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, auntvi said:

The notsodynamic duo have 2 more episodes :/

Samantha Smith is not listed as a guest star after ep.17. I wonder if that will change? Surely they won't kill her off that early?!

It could be they're keeping a lid on what Samantha Smith is in right now to keep people guessing? It might also be that some of the guest stars listed aren't entirely accurate too. These aren't official spoilers from the show, but things collected from many public places--some of them actors appearances at cons and their social media accounts, some set reports and such--these things can change as we go along. Look at 12.18, back in February Brianna was reported to be in that episode, but since said she wasn't. 

So, while it is certainly a possibility they kill Mary--I hope not, I want her to stick around for next season, myself--it might just be there are no "rumors" of her presence on set after episode 17 yet.

Edited March 14, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Diane]

I couldn't remember where this was being discussed, but found this on:

http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/Season_12

This is the first season to have 5 series regulars as Mark Pellegrino has been promoted as of Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell.  This season marks his first season as a series regular, since he was a guest in all his previous appearances.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, Diane said:

I couldn't remember where this was being discussed, but found this on:

http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/Season_12

This is the first season to have 5 series regulars as Mark Pellegrino has been promoted as of Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell.  This season marks his first season as a series regular, since he was a guest in all his previous appearances.

Thanks for that Diane :) . 

It's strange how quiet about it the show has been. I remember there were numerous articles and an interview posted when Misha and Mark Shepherd got promoted. 

[Diane]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Thanks for that Diane :) . 

It's strange how quiet about it the show has been. I remember there were numerous articles and an interview posted when Misha and Mark Shepherd got promoted. 

I know a little strange, but I am just quoting Wiki, I don't have another source. So take it with a grain of salt.

[Binns]

On 3/14/2017 at 2:41 AM, catrox14 said:

Well, I'm looking forward to the Steve Yockey episodes more than the others. I feel like this season at least based on the two episodes he's written, (Asa Fox and Lily Sunder) he seems to get the characters. He lacks a little on plot and lore but I'll take character over plot any day of the week.

Amen to this. Maybe he actually watched the show before trying to write for it DAVY PEREZ. 

[catrox14]

Not gonna lie. Mark's promotion to series regular really makes me worry for Cas even more.

I mean they are now carrying 5 series regulars which is THISCLOSE to an ensemble. Pellegrino can't have been a cheap get because IMO he's pretty in demand.

HMMMM. :/

[Wayward Son]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Not gonna lie. Mark's promotion to series regular really makes me worry for Cas even more.

I mean they are now carrying 5 series regulars which is THISCLOSE to an ensemble. Pellegrino can't have been a cheap get because IMO he's pretty in demand.

HMMMM. :/

 I'm also wondering if there's been a purposeful shift with Crowley! This season they've been really setting him up to be more of an ally IMO. I fear the intention is to have him side with Sam and Dean fully (taking over Cas' role as the Supernatural best friend yuck), while Lucifer replaces Crowley as the long term frenemy antagonist. 

[DittyDotDot]

On 3/13/2017 at 10:20 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Crap - she's back for three episodes?  [20, 21, 22].  Oh, because one obviously isn't bad enough.  (<read that DRIPPING with sarcasm.) *beating my head on the nearest hard surface*

Maybe she dies in 22, and that's why she's not in the finale?  [One can only hope!]

I missed this earlier for some reason. Yeah, I'm not sure we needed her for three more episodes, but maybe it'll make sense when we get there? I do find it interesting she's confirmed somehow, but they aren't sure on Cass and Crowley? Although the source wasn't sited, so maybe that's not reliable information and she'll only make the one appearance and die horribly...feel better now? ;)

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Not gonna lie. Mark's promotion to series regular really makes me worry for Cas even more.

I mean they are now carrying 5 series regulars which is THISCLOSE to an ensemble. Pellegrino can't have been a cheap get because IMO he's pretty in demand.

HMMMM. :/

I think it just means they wanted to lock Pelligrino in early and not lose him to some other project. All a series regular means is they have a contracted number of episodes they must be available to the show for. Which means the actor really can't accept other work. So, since Pelligrino is a busy guy, they made sure they wouldn't lose him to another show like they did with Sterling K. Brown or Samantha Ferris. 

I'm not sure it means Pelligrino will be back next season or that he holds the same status Mark and Misha do. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I'm still not at all concerned for Castiel's fate this season. If anything this season has said to me the show is invested in Castiel and is more committed to keeping him around.

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 I'm also wondering if there's been a purposeful shift with Crowley! This season they've been really setting him up to be more of an ally IMO. I fear the intention is to have him side with Sam and Dean fully (taking over Cas' role as the Supernatural best friend yuck), while Lucifer replaces Crowley as the long term frenemy antagonist. 

See, I think there's been a shift to make Crowley less important to Sam and Dean this season. Almost like they're trying to put him back in a more antagonist role. It seems to me they've been trying to give Crowley his edge back.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I missed this earlier for some reason. Yeah, I'm not sure we needed her for three more episodes, but maybe it'll make sense when we get there? I do find it interesting she's confirmed somehow, but they aren't sure on Cass and Crowley? Although the source waisn't sited, so maybe that's not reliable information and she'll only make the one appearance and die horribly...feel better now? ;)

I think Jess (the person who makes the spoiler sheet) mentioned that the IMDB cast list for  episodes had been updated to include the actress who played Lady Toni. I don't use IMDB so I've no clue how accurate they are or if they can be edited by anyone. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

and she'll only make the one appearance and die horribly...feel better now? ;)

Well it makes me feel better imagining all the horrible ways she could die.  Does that count?  ;)

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I think Jess

Heh - for a second I thought this was Sam's Jess.  (My brain gets ahead of my eyes like that.  And then I read the rest of your post.)  And I was like "How the hell does she know?"  Lol.  Sorry.  Ahem.  Never mind me...

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it just means they wanted to lock Pelligrino in early and not lose him to some other project. All a series regular means is they have a contracted number of episodes they must be available to the show for. Which means the actor really can't accept other work. So, since Pelligrino is a busy guy, they made sure they wouldn't lose him to another show like they did with Sterling K. Brown or Samantha Ferris. 

Yeah, I know. I didn't define what a series regular means again here given how often we've discussed it.

My point is that to get an in-demand actor like Pellegrino to a series regular contract cannot be inexpensive. There has to be a financial incentive for him to give up other possibilities. That's why I'm worried for Misha/Cas. 

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure it means Pelligrino will be back next season or that he holds the same status Mark and Misha do. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I'm still not at all concerned for Castiel's fate this season. If anything this season has said to me the show is invested in Castiel and is more committed to keeping him around

 

I look at it just the opposite. IMO, officially attaching him to the boys as family, almost killing him and now him going off to Heaven does not leave me feeling that Cas is more safe than before. It feels like they are giving him the Long Goodbye.

If the goal is to given the boys more time off then bringing back Lucifer gives them another person to do that. They are going to have to pony up more money for Pellegrino and the other 4 OR cut back on someone else. I mean this show is created on a shoestring (for TV purposes budget as it is). 

But hey that's just me, I'm cynical

[companionenvy]

If this show kills off Cas, keeps Crowley, and makes Lucifer a regular beyond this season, it might actually be the final straw that gets me to stop watching. But I don't think it is happening, so I'll reserve my outrage. 

I think it is more likely MP has become a regular now because this is his final arc, and it was part of the negotiations for his return. 

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It feels like they are giving him the Long Goodbye.

I felt that way in S9, but this season I've felt the opposite. I actually expected Cass to die last season and when they had Lucifer possess him, I figured Cass wouldn't return from that. Maybe it's just that they've cried wolf too many times and nothing the show is actually doing? 

[AwesomO4000]

39 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

See, I think there's been a shift to make Crowley less important to Sam and Dean this season. Almost like they're trying to put him back in a more antagonist role. It seems to me they've been trying to give Crowley his edge back.

40 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

See, I think there's been a shift to make Crowley less important to Sam and Dean this season. Almost like they're trying to put him back in a more antagonist role. It seems to me they've been trying to give Crowley his edge back.

 

I agree with triple D on this one. I think I even theorized somewhere that maybe Crowley has been playing a long game - his telling Lucifer that he was "10 steps ahead" - and that his saving Castiel was a part of that. When Crowley saved Cas, he already had Lucifer. He was already planning to do something with Lucifer, and I don't think it's necessarily just about revenge, because as someone pointed out, letting Lucifer be put back into the cage would be good enough there. I'm thinking that it has something to do with Lucifer's spawn and having Lucifer under his control might give him an in, a hold over, or something concerning that child. He tried it before with Amara, and he didn't have enough control over the situation for it to work. My guess is that this time, Crowley intends to do it "right" or at least go in smarter and with more leverage. In other words, I could see this as Crowley taking the "Ruby" approach here... he's being useful, he's saving Castiel, he's helping Sam and Dean, but behind the scenes he has his own agenda and maybe Meg's words about Crowley are gonna bite Sam and Dean in the ass.

(Please, please can Sam then cover him in spiders and lock him up in the cage with Lucifer where they can torment each other for the next couple 100 years?)

[ILoveReading]

I saw a post on Tumblr that said the Witch Twins will be back for episode 20.

I wonder if we'll get press release for episode 17 today. 

I figure despite, the Claire stuff the boys won't stop working for the BMOL's because its too early in the season for things to come to head.  I figure episode 16 will be used to get Dean on board.   I can see Mick using an argument on Dean, that Claire wouldn't be in danger if she didn't have to hunt. 

One thing that really bothers me about it is that the boys think their working for the Brits on their terms but whether they realize it or not they are furthering the Brits agenda. 

Because Sam and Dean are the premier hunters in the US that other hunters look up to.  The Brits are having trouble getting decent hunters on board.  So I'm guessing Mick's pitch now includes, All three Winchesters are working with us.  He woudn't be lying.  There is no way he'd bring up terms and conditions  

I wonder if The British Invasion isn't about them taking over the Bunker, but is about their influence spreading and more and more hunters getting on board.

This is why I wish they would have let Dean stick to his guns and refuse.   

[Wayward Son]

Quote

 THE WINCHESTERS FIND KELLY KLINE – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) get a lead on Kelly Kline’s (guest star Courtney Ford) whereabouts. Mick (guest star Adam Fergus) drops by the bunker unexpectedly and decides to join the hunt. John Showalter directed the episode written by Eugenie Ross-Leming & Brad Buckner (#1217). Original airdate 4/6/2017.

I'm torn! On the one hand, I find it annoying Cas doesn't appear after a lead is found on Kelly Kline, since that's meant to be his purpose for the season. On the other hand, I'm glad he gets to avoid the wrath of a nepotism duo episode! 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm torn! On the one hand, I find it annoying Cas doesn't appear after a lead is found since that's meant to be his purpose for the season. On the other hand, I'm glad he gets to avoid the wrath of a nepotism duo season! 

i try to not place TOO much importance on the poorly written synopses. maybe we'll get a glimpse. of him in heaven.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

i try to not place TOO much importance on the poorly written synopses. maybe we'll get a glimpse. of him in heaven.

Nah, it's been confirmed he won't be in the episode. Misha was in LA while they filmed this and episode 18 if I remember correctly. 

So I was expecting him not to be around. I just find it hard to imagine a reason for him not to come since that's supposed to be what he (and now the angels) are focused on off screen. Of course knowing this show he'll just conveniently not exist for the duration of the episode *sigh* 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

Nah, it's been confirmed he won't be in the episode. Misha was in LA while they filmed this and episode 18 if I remember correctly. 

oh well never mind

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

oh well never mind

Sorry I edited my post to elaborate on what bugs me about the synopsis :) 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I just find it hard to imagine a reason for him not to come since that's supposed to be what he (and now the angels) are focused on off screen.

It does seem odd that Cas isn't involved in this episode since he's been trailing her all season and the angels "supposedly" want to find her as well. I hope this doesn't end up being a trap for Sam and Dean with an ambush by Dagon :*(

[MysteryGuest]

I can't imagine the show killing off Castiel and making Lucifer a regular cast member, beyond the end of this season.  I agree that if they do go that route, it will seriously make me consider giving up on this show.  I'm sick of having Lucifer rammed down our throats.  I don't get the fascination with Mark Pellegrino, frankly.  His Lucifer was interesting for a few episodes back in the early seasons, and then when he was in Sam's brain, but he has officially become tedious the last few seasons.  

Castiel and Misha are beloved by the majority of the fandom (I know there's a faction out there that doesn't like him, but I think they're in the minority).  I think we all agree that the writers need to come up with something interesting for Cas to do, but I just don't see them killing him off this close to the finish line.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

It does seem odd that Cas isn't involved in this episode since he's been trailing her all season and the angels "supposedly" want to find her as well. I hope this doesn't end up being a trap for Sam and Dean with an ambush by Dagon :*(

it make a me wonder if Cas won't be subjected to another reprogramming stint under the guise of Joshua going him so he can't even get out of heaven to help. oh maybe Dean has to try and save Cas from Heaven? that might be interesting.