Spoilers With Speculation

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd actually like to see a conversation between Mary and Sam about Dean.  Where Sam fills her in on times where Dean has been let down/betrayed or left behind by family.  If Sam is actually trying to logic the situation he needs to explain Dean's POV and why Dean's dug in so hard and is so resistant.   We need more than a half hearted, "he means well... but'"  or "he's stubborn" or "he's dramatic." 

UO but I don't want to see this.

I think it's up to Dean (not Sam) how much he wants Mary to know, or whether he wants his private business talked about with her at all. If Sam wants to open up to Mary about himself, that's different. But he doesn't have the right to crack Dean open for her.

IMO, Mary really hasn't done a whole lot to earn Dean's trust (or Sam's, or anybody's), and if Dean doesn't want to spill his guts to her right now, that's fair enough. I don't think it's really her shit to know (yet) IMO.

If/when Mary decides to open up to Dean and/or Sam, IMO that would be a sign that she's becoming more trustworthy and maybe it's time for one or both of the boys to start reciprocating. But until then...

[Wayward Son]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think that Dean just shut down in s7.  I don't think he could let himself feel Cas's death, Bobby's death, or what was going on with Sam or he was going to be more nonfunctional than Sam was.  A local channel was is showing s7 again  Dean had to once again be the one set aside what was going one with him and to be there for Sam.   So all those hurt feelings toward Cas ended up behind that locked reinforced box of things Dean doesn't want to deal with.  But there were cracks.  We saw him having nightmares.  He kept himself in that alcoholic haze most of the time.  He was drinking whiskey for breaksfast.  He kept the trenchcoat.  You can see it folded in the car during The Mentalists.   Unfortunately, the line was cut, but in the promo for The Born-Again Identity there was a line where Dean says 'Part of me never stopped hoping you'd come back."  (I still don't forgive them for cutting that. 

The show has a perfect opening here to actually address Dean's abandonment issues here.  I'd actually like to see a conversation between Mary and Sam about Dean.  Where Sam fills her in on times where Dean has been let down/betrayed or left behind by family.  If Sam is actually trying to logic the situation he needs to explain Dean's POV and why Dean's dug in so hard and is so resistant.   We need more than a half hearted, "he means well... but'"  or "he's stubborn" or "he's dramatic." 

Dean has a very legitimate grievance  here and I'd like to see it handled Dean's POV in mind and not just... boo hoo stop whining lecture the show tends to fall back on..

Hi @ILoveReading,

Thanks for responding and sharing your thoughts with me :) . I actually plan to start a full show rewatch soon, and when I reach season seven I'll try to watch with a new perspective and look out for those things you mention. 

In regards to that quote you mentioned, I would need to google to confirm it, but I'm fairly certain Jensen revealed at a con he was the one who recommended to Sera they cut the line out rather than something she initiated.

ETA: think his reasoning was that it was a little too emotionally revealing for Dean at that point. I actually find myself agreeing imo he was still more angry and bitter towards Cas at that point than therefore not likely to display vulnerability. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Mick Lady]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

He kept himself in that alcoholic haze most of the time.  He was drinking whiskey for breaksfast.  He kept the trenchcoat.  You can see it folded in the car during The Mentalists.   Unfortunately, the line was cut, but in the promo for The Born-Again Identity there was a line where Dean says 'Part of me never stopped hoping you'd come back."  (I still don't forgive them for cutting that. 

It's on the DVD, and I'll never forgive them for cutting it. For me, it was an important line.

Looks like Dean is heading down the same road. In the clip goldy provided, (Thanks goldy!) Sam says to Dean; "Good morning to you too" at the end of the conversation Dean says; "I need a drink, several" Not good.

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The show has a perfect opening here to actually address Dean's abandonment issues here. 

I would love this! But you know they won't. Fortunately, we will! Another reason I love you guys!

 

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

You're still new to the forum, and I know there was some confusion with some of your earlier posts, so maybe you're concerned about the way people react to your comments.  We (well, speaking for myself, *I*) love to hear others' takes, not only on what we see on the show, but what we'd *like* to see, so all comments are interesting, even if some don't agree with you.  That's the kickoff point for discussion, as long as all sides accept that there are different POVs.

TBH, I think I might annoy people because I tend to want to clarify things and often point out things that I think a poster might have missed or forgotten, like Dean's reaction in s.7.  That's my librarian "fact-checking" mode and unfortunately I can't turn it off, though I can sometimes sit on my hands and not post if I feel it's unnecessary.  It doesn't mean I disagree with someone, and isn't meant as a criticism.  You should never have to apologize for your opinions here. 

This so much! We may disagree, but I myself love hearing different takes on this show, and it's the best thing about the people here. You all make me think and see so many different points of view. It's fun!

[rue721]

1 minute ago, Boopsahoy said:

I can not fathom how Sam can work with them-his face last week when "reminding" Mary they tortured him said to me no way Jose...how are the writers going to explain it? I don't think he's a masochist either...

Not to beat a dead horse, but my take is that he would want to get involved in Mary's relationship with the BMOL because her judgement has proven to be pretty terrible, and that's going to make him pretty anxious to make sure he's in a position to help her (or hopefully extricate her) when needed. I mean literal physical position, too (as in, sticking close to her), because these guys are throwing her into physically very dangerous situations.

YMMV but if my mom were to go prancing off with some dangerous and conniving motherfuckers, yes, I would hop right into the backseat, too. I mean, she might be a callous idiot, but she is his mother. He's still going to want to help and protect her.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Hi @ILoveReading,

Thanks for responding and sharing your thoughts with me :) . I actually plan to start a full show rewatch soon, and when I reach season seven I'll try to watch with a new perspective and look out for those things you mention. 

In regards to that quote you mentioned, I would need to google to confirm it, but I'm fairly certain Jensen revealed at a con he was the one who recommended to Sera they cut the line out rather than something she initiated. 

I think it was an editing choice after it had been filmed  not a script change.

Jared and Jensen rewrote the breakup scene though at the end of slash fiction.

[shang yiet]

Did I hear Sam say in that clip he is also pissed and angry? Because he sure hasn't been showing any of that. I hope when things go south with Mary, he finally gets the chance to express all that anger and hit the roof.. Sam has been broken and betrayed by so many people that I don't know what Mary's actions are going to do to him. I don't know why he is so trusting either.

And can Sam please stop playing peacemaker? It's really dull to watch. I'd rather he focuses more on his own feelings than trying to keep the peace.

[Wayward Son]

General observation about the brothers I feel is relevant to the discussion about Sam willingness to work with the BMoL. 

In my opinion the brothers are interesting contrasts to one another. 

IMO Dean is the quickest to grow attached to people. Sam is much more reserved and it takes more to get him to let you in. On the other hand, if someone does them wrong Sam is far quicker to forgive than Dean. I think Sam's ability to forgive is rooted in his own self esteem issues. Sam has never truly forgiven him for what he did in season four and then his decision between seasons seven and eight. I think it's natural he'd extend the forgiveness Dean gave him to others who have hurt him (Mary and Cas).

So I think it is in character that he'd be the first to reach a stage of "I'm hurt but she's still family and we should try to fix this by talking to her" before Dean does. I also don't think he's working with the BMoL because of a sudden belief in their system, but rather to protect Mary from a dangerous situation. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Hi @ILoveReading,

Thanks for responding and sharing your thoughts with me :) . I actually plan to start a full show rewatch soon, and when I reach season seven I'll try to watch with a new perspective and look out for those things you mention. 

In regards to that quote you mentioned, I would need to google to confirm it, but I'm fairly certain Jensen revealed at a con he was the one who recommended to Sera they cut the line out rather than something she initiated. 

Something else, and I know its something the writers didn't plan, but something I noticed.  Dean's drinking got worse after Cas died and it seemed to stop after episode 18.  Ironically he was the only one sober during the fight with the drunk ghost.   Cas coming back into his life seemed to be a turning point to Dean getting back on track.

 

12 minutes ago, rue721 said:

 

I think it's up to Dean (not Sam) how much he wants Mary to know, or whether he wants his private business talked about with her at all. If Sam wants to open up to Mary about himself, that's different. But he doesn't have the right to crack Dean open for her.

 

I don't mean a scene were Sam gives a play by play of everything.  More just a  line or two.  Not these exact words but something like,

"Cut Dean some slack mom.  There's times in the past family hasn't been there for him."  It explains Dean's mindset without really betraying any confidences. 

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Something else, and I know its something the writers didn't plan, but something I noticed.  Dean's drinking got worse after Cas died and it seemed to stop after episode 18.  Ironically he was the only one sober during the fight with the drunk ghost.   Cas coming back into his life seemed to be a turning point to Dean getting back on track..

Hmm, it's been a while since I watched, so I could be wrong, but honestly I'd link that improvement more to Sam's improved mental health. I wouldn't really say Castiel was back in their lives at this point. He was stuck in a mental hospital and for all they knew that could have been permanent. 

[Wayward Son]

Quote

First of all, when asked whether Dean had forgiven Castiel for breaking Sam’s wall, Ackles replied with a definitive “No,” and added that Dean would not forgive Castiel this season. “Maybe next year, we’ll have to see.”

Dean’s lack of forgiveness made the trench coat scene difficult for the actors. “I believe that Misha said something along the lines of ‘This is the most un-manly scene this show has ever filmed,'” Ackles says. “Well, he said ‘gay,’ I’m just trying to be a little PC. There was a certain line that we couldn’t get past, it was so out of character and horrible.”

The line, which was included in promotional clips but cut out of the actual episode, was “Part of me always believed that you’d come back.”

“There was stuff that was written in that scene that was really tough to say,” Collins adds. The actors admit that they didn’t make it easy on Robert Singer, the executive producer who wore the director’s hat for that particular episode. 

“We proceeded to spend the next hour and a half trying to figure it out,” Ackles says. “The three of us tried to put our minds together on set to say ‘How can we change this around to make it more believable between these two characters?'” Ackles noted that it was written by showrunner Sera Gamble. “Which would make sense, because, you know… she’s a girl,” he joked.

@catrox14 @ILoveReading

ETA: http://screenertv.com/news-features/supernatural-have-dean-and-castiel-been-acting-out-of-character/

There's a transcript from an interview with Jensen at the time so I'm afraid the blame lies with him, Misha and Bob Singer. 

Personal note: I'm also trying hard not to enter bitterness territory by ranting on how insulting I find the idea that gay = unmanly. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Wayward Son
Forgot to include source

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Personal note: I'm also trying hard not to enter bitterness territory by ranting on how insulting I find the idea that gay = unmanly. 

Yeah, not cool

[Mick Lady]

15 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Dean’s lack of forgiveness made the trench coat scene difficult for the actors. “I believe that Misha said something along the lines of ‘This is the most un-manly scene this show has ever filmed,'” Ackles says. “Well, he said ‘gay,’ I’m just trying to be a little PC. There was a certain line that we couldn’t get past, it was so out of character and horrible.”

I'm sorry, this just sucks! Mick is the most "manly" man I have ever known, and he's also the most sentimental. This whole thing pisses me off to no end! I've always seen Dean with a lot more depth than this.

Bitterness thread, watch out!

[Aeryn13]

Quote

There's a transcript from an interview with Jensen at the time so I'm afraid the blame lies with him, Misha and Bob Singer. 

I think ultimately responsibility is with Bob Singer because he had the final say on the matter. I know actors sometimes hate certain lines or scenes and occassionally the director will allow them to change it but at the end of the day he says when that is. I remember a story where Sarah Michelle Gellar broke down in tears because Joss Whedon wouldn`t budge on something. And he probably didn`t want to upset his star but in that instance, he played the power card. Singer likely didn`t feel passionately enough about the written lines either or both Misha and Jensen could have screamed till they were blue in the faces and would have still ended up doing the scene as written. They are professional enough to know when a director won`t budge.

As for Dean apparently going drinking in the clip, I wouldn`t think too much of it. The brotherly tiff is likely the easiest reason Berens thought of getting Dean out of the way for the hunt (and Jensen out of the bulk of the episode) with the BMOL. And "I need drinks" is an easy shorthand for "I`m going off to be upset" on TV. They haven`t harped on any hard drinking this Season - which I like - and it`s probably gonna stay that way.

A lot will probably depend on how the vamp hunt ends. Sure, it goes pear-shaped but if the BMOL, Mary and Sam turn up victorious anyway, they won`t look in the wrong. If they manage to kill the Alpha Vamp, it will present even more like a big win. What`s a little hitch along the ride?

That is IMO what has me worried Dean is going to end up apologizing. Because he doubted the ever-great BMOL, all-holy-Mary in her wisdom and the peace-making Sam who picked the "right side" when Dean was too stubborn to.     

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think ultimately responsibility is with Bob Singer because he had the final say on the matter. I know actors sometimes hate certain lines or scenes and occassionally the director will allow them to change it but at the end of the day he says when that is. I remember a story where Sarah Michelle Gellar broke down in tears because Joss Whedon wouldn`t budge on something. And he probably didn`t want to upset his star but in that instance, he played the power card. Singer likely didn`t feel passionately enough about the written lines either or both Misha and Jensen could have screamed till they were blue in the faces and would have still ended up doing the scene as written. They are professional enough to know when a director won`t budge.

As for Dean apparently going drinking in the clip, I wouldn`t think too much of it. The brotherly tiff is likely the easiest reason Berens thought of getting Dean out of the way for the hunt (and Jensen out of the bulk of the episode) with the BMOL. And "I need drinks" is an easy shorthand for "I`m going off to be upset" on TV. They haven`t harped on any hard drinking this Season - which I like - and it`s probably gonna stay that way.

I should clarify that I actually agree with Jensen, Misha and Bob Singer on this. I used the word blame more because @ILoveReading mentioned they dislike the fact it was taken out.  

The reason I agree is that in my opinion Dean was far, far away from forgiving Castiel. He was not ready to be remotely emotionally vulnerable at that point. In fact I would argue he was being quite manipulative in this scene. Prior to this he had very much empathised his anger with Cas and inability to "get over it". It was only when they were at risk of Cas leaving before he could heal Sam that Dean took a more soft approach. 

For me Dean is a man of action not words and feelings. What I mean by that is that is that in my opinion it is not enough to express remorse for your mistakes. You need to actively strive to make up for them. That is why he only began to forgive Castiel when he took the active step of deciding to help them deal with Dick. 

The only part of this interview that I object to is the implication that in Jensen's mind gay equates to unmanly. I'm also not overly keen on what was essentially "what do you expect she's a woman", but I can see that at least was a joke and take it in the spirit it was intended. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The only part of this interview that I object to is the implication that in Jensen's mind gay equates to unmanly.

What I got from the interview was that Misha said something like "wow, that scene is so gay" and it wasn`t meant to be nice, it was meant to be "unmanly". Because guys sometimes talk like this. And Jensen wanted to PC it up a bit but apparently ìt`s still offensive to enough people.

Personally, I don`t think they meant that much by it. I`m a woman and all my colleagues are women but we will throw around stuff like "don`t be such a girl". I know that in essence it`s an insult to women so we kinda insult ourselves but, honestly, we don`t take it that seriously, its just a rib for us.

This scene, the actors probably thought "come on, the guys wouldn`t`say that stuff." Which, fair enough.     

[Wayward Son]

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

What I got from the interview was that Misha said something like "wow, that scene is so gay" and it wasn`t meant to be nice, it was meant to be "unmanly". Because guys sometimes talk like this. And Jensen wanted to PC it up a bit but apparently ìt`s still offensive to enough people.

Personally, I don`t think they meant that much by it. I`m a woman and all my colleagues are women but we will throw around stuff like "don`t be such a girl". I know that in essence it`s an insult to women so we kinda insult ourselves but, honestly, we don`t take it that seriously, its just a rib for us.

This scene, the actors probably thought "come on, the guys wouldn`t`say that stuff." Which, fair enough.     

I'm taking this to bitterness. 

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The only part of this interview that I object to is the implication that in Jensen's mind gay equates to unmanly. I'm also not overly keen on what was essentially "what do you expect she's a woman", but I can see that at least was a joke and take it in the spirit it was intended. 

I think him saying about Sera being a girl was that Sera wrote that scene as basically a romantic reunion and all the guys thought it read too romantic for the situation.

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think him saying about Sera being a girl was that Sera wrote that scene as basically a romantic reunion and all the guys thought it read too romantic for the situation.

Yeah, I didn't really mind that and took it as a joke :) . The thing that has always annoyed me was the gay remark and I've just responded to Aeryn about that over in bitterness :) 

[Geordiegirl1967]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

INTERESTING that Dean is remarking on "Sam playing peacemaker".  It IS a "pot" meet "kettle" moment given Deans' role for probably a decade while they were growing up.  But I like that Sam's the one working for the peace.  Just a handful of years ago we had the 'Sam doesn't want to hunt' S8 trauma.  We are hell and gone from that state.  Sam is fighting for his family.  And I'm glad to see him step up to that role.  It's another subtle way of showing growth.  Centuries ago in S1, Sam said he and Dean didn't see family the same way.  Well, that's no longer true.  And family is more than just Dean.  And Dean knows this.  He's just PissedOff McPisseserson. 

You are taking a 'glass half full' approach to this clip. Wish I could see it the same but I don't. I actually agree with Dean. Sam needs to pick a side and it needs to be Dean's - even if he doesn't agree with him.

I particularly don't agree with the bit I've bolded. Mary is technically family but for them family means Dean and Sam a united front against all comers. There are others they care about; Mary obviously, Jodie, Cas. But first and foremost it is them as a team. Sam should be with Dean and have his back in the disagreement with Mary, not least because Dean is right. She was WAY out of line to work with the BMOL.

I am dreading this ep. I know it will be Dean-lite because of his twins coming, but there is a way of doing that without creating a stupid ooc rift between the brothers. Dean could go missing on a hunt for example. Sam and Mary and / or Cas go looking for him. Nothing wrong with that. Jensen gets to be with his family. We get to watch a good ep of the show that puts the brothers bond front and centre even when one of them isn't on screen. It is perfectly possible to do that without creating pointless division. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I still don't like it, and I'm afraid that it might not be just that either. If, for example, Dean isn't there and doesn't see the BMoL screw up, and Mary somehow talks Sam into giving the BMoL another chance with something like "Just don't tell Dean... yet," and this turns into more "secrets and lies" angst where Dean can - rightfully - accuse Sam of going behind his back and/or choosing Mary over him, I'll be annoyed.

I will be beyond annoyed. I will be furious! I have had my issues with the quality of this season, but the saving grace for me has been that, so far, Dabb has avoided going all Carver on us i.e. he hasn't constantly mined the brothers-in-conflict seam to create ooc drama that undermines the premise of the show and the bond between the brothers. After 3 years of that nonsense I was glad to see the back of him. To date Dabb has kept the brothers on the same page, even though he hasn't put much writing effort or screen time into their relationship / chemistry. If Dabb is going down the bro conflict rabbit hole I will be seriously p****d. Dean will have every right to be angry with Sam if Sam sides with Mary behind his back. But that is what it looks like from the clips. 

Yep - dreading it!!

[Aeryn13]

Interview with Samantha Smith

No a fan of this. Too much "Mary is so great and wonderful and so brave doing what she does." It doesn`t hurt if an actor acknowledges their character is less than perfect. Jensen does it too much IMO but others don`t do it enough.

Also not buying what she is selling re: Mary does it all and sacrifices so much, ultimately for love of her children. They - the writers and she as an actor - didn`t manage to sell me on her FEELING that great love for them. So, sorry, but her potentially ruining relationships with her sons doesn`t feel like such a big sacrifice when she never made even the slightest effort to build said relationships in the first place.

Maybe if she did, if she tried to at least get to know them, I could see this "I want to make the world perfect for them," And pulling the "that`s the job of a parent" card? Please. A parent would also probably have some interest in their kids.    

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

In regards to that quote you mentioned, I would need to google to confirm it, but I'm fairly certain Jensen revealed at a con he was the one who recommended to Sera they cut the line out rather than something she initiated.

ETA: think his reasoning was that it was a little too emotionally revealing for Dean at that point. I actually find myself agreeing imo he was still more angry and bitter towards Cas at that point than therefore not likely to display vulnerability. 

Yes he did push to drop the line. In fact he wasn't happy with that whole scene. I think his actual reason was that he thought it sounded too overwrought and 'girly' (I seem to remember he got some stick for using that term - anyone else recall?). Jensen is not a Destiel fan at all (he said at a recent con that 'Destiel doesn't exist') and he will argue where he feels they are playing on that too much. Good for him. He knows Dean better than any of the writers.

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Yes he did push to drop the line. In fact he wasn't happy with that whole scene. I think his actual reason was that he thought it sounded too overwrought and 'girly' (I seem to remember he got some stick for using that term - anyone else recall?). Jensen is not a Destiel fan at all (he said at a recent con that 'Destiel doesn't exist') and he will argue where he feels they are playing on that too much. Good for him. He knows Dean better than any of the writers.

I addressed this in bitterness as I'm one of those who took offence to his remark. I also posted my reasons for agreeing with the removal of the line in this post 

My disapproval has nothing to do with Dean!Cas / Destiel shipping.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Mick Lady]

4 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Yes he did push to drop the line. In fact he wasn't happy with that whole scene. I think his actual reason was that he thought it sounded too overwrought and 'girly' (I seem to remember he got some stick for using that term - anyone else recall?). Jensen is not a Destiel fan at all (he said at a recent con that 'Destiel doesn't exist') and he will argue where he feels they are playing on that too much. Good for him. He knows Dean better than any of the writers.

I get Jensen for feeling this way, I honestly do. I've said it before, Mick's a biker, a 1% but he never patched. When one of his best Bros died, he buried him with a guitar of Mick's he loved. Mick's friendships are very deep, and I don't understand why some people can't get that straight guys can love their friends very deeply.

[Geordiegirl1967]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They - the writers and she as an actor - didn`t manage to sell me on her FEELING that great love for them. So, sorry, but her potentially ruining relationships with her sons doesn`t feel like such a big sacrifice when she never made even the slightest effort to build said relationships in the first place.

I agree. But this is a Dabb issue for me. He doesn't put enough effort into writing for the relationships. Sam and Dean have barely had any decent character / bonding moments even when the story was screaming for them. Like when Sam was missing and then rescued at the start of the season. We saw nowhere near enough fear / worry from Dean nor enough urgency. We saw almost no grief from Sam when he thought Dean was dead or reaction from him when he saw he was alive. And of course almost no appropriate reaction when they were reunited; no hug, no relief. Another opportunity went begging in the ep where they escaped from prison; no reaction when they saw each other again, no emotional conversation about who was going to die in their bargain etc etc. 

Similarly with Mary almost no effort has been put into building her relationship with her sons as adults. It is all just assumed. Well that doesn't work as a viewer. You need to show me that process or else we don't believe it nor care.

Quote

In fact, she has Sam come [on a hunt]. She wants to show him what they’re doing and why she thinks it might be the right way to go.

And this has just confirmed my worst fears! A rift between Sam and Dean brought about by Sam siding with her over his brother to whom he owes everything, not least his absolute loyalty! Seems Dabb, like Carver before him, just can't resist some brotherly conflict. I would be more able to accept this if we had seen ANY effort put into to showcasing the positive side of their bond; their love, their fear of losing each other, how close they are.

[Mick Lady]

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Interview with Samantha Smith

No a fan of this. Too much "Mary is so great and wonderful and so brave doing what she does." It doesn`t hurt if an actor acknowledges their character is less than perfect. Jensen does it too much IMO but others don`t do it enough.

Also not buying what she is selling re: Mary does it all and sacrifices so much, ultimately for love of her children. They - the writers and she as an actor - didn`t manage to sell me on her FEELING that great love for them. So, sorry, but her potentially ruining relationships with her sons doesn`t feel like such a big sacrifice when she never made even the slightest effort to build said relationships in the first place.

Maybe if she did, if she tried to at least get to know them, I could see this "I want to make the world perfect for them," And pulling the "that`s the job of a parent" card? Please. A parent would also probably have some interest in their kids.    

Spot on Aeryn13! Mary makes no effort to get to know her sons, and they're NOT BOYS! They're grown men, and can take care of themselves. Now she'd going to drive a wedge between them.

[Geordiegirl1967]

5 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I've said it before, Mick's a biker, a 1% but he never patched. When one of his best Bros died, he buried him with a guitar of Mick's he loved. Mick's friendships are very deep, and I don't understand why some people can't get that straight guys can love their friends very deeply.

Am I missing something? Who is Mick?

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I get Jensen for feeling this way, I honestly do. I've said it before, Mick's a biker, a 1% but he never patched. When one of his best Bros died, he buried him with a guitar of Mick's he loved. Mick's friendships are very deep, and I don't understand why some people can't get that straight guys can love their friends very deeply.

That's exactly it! I know shippers have made ridiculous drama over the years, but in this instance it had nothing to do with shipping. 

Many people were insulted by the implication that gay = unmanly. Some people who are gay have had to face such stereotypes all their lives and therefore are very hurt to read about a celebrity expressing this viewpoint.

Jensen (and possibly Misha - without him there to clarify we don't know what he meant when he used the term) could have just as easily said "we felt this was too emotional and not true to Dean at this stage". Their point is made without being insulting to homosexuals. 

[Mick Lady]

1 minute ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Am I missing something? Who is Mick?

Sorry, my husband! Most here know this, and I forget some don't. My bad!

He's my avatar.

[catrox14]

Res

17 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Yes he did push to drop the line. In fact he wasn't happy with that whole scene. I think his actual reason was that he thought it sounded too overwrought and 'girly' (I seem to remember he got some stick for using that term - anyone else recall?). Jensen is not a Destiel fan at all (he said at a recent con that 'Destiel doesn't exist') and he will argue where he feels they are playing on that too much. Good for him. He knows Dean better than any of the writers.

I don't understand what Destiel has to do with the conversation whatsoever.  Nobody mentioned Destiel at all.

This was about how Jensen and Misha didn't think Dean and Cas would say the words that Sera wrote, to each other. They opted to alter it to make it more in what they both figured their characters would say. Sera wrote it in a way that both Jensen and Misha thought was overly emotional or sappy. This isn't a shipping thing.

[Geordiegirl1967]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand what Destiel has to do with the conversation whatsoever.  Nobody mentioned Destiel at all.

This was about how Jensen and Misha didn't think Dean and Cas would say the words that Sera wrote, to each other. They opted to alter it to make it more in what they both figured their characters would say. Sera wrote it in a way that both Jensen and Misha thought was overly emotional or sappy. This isn't a shipping thing.

Sorry but I think this is naive. Of COURSE it is was a 'shipping thing'. Jensen knows that there is a passionate group of fans who desperately want to see Dean and Cas in an onscreen romantic relationship, and that they they will grasp at the teeniest of straws in their efforts to prove that their ship exists. He doesn't/didn't want to tease them or give them any more ammunition to believe something he isn't putting across in his performance and doesn't believe is real. At the time this story broke the clear implication was that this was the reason for Jensen's discomfort. He thought the scene was written too romantically, like a lovers tiff/reunion. He was not happy about that because he doesn't believe in that interpretation. 

When this furore broke it was absolutely about shipping with the Destiel fans furious the line was cut and angry with Jensen for how he described it (as 'girly'). While non shippers were all in favour of the line being cut. 

There is a very large Destiel-shaped elephant in this room. All I was doing was pointing it out. 

17 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Sorry, my husband! Most here know this, and I forget some don't. My bad!

Thanks. Sorry I am new. I still need to get to know everyone.

[catrox14]

moved to bitterness thread

sorry folks

Edited March 2, 2017 by catrox14
Moved response to bitterness thread. sorry

[SueB]

1) Can we move the Dean/Cas reunion discussion to All Seasons or Bitterness?  I'm struggling to see the connection with the spoilers and that link was from 2012.

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

General observation about the brothers I feel is relevant to the discussion about Sam willingness to work with the BMoL. 

In my opinion the brothers are interesting contrasts to one another. 

IMO Dean is the quickest to grow attached to people. Sam is much more reserved and it takes more to get him to let you in. On the other hand, if someone does them wrong Sam is far quicker to forgive than Dean. I think Sam's ability to forgive is rooted in his own self esteem issues. Sam has never truly forgiven him for what he did in season four and then his decision between seasons seven and eight. I think it's natural he'd extend the forgiveness Dean gave him to others who have hurt him (Mary and Cas).

So I think it is in character that he'd be the first to reach a stage of "I'm hurt but she's still family and we should try to fix this by talking to her" before Dean does. I also don't think he's working with the BMoL because of a sudden belief in their system, but rather to protect Mary from a dangerous situation. 

2) I agree that Sam is both more reserved and quicker to forgive because he was so grateful that people forgave him. But I also think Sam is a master of  compartmentalization.  Once he's rationalized something, he compartments away the bits that don't fit (like horrific betrayal) so that it doesn't interfere with what he's doing.  He went to extremes in Mystery Spot.  And again, to some extent, in S8 by dropping hunting.  Those were not the best coping mechanisms for those situations BUT, when used appropriately the ability to compartmentalize is very useful.  It helps him "work now, argue later".  I wonder if he developed that because he was forced to do stuff he didn't want as a child and he pushed down his anger and got through it, then blew up later.  Anyway, I think the ability to compartmentalize helps him work with those he has issues with.

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

You are taking a 'glass half full' approach to this clip. Wish I could see it the same but I don't. I actually agree with Dean. Sam needs to pick a side and it needs to be Dean's - even if he doesn't agree with him.

3) Hi, I'm SueB. I'm the resident optimist.  You need to pulled off a ledge -- I'll give you the juicy rationalization to do so.  You want to rant... I'll listen patiently (unless you've repeated the same thing more times than I can bear) and offer sympathy.  You see the glass as half empty, I'll generally explain why it's a LEAST half full. That's just how I roll.

4) The Sam Smith interview.  To be fair, under the "tell" versus "show", they DID have a line by Ketch that said she THINKS she's working with the BMoL to protect her boys but she's really doing it because she likes the thrill of the hunt.  So, the show has "told" us by one, somewhat unreliable witness, that this is Mary's reasoning.  I also think that they've given hints in this direction, but Mary has not come out and explained herself to her boys.  And she really needs to.  She can't simultaneously say she's doing it for their own good and not tell them her motivation.  They are either adults or not in her mind.  If they are adults, she needs to explain.  "This is the better way" is inadequate explanation.  BUT, I can see Sam Smith believing this is Mary's motivation -- I saw that as well and have just been waiting for it to come to light.  Unfortunately, it HASN'T come to light. SO, either we get more of this in EP 14 (which this interview is prep for) OR, it's a true storytelling failure IMO.  It's bad enough we question her motives but if this upcoming epsiode doesn't make it clear, than that's a problem.  Bottom line: I see where she's getting the motivation from but hints are not enough, we need a scene with the boys that spells it out.  

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

1) Can we move the Dean/Cas reunion discussion to All Seasons or Bitterness?  I'm struggling to see the connection with the spoilers and that link was from 2012.

2) I agree that Sam is both more reserved and quicker to forgive because he was so grateful that people forgave him. But I also think Sam is a master of  compartmentalization.  Once he's rationalized something, he compartments away the bits that don't fit (like horrific betrayal) so that it doesn't interfere with what he's doing.  He went to extremes in Mystery Spot.  And again, to some extent, in S8 by dropping hunting.  Those were not the best coping mechanisms for those situations BUT, when used appropriately the ability to compartmentalize is very useful.  It helps him "work now, argue later".  I wonder if he developed that because he was forced to do stuff he didn't want as a child and he pushed down his anger and got through it, then blew up later.  Anyway, I think the ability to compartmentalize helps him work with those he has issues with.

3) Hi, I'm SueB. I'm the resident optimist.  You need to pulled off a ledge -- I'll give you the juicy rationalization to do so.  You want to rant... I'll listen patiently (unless you've repeated the same thing more times than I can bear) and offer sympathy.  You see the glass as half empty, I'll generally explain why it's a LEAST half full. That's just how I roll.

4) The Sam Smith interview.  To be fair, under the "tell" versus "show", they DID have a line by Ketch that said she THINKS she's working with the BMoL to protect her boys but she's really doing it because she likes the thrill of the hunt.  So, the show has "told" us by one, somewhat unreliable witness, that this is Mary's reasoning.  I also think that they've given hints in this direction, but Mary has not come out and explained herself to her boys.  And she really needs to.  She can't simultaneously say she's doing it for their own good and not tell them her motivation.  They are either adults or not in her mind.  If they are adults, she needs to explain.  "This is the better way" is inadequate explanation.  BUT, I can see Sam Smith believing this is Mary's motivation -- I saw that as well and have just been waiting for it to come to light.  Unfortunately, it HASN'T come to light. SO, either we get more of this in EP 14 (which this interview is prep for) OR, it's a true storytelling failure IMO.  It's bad enough we question her motives but if this upcoming epsiode doesn't make it clear, than that's a problem.  Bottom line: I see where she's getting the motivation from but hints are not enough, we need a scene with the boys that spells it out.  

1) No problem Sue. I think I'm pretty much done with that topic anyway :) . Anything else I'll post in all episodes or bitterness as appropriate <3 

2. I hadn't thought of it in that way, but you're right Sam's ability to compartmentalise also explains his ability to forgive more easily :)

[Geordiegirl1967]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

3) Hi, I'm SueB. I'm the resident optimist.  You need to pulled off a ledge -- I'll give you the juicy rationalization to do so.  You want to rant... I'll listen patiently (unless you've repeated the same thing more times than I can bear) and offer sympathy.  You see the glass as half empty, I'll generally explain why it's a LEAST half full. That's just how I roll.

I am usually pretty optimistic and positive about the show but pointless, ooc bro angst for the sake of it is my hot button issue. After being burned and disappointed so many times particularly during Carver's reign I am hyper sensitive to it. I will try to climb back in through the window ;-)

6 hours ago, SueB said:

 I also think that they've given hints in this direction, but Mary has not come out and explained herself to her boys.  And she really needs to.  She can't simultaneously say she's doing it for their own good and not tell them her motivation.  They are either adults or not in her mind.  If they are adults, she needs to explain.

I agree. After her bombshell last week we see the conversation continuing though we don't know what they are saying. I assumed she had had ample opportunity then to say the obvious i.e. she needs to say 'It breaks my heart to see how much you have had to give up and have suffered due to the hunting life. I see the BMOL as the only viable option that could free you, give you peace and keep you safe. All parents want to protect their children. I failed you when you were kids. This is my way of making up for that now.'

Would that be so hard? If she hasn't done this then I don't know what she was saying to them when she came clean, or why she wouldn't explain it in this way.

On a broader note I think the writers are taking some pretty extreme liberties with Mary's character on the excuse of 'Dean's memories were idealised'. We have more than Dean's memories to go on. We have met Mary in various time travel eps. She was a tough, brave, but sweet lady who was VERY reluctantly brought up in the hunting life and who was determined to leave it behind and raise a family without the taint and danger hunting brings. Also she was pretty young when she met John and gave it up. I didn't get the 'best hunter I have ever seen' vibe from her. Plus back then they didn't know about or encounter demons or angels so how super duper could she have been? She could cook (she was preparing a home cooked meal for her and John in one ep and it seemed like a regular thing) and wanted to do the normal housewife things. For her to suddenly be a 'bringing home fast food, can't boil an egg' woman / mother is odd to say the least. Her character seems like a retcon and, while I get the dramatic reason for it (making them a packed lunch to take on their hunting trips doesn't make for thrilling TV) I am not sure I buy it.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Based on the latest clip, here's my prediction.  (wish I could be as optimistic as @SueB, but I'm more of a realist. )  

• Sam turning over the phone when Dean walked in - means he's already been in contact with Mary, despite the 'frozen her out for days' line.  Maybe already even agreed to meet up with her to talk - or go on that hunt.  So the secrets and lies that @AwesomO4000 and others (including me) didn't want to see?  Too late.  Sorry about our luck.
• Hunt goes bad.  Personally, I hope Sam can pull it out without Dean coming to rescue them.  Not going to hold my breath for that though.  And, oh if by some miracle he manages to save himself and Mary, I'm sure there will be plenty of disparaging "SuperSam comments to take the shine off the moment.
• The 'pick a side' line from Dean - Sam does, at least initially, and it's Mary's.  (Confirmed by him going on a hunt with her.)  See the previous bullet point.  
• And finally - for those worrying about Dean having to apologize about not siding with Mary and the HMSSuckbags: see the three previous bullet points. (To recap: Sam's lying, he picks the wrong side, hunt goes bad.)  Dean's not going to have to apologize.  I'm sure Sam will need to though.  

[auntvi]

29 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

To recap: Sam's lying, he picks the wrong side, hunt goes bad.)  Dean's not going to have to apologize.  I'm sure Sam will need to though.  

For the sake of my blood pressure, I hope it's not a blame Sam night, but I expect you're right.

[Mick Lady]

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Thanks. Sorry I am new. I still need to get to know everyone.

Well welcome Geordiegirl!

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Hi, I'm SueB. I'm the resident optimist.

The understatement of the year!

[Diane]

32 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Well welcome Geordiegirl!

The understatement of the year!

But that's why we love @SueB!

Edited March 2, 2017 by Diane

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, rue721 said:

UO but I don't want to see this.

I think it's up to Dean (not Sam) how much he wants Mary to know, or whether he wants his private business talked about with her at all. If Sam wants to open up to Mary about himself, that's different. But he doesn't have the right to crack Dean open for her.

IMO, Mary really hasn't done a whole lot to earn Dean's trust (or Sam's, or anybody's), and if Dean doesn't want to spill his guts to her right now, that's fair enough. I don't think it's really her shit to know (yet) IMO.

If/when Mary decides to open up to Dean and/or Sam, IMO that would be a sign that she's becoming more trustworthy and maybe it's time for one or both of the boys to start reciprocating. But until then...

Very true. Mary has barely spent time with her sons and prefers to hunt, read John's journal and have time to herself instead of getting to know the men that her babies have become. She's blood but she hasn't done anything so far to prove that she's family.

[rue721]

These are from Samantha Smith's interview:

Quote

She’s making decisions that she, in her heart, knows are the right thing — or at least she thinks they are — and she knows they’re not going to be popular decisions, but she doesn’t see any other way. Sometimes, as a parent, that’s your job. So from Mary’s perspective, she’s doing what she can, even if her kids don’t like it. But as far as the boys are concerned, they’re probably a little disillusioned. John, as you said, got a lot of flak because he abandoned them a lot, et cetera. Now here’s the difference: The boys are now in their thirties. When John was doing it, they were children. In Mary’s defense, that would be a differentiation to make. [Laughs]

I dunno, I think that wildly reckless, secretive, obstinate, and self-righteous behavior is pretty irritating coming from either John or Mary, and it's not necessarily easier for adults to deal with than it is for children to. I mean, maybe somewhat easier, because EVERYTHING is easier for adults to deal with than it is for children. But it's not like a loved one running off to his or her own likely death, while making deals with the devil and expecting gratitude for that "sacrifice" while they're at it, isn't suddenly easy behavior to deal with once you hit 30+ y/o!

I don't really have any opinion about Mary's abilities as a parent, per se, but TBH I think that she is currently acting like a bit of an idiot and an asshole just in general (mostly because of her collusion with the BMOL). The only reason I think what she's doing is ultimately forgivable and not necessarily a big deal in the long term is *because* she's their mother. If she were just some rando, I'd be like, "Who is this idiot? She's useless. Sam and Dean better wise up and tell her to fuck off." But since she's Sam and Dean's mom, I assume that's not an option -- and she's also got a lot more chances and a lot more leeway with me. I would also think she's got pretty much infinite chances and infinite leeway with them...although maybe if she weren't their mom and and if she believed that they might turn on her, she would be a little more careful and behave a little better, actually!

Quote

I would argue that he was doing that for his own agenda, whereas Mary’s keeping things to herself, ideally, to protect her boys. Maybe that is a misguided idea, and obviously, in Episode 12, it put them in danger. But the goal and the intention is always to help them, to keep them safe, to give them a life away from hunting and danger.

This is strange to me, because we have not actually (yet) seen anything on the screen that shows that Mary isn't working her own angle. 

And if she isn't work an angle, her actions actually make LESS sense to me? She's being ridiculously naive regarding the BMOL -- and I guess what SS said in this interview means that Mary is meant to just be buying everything they're selling, not working an angle. Bleh, that's so infuriatingly stupid.

I also find it bizarrely lacking in compassion for her to be willing to work with the BMOL after she saw what they did to Sam. Not even talking logic here -- it was just so sad to see him hear that news! It's weird to me that she can do that to him and really not seem to feel anything much about it? And IMO it's even worse if she genuinely believes (aka, is telling herself) that she's doing it for his/their own good. I dunno, the attitude of "yeah, I'm hurting you -- but you should APPRECIATE IT, this is ALL FOR YOU" really bothers me. Like, are they supposed to be greatful that she's being callous and hurtful? In her head, is the resistance that she's facing actually proof that she's doing the right thing? (Because of some kind of assumption that "doing the right thing isn't easy," I mean).

Anyway, I think Mary is pretty fascinating and I wish the show would give us more insight into what's going on with her! But maybe that is still to come.

Edited March 2, 2017 by rue721

[7kstar]

3 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

Mick's friendships are very deep, and I don't understand why some people can't get that straight guys can love their friends very deeply.

This is an age old issue.  Guys aren't supposed to be emotional and girls are.  Some writers want to write gay characters and others will write straight with deep relationships.  I think for me it is the problem of those that write get stuck in a mindset and don't see other possibilities.  I've also seen women write very girly for guys and not realize that they've done so.  I know when I write at times I have to check to see if the lines sound like something a guy would say or oops me bad it's sounds like a girl. 

Jensen is protective and unless a director can justify the direction, I think he will fight a direction he doesn't believe in.

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, shang yiet said:

And can Sam please stop playing peacemaker? It's really dull to watch. I'd rather he focuses more on his own feelings than trying to keep the peace.

I agree that Sam has been too complacent with everything that has happened. The only inkling that we got that he was affected by anything that's happened to him this season was the "broken ribs and burnt feet"comment. I want to see him express some actual emotion about what is going on around him.

[catrox14]

Re Mary

Quote

She’s making decisions that she, in her heart, knows are the right thing — or at least she thinks they are — and she knows they’re not going to be popular decisions, but she doesn’t see any other way. Sometimes, as a parent, that’s your job. So from Mary’s perspective, she’s doing what she can, even if her kids don’t like it. But as far as the boys are concerned, they’re probably a little disillusioned. John, as you said, got a lot of flak because he abandoned them a lot, et cetera. Now here’s the difference: The boys are now in their thirties. When John was doing it, they were children. In Mary’s defense, that would be a differentiation to make. [Laughs]

Nope, piss off with that, Mary.

Mary has not been around them and she might be their birth mother, but these are grown ass men who she has no business making decisions for if they able to make their own decisions. I mean it's not like they are on life support or something.  That is a bullshit excuse for her lying.

Dean made a decision for Sam in s9 because Sam was dying. Literally dying. Was it a great decision? Nope. he probably should have let Sam die but of course he wasn't going to do that.

But Mary has literally had all the time to tell her boys she's going along with these assholes that tortured one son and tried to kill the othe

If the BMoL have threatened the boys life and that's why she is doing what she is, she STILL owes it to them to give them a clue they are on the hot seat.

That actually makes me like Mary so much less. Sigh

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

I also find it bizarrely lacking in compassion for her to be willing to work with the BMOL after she saw what they did to Sam. Not even talking logic here -- it was just so sad to see him hear that news!

The only reason I think what she's doing is ultimately forgivable and not necessarily a big deal in the long term is *because* she's their mother. If she were just some rando, I'd be like, "Who is this idiot? She's useless. Sam and Dean better wise up and tell her to fuck off." But since she's Sam and Dean's mom, I assume that's not an option -- and she's also got a lot more chances and a lot more leeway with me. I would also think she's got pretty much infinite chances and infinite leeway with them...although maybe if she weren't their mom and and if she believed that they might turn on her, she would be a little more careful and behave a little better, actually!

From my viewpoint I was just so happy to see Sam and Dean have their mother back after all of the irreconcilable differences with their father that I've been hoping that Mary will be shown to be cut from a different mold and not another source of angst that John has become over the course of the series when he's referred to. Even though they are adults and have become their own men they're also so about family that I want to see this to work out for them.

[rue721]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't mean a scene were Sam gives a play by play of everything.  More just a  line or two.  Not these exact words but something like,

"Cut Dean some slack mom.  There's times in the past family hasn't been there for him."  It explains Dean's mindset without really betraying any confidences. 

OK, I hear that.

I think it would still be weird for Sam to try to appeal to Mary's pity or mercy on Dean's behalf, though, seeing as Sam's first response when she told him about the BMOL collusion was to do that same thing in a very concrete way on his own behalf (by being like, "uh, they broke my fucking ribs" [paraphrase!]) and failed to get any traction with Mary when he did it. It doesn't seem like appeals to pity really get anywhere with her.

And I also think that she really hasn't earned any vulnerability or confidences from them anyway. Even confidences as simple as "oh yeah, XYZ hurt." I mean, at this point she hasn't even proven that she can be trusted not to use vulnerabilities or confidences against them. Not that she has proven she WOULD, either. But my point is basically that either/both of the Winchesters being a little emotionally wary around her is 100% fine with me, and I don't really want to see one of them exposing the other's underbelly to her at all. YMMV!

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I agree. But this is a Dabb issue for me. He doesn't put enough effort into writing for the relationships. Sam and Dean have barely had any decent character / bonding moments even when the story was screaming for them. Like when Sam was missing and then rescued at the start of the season. We saw nowhere near enough fear / worry from Dean nor enough urgency. We saw almost no grief from Sam when he thought Dean was dead or reaction from him when he saw he was alive. And of course almost no appropriate reaction when they were reunited; no hug, no relief. Another opportunity went begging in the ep where they escaped from prison; no reaction when they saw each other again, no emotional conversation about who was going to die in their bargain etc etc. 

Similarly with Mary almost no effort has been put into building her relationship with her sons as adults. It is all just assumed. Well that doesn't work as a viewer. You need to show me that process or else we don't believe it nor care.

And this has just confirmed my worst fears! A rift between Sam and Dean brought about by Sam siding with her over his brother to whom he owes everything, not least his absolute loyalty! Seems Dabb, like Carver before him, just can't resist some brotherly conflict. I would be more able to accept this if we had seen ANY effort put into to showcasing the positive side of their bond; their love, their fear of losing each other, how close they are.

This entire post is spot on. I'll just add that Sam and Dean may have had less angsty drama between them when compared to previous seasons but they have ignored plenty of potential brother moments that would have been appreciated.

[rue721]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

From my viewpoint I was just so happy to see Sam and Dean have their mother back after all of the irreconcilable differences with their father that I've been hoping that Mary will be shown to be cut from a different mold and not another source of angst that John has become over the course of the series when he's referred to. Even though they are adults and have become their own men they're also so about family that I want to see this to work out for them.

I didn't really think of Mary coming back as a second chance for Sam and Dean to have a good relationship with family (aside from each other). That's a cool way to look at it.

Honestly though, I don't know why it has to be so angsty about John. He was a PITA, but he loved them. What more can you ask for from a parent, really. Will take it to the bitterness thread in a sec but -- even though I understand why they had to kill him off (because of how the show was structured), I think it would have been so interesting to see how their relationships with him changed as they grew up. I mean, Sam and Dean were adults when the show began, but they have grown up so much over the course of the show, that it still makes me think that it would have been interesting to see how their family would have changed over the course of that time if John had stayed a part of it during all that time.

In that same vein, the "second chance" that I've been seeing in Mary returning is the second chance for Sam and Dean (and in a meta way, the show) to have an *adult* relationship with family/a parent.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, rue721 said:

n that same vein, the "second chance" that I've been seeing in Mary returning is the second chance for Sam and Dean (and in a meta way, the show) to have an *adult* relationship with family/a parent

But Mary isn't doing anything to foster that adult relationship. Shes' gone all the time. She's lying to them about her life. Dean was desperate to be connected to her and she bailed. 

I think Sam is going to blow a gasket sooner rather than later over this. Dean is venting a little at time.

[7kstar]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

In that same vein, the "second chance" that I've been seeing in Mary returning is the second chance for Sam and Dean (and in a meta way, the show) to have an *adult* relationship with family/a parent.

I get the idea of "let's explore the option of what happens after the "happy ever after"   You think you should have everything you've ever wanted, you've got your mom back but instead of sunshine and happiness, you've gotten another messed up relationship.

I think Dean has learned in a very painful way, that trying to be the peacemaker is harmful to all.  Dean can't let go yet and it's okay for him to be upset.  Mary hasn't done much to really be his mother.  He's lost another family member and this stranger they call mom isn't feeling like family.

I'm afraid the writing FAIL will be huge and we will be left with how they missed the boat.  But letting Dean be angry is actually true to his character, so perhaps they will do something right.  I'll try to stand with SueB on being hopeful even if it is painful to watch.