Spoilers With Speculation

[rue721]

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

And I hope Samantha gets signed as well.  She has been a valued supporting player over the years.  And they need another woman on the show.

I know that her story line makes it appears that she isn't solidly  on Team Sons, but making bad decisions for the right reasons is a main Winchester characteristic. 

I hope so, too. I really like Mary as an addition to the show. She's an interesting character in her own right, she makes Sam and Dean's world a little bit bigger and more complicated than it would be otherwise, and she feels like an organic fit IMO.

And it would probably have made more logical sense to cast Amy G as our current "present day" Mary (because of the age Mary was when she died), but Samantha Smith is a good actress and seems like a cool person, so I'm down. I've grown attached to her now :)

[ILoveReading]

The problem with Mary whole single minded "lets get rid of all monsters" is that the show has spent a significant amount of time firmly establishing that not all monsters are bad or deserve killing. 

Monsters come on Sam and Dean's radar because they're killing people.  As I mentioned the raid looks like The Brits went and rounded up all Vampires they could find and stuck them in cells and it will be like hunting at a zoo.  

I wouldn't find it in character for either Sam or Dean to willingly participate in what looks like an execution rather than a hunt.  

If it wasn't for a Vampire Dean would still be in Purgatory.

To make the BMoLs the good guys they show is going to have to backtrack on 11 seasons worth of story in reguards to monsters.  It's an objection both Sam and Dean need to be allowed to present to Mary when she's making her sales pitch.  But unfortunately, valid objections aren't usually allowed to be voiced into order to make certain storylines work.

If things go as sideways at the raid as they appear to go based on stills and promo, it should further cement Sam and Dean's feelings that the Brits plan isn't the best one.  But based on spoilers and set reports they are working with them.  Hopefully they'll establish that its part of a plan, to take them down from the inside. 

[rue721]

53 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If things go as sideways at the raid as they appear to go based on stills and promo, it should further cement Sam and Dean's feelings that the Brits plan isn't the best one.  But based on spoilers and set reports they are working with them.  Hopefully they'll establish that its part of a plan, to take them down from the inside.

I think that that will be the plan. I have a hard time believing that Sam and Dean are going to give them another real shot, just based on the torture alone. But they can't just attack the BMOL directly, because Mary is standing by them. IMO they're going to have to play along with the BMOL long enough to extricate her, at least.

[catrox14]

So, I was rewatching 12.12 and I took note of Sam making a big deal about getting all the MoL archives up onto a new cloud.

I mean why have Sam make any kind of remark about that if it's not going to come up again later. 

Mary and Cas are the only people at that table besides the boys and Wally, who is now dead, who know that Sam uploaded the files.

So I wonder, does that portend someone hacking Sam's new archive since he used free wi-fi at the restaurant

OR that the bunker is going to be lost. Maybe Dean and Sam decide to blow it up to keep it out of the hands of the BMoL and Dean uses the grenade launcher to do it.

[Mick Lady]

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So, I was rewatching 12.12 and I took note of Sam making a big deal about getting all the MoL archives up onto a new cloud.

I mean why have Sam make any kind of remark about that if it's not going to come up again later. 

Mary and Cas are the only people at that table besides the boys and Wally, who is now dead, who know that Sam uploaded the files.

So I wonder, does that portend someone hacking Sam's new archive since he used free wi-fi at the restaurant

OR that the bunker is going to be lost. Maybe Dean and Sam decide to blow it up to keep it out of the hands of the BMoL and Dean uses the grenade launcher to do it.

Wow catrox, that never occurred to me! Dean would hate to lose the Bunker! (It's memory foam, it remembers me!) I hope you're not right. The Boys need a home!

[catrox14]

Just now, Mick Lady said:

Wow catrox, that never occurred to me! Dean would hate to lose the Bunker! (It's memory foam, it remembers me!) I hope you're not right. The Boys need a home!

Well, they keep saying they want the boys on the road more etc going back to s1 stuff. Blowing up the bunker would sure accomplish that.  But I also think Jim Michaels will have a stroke if they blow it up LOL

[auntvi]

While it sure would be dramatic to blow up the bunker (and close out the MoL story?), I'd be sorry to see it go. First, it's a beautiful set with the library and map table and various collections; then it has endless possibilities - I'm sure Sam & Dean haven't found all the cool, science fictiony spaces in the bunker. Also, I just like the idea that the boys have a cool "bat cave".

[goldy]

https://tvline.com/2017/02/28/nashville-season-5-rayna-death-spoilers-replacement-connie-britton/

Question: It’s been a while since I asked, so do you have any scoop on Dean for the upcoming episodes of Supernatural? —Joanna
Ausiello: Would you settle for something Cas-related instead? No? Too bad, ’cause that’s all I got. If you’re wondering whether Cas killing Billie the Reaper will have cosmic consequences — specifically for the angel himself — you’re not the only one. “As I’m reading upcoming scripts and seeing what’s happening to the characters, I have been asking myself that question, as well,” Misha Collins tells TVLine. “As far as I’ve seen, it’s not resolved yet. But there are a lot of things that crop up that I interpret as possibly having been cosmic consequences of that action.”

[Wayward Son]

12 minutes ago, goldy said:

https://tvline.com/2017/02/28/nashville-season-5-rayna-death-spoilers-replacement-connie-britton/

Question: It’s been a while since I asked, so do you have any scoop on Dean for the upcoming episodes of Supernatural? —Joanna
Ausiello: Would you settle for something Cas-related instead? No? Too bad, ’cause that’s all I got. If you’re wondering whether Cas killing Billie the Reaper will have cosmic consequences — specifically for the angel himself — you’re not the only one. “As I’m reading upcoming scripts and seeing what’s happening to the characters, I have been asking myself that question, as well,” Misha Collins tells TVLine. “As far as I’ve seen, it’s not resolved yet. But there are a lot of things that crop up that I interpret as possibly having been cosmic consequences of that action.”

I'm not sure what to make of that. I assume tvline must have only had access to Misha recently for whatever reason (J2 too busy filming?). 

My take from that though is that when you consider the fact they're currently about to start filming episode 19 (and are presumably at least one or two scripts ahead of that event) they must be dragging out the "cosmic consequences" plot until the season finale or thereabouts.

I'm guessing that they'll kill off Cas in the season finale (as I've been speculating for a while now anyway), or at the very least they'll end the season with a "will he or won't he die" cliffhanger to keep us in suspense between seasons. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Well, someone at least tried. As disappointing as the outcome is.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

Well, someone at least tried. As disappointing as the outcome is.

The quote given came from Misha so I took that to mean that he was the only one they had access to at the time. And just like Jensen tends to talk about Dean or Jared about Sam, Misha sticks to his own character. I wouldn't worry about it being a sign that there'll be a lack of Dean storylines (if it has made you worry that is) :)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I wouldn't worry about it being a sign that there'll be a lack of Dean storylines (if it has made you worry that is) :)

I`m roughly 95 % certain he won`t have anything noteworthy this Season. So, a spoiler for the character would have been a nice positive surprise and I could have done with something to look forward to for the last third of the Season. Even something like a standalone. This is more like "of course", throws up hands and goes back to not being excited about anything.

[SueB]

So, that was obviously NOT my question, but NGL, I sent in a question asking for details regarding the cosmic consequences of Cas killings Billie. So, they answered my question that I wanted (without giving a good answer). 

I know that Sam Smith was doing phone interviews today for this week's episode (I think).  So, perhaps they had some Misha stuff from a similar circumstance recently.  

Looking at the answer, says to me that Cas cosmic consequences may not occur until the last bit of the season. 

[Mick Lady]

If they give us a cliffhanger of "Is He or is He not alive?" regarding Cas, I swear I'll have a heart attack. I've loved him and his interaction with Dean from the start.

It would devastate Dean, and I don't want to watch that, even if it would be considered "daring" by some. TFW should be together to the end!

[Wayward Son]

5 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

If they give us a cliffhanger of "Is He or is He not alive?" regarding Cas, I swear I'll have a heart attack. I've loved him and his interaction with Dean from the start.

It would devastate Dean, and I don't want to watch that, even if it would be considered "daring" by some. TFW should be together to the end!

Bit in bold would depend on who is writing the ep ;) . I'll say no more lest I go into bitterness territory. 

[bozodegama]

It's completely obvious to me that Cass is going to die at the end of the season.  He did kill the reaper and started the "cosmic consequences" and they've been foreshadowing it.  Cass has almost died in two episodes already and he's given the "I love you" speech which Dean would never do (He would say they were family, though).  I'm sure he'll die in the last episode because it's supernatural and someone always dies at the end of the season.  I'm also 100 percent sure that Dean will go into heaven or hell or the void or wherever to go find him at all costs at the beginning of season 13.  They won't write Cass or Crowley out of the show imo.   

.  

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

It's completely obvious to me that Cass is going to die at the end of the season.  He did kill the reaper and started the "cosmic consequences" and they've been foreshadowing it.  Cass has almost died in two episodes already and he's given the "I love you" speech which Dean would never do (He would say they were family, though).  I'm sure he'll die in the last episode because it's supernatural and someone always dies at the end of the season.  I'm also 100 percent sure that Dean will go into heaven or hell or the void or wherever to go find him at all costs at the beginning of season 13.  They won't write Cass or Crowley out of the show imo.   

.  

I'd LOVE this! I'd love to see Dean go into full blown panic mode over Cas' death the way he has in the past over the likes of John and Bobby. 

I do agree they've been foreshadowing Cas' death all season although I think it's gonna be a permanent death (unfortunately). 

[catrox14]

Dean telling someone they  are family = I love you in Dean speak, so he's told Cas many times over the years he loves him.

I think if Cas dies it will be sudden and not in the season finale. They might pull a Charlie and do it in the first part of the final act or the  penultimate (who says penultimate?) episode of the season. 

I was thinking that If BMoL are really out to kill  off all supernatural entities then angels should be on their hit list and I think Cas is a target possibly Mary's assignment. 

It's not clear to me what exactly Mary knows about the Apocalypse. I have no idea if she knows what role the angels played. Does she know that Cas lifted Dean from perdition? Or that he brought back Sam from hell minus his soul?

Maybe she is being groomed to take out Cas. Or BMOL compel her to make a choice between Cas' life and the boys.

[AwesomO4000]

I can imagine that if Carver was still in charge that if Castiel was killed, Sam would've somehow been a cause and/or have gone along with Mary and not stopped it. Mistakenly of course, but no matter, damage done.

I'm so glad Carver is no longer here.

[Myrelle]

Previous spoilers have informed us that Cas is going to have to "power up" in order to take out the nephilim. My spec is that the Winchesters will oppose him in that on the basis of the nephilim having done nothing evil as yet and as such his/her death would not be warranted-again, yet. Unfortunately, we still have Lucifer in the picture, too. So it's possible that the Winchesters wishes will align with the Devil's this time around. There may be deaths, but I'm thinking that Cas (and however he "powers up") will be the cause of them, not the victim-both Winchesters, maybe? All of them? Mary, most likely and probably(at least). Maybe they will leave us on a cliffhanger akin to S1's-the Winchester family in danger of being killed off completely?-that would be cosmic consequences, for sure. And while we know that neither of the brothers will die permanently, that doesn't mean that they won't/wouldn't visit an after-life again. And how would Cas feel about those consequences and what would he do? And what would be the price to bring them back? Likely one of the Winchesters, for sure. Maybe they will even wrap up Mary's arc by going this way in the finale, leaving us with Cas and the Winchesters in an uncertain state, relationship-wise. THat would be a soap opera cliffhanger, but would fit in completely with the present showrunner/writing style, IMO.

FWIW, I don't think that Cas is going to die at all. They will probably put him in the emo role again, in s13 after having  done "what he had to do" to complete the mission. They've gone with that type of writing every previous time that I can think of, and no matter which character is the one tasked with completing the myth arc mission; and while sometimes that character does die(only to be brought back), I think they are going for a more S1 feel with the Resurrecting Mary storyline, so if anyone goes, I think it will be her, sacrificing her life so that her sons (or one of them) will be saved and live, either in the finale or the S13 premiere.

I just hope that whatever happens, Dean is not stuck in the strictly and only handwringing role again. I hate that narrow and altogether limiting role for JA, at this point in the show/story. I hope that he'll get something more active to do than just that again. And I REALLY! hope that they won't attempt to just do a redux of IMTOD only with Sam near death this time because that is one of my worst fears.

[ILoveReading]

I hope they don't kill the Alpha because I really like the character but if they do than it should be Dean's turn.  It's all about balance.

[Geordiegirl1967]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I'd LOVE this! I'd love to see Dean go into full blown panic mode over Cas' death the way he has in the past over the likes of John and Bobby. 

We already saw this in s7. He was sad but it was hardly debilitating. Not like the times he has thought he lost Sam. I can't see them going down this route again and I think the fears being expressed here about Cas getting killed off are unfounded. Next season both Js will have 3 kids under 6 including 3 babies. Misha's presence gives them more time off. They won't lose that.

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

We already saw this in s7. He was sad but it was hardly debilitating. Not like the times he has thought he lost Sam. I can't see them going down this route again and I think the fears being expressed here about Cas getting killed off are unfounded. Next season both Js will have 3 kids under 6 including 3 babies. Misha's presence gives them more time off. They won't lose that.

I didn't mention Sam, so I dont really understand why you're making the comparison to be honest? I've never stated here, or elsewhere, that's dean care for Cas is comparable to Sam. In fact I've acknowledged in several posts that Sam always comes first. 

What I said was that I'd love to see him show the type of panic he displayed after the deaths of John and Bobby. IMO he didn't in season seven, which is why I'd love to see it now as a sign of how attached he has become since then.  

Of course this wouldn't be of interest to some, but I was only referring to what I  would like to see.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

We already saw this in s7. He was sad but it was hardly debilitating. Not like the times he has thought he lost Sam. I can't see them going down this route again and I think the fears being expressed here about Cas getting killed off are unfounded. Next season both Js will have 3 kids under 6 including 3 babies. Misha's presence gives them more time off. They won't lose that.

Obviously, we all have different takes and those (including me) that are concerned about Cas' welfare might be incorrect in the end but I think the takes do have a reasonable foundation.

 The show has done the following which are typically markers of a character's doom in this show.

--Serious jeopardy.

--Character is changed in some way

--Character is given a lot of focus and declarations of love in an explicit manner. 

-- IRL reasons - Misha getting the *and credit that puts him on the level of the boys credits wise. Yes I KNOW that is a negotiated thing. Yes I KNOW J2 probably don't care. It's still a prestige credit being given to the 3rd billed actor who has not been on the show as long as the two leads.  Misha  has two young children himself that he's already said at cons he thinks he's not there for them as much as maybe he should be. He might want more time himself for his family.

Of course my super cynical side, thinks given the introduction of   Castiel in a different meatsuit (Fem!Cas) they could theoretically not kill Castiel the character but if Misha wants to work less himself, bring in a new actor(male or female) to play Castiel either for the duration of the show or  keeps it open for him to come back.

I want to be as wrong as I can be.  I don't want to lose Castiel as played by Misha Collins at all. 

It's just a peculiar set of circumstances that I find curious and it makes me nervous.

[bozodegama]

Someone always dies at the end of the season in supernatural but as we know the deaths of the stars aren't permanent (except for Bobby who wasn't a star, just a guest star).  Dean dies at the end of season 1, Sam at the end of season 2, Dean dies and goes to hell at the end of season 3, season 4 the devil rises, season 5 sam dies without his soul, season 6 Cass sort of dies, becomes something else, season 7 dean and cass die and go to purgatory, season 8 Sam practically dies, season 9 dean dies and becomes a demon, season 10 they let the darkness loose,  season 11 it seems like sam has been shot and killed but he hasn't.  It's time for Cass to die and Dean to find him.  I wouldn't be surprised if they killed Mary off either.  But Cass isn't going anywhere.  Season 13 is going to start by Dean (and maybe Sam) looking for him.  I wouldn't be surprised if the BMOL kill Cass to avoid "Cosmic Consequences"  Thats the way I see this season shaping up.  Of Course, Dean will kill Mr. Ketch in some dramatic way after he betrays Mary.  Although I love Mr. Ketch, he has to go.  Maybe that annoying Mick guy and Lady whatshername too.  I was really sad to see Wally the hunter killed.  I loved that guy and he would've made a great friend for Dean

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

What I said was that I'd love to see him show the type of panic he displayed after the deaths of John and Bobby. IMO he didn't in season seven, which is why I'd love to see it now as a sign of how attached he has become since then.  

Dean's reaction to Cas being gone in s7 was deraile IMO, because he was dealing with Sam's mental break with the Halluciferations and then Bobby's death.  S8 I think we had a little better insight into Dean's headspace about losing Cas in Purgatory but that was all mixed in with Dean's PTSD, his friendship with Benny, being at odds with Sam and the trials. 

S9 Dean was all over the map because he was dealing his own guilt/shame for letting Sam be possessed by Gadreel; for kicking Cas out of the bunker, and then the Mark of Cain changing him. (sidebar: I watched Road Trip last night. I think Dean's apology to Cas was a completely sincere and regret filled apology). S10 was interesting because they were not entirely emotionally separated despite the Mark of Cain. Cas was willing to stand by Dean to the end of time if they couldn't save him.

I think S11* and s12 are the closest Dean and Cas have been since like s5. They are together as much the show will let them be; they are on good terms;  Dean and Cas are worrying about each other all the time and in contact via phone and text. They are not separated emotionally IMO. Plus all the hugs feel like harbingers of doom.

*S11 they were partly at odds until like half way through the season

My cynical side feels like 'Welp, this is almost too good to be true and this is all going to come crashing down..sooner rather than later'. :( .

Edited March 1, 2017 by catrox14

[goldy]

[Myrelle]

I kind of like Mick. Not sure if he knows all that Ketch has done, but even if he does, he's who I think would be the most reasonable of that bunch, and as such, the one who would be most likely to be able "see the light" where it concerns the Winchesters and their more grey view of monsters and the question of whether to always kill them or not. Ketch has to go, IMO. Tbh, I can see Dean taking his place, but with a better moral and more righteous code; and one of the perks could be that he might even get to use the grenade launcher once in a while. :-)

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I kind of like Mick. Not sure if he knows all that Ketch has done, but even if he does, he's who I think would be the most reasonable of that bunch, and as such, the one who would be most likely to be able "see the light" where it concerns the Winchesters and their more grey view of monsters and the question of whether to always kill them or not. Ketch has to go, IMO. Tbh, I can see Dean taking his place, but with a better moral and more righteous code; and one of the perks could be that he might even get to use the grenade launcher once in a while. :-)

 

I see Mick totally opposite. I think Ketch is the enforcer. I noticed in First Blood that he gave Ketch the head nod to go and kill all the survivors. At minimum it's tacit approval but I think Mick is giving the kill orders. Mick won't get his hands that dirty so he can say he didn't actually kill anyone and it would be true, in that Charles Manson kind of way.

[ahrtee]

44 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Of course this wouldn't be of interest to some, but I was only referring to what I  would like to see.

You're still new to the forum, and I know there was some confusion with some of your earlier posts, so maybe you're concerned about the way people react to your comments.  We (well, speaking for myself, *I*) love to hear others' takes, not only on what we see on the show, but what we'd *like* to see, so all comments are interesting, even if some don't agree with you.  That's the kickoff point for discussion, as long as all sides accept that there are different POVs.

TBH, I think I might annoy people because I tend to want to clarify things and often point out things that I think a poster might have missed or forgotten, like Dean's reaction in s.7.  That's my librarian "fact-checking" mode and unfortunately I can't turn it off, though I can sometimes sit on my hands and not post if I feel it's unnecessary.  It doesn't mean I disagree with someone, and isn't meant as a criticism.  You should never have to apologize for your opinions here. 

[SueB]

I can't figure out how to link the producers' preview but it's the second video here;

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2017/03/01/supernatural-sneak-peek-s12e14-the-raid/

Thoughts on both videos combined:

GOOD on Sam for asking Dean to talk about it and yay that Dean actually gave it more than 10 seconds.  This is such a painful topic for him, I appreciate the growth -- this is not a joke. Old Dean would have said "nope" and gone straight to the bar.  Dean at least paused to hear what Sam had to say.

INTERESTING that Dean is remarking on "Sam playing peacemaker".  It IS a "pot" meet "kettle" moment given Deans' role for probably a decade while they were growing up.  But I like that Sam's the one working for the peace.  Just a handful of years ago we had the 'Sam doesn't want to hunt' S8 trauma.  We are hell and gone from that state.  Sam is fighting for his family.  And I'm glad to see him step up to that role.  It's another subtle way of showing growth.  Centuries ago in S1, Sam said he and Dean didn't see family the same way.  Well, that's no longer true.  And family is more than just Dean.  And Dean knows this.  He's just PissedOff McPisseserson. 

GOOD that Dean is still pissed and expressing it. He's not going to accept 'suck it up and deal' (which is NOT what Sam was selling, BTW).  He's going to allow himself to be mad for a while.  And at least he was LOOKING for something other than the bottle to express his rage.  That failing, he's back to the bar.  Baby steps. Which I'm okay with - because I think he's going to be thinking about this, not just drinking to oblivion.  This is another variant of 'catching air'.  It would explain why he's not around if the way the Mary/Sam hunt comes together is that Mary calls when Dean is not there.  I could see Sam giving him a heads up that he's going to go see Mary.  That may signal to Dean he's "picked a side" but I could also see Dean eventually understanding that Sam isn't ready to throw the towel in. 

PLEASE let the BMoL get their asses handed to them.  It sure looks like Sam and Mary leave the 'civilians' locked in a room while they go to deal with the threat. 

Bottom line: Sam is going to do more homework on this before he just reject's Mary's premise.  That's Sam 101. And Dean, when he's less pissed, knows that this is Sam.  I like the initial video conversation because at least they are talking, even if it is still very jagged. I'm glad Dean is feeling betrayed and not cutting Mary any slack.  Given HIS life experiences (which Mary apparently doesn't know), this is completely appropriate.  It IS going to be up to Sam to broker peace.  Dean's just not ready to make up yet.  Mary is going to have to work the rapprochement.  She's going to HAVE to admit she was wrong (because she is) or Dean is not going to be copacetic with it.  

ETA: 
PREEMPTIVE logic to keep @AwesomO4000 off the ledge:
- Yes, it looks like Sam makes a decision and it goes pear-shaped. Again.  But in this case, his decision to work with Mary is trying to restore family and I just can't fault him for that.  And if the net result is the BMoL are exposed for the idiots they are, well then we have a good outcome.

Edited March 1, 2017 by SueB

[goldy]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

I can't figure out how to link the producers' preview but it's the second video here;

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2017/03/01/supernatural-sneak-peek-s12e14-the-raid/

 

I'll help :)

 

 

[SueB]

Thanks! @goldy

[ILoveReading]

Good for Dean for expressing his anger.  But, unfortunately, there is a pattern on this show when Dean is justifiably angry.   I'm sure after Mr. Ketch's lecture talk, Dean will be forced to apologize to both Mary and Sam, or get told to suck it up.

What a great opening to really address all the times Dean's been betrayed, and lied to and why he has a hard time trusting.  Mary might just be the straw that breaks the camels back.  But again when its part of Dean past, its not worth mentioning.

As I'm straying toward bitterness territory, I'll leave it at that.

Edited March 1, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But, unfortunately, there is a pattern on this show when Dean is justifiably angry.   I'm sure after Mr. Ketch's lecture talk, Dean will be forced to apologize to both Mary and Sam

Yes, I`m totally fearing an apology where he has learned "the error of his ways". It would be so galling to have him crawl before Mary who of course wouldn`t have to apologize for crap.  

Hopefully, he is not gonna be blamed for not being on this vamp hunt gone bad because he went out when the call came. Or maybe Sam calls Mary. I don`t want any "if you hadn`t stormed off in a huff".

The BMOL (and Mary) have noone but themselves to blame for being the target here. That complex is like the stupid Intitiative from Buffy, how I hated them,  

Edited March 1, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yes, I`m totally fearing an apology where he has learned "the error of his ways". It would be so galling to have him crawl before Mary who of course wouldn`t have to apologize for crap.  

Hopefully, he is not gonna be blamed for not being on this vamp hunt gone bad because he went out when the call came. Or maybe Sam calls Mary. I don`t want any "if you hadn`t stormed off in a huff".

The BMOL (and Mary) have noone but themselves to blame for being the target here.   

Its kind of ironic to be preaching family and then have Sam side with Mary.  (as this episode seems to indicate he is)

[SueB]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Its kind of ironic to be preaching family and then have Sam side with Mary.  (as this episode seems to indicate he is)

I think it's TOTALLY a family move.  He's trying to bridge the gap with Mary and Dean.  They've frozen her out "for days".  He recognizes the family won't heal without conversation. He's talked to Dean and Dean has expressed his thoughts and is ready to go blow off some steam.  He suggested they BOTH talk to Mary and Dean isn't having any of it.  This is the role of the peacemaker.  And just because Dean isn't happy with Sam making peace in the family doesn't mean it's an anti-family move.  

Sam was unambiguously more physically hurt by the torture and has a right to feel betrayed.  Dean, OTOH, has a lifetime of devotion to Mary that has now been betrayed.  The damage to Sam is significant. The damage to Dean is a crack in his personality foundation.  Both are bad but Sam is correct to recognize that "logic" is not going to bring Dean around.  This just runs too deep for him.  

Conversely, I think Sam is going to have to try 'logic' against his Mom in order to get her to see why what she's doing is just not acceptable.  So, following her lead in a hunt to truly "see" her perspective is a classic opening gambit in any good negotiation. And it looks like another BMoL blunder is going to provide the abject lesson for Mary to see that the BMoL are idiots. And Sam won't have to make much of a case.  As it is, Sam will hopefully save Mary's bacon.  

Regarding Ketch "lecturing" Dean. Ha!  He can try.  But the only thing Dean will get out of Ketch is intel.  He has zero respect for Ketch.  Ketch may inadvertently provide insight but IMO there's literally nothing Ketch is going to do to convince Dean that Ketch is a good guy.  

[catrox14]

I'm glad that Dean froze Mary out for a few days. I'm glad that he's pissed at her and not just accepting her betrayal. I'm glad that Dean told Sam to step off with defending Mary.  Mary is probably the ONE person Dean believed with all his heart and soul, would never lie to him or betray him.  So he's completely feeling this as deeply as any betrayal probably more.

I understand the worry that Dean will have to apologize however this time maybe not. IIRC, Dean didn't apologize for being angry with Cas. He told him he wasn't angry but he was worried.

So maybe this time Dean won't apologize. Maybe he'll just say this is what I think and feel. Mary betrayed us. I'm angry and I'm not going to apologize for my anger.

Maybe Sam and Mary will have to come to terms with Dean maybe finally having had enough of betrayal. 

I wonder if Dean is going to just peace out of the whole thing.

One thing I did notice is that Sam was being shady with his phone. He saw something, Dean walks in and he quickly hides his phone.

I'm wondering now if maybe Sam has already decided to work with Mary and the BMoL and that may be he's projecting. If he's already agreed to help Mary maybe that's why he's saying "Well, we need to talk to her and get her side" because he already knows her side and concurs. And he's now trying to get Dean to come around.

Edited March 1, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

Regarding Ketch "lecturing" Dean. Ha!  He can try.  But the only thing Dean will get out of Ketch is intel.  He has zero respect for Ketch.  Ketch may inadvertently provide insight but IMO there's literally nothing Ketch is going to do to convince Dean that Ketch is a good guy.  

There are set reports for episode 16 of Jensen filming with the one who plays Mick.  It sounds like he agrees to work with them on some level.

[Diane]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think it's TOTALLY a family move.  He's trying to bridge the gap with Mary and Dean.  They've frozen her out "for days".  He recognizes the family won't heal without conversation. He's talked to Dean and Dean has expressed his thoughts and is ready to go blow off some steam.  He suggested they BOTH talk to Mary and Dean isn't having any of it.  This is the role of the peacemaker.  And just because Dean isn't happy with Sam making peace in the family doesn't mean it's an anti-family move.  

Sam was unambiguously more physically hurt by the torture and has a right to feel betrayed.  Dean, OTOH, has a lifetime of devotion to Mary that has now been betrayed.  The damage to Sam is significant. The damage to Dean is a crack in his personality foundation.  Both are bad but Sam is correct to recognize that "logic" is not going to bring Dean around.  This just runs too deep for him.  

Conversely, I think Sam is going to have to try 'logic' against his Mom in order to get her to see why what she's doing is just not acceptable.  So, following her lead in a hunt to truly "see" her perspective is a classic opening gambit in any good negotiation. And it looks like another BMoL blunder is going to provide the abject lesson for Mary to see that the BMoL are idiots. And Sam won't have to make much of a case.  As it is, Sam will hopefully save Mary's bacon.  

Regarding Ketch "lecturing" Dean. Ha!  He can try.  But the only thing Dean will get out of Ketch is intel.  He has zero respect for Ketch.  Ketch may inadvertently provide insight but IMO there's literally nothing Ketch is going to do to convince Dean that Ketch is a good guy.  

I really like your take on this.

[AwesomO4000]

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

ETA: 
PREEMPTIVE logic to keep @AwesomO4000 off the ledge:
- Yes, it looks like Sam makes a decision and it goes pear-shaped. Again.  But in this case, his decision to work with Mary is trying to restore family and I just can't fault him for that.  And if the net result is the BMoL are exposed for the idiots they are, well then we have a good outcome.

Thanks for the effort SueB.

I still don't like it, and I'm afraid that it might not be just that either. If, for example, Dean isn't there and doesn't see the BMoL screw up, and Mary somehow talks Sam into giving the BMoL another chance with something like "Just don't tell Dean... yet," and this turns into more "secrets and lies" angst where Dean can - rightfully - accuse Sam of going behind his back and/or choosing Mary over him, I'll be annoyed. Because of course any second chance is going to go pear shaped also, and Sam will once again be in the dumbass seat, and... since I'm about to go off into bitterness territory, I'll just delete the rest of what I was going to say and leave it at that.

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I'm sure after Mr. Ketch's lecture talk, Dean will be forced to apologize to both Mary and Sam

If that happens - and for me it would be a huge "if" - Dean would somehow still turn out to be right in the end, because unless this show has somehow gone crazy, the BMoL has to screw up big time at some point. These are not the good guys. So if Dean apologizes - which I think is unlikely - it would just be the set up for the huge "I told you so" coming Mary and Sam's way later... with yet more "Dean has reason to not trust Sam and so Sam has to work back into his good graces again" cakes on the side.

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Its kind of ironic to be preaching family and then have Sam side with Mary.  (as this episode seems to indicate he is)

It's weird to me. With much less evidence, Sam didn't hesitate to side with Dean against John in the season 1 finale, and arguably Sam and Dean didn't even know each other as well at that point as they do now. But of course they have to find some excuse for Sam to be "wrong." (I had hoped this would go away with Carver no longer in charge.)

 

And I like your reasoning above @SueB, but I'm worried it won't be as clear cut as that - as in I'm not sure that Mary will be as willing to cut bait with the BMoL even if they do mess up. She's in so deep, I'm not sure one mess up will convince her... and then I'm not sure where they will take Sam after that, but I'm afraid it would be to side with Mary against Dean for some stupid reason... well accept for Dean to have more betrayal ammunition that is.

And what is this demented fetish this show seems to have with Sam arguing for and/or agreeing to work with people who have tortured him in some way?* Though this isn't a new thing since it goes way back to season 5 at least with the Trickster, but still with Lucifer and now the BMoL it's getting out of hand.

* And recently there was also Gadreel. And Cole. And they work with Crowley all the time. It's getting ridiculous. Even Castiel arguably fits into this category, but redemption move and exception for family there, I guess.

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

There are set reports for episode 16 of Jensen filming with the one who plays Mick.  It sounds like he agrees to work with them on some level.

Likely to set up the big Dean save and "I told you so" when the BMoL are revealed to be evil.

[rue721]

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

With much less evidence, Sam didn't hesitate to side with Dean against John in the season 1 finale, and arguably Sam and Dean didn't even know each other as well at that point as they do now.

I think that was a very different circumstance, because Sam's relationship with John was very different from his relationship (or rather, potential relationship) with Mary.

Sam took John for granted IMO. He was pretty rebellious toward him, he didn't seem to worry much about him, and there was a lot of resentment that went both ways between them. I mean, when Dean went to get Sam at Stanford and said that he didn't want to hunt alone, I thought it was a pretty heavy hint that Dean though John was dead. But Sam really didn't seem to even pick up on the possibility. I think that's because Sam still had a pretty childlike view of John, and just assumed that he was strong and would always be OK.

Conversely, Sam DEFINITELY doesn't take Mary for granted. He seems to think their relationship is incredibly fragile. I think it's perfectly natural that he would treat their relationship much more delicately than he did his relationship with John.

To say nothing about how Sam himself has changed over the years. And how John's death may have changed his perspective on this, too.

24 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And what is this demented fetish this show seems to have with Sam arguing for and/or agreeing to work with people who have tortured him in some way?*

Yes, I agree. This is starting to drive me nuts. I feel like Cole was the tipping point. It still befuddles me that either Sam or Dean could be OK with Cole after what he did to Sam.

[Wayward Son]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Obviously, we all have different takes and those (including me) that are concerned about Cas' welfare might be incorrect in the end but I think the takes do have a reasonable foundation.

 The show has done the following which are typically markers of a character's doom in this show.

--Serious jeopardy.

--Character is changed in some way

--Character is given a lot of focus and declarations of love in an explicit manner. 

-- IRL reasons - Misha getting the *and credit that puts him on the level of the boys credits wise. Yes I KNOW that is a negotiated thing. Yes I KNOW J2 probably don't care. It's still a prestige credit being given to the 3rd billed actor who has not been on the show as long as the two leads.  Misha  has two young children himself that he's already said at cons he thinks he's not there for them as much as maybe he should be. He might want more time himself for his family.

Of course my super cynical side, thinks given the introduction of   Castiel in a different meatsuit (Fem!Cas) they could theoretically not kill Castiel the character but if Misha wants to work less himself, bring in a new actor(male or female) to play Castiel either for the duration of the show or  keeps it open for him to come back.

I want to be as wrong as I can be.  I don't want to lose Castiel as played by Misha Collins at all. 

It's just a peculiar set of circumstances that I find curious and it makes me nervous.

I agree with pretty much all of this Catrox!

I would also add that if it's just a matter of giving Jared and Jensen time off they potentially have a replacement waiting in the wings. Samantha Smith has pretty much been a series regular in all but name this season. We know she will be in nine episodes by episode seventeen and it is quite likely she'll be in several more after that to match the 11-13 episodes Misha and Mark have been in the last few years. 

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean's reaction to Cas being gone in s7 was deraile IMO, because he was dealing with Sam's mental break with the Halluciferations and then Bobby's death.  S8 I think we had a little better insight into Dean's headspace about losing Cas in Purgatory but that was all mixed in with Dean's PTSD, his friendship with Benny, being at odds with Sam and the trials. 

To be honest I thought his overall reaction to Cas' death in season seven was pretty much lacklustre and let's not forget that Dean was the one urging Death to kill him in Meet the New Boss. I do think Ben Edlund attempted to show us that Dean was grieving for Cas in How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters, but beyond that we got very little.

Of course IMO Ben Edlund was the greatest advocate for the Dean!Cas friendship we've ever had on the writing team so it's not surprising he tried to give us something to show Dean cared enough about him to feel grief. 

1 hour ago, SueB said:

GOOD on Sam for asking Dean to talk about it and yay that Dean actually gave it more than 10 seconds.  This is such a painful topic for him, I appreciate the growth -- this is not a joke. Old Dean would have said "nope" and gone straight to the bar.  Dean at least paused to hear what Sam had to say.

INTERESTING that Dean is remarking on "Sam playing peacemaker".  It IS a "pot" meet "kettle" moment given Deans' role for probably a decade while they were growing up.  But I like that Sam's the one working for the peace.  Just a handful of years ago we had the 'Sam doesn't want to hunt' S8 trauma.  We are hell and gone from that state.  Sam is fighting for his family.  And I'm glad to see him step up to that role.  It's another subtle way of showing growth.  Centuries ago in S1, Sam said he and Dean didn't see family the same way.  Well, that's no longer true.  And family is more than just Dean.  And Dean knows this.  He's just PissedOff McPisseserson. 

I agree! I like that Dean was willing to admit he didn't want to talk about it, but acknowledged that he needed to talk about it by doing so anyway. You're right that it was growth on his part that he didn't just skip to the drinks equation.

The only part about the whole thing that annoyed me was the last remark to Sam. Sam has expressed his misgivings about the man of letters and supported the initial freezing out of Mary while they process the whole thing. Beyond that, it is up to Sam how he wishes to deal with the situation. He doesn't need Dean dictating to him how he should behave. 

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Good for Dean for expressing his anger.  But, unfortunately, there is a pattern on this show when Dean is justifiably angry.   I'm sure after Mr. Ketch's lecture talk, Dean will be forced to apologize to both Mary and Sam, or get told to suck it up.

 

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yes, I`m totally fearing an apology where he has learned "the error of his ways". It would be so galling to have him crawl before Mary who of course wouldn`t have to apologize for crap.  

 I personally don't get that vibe at all and I hope for all our sakes I'm right :).

The impression I've received is that Dean is going to be proved right in the end when Sam agrees to work with Mary and the BMoL and the whole thing goes pear shaped!

Edited March 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And what is this demented fetish this show seems to have with Sam arguing for and/or agreeing to work with people who have tortured him in some way?* Though this isn't a new thing since it goes way back to season 5 at least with the Trickster, but still with Lucifer and now the BMoL it's getting out of hand.

 The only thing I can think is that maybe  it's supposed to show that Sam is so strong and emotionally well adjusted that he can put aside his sorrows and suffering for the sake of others and the greater good?

..Either that or Sam is a masochist. I'm undecided.

[catrox14]

Quote

Edited March 1, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 The only thing I can think is that maybe  it's supposed to show that Sam is so strong and emotionally well adjusted that he can put aside his sorrows and suffering for the sake of others and the greater good?

..Either that or Sam is a masochist. I'm undecided.

I don't think it's emotionally well-adjusted to work with your torturers! Just in a practical sense, it's foolish.

I dunno if we're meant to take it as Sam being masochistic or as him having been hit in the head one too many times or what!

The weirdest part is that the show sometimes just pretends the torture didn't happen? I don't know why they make such a big deal of it while it's happening if then all the characters forget about it (and maybe we're meant to, too?).

[SueB]

53 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And what is this demented fetish this show seems to have with Sam arguing for and/or agreeing to work with people who have tortured him in some way?* Though this isn't a new thing since it goes way back to season 5 at least with the Trickster, but still with Lucifer and now the BMoL it's getting out of hand.

* And recently there was also Gadreel. And Cole. And they work with Crowley all the time. It's getting ridiculous. Even Castiel arguably fits into this category, but redemption move and exception for family there, I guess.

 

Because he puts the S.A.M. into S&M (leather bustier optional).  

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[ILoveReading]

35 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 

To be honest I thought his overall reaction to Cas' death in season seven was pretty much lacklustre and let's not forget that Dean was the one urging Death to kill him in Meet the New Boss. I do think Ben Edlund attempted to show us that Dean was grieving for Cas in How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters, but beyond that we got very little.

 

I think that Dean just shut down in s7.  I don't think he could let himself feel Cas's death, Bobby's death, or what was going on with Sam or he was going to be more nonfunctional than Sam was.   Dean had to once again be the one set aside what was going one with him and to be there for Sam.   So all those hurt feelings toward Cas ended up behind that locked reinforced box of things Dean doesn't want to deal with.  But there were cracks.  We saw him having nightmares.  He kept himself in that alcoholic haze most of the time.  He was drinking whiskey for breaksfast.  He kept the trenchcoat.  You can see it folded in the car during The Mentalists.   Unfortunately, the line was cut, but in the promo for The Born-Again Identity there was a line where Dean says 'Part of me never stopped hoping you'd come back."  (I still don't forgive them for cutting that. 

As for the death thing, I don't think it was Cas he was urging death to kill so much as God.  When Dean thinks Cas is dead after they try to put the leviathans back, you can clearly see Dean's chin start to wibble and his face light up with joy when Cas starts breathing

The show has a perfect opening here to actually address Dean's abandonment issues here.  I'd actually like to see a conversation between Mary and Sam about Dean.  Where Sam fills her in on times where Dean has been let down/betrayed or left behind by family.  If Sam is actually trying to logic the situation he needs to explain Dean's POV and why Dean's dug in so hard and is so resistant.   We need more than a half hearted, "he means well... but'"  or "he's stubborn" or "he's dramatic." 

Dean has a very legitimate grievance  here and I'd like to see it handled Dean's POV in mind and not just... boo hoo stop whining lecture the show tends to fall back on..

Edited March 1, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

don't think it's emotionally well-adjusted to work with your torturers! Just in a practical sense, it's foolish.

I dunno if we're meant to take it as Sam being masochistic or as him having been hit in the head one too many times or what!

The weirdest part is that the show sometimes just pretends the torture didn't happen? I don't know why they make such a big deal of it while it's happening if then all the characters forget about it (and maybe we're meant to, too?).

 

Maybe  it's better to say that Sam is making a sacrifice by setting aside his issues because the case or the world demands it or family. I never said it WAS IRL a good thing.. I would argue that Dean is actually more well adjusted because hes like Fuck this noise.

[Boopsahoy]

21 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I don't think it's emotionally well-adjusted to work with your torturers! Just in a practical sense, it's foolish.

I dunno if we're meant to take it as Sam being masochistic or as him having been hit in the head one too many times or what!

The weirdest part is that the show sometimes just pretends the torture didn't happen? I don't know why they make such a big deal of it while it's happening if then all the characters forget about it (and maybe we're meant to, too?).

I can not fathom how Sam can work with them-his face last week when "reminding" Mary they tortured him said to me no way Jose...how are the writers going to explain it? I don't think he's a masochist either...