Spoilers With Speculation

catrox14 · October 8, 2016

1 minute ago, trxr4kids said:

Isn't that wound where Dean shot Lucifer with the colt back in season 5? If he is on the SPN set is this a hint he'll be a Lucifer vessel too? I hope not cause like many others I'm sick of the devil but I miss original recipe Death.

I don't think Death can be a vessel. I think that's why Lucifer bound him in s5.

trxr4kids · October 8, 2016

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think Death can be a vessel. I think that's why Lucifer bound him in s5.

Then maybe Death wasn't most sincerely dead (fingers crossed) and he's there to reap Lucifer or stuff him back in the cage.

catrox14 · October 8, 2016

15 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Then maybe Death wasn't most sincerely dead (fingers crossed) and he's there to reap Lucifer or stuff him back in the cage.

I like to think Death skipped out to the Empty when he saw the blade heading for him. I would accept that as a reason why Dean didn't become Death and why death was still happening on Earth.

catrox14 · October 8, 2016

oh my gods. Mark Sheppard's trailer. Hilarious. No real spoilers but just in case I missed something. Misha shows up a bit later. LOL

Edited October 8, 2016 by catrox14

SueB · October 8, 2016

Fantastic.

Boopsahoy · October 9, 2016

What? Julian Richling???

http://spnjensenlove02.tumblr.com/post/151541855138/tfw-destiel-cockles-misha-no-one-ever-really

Edited October 9, 2016 by Boopsahoy
I couldn't get it to post as a picture!

catrox14 · October 9, 2016

I posted that one upthread a bit. It's not confirmed that he's on the SPN set. I hope he is!

MysteryGuest · October 9, 2016

It certainly seems like Death will be back. That would be cool.

Boopsahoy · October 9, 2016

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I posted that one upthread a bit. It's not confirmed that he's on the SPN set. I hope he is!

Oh I must have missed it! Let's see if we get a confirmation.....if its true he is going to be angry that Mary is back!

Demented Daisy · October 9, 2016

On 10/6/2016 at 10:30 PM, goldy said:

Supernatural - Episode 12.03 - The Foundry - Press Release

http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/10/supernatural-episode-1203-foundry-press.html

“The Foundry” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET) (TV-14, LV) (HDTV)

OH BABY – When a crying baby leads to death in a mysterious abandoned house, Mary (guest star Samantha Smith), Sam (Jared Padelicki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) decide to investigate. Meanwhile, Castiel’s (Misha Collins) hunt for Lucifer (guest star Rick Springfield) leads him, begrudgingly, to partner up with Crowley (Mark A. Sheppard). Robert Berens wrote the episode directed by Robert Singer (#1203). Original airdate 10/27/2016.

A foundry is a type of factory. Creepy.

DittyDotDot · October 9, 2016

Like I said, really looking forward to that one!

goldy · October 10, 2016

Diane · October 10, 2016

https://twitter.com/cw_spn/status/785533135924506628

In the video Misha states Mary has been in heaven for the last 30 years. I don't think this has been posted yet.

goldy · October 10, 2016

Aww, cute video. I think I'm gonna like Cas and Mary's friendship. Also I'm all for the return of badass Cas lol.

catrox14 · October 10, 2016

Mary was in heaven for 30 years?

Nah, I'm calling shenanigans. Ash couldn't track Mary or John in s5 with his super tracker which would comport with Mary being a ghost in s1 which as we know ghosts only happen because they refuse to go with their reapers. Or at least that is what we've always been told. I could buy Amara plucking Mary out of the veil a lot more than Mary having been in Heaven this whole time.

If Mary was in Heaven, shouldn't Cas have been privy to that information at some point, especially in s9 when he was still going back and forth from Heaven and was the leader of the angels? It's ludicrous to me that Cas doesn't recognize Mary at all to begin with but him him not knowing she was in Heaven? Or if he did and he never told Dean and Sam to given them peace of mind? Oh that's gonna make me even more irritated. If Dean finds out Mary was in Heaven, welp, then cue Dean having the worst guilt-trip he's ever had.

Shenanigans, I say. SHE-NAN-I-GANS. /harumph

MysteryGuest · October 10, 2016

I'll buy Mary being in heaven from Home forward, but that's all. And even that's stretching it because as Catrox pointed out, Ash couldn't find her. But if we allow for the fact that Ash's search system might have been imperfect, or someone deliberately blocked him from being able to find her, that puts her in heaven at the most for a little over a decade. It might seem like hair-splitting, but I grow tired of this show always fucking with the canon...especially when there's no reason to do so.

Morrigan2575 · October 10, 2016

Forgive me, i don't follow SPN spoilers, i like to watch the show (mostly) unspoiled.

I just watched the extended promo for S12, is that Rick Springfield threatening Crowley?

MysteryGuest · October 10, 2016

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Forgive me, i don't follow SPN spoilers, i like to watch the show (mostly) unspoiled.

I just watched the extended promo for S12, is that Rick Springfield threatening Crowley?

Hi Morrigan2575! Yes, that's Rick Springfield, as generic rockstar inhabited by Lucifer. Fun times!

Morrigan2575 · October 10, 2016

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Hi Morrigan2575! Yes, that's Rick Springfield, as generic rockstar inhabited by Lucifer. Fun times!

Thanks! Wow, Rick Springfield.

There's a blast from the past...someone needs to sing Jessie's Girl during that episode.

pixelcat · October 10, 2016

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

It's ludicrous to me that Cas doesn't recognize Mary at all to begin with

I'm guessing this is from one of the extended promo videos (which I've been avoiding, I like teasers but not extended videos from just one episode).

So I just finished up season 6 and most of season 7 over the weekend, and when Sam & Dean track down Eve in the diner, she changes into Mary. Castiel and Bobby are brought into the diner while she is still Mary, and after she bites Dean, he says "Call you later, Mom". You can't tell me that Castiel doesn't know what she looks like. With those pictures he's been carrying around and/or left in his room?? Shenanigans.

Also on the "Mary's been in heaven for 30 years" comment, agree with @catrox14, even more shenanigans. By the time they see Ash (and remember him), he'd had about 3 years to be looking for Mary and you're telling me that Ash couldn't find her? Bah. There were so many more interesting things they could've come up with as to where she's been, and they choose this.

DittyDotDot · October 10, 2016

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Mary was in heaven for 30 years?

Nah, I'm calling shenanigans. Ash couldn't track Mary or John in s5 with his super tracker which would comport with Mary being a ghost in s1 which as we know ghosts only happen because they refuse to go with their reapers. Or at least that is what we've always been told. I could buy Amara plucking Mary out of the veil a lot more than Mary having been in Heaven this whole time.

If Mary was in Heaven, shouldn't Cas have been privy to that information at some point, especially in s9 when he was still going back and forth from Heaven and was the leader of the angels? It's ludicrous to me that Cas doesn't recognize Mary at all to begin with but him him not knowing she was in Heaven? Or if he did and he never told Dean and Sam to given them peace of mind? Oh that's gonna make me even more irritated. If Dean finds out Mary was in Heaven, welp, then cue Dean having the worst guilt-trip he's ever had.

Shenanigans, I say. SHE-NAN-I-GANS. /harumph

I agree, it doesn't track that she's even been in heaven at all. She said "no" to her reaper, that means she opted out of heaven, if you ask me. I could see her being granted a place in heaven after Home, but even then, I'm not sure it really works... .

I mean, I get that he's just saying that Mary's been out of the loop for 30 years, and Cass is always out of the loop, so maybe Misha just misspoke or it's his own theory on where Mary's been? Maybe the show doesn't even address where she's been specifically; maybe she doesn't actually know?

rue721 · October 10, 2016

If Mary has been in Heaven all this time...isn't that a little too much of a Buffy rip off?

Ordinarily, I would say that she's been in Purgatory since Home. She "died" as a spirit/supernatural creature, after all. And it would account for her having aged normally. Her hunting skills would also be sharp.

But it is both tragic and hilarious to think of her and Dean never crossing paths during the time they both would have been up there!

catrox14 · October 10, 2016

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

mean, I get that he's just saying that Mary's been out of the loop for 30 years, and Cass is always out of the loop, so maybe Misha just misspoke or it's his own theory on where Mary's been? Maybe the show doesn't even address where she's been specifically; maybe she doesn't actually know?

I hope this is the case, but I doubt it. I don't think they would allow Misha's interpretation if that's what it is to stand in a sneak peek interview if it's not a plot point now considering how crucial her status was in Dark Side of the Moon.

7 minutes ago, rue721 said:

But it is both tragic and hilarious to think of her and Dean never crossing paths during the time they both would have been up there!

I would buy her having been in Purgatory. I would buy her being anywhere other than Heaven. Heaven is inexplicable to me.

pixelcat · October 10, 2016

On 10/7/2016 at 3:05 PM, catrox14 said:

We have a Shaving People, Punting Things. Enjoy

I went and watched their other videos, I'm assuming "The Family Business" was their promo for S11? Had I seen this I would've lost my shit, this makes the season look AMAZING, compared to what we ended up with (glaring at you mytharc). Makes me worried S12 will end up the same way. I did love "Talking With Strangers" though!

DittyDotDot · October 10, 2016

8 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

I went and watched their other videos, I'm assuming "The Family Business" was their promo for S11? Had I seen this I would've lost my shit, this makes the season look AMAZING, compared to what we ended up with (glaring at you mytharc). Makes me worried S12 will end up the same way. I did love "Talking With Strangers" though!

These are promos made by some of the crew and not the show. Last year, it seemed the crew got a little fed up with the CW not doing promos and started making their own. I wholly support this sort of non-demonic rebelism! ;)

pixelcat · October 10, 2016

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

These are promos made by some of the crew and not the show. Last year, it seemed the crew got a little fed up with the CW not doing promos and started making their own. I wholly support this sort of non-demonic rebelism! ;)

Yeah, that I knew. They just make S11 look so damn good, and then I had to sit through "Amara grows up with Uncle Crowley." Sigh...

DittyDotDot · October 10, 2016

3 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

Yeah, that I knew. They just make S11 look so damn good, and then I had to sit through "Amara grows up with Uncle Crowley." Sigh...

It's funny because I wasn't particularly impressed with them, myself--I mean, there was nothing wrong with them and they were well done; they just come off to me as fan vids than actual promos, IMO--but I really support the crew doing it themselves anyway. I love how much the crew still loves working on the show and I love how much it shows in those videos.

MysteryGuest · October 10, 2016

My Heaven Hierarchy Spreadsheet might be flawed, but would Mary have gone to Purgatory? I thought that was reserved for the worst of the worst...monsters and such, not just ordinary people who might have given their reapers the slip? When Bobby ditched his reaper, he hung around until he turned vengeful, then was on his way to Heaven until Crowley interfered and sent him to hell. So wouldn't Mary's soul have gotten the same treatment once she sacrificed herself to save Sam? I know it still raises the issue of why Ash couldn't find her, but I don't think she'd have been in Purgatory. My guess is either hidden away in Heaven somewhere, or possibly the Empty.

We don't know much about the Empty, other than Billy intended to send Sam and Dean there for all eternity. Was it created just for them, or are there other souls there, that's the question? Is the Empty really empty?

rue721 · October 10, 2016

Maybe the Empty is an ironic nickname, and it's really full.

You know, like the SPN equivalent of nicknaming a giant linebacker type of guy "Tiny."

;)

DittyDotDot · October 10, 2016

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

My Heaven Hierarchy Spreadsheet might be flawed, but would Mary have gone to Purgatory? I thought that was reserved for the worst of the worst...monsters and such, not just ordinary people who might have given their reapers the slip? When Bobby ditched his reaper, he hung around until he turned vengeful, then was on his way to Heaven until Crowley interfered and sent him to hell. So wouldn't Mary's soul have gotten the same treatment once she sacrificed herself to save Sam? I know it still raises the issue of why Ash couldn't find her, but I don't think she'd have been in Purgatory. My guess is either hidden away in Heaven somewhere, or possibly the Empty.

I'm not sold on Purgatory either. I don't think it's for the worst of the worst, but is for monsters and, as far as I know, no ghosts have ever been sent there. They just hang around the veil until they go mad. When Mary burned herself up, I assumed she just didn't exist anymore--similar to what happens to ghosts when they burn their bones or whatever. For me, either she was in the veil, but completely powerless or she was in the Empty. Which I'd love it if the show said she was in the Empty because I have a few theories about that place, if the show ever chose to go there.

51 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I hope this is the case, but I doubt it. I don't think they would allow Misha's interpretation if that's what it is to stand in a sneak peek interview if it's not a plot point now considering how crucial her status was in Dark Side of the Moon.

Unless it's a total misdirect? I really don't know, but I can actually see the show not paying attention to the comment either way. I mean, basically Misha's just saying that he and Mary have something in common, where Mary's been isn't actually all that important in that context.

catrox14 · October 10, 2016

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Unless it's a total misdirect? I really don't know, but I can actually see the show not paying attention to the comment either way. I mean, basically Misha's just saying that he and Mary have something in common, where Mary's been isn't actually all that important in that context.

I don't think it's a misdirect myself. Dabb is completely missing the mark if he thinks where Mary has been is unimportant to the audience in general IMO. If anything,answering it through an interview gets him out of really having to explain anything.

Honestly, I'm starting to worry that the Horrible Duo has more influence than ever because they are Janice in Accounting and they just don't give a fuck (John Oliver reference). Then again Dabb wrong Bloodlines...sooooo he might not care about what's gone before either. I really want to know who came up with the idea of resurrecting Mary and why.

DittyDotDot · October 10, 2016

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dabb is completely missing the mark if he thinks where Mary has been is unimportant to the audience in general IMO. If anything,answering it through an interview gets him out of really having to explain anything.

That's not what I meant at all. I meant that they might not have caught the guffaw--if it even was a guffaw--because in the context of what Misha was saying it wasn't really important. Misha's entire point wasn't where Mary had been, but that Cass and Mary had something in common to bond over--they were both outsiders. I don't think Dabb necessarily thinks it's unimportant where Mary has been, but he has millions of questions to answer every day about so many different things, I can see how one comment could slip by unnoticed. Plus, we don't know how much control Dabb even has over these promo items--that seems to be more something the network does independent of the show. Perhaps Dabb was't even consulted on this little interview? I don't know, but I wasn't saying that Dabb--or the show--was saying anything at all, but could be a mistake, misdirect or a million other things.

Edited October 10, 2016 by DittyDotDot

catrox14 · October 10, 2016

I knew what you meant. I was just going further with my own thoughts built off your comment, not that YOU thought that of Dabb.

MysteryGuest · October 11, 2016

Since this was an interview quote and not a line of dialogue from a preview, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until we learn otherwise. Maybe Misha really was just making the point that she'd been "gone for 30 years", and there's no more to it than that. Unfortunately, there is precedent for it to be more than that with this show.

catrox14 · October 11, 2016

20 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Since this was an interview quote and not a line of dialogue from a preview, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until we learn otherwise. Maybe Misha really was just making the point that she'd been "gone for 30 years", and there's no more to it than that. Unfortunately, there is precedent for it to be more than that with this show.

Y'all will forgive me for being uber-skeptical given the track record we see at times. I agree with you that the precedent is there for it to be more which is kind of where my reservations and shenanigans calling hail from. I know Dabb has been with the show forever but who knows if his tendencies in the worst episodes like Bloodlines are his real first thoughts so to speak and Carver and Kripke kept him from going too far. Of course, Singer has been around from the get go so his influence may be more than any one else. I will be far more surprised if it's not exactly as Misha stated.

DittyDotDot · October 11, 2016

I'm just thinking back to when Singer attended Comic Con a few years ago and made a whole bunch of statements that kinda head scratchers--like they gave Crowley the ability to teleport because it was something special and unique to the King of Hell. Watch your own show, man, almost every demon has been able to teleport.

That's not to say I would be surprised if the show went against their own cannon on where Mary's been, I just find, when it comes to this show, one foot doesn't always know what the other is doing, so they trip over each other more-often-than-not.

Edited October 11, 2016 by DittyDotDot

mertensia · October 11, 2016

So Ash couldn't find her. Maybe Zachariah had any Winchester blood relations in a location Ash couldn't access.

SueB · October 11, 2016

First, there's no reason to believe Mary ditched her Reaper. "Where do you think angry spirits come from?" is what Tessa said, but that doesn't mean ALL ghosts made a choice. Certainly those stuck in the veil after the gates to Heaven were close didn't. But what about those with unfinished business? Do they ALL confront their Reaper? What about Molly from Road Kill? She didn't even KNOW she was a ghost. And when her business was done, they didn't burn her bones, she just vanished like going to heaven. Seems to me that ditching a Reaper is one way to become a ghost but not the only. So Mary may have been a ghost by ditching her Reaper, but maybe not. And whether or not she ditched her Reaper, I don't think Missouri saying 'she destroyed herself' is a definitive answer. Missouri knows she's gone, not where she went to. And saving the boys could EASILY be considered resolving her issues (like Molly). True, she went up in flames, but the visual of Bobby was not the same as his soul. (And THAT was redirected to Hell). So, there's no reason why she couldn't have gone to Heaven. But IF she did, I would EXPECT that either God or the Archangels wouldn't have just let her be hanging around like the rest of the dead. Both she and John may have been sequestered by God (who could do ANYTHING... his universe) or by the Archangels (because there's opportunity for mischief by opposition Angels). Who knows. The point is that Amara could get her from wherever she went and where she went could be wherever God or the Archangels wanted her to be. My money is on God because otherwise Zachariah would have dragged her out for REAL to torture the boys.

So... Mary going to heaven is not a "screwed up canon" IMO nor is it impossible for her to come from there. Between God possibly putting her where he wanted and Amara pulling her from wherever she was... meh. Do-able. It's why having God and Amara around all the time is not viable. But something as big as hiding Mary and John Winchester in order to keep them from being pawns in the Apocalypse seems viable for a God intervention (or again, Archangels... but I'm leaning toward the big guy).

MysteryGuest · October 11, 2016

I think the issue is with the 30 year comment and not specifically with her having been in heaven most recently. Her ghost was still in their house some 20 plus years after her death and I don't think your ghost can be one place and your soul in another. As for reaper or no reaper, I'm not sure we'll ever know that for sure. I could see her wanting to stick around to try to help her children and husband just like Bobby chose to stay, but she could absolutely just have been trapped there because of her violent death. I have to assume they're going to give us some sort of explanation as to where she's been and what she remembers, so we may only have a few days left to wait before all is revealed!

catrox14 · October 11, 2016

I think the show has been pretty consistent with it's ghost rules. I think all human souls face their reaper. They choose to stay or go. If the person doesn't go with their reaper, they don't get their body bac, thus they became a spirit and eventually become an angry spirit. It's a matter of time not a matter of IF, AFAIR.

IIRC, Ghost!Six (Sorry Tricia Helfer will always be Six to me LOL) had been on that road for years IIRC. So it seems to me she was already going mad which is why she didn't remember she was dead and had ditched her reaper. I figured she went off with her reaper at the end to wherever she was supposed to go.

The ghosts in the Veil were stuck because the reapers couldn't reap them because of what Metatron did closing off Heaven, not because they made a choice to stay behind. Kevin would have gone straight to Heaven if it had not been closed off.

IMO, Mary knew why she died. She knew the YED had come for Sam. She might not have realized until he put her on the ceiling but she knew. I think she ditched her reaper so she could stay in her home. IIRC, she only revealed herself when Sam got to the house because he was having visions. I don't think she was sending messages to Sam but Sam's psychic abilities led them back to the house. IMO, eventually she would have gone mad as well and become an angry spirit.

So for me, Mary having been in Heaven the entire 30 years just doesn't really add up when she was already a ghost.

ahrtee · October 11, 2016

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think the show has been pretty consistent with it's ghost rules. I think all human souls face their reaper. They choose to stay or go. If the person doesn't go with their reaper, they don't get their body bac, thus they became a spirit and eventually become an angry spirit. It's a matter of time not a matter of IF, AFAIR.

Sorry, not consistent at all. The show didn't even bring up the idea of reapers till IMTOD, so all of season 1 had ghosts with "unfinished business," taking it out on whoever they thought had done 'em wrong (hence, needing a salt and burn); but (as SueB said above) no one suggested they'd made a *deliberate* choice to stay just to get even (what about all the ghosts in the haunted asylum, including the evil doctor himself? Or the little kids who came to get Constance in the pilot? Why would a Woman in White ditch her reaper in the first place, when supposedly she was so overcome with grief she had killed herself?) Then, later, we had all the ghosts stuck in the house in "Of Grave Importance," with the implication that no one could find their bodies and so they were stuck. But honestly--reapers couldn't find them there? Because you can't tell me that *any* of the ghosts we saw there (except for the badguy) *chose* to be ghosts. Then, as late as 11.23, Sam and Dean went to *another* asylum to pick up souls for their bomb. So...insane people choose to stay behind/become ghosts?

Then, of course, there's a lot of inconsistency in the amount of time it supposedly takes to go insane once you're a ghost. Tessa, IIRC, just said something about "over the decades it'll drive you mad." The ghosts in the mansion went at various rates, but most seemed to have been there for at least a century before imploding. You're suggesting that Tricia Helfer was already mad and so ditched her reaper, but (supposedly) reapers come at or just before death, so she wouldn't have been nuts already (more like the nurse in Samarra, looking down on her body and going "really? Why?") Bobby, OTOH, started turning darkside pretty damn quickly, even if it was accelerated by wanting to kill Dick (pretty much all the "angry spirits" the boys took care of wanted to kill whoever had killed them, and you'd think Bobby would be better at control.)

About Mary--I don't think anyone should expect logic or consistency. We don't know that Mary was stuck in the house till "Home". Missouri said she'd been through the house right after the fire, and checked up on it over the years, and never sensed her presence. She *did* sense another presence when Sam and Dean brought her there in the ep, though she couldn't identify it, so there's no reason why she couldn't have sensed something at some point over the last 30 years. So...maybe Mary was in Heaven. Or just in some kind of limbo. Or in a different part of purgatory than the monsters. Or a different part of heaven, as SueB suggested. Point is, we can't wave at canon and say "that's not true. She couldn't have been there/done that/not done it." The writers are going to make the rules fit whatever they want it to be, and IMO they left themselves enough wiggle room over the years to do whatever they want. So all I can do is hope it's close enough to some kind of sense that I don't get thrown out of the story entirely (and throw something at the TV.) JMO.

DittyDotDot · October 11, 2016

3 hours ago, SueB said:

First, there's no reason to believe Mary ditched her Reaper. "Where do you think angry spirits come from?" is what Tessa said, but that doesn't mean ALL ghosts made a choice. Certainly those stuck in the veil after the gates to Heaven were close didn't. But what about those with unfinished business? Do they ALL confront their Reaper? What about Molly from Road Kill? She didn't even KNOW she was a ghost. And when her business was done, they didn't burn her bones, she just vanished like going to heaven. Seems to me that ditching a Reaper is one way to become a ghost but not the only. So Mary may have been a ghost by ditching her Reaper, but maybe not. And whether or not she ditched her Reaper, I don't think Missouri saying 'she destroyed herself' is a definitive answer. Missouri knows she's gone, not where she went to. And saving the boys could EASILY be considered resolving her issues (like Molly). True, she went up in flames, but the visual of Bobby was not the same as his soul. (And THAT was redirected to Hell). So, there's no reason why she couldn't have gone to Heaven. But IF she did, I would EXPECT that either God or the Archangels wouldn't have just let her be hanging around like the rest of the dead. Both she and John may have been sequestered by God (who could do ANYTHING... his universe) or by the Archangels (because there's opportunity for mischief by opposition Angels). Who knows. The point is that Amara could get her from wherever she went and where she went could be wherever God or the Archangels wanted her to be. My money is on God because otherwise Zachariah would have dragged her out for REAL to torture the boys.

So... Mary going to heaven is not a "screwed up canon" IMO nor is it impossible for her to come from there. Between God possibly putting her where he wanted and Amara pulling her from wherever she was... meh. Do-able. It's why having God and Amara around all the time is not viable. But something as big as hiding Mary and John Winchester in order to keep them from being pawns in the Apocalypse seems viable for a God intervention (or again, Archangels... but I'm leaning toward the big guy).

Personally, I was not saying it was going against cannon unless they really are saying Mary was in Heaven for 30 years. IMO, she could've only been there for the last 11 years, not 30. I haven't yet decided if the rest of it lines up, that will depend on how the show spins it.

But, I disagree about ghosts. I believe they've been pretty consistent over the years that you have a choice to stay or go--unless they made a deal, of course, then you don't have a choice--but everyone else, I believe, all face a reaper. Granted, they didn't know that back in S1, but the ghosts in S1 seem pretty consistent with the lore. They had unfinished business they couldn't let go of. I think it's reasonable to assume they told their reaper "no" in order to stay and finish that business. We didn't see Molly say "no" to her reaper, but we never see that as it's not generally important to the episode. Just because she didn't know she was dead doesn't mean that she didn't tell her reaper to bugger off--quite possibly she did it because she didn't believe she was dead, for all we know. They didn't need to burn her bones in the end, because she wasn't tied to her bones or any DNA, her hangup was her desire to see her husband one more time. Once she let go of her emotional connection she was able to move on.

But, we still don't know what that "moving on" actually means for ghosts. Same with burning the bones, we don't know exactly what happens to them. I believe every time it's been brought up on the show, the answer has always been they don't know. All they seem to know for sure is they don't come back.

Are we sure Bobby's soul would've went to Heaven if Crowley hadn't co-opted it to Hell? Sure, he went to Heaven in the end, but was that because of the trials and Naomi "granting" him a place in Heaven? For all we know, his soul could've remained right where it was in the veil, just powerless, if Crowley hadn't intervened. I'm not even sure John's soul made it to heaven after he escaped hell in S2. Seems a bit too neat and tidy one can sell their soul and fulfill their end of the bargain, then climb out of hell and get a free pass to heaven. Same with if you ditch your reaper and then later decide to change your mind, not sure you get take-backsies here? I really don't know, the show has never explored this, as far as I know.

ETA: I think it's pretty reasonable to think Mary did ditch her reaper. Yellow Eyes showed up, and just like Dean in In My Time Of Dying, I think it's very reasonable to think she wanted to stay and help her family. Unfortunately, John took the family and hit the road while she was still tied to the house. So that didn't work out for her until 23 years later when they came back home.

Edited October 11, 2016 by DittyDotDot

catrox14 · October 11, 2016

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Then, of course, there's a lot of inconsistency in the amount of time it supposedly takes to go insane once you're a ghost. Tessa, IIRC, just said something about "over the decades it'll drive you mad.

That to me is not inconsistency in the lore because they left it ambiguous as to how much time it would take each spirit. It could happen the moment they die and don't go with the reaper. Or it could take hundreds of years or any time in between. My point was that Tessa said all spirits will at some point become an angry spirit if they do not go with their reapers because they can't let go. IMO, that is the important aspect and has remained consistent.

Here's what Tessa said.

Quote

T!REAPER
Well, like you said. There's always a choice. I can't make you come with me. But you're not getting back in your body. And that's just facts. So yes, you can stay. You'll stay here for years. Disembodied, scared, and over the decades it'll probably drive you mad. Maybe you'll even get violent.

!DEAN
What are you saying?

T!REAPER
Dean. How do you think angry spirits are born? They can't let go and they can't move on. And you're about to become one. The same thing you hunt.

That's why I think Mary ditched her reaper and stayed behind because she couldn't let go and she couldn't move on.

As for Tricia Helfer, I didn't say that IS what happened. I said that's I what I figured happened, MY theory. We don't know where she went or how or why. I took the bright light as her going to Heaven, so if she did how did she get there without a reaper or God (like Chuck did with Kevin in 11.22)? I don't know. That was just my spec.

DittyDotDot · October 11, 2016

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Then, of course, there's a lot of inconsistency in the amount of time it supposedly takes to go insane once you're a ghost.

I don't think this has been inconsistent. For a ghost to power up, they need pure emotion of some sort and anger is the easiest emotion to tap into. Once they start tapping that well, though, they can't seem to turn it off. So, the ghosts who work at it, seem to deteriorate faster than the ghosts that just hang around patiently waiting. There is no set time limit, it all depends on the individual and how motivated they are.

Edited October 11, 2016 by DittyDotDot

ahrtee · October 11, 2016

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My point was that Tessa said all spirits will at some point become an angry spirit if they do not go with their reapers because they can't let go. IMO, that is the important aspect and has remained consistent.

Here's what Tessa said.

T!REAPER
Well, like you said. There's always a choice. I can't make you come with me. But you're not getting back in your body. And that's just facts. So yes, you can stay. You'll stay here for years. Disembodied, scared, and over the decades it'll probably drive you mad. Maybe you'll even get violent.

As for Tricia Helfer, I didn't say that IS what happened. I said that's I what I figured happened, MY theory. We don't know where she went or how or why. I took the bright light as her going to Heaven, so if she did how did she get there without a reaper or God (like Chuck did with Kevin in 11.22)? I don't know. That was just my spec.

(emphasis mine): I don't read that as Tessa saying *all* spirits will become angry spirits. She said "probably" and "maybe." It's the ones who DO go mad/get violent that become angry spirits.

None of the ghosts stuck in the creepy mansion were angry. None of the ones in the asylum were, either--they just wanted to tell someone about the hidden room. You can say that maybe in some unspecified time (hundreds of years from now) they will become violent, but that's not what Tessa said, so I'm going with the idea that only some do. It's just that the Winchesters only ever had to deal with the angry ones, because the others weren't making any trouble for anyone.

About Tricia Helfer--I also didn't say that IS what happened. You can see I said "you're suggesting" which does imply that it's your theory. Sorry if it sounded like something else.

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it's reasonable to assume they told their reaper "no" in order to stay and finish that business.

We'll just have to disagree on that. While I agree that most who did become angry spirits had a particular reason to want to stick around and I can see them screaming "get away from me," when faced with a reaper, there are too many others (like the ones stuck in the mansion) who didn't seem to have the choice offered to them. But YMMV.

DittyDotDot · October 11, 2016

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

We'll just have to disagree on that. While I agree that most who did become angry spirits had a particular reason to want to stick around and I can see them screaming "get away from me," when faced with a reaper, there are too many others (like the ones stuck in the mansion) who didn't seem to have the choice offered to them. But YMMV.

Are you talking about the mansion in S7? All those ghosts were deteriorating, as I recall. That's not to say they all were violent; being driven mad, doesn't mean you're violent, some people go "blank" in the face of madness. We generally only see the ones who go violent because they're causing problems and/or killing people and that's why Sam and Dean show up. Most of the spirits in the veil probably just silently deteriorate like the ghosts in that mansion were doing. Like I said, I think it all depends upon motivation.

Something outside of the natural order was going on in that mansion, though, due to the one ghost feeding on the souls of the other ghosts, so I'm not sure it's an example to go by. But maybe it is?

catrox14 · October 11, 2016

I took Tessa using probably and maybe for Dean just to soften the message for him, not that it meant it wouldn't happen.

ahrtee · October 11, 2016

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Are you talking about the mansion in S7? All those ghosts were deteriorating, as I recall. That's not to say they all were violent; being driven mad, doesn't mean you're violent, some people go "blank" in the face of madness. We generally only see the ones who go violent because they're causing problems and/or killing people and that's why Sam and Dean show up. Most of the spirits in the veil probably just silently deteriorate like the ghosts in that mansion were doing. Like I said, I think it all depends upon motivation.

Something outside of the natural order was going on in that mansion, though, due to the one ghost feeding on the souls of the other ghosts, so I'm not sure it's an example to go by. But maybe it is?

Yes, I was talking about the mansion, and IA all the ghosts there were deteriorating, and all at different rates. But what I was talking about was not going mad so much as being given the choice to go or stay and choosing to stay. None of them seemed to have any unfinished business and none seemed to *want* to stay, especially what's'ername the hunter who was honestly appalled that Bobby had ditched *his* reaper. I don't see them being given the choice, so I don't think we can just assume that all ghosts chose to ditch their reapers. But as you said, it was outside the natural order.

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I took Tessa using probably and maybe for Dean just to soften the message for him, not that it meant it wouldn't happen.

Wouldn't you think if you were trying to convince someone (especially Dean) that you would be *more* absolute instead of less? Telling him it *would* happen in no uncertain terms? She didn't soften any other part of the message--that the war would go on without him, that he had no say in whatever would happen to Sam or John from that point on?

catrox14 · October 11, 2016

Can't ghosts also be controlled by witches & demons? Isn't that why the Fancy Lady ghost was stuck because they were being kept against their will by a witch or a demon?
I can't quite remember.

DittyDotDot · October 11, 2016

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Can't ghosts also be controlled by witches & demons? Isn't that why the Fancy Lady ghost was stuck because they were being kept against their will by a witch or a demon?

No, they were stuck because the one guy killed them and was draining power from them so he could power up. He stashed their bodies away so they were still tied to the house and would burn their bones to get rid of them when they disobeyed, but I don't think he was a witch (or a demon). Just a jackass who enjoyed watching the torment of others.

Why they didn't get reapers, it was never stated; Annie just said she never saw hers. I finally decided it was because what was being done to them was outside of the natural order, so no reaper showed up to collect their soul.

It seems to me, the main reason reapers schlep souls in this universe is because the souls power Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. Reapers aren't too concerned with who gets that power, they're just the delivery drivers. So, if a soul is being drained of it's power, none of the realms would probably bother putting in an order for a driver to go pick that soul up.

Hee! I do so love a tortured metaphor!

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