Spoilers With Speculation

[trxr4kids]

Heh, would you still watch if the hole was CGI'd wonderfully? ;)

I hope not although since we've seen Sam's hell hole and Dean's earth portal I guess they probably figure it's Casifers turn to be sucked some where equally lame, like the empty. *Sigh*

[Aeryn13]

Cas got sucked into Purgatory already so it`s not like he didn`t have his turn.

 

Odd-numbered Seasons, baring Season 1, usually end with one brother "dying". Season 3 Dean got sucked into hell, Season 5 Sam got his SuperSaviour on and got sucked into the Cage, Season 7 Dean got sucked into Purgatory, Season 9 Dean kinda just died and became a demon, he didn`t change the plane of existance and now Season 11 looks like a carbon copy of Suck Song.

 

If anyone defeats Amara and Lucifer in one fell swoop all on his own and gets sucked into the Empty, it will be Sam. Dean will stand around like a witness and do nothing. The U-Boot episode was IMO the template for his "role". Or maybe stay back in the bunker, ironing Sam`s shirts.     . 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

I hope not although since we've seen Sam's hell hole and Dean's earth portal I guess they probably figure it's Casifers turn to be sucked some where equally lame, like the empty. *Sigh*

 

Sorry, I was just being silly. I understood what you meant.

 

I have a secret hope that all of them (Dean, Cass and Sam) get sucked into the Empty and S12  is them wandering around trying to get out of nothing. ;)

[dragonsbite]

Dean will stand around like a witness and do nothing...Or maybe stay back in the bunker, ironing Sam`s shirts.     . 

 

<small voice>  I'd watch a season of that. </small voice>

[trxr4kids]

Cas got sucked into Purgatory already so it`s not like he didn`t have his turn.

 

 Or maybe stay back in the bunker, ironing Sam`s shirts.     . 

But we never actually saw Cas get sucked into a crappy CGI hole and wouldn't that make for riveting entertainment (insert dramatic eye roll here)?

Funny you mention the ironing his shirts because Jared mentioned an upcoming scene at NashCon where that is exactly what happens.

Sorry, I was just being silly. I understood what you meant.

 

I have a secret hope that all of them (Dean, Cass and Sam) get sucked into the Empty and S12  is them wandering around trying to get out of nothing. ;)

No worries I got you were just goofing, sorry that didn't translate to my response. Question if they all get sucked into the empty can it still be called the empty? ; )

[catrox14]

I hope Dean doesn't have anything to do with it, been there done that and he shouldn't have to do it again.

 

 

The thing is that Dean is being blamed for this in equal measure as Sam. Even though he didn't actually remove the Mark, Dean blames himself for taking it on in the first place. He became a mass murderer because of the Mark.  Essentially Amara made his life a living Hell for 2 seasons and he became a demon for his troubles. Hell, he deserves the kill just for vengeance alone!

 

It seems to me, unless Dean says outright...'"You know what Sam. If you guys had never removed the Mark in the first place, The Darkness would still be locked away. If I hadn't killed Death, you'd be dead and I'd be in the Empty and Amara is locked away. I killed a lot of people with the Mark, but I couldn't/wouldn't kill you because you're my brother. And even after I killed Death you still had some time to  stop the spell and we could have found some other way. Yeah I took on the Mark and I was willing to take go into outer space but this part is not on me. You and Cas can figure it out ". 

 

But of course, Dean is NEVER going to say that because he took on the Mark and thinks he's equally culpable. If he thinks he's equally culpable and the show said in 11.01 that he was just as culpable then he should have the same shot to dispatch her as Sam.

 

I am literally unable to think of any reason for Dean to be left out of the final fight. He was responsible for protecting her until she became grown, against his will I might add. For me, Dean MUST be involved in her final dispatch, otherwise, he might as well not even been in this entire season.

[Aeryn13]

 

Funny you mention the ironing his shirts because Jared mentioned an upcoming scene at NashCon where that is exactly what happens.

 

That`s why I used it as an example. Maybe that`s the extant of purpose the writers see in the character?

 

 

For me, Dean MUST be involved in her final dispatch, otherwise, he might as well not even been in this entire season.

 

I think it will turn out he didn`t need to be. 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Diane]

The thing is that Dean is being blamed for this in equal measure as Sam. Even though he didn't actually remove the Mark, Dean blames himself for taking it on in the first place. He became a mass murderer because of the Mark.  Essentially Amara made his life a living Hell for 2 seasons and he became a demon for his troubles. Hell, he deserves the kill just for vengeance alone!

 

It seems to me, unless Dean says outright...'"You know what Sam. If you guys had never removed the Mark in the first place, The Darkness would still be locked away. If I hadn't killed Death, you'd be dead and I'd be in the Empty and Amara is locked away. I killed a lot of people with the Mark, but I couldn't/wouldn't kill you because you're my brother. And even after I killed Death you still had some time to  stop the spell and we could have found some other way. Yeah I took on the Mark and I was willing to take go into outer space but this part is not on me. You and Cas can figure it out ". 

 

But of course, Dean is NEVER going to say that because he took on the Mark and thinks he's equally culpable. If he thinks he's equally culpable and the show said in 11.01 that he was just as culpable then he should have the same shot to dispatch her as Sam.

 

I am literally unable to think of any reason for Dean to be left out of the final fight. He was responsible for protecting her until she became grown, against his will I might add. For me, Dean MUST be involved in her final dispatch, otherwise, he might as well not even been in this entire season.

All I meant was that he should not be taking on the MOC again, not that he shouldn't be involved in the final fight, which I think he should be. And I am listening to the panel in DC right now and Jared says that they talk about the MOC in one of the next couple of episodes. So who knows.

[rue721]

I would be down for SPN pulling a Once Upon a Time and having the central characters all transported to some other "plane of existence" and forced to complete a quest or two there in order to get back to Earth...but my money is still on them getting sucked into Heaven (rather than the Empty), if they get sucked anywhere.

 

Probably God is going to ascend them up there at the end of the season. I mean, if God comes down to Earth (as Chuck), then he's probably not going to leave again without the Winchesters. And wherever God takes them, they'll probably start out loving it but quickly begin to feel suffocated/trapped and attempt a jailbreak. Or maybe someone will come and get them because he needs their help (like Bobby or Gabriel or somebody?).

[DittyDotDot]

Question if they all get sucked into the empty can it still be called the empty? ; )

 

Perhaps then it will be called "The Place Formerly Known As The Empty"! ;)

 

 

ETA: Or, "The Not So Empty"

Edited April 4, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

The Still Basically Empty (so says the pessimist)

The At Least Marginally Fuller (so says the optimist).

[shang yiet]

Since when did Sam blame Dean for the MoC and killing Death? It's in contrast to Dean blaming Sam for releasing Lucifer. And who took on the MoC by himself in the first place?

[catrox14]

Since when did Sam blame Dean for the MoC and killing Death? It's in contrast to Dean blaming Sam for releasing Lucifer. And who took on the MoC by himself in the first place?

 

I think you misread or misunderstood my post. I didn't say any of that.  I'm not talking about Lucifer...

 

Dean had ZERO to do with the Mark being removed which why the Darkness was released.  Death's death just kept Dean from being sent to outer space. Separate events that were unrelated to the Darkness being freed but conflated within the narrative to have equal importance so that the boys have to fix it together.

[Aeryn13]

 

Separate events that were unrelated to the Darkness being freed but conflated within the narrative to have equal importance so that the boys have to fix it together.

 

But that is only the blame, the blame can be shared. Dean got his shared blame for being a meaning and driving Sam to Ruby back then. That doesn`t mean he gets to share in the fixing things and the glory. That is the redemption. Sam can have that on his own. Sharing the bad stuff = fine, sharing the good stuff not so much. 

 

Now is this a play-by-play Season 5 redo? Yes. Does that mean they will not do it? I don`t think so.

 

Maybe Sam gets the MOC because now it is used for a heroic purpose and he is the right brother. That is not the first time they have done stuff like that. And the Season so far has certainly build up to that. We`re getting readied for it really with the portrayal of each character.

[catrox14]

 

But that is only the blame, the blame can be shared. Dean got his shared blame for being a meaning and driving Sam to Ruby back then. That doesn`t mean he gets to share in the fixing things and the glory. That is the redemption. Sam can have that on his own. Sharing the bad stuff = fine, sharing the good stuff not so much.

 

Right that''s basically my point.

 

Dean deserves to be part of the solution since he blames himself for taking the Mark on in the first place. He deserves that redemption arc. Of course it turns out that he was actually protecting the universe but he didn't know it when he took on the Mark. So in his mind, yeah he totally fucked up by taking it on. 

 

Hoo boy, Sam taking on the Mark has been my biggest worry. I've thought it would happen all along and I won't be the least surprised if it happens. I'll be fucking pissed. 

[Aeryn13]

I know you are talking about fairness but the show or rather the writers have been going out of their way this Season to tell you how they see the brothers respectively. Their value, their purpose and their character. 

 

And Sam is the saviour, the near Jesus with apparent superstrength. Dean is a witness who stands around with not really many admirable character traits. The entire Season they`ve told us this, why would it not come to fruition in the Finale? After all, it`s the fault of the individual fan if they like the wrong brother and want more than a Gary Stu fanfic . They couldn`t tell you clearer who you should like and root for and if that guy is the sole saviour of the universe in the Finale, they have just followed through on their narrative.  

Edited April 4, 2016 by Aeryn13

[trxr4kids]

Perhaps then it will be called "The Place Formerly Known As The Empty"! ;)

 

I'm voting for an unpronounceable Enochian sigil, which will be referred to as you stated above or in a shriek like sound effect that shatters glass. I feel like it should be symbolized in various shades of purpley and glittery bedazzled effects for maximum impact. It's probably funnier in Enochian.

[catrox14]

Well now I'm going to be disappointed if it doesn't look like this and Prince is Not the Guardian of the Formerly Empty

[trxr4kids]

It needs more cowbell ( sparkly, purpley cowbell ). ; )

[catrox14]

It needs more cowbell ( sparkly, purpley cowbell ). ; )

 

Well, I'll keep looking LOL

[DittyDotDot]

I'm voting for an unpronounceable Enochian sigil, which will be referred to as you stated above or in a shriek like sound effect that shatters glass. I feel like it should be symbolized in various shades of purpley and glittery bedazzled effects for maximum impact. It's probably funnier in Enochian.

 

Everything is funnier in Enochian! ;)

[catrox14]

Okay I know I've been saying I don't want God in the show...but if it was Prince...(which of course will never happen I'm just saying).

 

Prince as God in the SPN universe...would make me very happy.

[auntvi]

Like Alanis Morissette as God in Dogma. Only much better music.

[Demented Daisy]

My guess is they will discuss what the Mark is, but no one will actually be wearing the Mark again.

 

 

Merciful Chuck, I hope not.  Otherwise, the entire MoC storyline has been a waste of time.  Right back to the status quo.

[trxr4kids]

Merciful Chuck, I hope not.  Otherwise, the entire MoC storyline has been a waste of time.  Right back to the status quo.

Kinda like Dean going to hell, breaking the 1st seal, being the righteous man and Michael's true vessel and the only one who could end the nonpocalypse. Surely this show wouldn't do that, again I mean. I hope to Chuck with you but it wouldn't be unprecedented.

 

On a positive note and on topic as opposed to my various ramblings.....

So Chuck returns based on every spoiler. I'm thinking that they don't really declare him God despite the hints and they just leave it open to interpretation as this show is wont to do. I'd be fine with that.

[Demented Daisy]

Kinda like Dean going to hell, breaking the 1st seal, being the righteous man and Michael's true vessel and the only one who could end the nonpocalypse. Surely this show wouldn't do that, again I mean. I hope to Chuck with you but it wouldn't be unprecedented.

 

 

I think we're talking about different things.  When I mean back to the status quo, I mean that if someone gets the Mark to lock away the Darkness, then everything that happened was completely inconsequential.  Everything that has happened as a result of Dean taking the Mark made no difference to the world or the characters.  People died, but people die every day.  

 

If someone takes the Mark, then none of them (possibly including God) even came up with a better plan for locking the Darkness away.  It's just the same leaky Mark, corrupting the poor soul who takes it on.  What a waste of time.  At least with the Apocalypse-that-wasn't, some of the characters grew and learned things about themselves.  I'm not seeing that in the Carver years.  But mileage varies.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, I for one do not want anyone taking the Mark back, but I especially do not want Sam doing it.  Dean was willing to keep the Mark for all eternity as long as it meant he wouldn't hurt anyone else, so I'll be pissed if they now give it to Sam to save the day.  We spent an entire season getting rid of the damn thing, we do not need to go back there.  

 

I'm going to remain optimistic that both Sam and Dean will play a role in ridding the world of Amara and Lucifer.  This season has had them working together pretty consistently, so I'm hopeful that will continue.  I know Dean thinks he won't be able to help get rid of Amara, but I hope he's wrong.  I do think that something is going happen with Cas, though.  I'm just not sure what.  God has intervened on Cas' behalf a number of times, so maybe he will again.

[SueB]

I think we learn about the Mark from God. And God is Chuck. And that this will be evident.  I think no one but Dean has the connection to Amara and no one is going to step in and take Dean's place in the finale.

 

And since we have a S12, I imagine we will be debating "what the hell just happened" for four months. No way is it anything but a cliffhanger. That's the route they've gone every season (including S5... because Sam showing up MADE it a cliffhanger). 

 

Of course these are just my opinions.

[catrox14]

 

I think we learn about the Mark from God. And God is Chuck. And that this will be evident.

 

No offense but I hope you are wrong, LOL. I think it will be YUUUGE mistake for the show to reveal Chuck is God or make it evident. If they hadn't gotten a s11...maybe I could see it, but then where do they go after God.  Unless Dean hunts God...LOL like he always promised...and Dean does keep his promises...

[rue721]

If Chuck turns out to be God, and the show doesn't use that opportunity to play, "What if God Was One of Us," I will RAGEQUIT.

[SueB]

If Chuck turns out to be God, and the show doesn't use that opportunity to play, "What if God Was One of Us," I will RAGEQUIT.

 

Well, I want the song but I don't want any RAGEQUITTING if we don't get it. I enjoy your comments waaaaaaaaay too much for that.

[rue721]

Naw, I wouldn't really RAGEQUIT. Just trying to engage in some hyperbolic emotional blackmail, SueB -- what did you have to go and ruin it for?!

Edited April 5, 2016 by rue721

[catrox14]

For some reason I thought they used that song in the show before...or maybe I'm totally thinking of something else

[SueB]

Naw, I wouldn't really RAGEQUIT. Just trying to engage in some hyperbolic emotional blackmail, SueB -- what did you have to go and ruin it for?!

*slinks away in shame*

[rue721]

My only other request is that if Destiel ever becomes canon, the show will commemorate the moment with this:

 

 

ETA:

Btw, did you guys notice that that video was produced by McG? How funny/weird is that?

Edited April 5, 2016 by rue721

[shang yiet]

I agree Dean rightfully shares some of the blame for this current mess since he took on the Mark in the first place. Not 'he blamed himself', he is to be blamed, period. However, I hope Sam gets to play a big part in stopping Amara since it seems her appearance is mostly Sam's fault.

 

I don't need a return of the MoC and same old storyline. I hope the writers have some new ideas.

[Myrelle]

At this point and IMO, who gets the blame is less of a question than who will get the BDH moment when Amara is taken out. This will inform some as to whether the season will be viewed as either tolerable or not-this is the core/source of the apprehension that I'm feeling from those that I know and discuss the show with now. And for no few of those it will also make a difference as to whether they continue watching the show or not. Dean has been far too passive this season where it concerns Amara for many and if he's relegated to the sidelines again or even simply used as bait in the big fight, it's not going to be enough. Dean has to be in on the resolution of that storyline in a much bigger way than that because the storyline started with Dean at the very center of it; comparable even to Sam's place in the Apocalypse storyline, so just being the support system or the bait while someone else takes on the heavy lifting is not going to cut it this time. And it can certainly be argued that it really does feel like this is where they're headed what with all the witness parallels for Dean, not to mention the stupid and redundant Dean has to learn to let Sam go lessons that they've served up yet again in the second half of this season. The writing history on this, at least, cannot be denied. IMO, in order for there to be any real change, Dean would have to refuse to take that particular "lesson" to heart this time, and in all honesty, I wish he would because I'm sick to death of these writers teaching it to him just so they can regress him back to it whenever they want Sam, and only! Sam, to be the BDH.  

 

The show has been relegated to the DVR for the rest of the season by no few of the people that I still discuss this show with for that very reason. It's now just become a question of whether they want to even have the show continue to take up space on their DVRs. They are not the type to flounce. They would just remove it from their DVRs. Personally, I would like to return to watching the show live again which I would if they would just write the characters as at least equal protagonists when it comes to the BDH moments(ie., getting the kill, sacrificing themselves) of these multi-season long myth-arcs and yes, especially because this one started out with Dean, and only! Dean, at the very center of it with the MOC.

[Bessie]

I am in the enviable position of loving both main characters. As long as they're both present in the takedown of Amara and Lucifer, I don't care who gets the BDH moment. And, bonus for me, I won't have to stop watching the show!

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if Cas got the BDH moment.

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, now that would be nice and kinda awesome. They've never done that before! ;)

 

 

ETA: I'm amending that...perhaps no one gets a BDH moment and Amara lives. Now that would change the landscape of the show, if you ask me. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

They've never done that before! ;)

 

I think Castiel has gotten at least one BDH moment: the season 9 finale where he defeated Metatron, and one medium sized one: saving Sam from dying in season 7. I know that mileage varies, but for me, each of Team Free Will have gotten at least one BDH moment.

 

For me what they haven't done before definitively perhaps is have all of Team Free Will have a BDH moment together*, but depending on how they did it, it might be kind of cheesy, so I can see it not happening.

 

* As in all in the same place and helping. I guess season 7 came close with the defeat of Dick Roman and his plans, but the team didn't get to be together when it happened.

[Aeryn13]

 

As long as they're both present in the takedown of Amara and Lucifer,

 

Being present can easily mean standing (or kneeling) around and doing nothing. That still counts. It`s like if my house was on fire and the firemen showed up but didn`t do anything. They would certainly still be "present". But if they weren`t doing anything, I`d most certainly think they could just as well fuck off or never have come. Or, if only one attempted to put out the fire or help in any way, why would I need the useless ones doing nothing? 

[Bessie]

Being present can easily mean standing (or kneeling) around and doing nothing. That still counts.

I know some posters feel that Dean had nothing to do in Swan Song, which is exactly why I worded it the way I did. If Sam or Dean has a parallel role to Dean's in Swan Song, I'm fine with that. But I didn't think he did nothing.

[Aeryn13]

Well, if Dean did it, he would have the same role. But I doubt Sam will be possessed this time and have to overcome something so Dean likely doesn`t need to drive a car to him. And if it is just a "you are the greatest most awesomest hero and can defeat Amara, Lucifer and likely God himself", then Dean can do that before Sam leaves for the battlefield. I mean, why would Dean need to come and just stand around? Just to gawk?

 

Sam would probably forbid this. He can drive the car himself and I don`t think he has to bring any heavy objects that he would need a valet to carry them for him. Either Dean has a function there or they have no reason to waste screentime on him in the "defeat Amara" scene. Knowing this show, he could be there and they wouldn`t waste screentime, other than a "Sam is so great, I`m so dejected and worthless" reaction shot after the important business has concluded.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

I know some posters feel that Dean had nothing to do in Swan Song, which is exactly why I worded it the way I did. If Sam or Dean has a parallel role to Dean's in Swan Song, I'm fine with that. But I didn't think he did nothing.

I also don't think he did nothing. I am a fan of Swan Song (UO much?!) and felt Dean played a big part in it. I also wasn't in the fandom back then so I didn't read a million disappointed posts before and after the episode. I really think being in the fandom makes us a lot harder to please. My husband (who isn't in the fandom) loves the show (not as much as me) and he rarely complains about anything, and certainly not to the point of the "message boards". He pretty much likes every episode, some a little better than others. Its great watching it with no preconceived notion. Some people hate the episode even before they see it! I like to keep an open mind and pathetic as it sounds as long as I get Sam and Dean (well mostly Dean) in my home once a week I am happy.

Edited April 5, 2016 by MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND

[MysteryGuest]

Well, we are in the enviable position of having two Big Bads this season, one for both Sam and Dean.  I'm hoping neither one of them carries over into next season.  I think they were both a bust for the most part.

 

I didn't mind Swan Song, and I really didn't think Dean was cheated out of anything.  Having him jump in the hole with Sam/Lucifer, or having him kill Sam/Lucifer would not have been how I'd have wanted it to play out.  It's not an episode I watch often because it's depressing, but I don't dislike it.  In fact, there are parts I like quite a bit.

[Demented Daisy]

Super-wiki collection of links to spoilers on episodes:

 

11.20

 

11.21

 

11.22

 

Nothing on the finale yet, other than it was written by Dabbs and directed by Sgriccia.

[catrox14]

Sneak peek from Hell's Angel

 

http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/03/supernatural-episode-1118-hells-angel_31.html

 

 

Sigh...so instead of Dean or Sam remembering they actually talked to Joshua the confidante of God in Dark Side of the Moon...we get...

Crowley: It's the Horn of Joshua

Sam: (derisively skeptical): Joshua.....as in the Joshua that won the Battle of Jericho..?" .

 

Dean: "So what, this is some kind of grudge match between you and Lucifer?"  As though, they don't know know that Crowley has had a grudge match with Lucifer the ENTIRE TIME they've known Crowley??

 

I'm seriously prepared for all the LOLcanon. I have a bottle of Bushmill's at the ready. LOL

Edited April 6, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Time for TVLine's May Sweeps Scorecard!  I figure Supernatural could be in the following categories:

 

Fatalities: 14  (Wow, it's gonna be a deadly year for network TV.)

 

Possible Fatalities: 11

 

Resurrections/Big Returns: 10

 

Number of Time Warps/Jumps: 1

 

ETA  Remember, it's not just the season finale that these categories cover.  It's May Sweeps, which covers April 28th to May 25th.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[Demented Daisy]

https://www.facebook.com/officialmisha/videos/1100244526664220/

 

Really interesting video with Misha, Rob Benedict, and Jerry Wanek.  Touring a set they're currently filming on.  While talking about some panels they had built, Wanek said that one of them will look "very familiar".  Hmmm.  (ETA  He later mentions that they took some things from the Men of Letters set, so maybe that's what he was referring to, but they acted a bit mysterious about the whole thing.)

 

Also, a bit about styrofoam pillars painted to look like concrete.  You know, so they can throw misbehaving angels around.  Which makes me think that Lucifer still hasn't left Cas by episode 22 or 23.  :-(  Also, who's throwing that angel?  Amara?  Or Chuck?

Edited April 7, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[Demented Daisy]

I'm beginning to wonder if God hasn't already intervened on humanity's behalf against Amara.  How have all of these Hand of God weapons been found?  Why weren't any of them discovered during the Apocalypse or the angel civil war?  I'm sure Castiel and Raphael would have loved to get their hands on them.

 

It's just a bit of a coincidence, that's all.