Spoilers With Speculation

[ILoveReading]

Quote

“A Most Holy Man” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

DIVINE INTERVENTION - Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) are close to collecting everything they need to open a rift into the apocalyptic world and possibly rescuing Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and Jack (Alexander Calvert). The one missing ingredient leads the Winchesters to a black market for religious relics where everything is not always as it seems.

Amanda Tapping directed the episode written by Robert Singer & Andrew Dabb (#1315).
 

https://www.spoilertv.com/2018/02/supernatural-episode-1315-most-holy-man_16.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.spoilertv.com/2018/02/supernatural-episode-1315-most-holy-man_16.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

So my thoughts that Cas/Misha won't be in the episode and thus not the holy man is pretty much confirmed :) 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.spoilertv.com/2018/02/supernatural-episode-1315-most-holy-man_16.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Collecting everything they need?  Um what?

o I guess this also tells us that they don't get one open in the next episode. LOL

Look, did Dean have his memory erased at some point? Is he just ignoring Billie's admonishment? I mean yes they already opened but come on.  Did he ever tell Sam that she told him/them  to not do that? 

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So my thoughts that Cas/Misha won't be in the episode and thus not the holy man is pretty much confirmed :) 

Meh. Doesn't mean anything. The press release for 13.3 made no mention of Castiel and he appeared at the end when Jack resurrected him.

Quote

SUPERNATURAL 13.03 “Patience”: When her friend is murdered by a wraith (guest star Jon Cor) with a taste for psychics, Missouri (guest star Loretta Devine) enlists the help of Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Jody (guest star Kim Rhodes) to protect her granddaughter, Patience (guest star Clark Backo), who has no idea she shares her grandmother’s trait and could be next on the wraith’s hit list. Meanwhile, Sam (Jared Padalecki) continues to work with Jack (Alexander Calvert) on learning how to control his powers. Robert Singer directed the episode written by Robert Berens.

That said, I sure hope Dean gets a hella meaningful Righteous Man thing again cause right now he's set up to be the fall guy for the multiverse falling like a house of cards, given he's totally ignoring/forgot Billie's warning.

ETA: When was it ever speculated that Cas would the 'holy man'? I don't remember that being a thing.  Wasn't it your spec it would be Dean?

Edited February 17, 2018 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Zachariah's back now too?  Is there going to be anyone left that they haven't brought back this season?  What sounded intriguing at the beginning of the season is turning into a bit of a mess, IMO.  Way too many characters in play to do any of them justice.  Maybe they all die in the same battle.

I may be in the minority, but I'd like for Mary to survive the AU.  They had just managed to get to where they should have started in their relationship, and I personally would like them all to have more time.  

I wish we had a clue what their plan was for the future of the show.  I have to assume that they know, but just aren't saying anything yet.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: When was it ever speculated that Cas would the 'holy man'? I don't remember that being a thing.  Wasn't it your spec it would be Dean?

 

I think I saw some spec about it being Cas on Twitter.

 

And yes I said from the start I thought it would be Dean. Since he’s an angel the descriptor “man” wouldn’t truly fit Cas and it seemed clear to me Misha wouldn’t be in the episode since he was Home while it filmed. Others thought I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of it being Cas IIRC. 

 

@catrox14 ETA: Plus he’s appeared in episode 12 and 13, will appear in episode 14 and will at least voice appear in episode 16*. I’d be surprised if Misha/Cas appeared in episode 15 to make it five straight episodes. 

 

* I know Jared talked about Misha recording for the animation voices, but I’m not sure if it’s been confirmed he appears in the live portions? 

Edited February 17, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

And yes I said from the start I thought it would be Dean. Since he’s an angel the descriptor “man” wouldn’t truly fit Cas and it seemed clear to me Misha wouldn’t be in the episode since he was Home while it filmed. Others thought I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of it being Cas IIRC. 

I legit don't remember Cas being discussed as being the "Holy Man" just whether he would be in the ep. It's probably not any of TFW, not Donatello.

My spec all along was that it would be Lucifer thinking he's the Holy Man. But he might not be in it either. All that said, I bet it's someone we really don't want to see.

[SueB]

So clearly Jack does NOT make it back through the rift.  But how do we get that scene of Jack and Cas at the lakeside in our universe in the next episode?  Is it some sort of dream?  Flashback makes no sense as there was no time for them to go back to that place before Jack took off.  And Cas and Jack only overlapped in Tombstone.  Jack is reaching out with his mind?  I don't understand.  And we've got two randoms from what appears to be the AU fighting Dean and Cas?  

But in a way I'm glad Jack is with Mary because I don't want her on her own.  

 

As for opening the rift. Puh-lease.  You tell the Winchesters NOT to do something? What are they gonna do?  I'm just saying, even Dean admitted that it "sounds like them".  And it's his mother.  He's now expanded his circle of "must go gets" to include Mary.  In fact, I'd characterize it as (including meta reasons):
Sam: Must go get and he does within one or two episodes
Mary: Must go get but can't til the plot needs him to. 
Cas: Must go get but can't til the plot needs him to.  Plus angel, so he's got some advantages when in trouble.
Jack: Must go get but can't til plot needs him to. Plus nephilim, so he's got some advantages when in trouble.

Expanded family.  He'd also go after the circle of friends: Jody, Donna, the "sisters", of course Bobby would have been high on the list while alive as well as Ellen & Jo.

So, yeah, Dean Winchester not listening to "Death" to go after a loved one?  Have you met him?  Not in his DNA.  He's not going to actively kill people as quickly as he did before S11 but he'll risk a rift.  Went straight there in "The Bad Place" without hesistation.

[DittyDotDot]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

My spec all along was that it would be Lucifer thinking he's the Holy Man. But he might not be in it either. All that said, I bet it's someone we really don't want to see.

I thought it might be our universe Micheal for a hot minute, but the Gabriel reveal kinda sinks that. My current guess is it will be Donatello. 

33 minutes ago, SueB said:

So clearly Jack does NOT make it back through the rift.  But how do we get that scene of Jack and Cas at the lakeside in our universe in the next episode?  Is it some sort of dream?  Flashback makes no sense as there was no time for them to go back to that place before Jack took off.  And Cas and Jack only overlapped in Tombstone.  Jack is reaching out with his mind? 

That would be my guess. It looks like Jack is imprisoned so I can imagine him feeling like he can't do it and reaches out to Cass for guidance. 

34 minutes ago, SueB said:

So, yeah, Dean Winchester not listening to "Death" to go after a loved one?  Have you met him?  Not in his DNA.  He's not going to actively kill people as quickly as he did before S11 but he'll risk a rift.  Went straight there in "The Bad Place" without hesistation.

I agree, but I don't think this one is only Dean. Sam wants to save Mary and Jack just as much as Dean and I think they'll be opening that rift together and damning the consequences together. 

[ILoveReading]

44 minutes ago, SueB said:

But how do we get that scene of Jack and Cas at the lakeside in our universe in the next

I went back and watched the last SPPT video and there was a clip of Jack who looks to be in a smoke filled bunker.   And a picture of what looks like one of the bunker doors on fire.   So how does that fit in?  I don't think the promo covered episode 15. 

49 minutes ago, SueB said:

So, yeah, Dean Winchester not listening to "Death" to go after a loved one?  Have you met him?  Not in his DNA. 

Yet, this season we had Dean give up on Mary and write her off with no body.  

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought it might be our universe Micheal for a hot minute, but the Gabriel reveal kinda sinks that. My current guess is it will be Donatello. 

Why do you think it's Donatello? He's already the Prophet so that seems kind of redundant. Not being snarky, just wondering.

[DittyDotDot]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why do you think it's Donatello? He's already the Prophet so that seems kind of redundant. Not being snarky, just wondering.

it could be anybody depending on the bent they take to the story, but I just figured they were being somewhat ironic with the title and a soulless prophet of the Lord who is being manipulated by a Prince of Hell sounds ironic to me.

Edited February 17, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

So clearly Jack does NOT make it back through the rift.  But how do we get that scene of Jack and Cas at the lakeside in our universe in the next episode?  Is it some sort of dream?  Flashback makes no sense as there was no time for them to go back to that place before Jack took off.  And Cas and Jack only overlapped in Tombstone.  Jack is reaching out with his mind?  I don't understand.  And we've got two randoms from what appears to be the AU fighting Dean and Cas?  

Pretty sure he  does make it back because the Shaving People video showed him in the red light in the Bunker yelling for Sam and Dean. 

I don't know if it's supposed to be at the lake house again, but it sure looks like the same location and I know they filmed at Brittania Beach again, via the tweets from Misha with Alex, which doesn't mean it's the lake house spot per se.  But it could be.

IMO, that scene by the water is where Jack comes back through from the other side. I think it will be the original rift location, IMO,  he and Mary are trying to come through together but she doesn't make it for...reasons. Or they decide she stays behind for ...reasons. Once on our side, Jack sends up an angel radio signal to  Castiel, who races to him with Dean and Sam.  IMO Cas is trying to encourage him that he can open it again without a  dreamwalker. I mean given that Jack's energy alone opened the first rift which just happened to be a direct doorway to AW....(but hey you know can't have that logically be in play cause then they don't need Kaia to throw them into the wrong place to set up her story and WS....but I am going to laugh my ass off if they are back at the original rift location....cause someone was like OH HEY MAYBE WE SHOULD FIND THAT DOORWAY AGAIN! LOL***

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

it could be anybody depending on the bent they take to the story, but I just figured they were being somewhat ironic with the title and a soulless prophet of the Lord who is being manipulated by a Prince of Hell sounds ironic to me.

 

I gotcha.  Maybe so.

***ETA: But then Jack probably can't open it given the further adventure listed for 13.15 which says that the boys are 'gathering other things that they need" to open the Rift. 

Edited February 17, 2018 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

Or Jack makes it out of the AU on his own, and they go back to try and rescue Mary but Mary and Jack end up getting stuck again for....reasons. 

It's Dabb I wouldn't rule this scenario out.

[catrox14]

Dean's characterization has been all over the place in the narrative this season and IMO it was to service setting up WS. He was more a plot device than a character.  

Dean believed Mary to be dead, he accepted it, and asked about her to Billie who didn't answer him. Then he's happy with Cas comes back, tells Sam they will find Jack and he's still thinking Mary is dead right up to the minute Jack shows him her being tortured. Then he flips out and puts a gun to a teenager's head to make her do their bidding to get Mary, and then once that's all over with, they help Donna on a hunt and Mary is again an afterthought other than Sam now becoming hopeless and Dean telling him, "Don't worry, we'll find a way" and he's no longer frantic to find her.

IMO, Dean's flip out was OOC and  plot driven for WS reasons, and now his lack of talking about Billie's warning is OOC given that he literally told Sam that Billie is Death now and plot driven, and IMO, at this point, there is no good reason in the narrative for that pretty big thing to be left hanging other than for Billie to show up later and scold Dean in some fashion, or give him a worse comeuppance.

15 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Or Jack makes it out of the AU on his own, and they go back to try and rescue Mary but Mary and Jack end up getting stuck again for....reasons. 

It's Dabb I wouldn't rule this scenario out.

Oh you mean for 13.15? That Jack, Mary and maybe Cas get stuck there so that's why Dean and Sam are off on another route? I wonder if that other route is how they end up in Scooby Land for 13.16?

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think Dean ever truly accepted that Mary was dead, as much as he couldn't or wouldn't allow himself to have even a shred of hope that she might have survived somehow.  When he learns that she's alive and being tortured, I think he's furious with himself for not doing what he's always done before, which is to never give up.  

You are all much better than me at trying to decipher those 20 second previews we get.  I never have any idea what's going on in them.  These upcoming episodes should be chock full of action, considering all of the players now on the table.  I'll be happy to have Jack back, and would like to see the boys rescue Mary.  I wonder if it's possible that Ketch actually does have a line that even he won't cross.  Somehow I doubt it, but all of these characters can't be evil.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I agree, but I don't think this one is only Dean. Sam wants to save Mary and Jack just as much as Dean and I think they'll be opening that rift together and damning the consequences together. 

I'd agree If, at some point, Dean tells Sam what Billie said about opening rifts before they actually do it. Otherwise it's just wrong-headed Dean fucking up again and some more. 

I wish I had any faith at all this will happen. 

[Bobcatkitten]

What did Billie say again? 

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

What did Billie say again? 

Here is the entire conversation.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=13.05_Advanced_Thanatology_(transcript)

Quote

Billie: That’s enough of that.
Dean: No, I saw Cas kill you.
Billie: How’s that working out for him? It’s funny to hear a Winchester talk about the finality of dying. This reality – it has rules, Dean. So many rules. And one of them? Kill one incarnation of Death, like you did, the next Reaper to dies takes his place. So… when Castiel stabbed me in the back, turns out, I got a promotion. [We see Billie’s hand with a white stoned ring, very similar to the ring Death wore] New job. New gear.
Dean: So you died to become Death?
Billie: This universe can be so many things, and sometimes, it is poetic. That’s why we need to talk.
Dean is suddenly standing in the black and white corridor of shelves with Billie.
Dean: The hell?
Billie: Welcome to my reading room. Know not to leave this lying around near you. Don’t we? [Billie leans her scythe against the wall]
Dean: So… am I dead?
Billie: You killed yourself.
Dean: No. Are you keeping me dead?
Billie: Now that depends on you.
Dean: Okay. Uh… Well, congrats on the promotion. Uh, but I got a house full of ghosts waiting on me and my brother to get back to, so if it’s up to me –
Billie: I didn’t say it was up to you. I said it depends on you. Word on the interdimensional street is you’ve been slipping between worlds, Dean. I wanna know how you did it. Now.
Dean: Well, I thought Death knew everything.
Billie: Then you can imagine how this one little blind spot is really bothering me.
Dean: What’s in it for me?
Billie: What do you want?
Dean: Free the ghosts.
Billie: Excuse me?
Dean: Free the ghosts at the Meadow’s house. Let them move on, I’ll tell you whatever you wanna know.
Billie: Deal.
At the bottom of the large staircase we see the Reaper Jessica speaking to the ghosts at the house.
Jessica: Come with me. You don’t have to stay here. It’s going to be okay.
One by one the ghosts start disappearing in a cloud of dust. We see Evan’s and Shawn’s ghosts disappear as Jessica smiles warmly.
Billie: It’s done.
Dean: How do I know I can trust you?
Billie: You don’t. But then again, I’m not the one breaking cosmic bargains left and right, now, am I?
Dean: Yeah, it’s not like you to hold a grudge.
Billie: Don’t I? So… spill.
Dean: Lucifer’s son. Jack. When he was born, it created a little rip.
Billie: “A little rip”?
Dean: Mm.
Billie: Into another world? And you went there?
Dean: Mm. Yeah, I’ll just say it’s, uh, it’s not Candy Land.
Billie: I’ll bet.
Dean: Why do you care?
Billie: Because I do. Because…this whole multi-versal quantum construct we live in, it’s like a house of cards. And the last thing I need is some big, dumb Winchester knocking it all down.
Dean: Hmm. That does sound like us.
Billie: You’ve changed. When you bargained with me just now, you could’ve asked to go back, to live.
Dean: Well, I figured with you in charge, there’s no getting back for me.
Billie: That doesn’t sound like the Dean Winchester I know and love. The man who has been dead so many times but it never seems to stick. Maybe you’re not that guy anymore, they guy who saves the world, the guy who always thinks he’ll win no matter what. You have changed. And you tell people it’s not a big deal. You tell people you’ll work through it but you know you won’t, you can’t and that scares the hell out of you. Or… am I wrong?
Dean: What do you want me to say? Doesn’t matter. I don’t matter.
Billie: Don’t you?
Dean: I couldn’t save Mom. I couldn’t save Cas. I can’t even save a scared little kid. Sam keeps trying to fix it, but I just keep dragging him down. So I’m not going to beg. Okay, if it’s my time, it’s my time.
Billie: You really believe that. [Dean shakes his head yes] You wanna die. Dean…every notebook on this particular shelf tells a version of how you die. You specifically, heart attack, burned by a red-haired witch, stabbed by a ghoul in a graveyard, and on and on. But which ones right? That depends on you, on the choices you make.
Dean: Well, I guess I made my choice.
Billie: But…unfortunately none of these books say you die today.
Dean: Come again?
Billie: Since I got this…new job, I stand witness to a much larger picture. Do you know what I see? You. And your brother. You’re important.
Dean: Why?
Billie: You have work to do. That’s all you need to know. And trust me, having my eyes opened to the necessity of any humans, especially Winchesters, is not a thrill. So…you wanna die, but I say…keep living.
Dean: Hmm. I need to know. My mom –
Dean’s body suddenly comes to life with a huge gasp for air.
Sam: Hey. You’re okay.
Dean: Yeah.
Sam: Yeah. You’re okay. [Slumps wearily against the wall]

ETA: Just as an aside. ^^^^ is some of the best dialogue this show has done in years.  What a great scene between Billie and Dean.  Just phenomenal.

IMO, Billie is warning Dean to not play around with these other worlds.  The first time they went through I think she was willing to overlook since they basically didn't know any better. But now? This can't turn out well for anyone. And thus far, it's not been shown, nor implied that Dean has discussed this with Sam or anyone really. 

[Bobcatkitten]

God I loved that scene. I guess I didn't take it as a warning though. Reading it it seems clear. I would say there better be a conversation but if there is one thing that seems will never change it's the Winchester boys hiding things from each other. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

God I loved that scene. I guess I didn't take it as a warning though. Reading it it seems clear. I would say there better be a conversation but if there is one thing that seems will never change it's the Winchester boys hiding things from each other. 

What bothers me though, is that Dean did tell Sam about Billie being alive. He did tell him about her saying they had work to do.  So to me it's plot contrivance thus far for them to not have Dean tell him about that part of conversation.

Quote

Dean: We can talk about it later.
Sam: We won’t talk about it later. You know that.
Dean: [Watching Penny talk with the police] I saw Death. The death.
Sam: He’s dead.
Dean: No, she’s not.
Dean: It’s Billie. I guess she got a new gig. She’s the one that took care of the ghosts.
Sam: [Stammering] W-why would she help us?
Dean: She wanted intel. She said that we’re important, that we have work to do.
Sam: What the hell’s that mean?
Dean: I have no friggin’ clue. [Dean returns to watching a very distraught Penny speak with a police officer]
Sam: You okay?
Dean: No. Sam, I’m not okay. I’m pretty far from okay. You know, my whole life, I always believed that what we do was important. No matter what the cost, no matter who we lost, whether it was Dad or – or Bobby or --. And I would take the hit. But I kept on fighting because I believed that we were making the world a better place. And now Mom and Cas… And I – I don’t know. I don’t know.
Sam: So now you don’t believe anymore.
Dean: I just need a win. I just need a damn win.

[DittyDotDot]

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What bothers me though, is that Dean did tell Sam about Billie being alive. He did tell him about her saying they had work to do.  So to me it's plot contrivance thus far for them to not have Dean tell him about that part of conversation.

I'm guessing it's not something Dean is keeping from Sam, but probably happened off screen. However, I don't think it matters. With or without Billie's warning, they have to know that punching a hole into another universe will have consequences. They already did it once and it all went wrong, so I'd think they'd be prepared for shit to hit the fan again.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm guessing it's not something Dean is keeping from Sam, but probably happened off screen.

I don't know why that would be off screen when, on screen, Dean knew Sam was pushing Jack to use his powers to do exactly the thing Billie was worried they would do. Sorry but for me that would be awful writing for the show to come back and later have Sam say well you did say Billie warned us.

Edited February 18, 2018 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think Dean's keeping anything from Sam, either.  Billie may have warned him not to go messing around making rifts to other universes, but neither he nor Sam would let that deter them from trying to get to Mary.  Dean acknowledged as much when he was talking to her.  Everything they do seems to have "cosmic" consequences, so what's one more?  At the time Dean was talking to Billie, I don't think he had any expectation of creating another rift, but once they learned that Mary was still alive, all bets were off.

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

So clearly Jack does NOT make it back through the rift.  But how do we get that scene of Jack and Cas at the lakeside in our universe in the next episode?  Is it some sort of dream?  Flashback makes no sense as there was no time for them to go back to that place before Jack took off.  And Cas and Jack only overlapped in Tombstone.  Jack is reaching out with his mind?  I don't understand.  And we've got two randoms from what appears to be the AU fighting Dean and Cas?  

But in a way I'm glad Jack is with Mary because I don't want her on her own.  

 

As for opening the rift. Puh-lease.  You tell the Winchesters NOT to do something? What are they gonna do?  I'm just saying, even Dean admitted that it "sounds like them".  And it's his mother.  He's now expanded his circle of "must go gets" to include Mary.  In fact, I'd characterize it as (including meta reasons):
Sam: Must go get and he does within one or two episodes
Mary: Must go get but can't til the plot needs him to. 
Cas: Must go get but can't til the plot needs him to.  Plus angel, so he's got some advantages when in trouble.
Jack: Must go get but can't til plot needs him to. Plus nephilim, so he's got some advantages when in trouble.

Expanded family.  He'd also go after the circle of friends: Jody, Donna, the "sisters", of course Bobby would have been high on the list while alive as well as Ellen & Jo.

So, yeah, Dean Winchester not listening to "Death" to go after a loved one?  Have you met him?  Not in his DNA.  He's not going to actively kill people as quickly as he did before S11 but he'll risk a rift.  Went straight there in "The Bad Place" without hesistation.

I agree Dean spares nothing to save family.  I would even argue that they established  that Dean's need to save Mary bordered on mania last season and that ignoring Sam's plot armor from being co-lead Dean's need to save Mary surpasses his need to save Sam.  After all Dean lost Mary as a child forever changing the trajectory of his life and the family business grew out of the fact that there was no one to save his mother.  As irrational as it may seem Dean most likely bears guilt for not being able to save her.

Therefore I totally buy that Dean will do almost anything to get her back.  At the same time I was shocked by the gun waving at Kaia and I am surprised that Dean would risk the world to do so.  Dean has never knowingly risked anyone other than himself previously and rightly admonished Sam about using the Book of the Damned to remove the Mark of Cain. It is new territory and may signal the beginning of a Dean goes dark of the likes we have never seen.  Even demonic Dean was more like a wild party boy than truly dark.

I still maintain that Billie's dialogue was meant to hint at Dean!Michael rather than as a condemnation of typical Winchester reckless rule breaking world breaking bravado.   Choosing to introduce AU Zachariah only serves to remind me of Dean's righteous man, Michael's sword storyline which was rightfully aborted in season 5 because Dean's true storyline was being the champion of free will and Dean was never going to be the instrument of his brother's death.  It's a completely different board now 

[Aeryn13]

The episode is written by Dabb and Singer. Dean has a snowball`s chance in hell in being related to the title reference. IMO it will be a random character or maybe Gabriel. Maybe somehow even Donatello. Sam has a slight chance, too. But best chance: random.

As for opening the rift, that was Sam`s idea for Jack from the beginning of the Season and he is obviously onboard now so it`s squarely the both of them. He also didn`t even intervene when Dean pulled a gun on Kaia. A squeamish look means nothing. 

Billie seemed pretty fatalistic on expecting the Winchesters to do crazy stuff. Dean pretty much agreed. What was her big warning really? She didn`t deliver a warning really. Actually, what she did was the opposite, she specifically sent Dean back to the land of the living with a "you and your brother are important". That rather gives them carte blanche to follow their gut as pretty much always. She could have kept Dean dead. So if she doesn`t like any consequences the Winchester`s actions may bring, that`s her deal. 

For that reason I also don`t think Dean needs to discuss his conversation with Billie with Sam. To do what? Sam already knows Billie thinks they do stupid stuff.  Her only valid point was "you and your brother are important" and Dean already told Sam that part. It would be ridiculous to retcon some big warning out of that scene that was never there in the first place. Granted, it might still yet happen. Back in Season 6 Death sprouted some very vague stuff about Dean as "intrepid dedective" that really led nowhere narratively and then one Season later Death comes back in and blames the "intrepid dedective for not figuring out the souls stuff". That was so nonsensical, it just might happen again. 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

17 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

. It would be ridiculous to retcon some big warning out of that scene that was never there in the first place. Granted, it might still yet happen. Back in Season 6 Death sprouted some very vague stuff about Dean as "intrepid dedective" that really led nowhere narratively and then one Season later Death comes back in and blames the "intrepid dedective for not figuring out the souls stuff". That was so nonsensical, it just might happen again. 

 IMO, it wouldn't be close to a retcon, because Death has admonished Dean in the past in lowkey ways, and IMO Billie is doing a similar thing here.

Billie said specifically that the multiverse was like a house of cards and she didn't need some big dumb Winchester bringing it down and she blatantly ignored Dean's ask about Mary. MO she knew Dean well enough to know if he knew Mary was alive he'd go after her thus risking the multiverse collapse.  And IMO, if Dean wasn't so distraught and depressed at that time, he might have processed both of those things as IMO the warning they were.  That she also said they were important doesn't mean good or bad just pivotal to the proceedings.  It could be that she had to take a risk by sending Dean back because she knows that Chuck told Dean that he and Sam were now protectors of Earth. That Jack was able to give Dean a peek at Mary was something IMO, Billie wasn't counting on.  And now the house of cards is at risk again.

So to me, there is nothing really that is a retcon because it's already there.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Billie said specifically that the multiverse was like a house of cards and she didn't need some big dumb Winchester bringing it down

Yes, and right after that Dean acknowledged that this sounded just like them. And that is pretty much where they left this part of the conversation. She never said "well, not this time", she didn`t gave a specific warning to not do it in the future, she didn`t make it a condition of his return. For Dean`s part, he never promised not to do it or heed her words and do differently in the future or even take it into consideration. All that was between them was an acknowledgment of what the Winchesters are wont to do. 

If she, with that knowledge, still sends him back, even with a "you are important so I can`t keep you here" caveat and it leads to the Winchesters doing what they always do, which is messing with cosmic balance, she deserves everything that is coming to her.    

Quote

because Death has admonished Dean in the past in lowkey ways

I feel the same way about Death and his admonishments. Either spit out a very clear warning with a viable threat attached that you are willing to enforce or shut up about the "they did it again" stuff. 

Now do I think the brothers are wrong for continually messing with cosmic balances? Hell, yeah. They should at least think it through a bit more before they start doing it again. Or learn something from their own past. But cosmic beings on this show are capricious and, actually, really whiny. They don`t accept being called out on their crap. Turns out the Winchesters are in their own way also really capricious. If predictable also in what they will mess up. So if all those beings of power let them run free over and over and over again, they don`t get to whine anymore later on. 

So as far as I`m concerned, Dean can ignore his conversation with Billie to his heart`s content and she can put a kork in it if she even thinks about whining afterwards.   

[SueB]

They've met Angels, Demons, Death (twice), random pagan gods, Amara, and God (Chuck) who've ALL said they are special/important.  By now, I wouldn't be surprised if that stuff doesn't just go in one ear and out the other.  

OTOH, Billie saying they were NOT getting into heaven and would go straight to the Empty DID stick in Dean's head so now that he knows there's some reason Billie is not just out to have them dropped off into nothing, I think he knows something is up.  And they are sort of guardians of Jack.  I say 'sort' of because he's simultaneously an adult's age and also a 6 month old.  I'm also not sure that it was a specific "don't ever open a rift" warning. But if something goes wrong, I'm certain Billie will blame them.  And something WILL go wrong, if it didn't this would be a boring television show.   

Bottom Line: I think Dean picked up those rifts are cosmically important and that Billie can't wipe the Winchester off the board like she wants to because they have a role to play.

 

In other news: I had a moment of revelation last night.  I think "give them what they expect but not in the way they expect it" is going to come into play again.  If there is a Michael/Dean conversation, "we" (and in this case I mean not the people on this board so much as the random audience watchers who doesn't spend a lot of time in analysis of episodes) EXPECT the vessel request somehow to be a part of any interaction.  But since "we" expect it, it's not going to be in the way "we" expect.  For those of you who feel Dean MUST taken on Michael at some point, I think it's the writer's ultimate goal to surprise the audience.  Which means: if you can think it, the probability is VERY low that they are going to go in a specific  route you want.  Because that would be obvious.  And they don't want obvious. 

Maybe Mary comes back wearing the Michael suit.  Of course, since I just said that... it's now "obvious" and less likely to happen. And no, I don't WANT that to happen but it would be interesting.  That's one of the few ways I see Dean offering to be the vessel - to take the burden away from Mary. 

I DO think the Lance of Michael will come back.  That's more of a Chekov's gun.  But how it gets repaired, who uses it and on whom has many permutations and combinations. 

Edited February 19, 2018 by SueB

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, SueB said:

I DO think the Lance of Michael will come back.  That's more of a Chekov's gun.  But how it gets repaired, who uses it and on whom has many permutations and combinations. 

I disagree with this. To me it was used by Sam and Crowley and that's it.  Of course maybe Dean and Sam have saved the pieces of it like they have the broken Colt but they likely will only be there for someone else to steal from the bunker. .someone like...Ketch.  Just a guess. Cause you know they didn't bother to change the locks....cause they never do LOL

The only thing at this point IMO that would be actually giving some Dean fans something they want in a way they don't expect would actually be Michael!Dean and I put that at lower odds than Destiel becoming textual canon. I'm not even being that snarky either.

Edited February 19, 2018 by catrox14

[Res]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

OTOH, Billie saying they were NOT getting into heaven and would go straight to the Empty DID stick in Dean's head so now that he knows there's some reason Billie is not just out to have them dropped off into nothing, I think he knows something is up.  And they are sort of guardians of Jack. 

UGH! If that's true, which it probably is because I absolutely HATE that Idea, just UGH! No offense to you or anyone who likes/loves this idea. I'm only giving my Opinion in this response as it has some points I have a response to. Not actually intended for specific rebuttal to you. It's more a general POV I MYSELF have of these and other points. I mean, Sam willingly, enthusiastically took that on so bully for him but the rest of it absolutely reeks of soap opera level crap which is NOT why I watch. I get that several viewers absolutely love this angle and the, what do they call him, the "sweet, little cinnamon bun" (whatever that means) but he and his whole storyline is absolutely mind numbing to me. So much could have been done with it that would be vastly interesting but, no, we have to have the nature vs nurture debate yet again, like we have had a few seasons worth of that over Sam ad nauseum. Oh, but this is yet another monster, a neph which we haven't had before, so let's do a combo of nature vs nurture with a heavy helping of "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way." Cuz that's riveting TV! That's why our viewship hasn't dropped yet! They love our "good monsters' have morals and soap platform". Let's give them more! JK, not really.  No, seriously not kidding. This is NOT why I watch the show that actually used to be about the supernatural and not how to successful raise Lucifer's baby to be a productive member of society. First, don't ignore him or be mean as it will hurt the neph's feelings and make everyone think you are a bully and big ol' meanie. It doesn't matter if his birth helped kill your best friend and lose your mother. Be NICE DAMNIT!!!!                                                                                                                      

32 minutes ago, SueB said:

Bottom Line: I think Dean picked up those rifts are cosmically important and that Billie can't wipe the Winchester off the board like she wants to because they have a role to play.

Yep, they have a role to play. It's called being the leads of the show so they have to have their requisite, newly contracted 10 minutes of screen time each episode to start it then close it to round things off nicely so that you can ignore how they aren't really in their show as much anymore. JJ. Maybe.

But seriously, this quote and the other one

43 minutes ago, SueB said:

They've met Angels, Demons, Death (twice), random pagan gods, Amara, and God (Chuck) who've ALL said they are special/important.  By now, I wouldn't be surprised if that stuff doesn't just go in one ear and out the other.  

Is because there are NO repercussion for NOT listening! Seriously, what has actually happened if they didn't listen, they are special so someone will save them if they do mess up. I mean, just starting recently, Benny saved Dean from Purgatory, Gadreel "saved" Sam from Death, Crowley "saved" Sam from Gadreel, Sam half-assed a random cure to "save" Dean (and even though that should've NEVER worked, it did because the plot (AKA showrunner) needed it to)[#STILLEXTREMELYBITTER #SUPREMESOURPATCHESXAMILLIONBITTERNESS], Charile #MYEYESCANNOTROLLHARDENOUGHOVERTHIS ********, Sam, Rowena, Crowley and Cas "save" Dean, etc. 

They are threatened continuously and yet nothing really happens to them ever because they are "special" which is why I laughed hysterically at the TV during the S11 opener with Billie taunting Sam about the "Empty" oooh, ahhh, oooo, BS. I also openly dared the TV every time Billie was on to do that. Plot (AKA Showrunners) had Cas do it instead because they cannot shake up the formula anymore even though it's the 11-13 freakin' season. They cannot even halfway make the "superdooper, superpowered marshmallow" naughty. #MYEYESCANNOTROLLHARDENOUGHOVERTHIS

So whatever repercussion they want to happen to Dean or the brothers over the world hopping. It will either go to another character or be resolved in an episode or two because they cannot even begin to write outside the tried and true formula if their life depended on it.

******** I will NEVER forgive TPTB for coming up with a lame-arse "cure" for the MoC or allowing that half-arsed cure to work on an only once before seen demon. Plus, how is it after 4000+ years Cain never found, much less heard, of that book? Or are you trying to tell me that our "heroes" used a "cure" with repercussions that even the "Father of Murder" wouldn't tempt? I HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE that they removed that Mark!!! Because I really, REALLY feel that it was something that they, specifically Dean, should have had to live with forever! 

Did I mention how much I hate the crap they pulled in Season 10 making it my least favorite of all time?!
 

[SueB]

@Res taking response to SPOILER-version of the bitterness thread as I think that's where it belongs.

Edited February 19, 2018 by SueB

[DeeDee79]

54 minutes ago, Res said:

what do they call him, the "sweet, little cinnamon bun" (whatever that means)

I'm so glad that I'm not the only one with no clue what this means. Why is Jack being referred to as a cinnamon roll damn near everywhere online?

[Wayward Son]

Didn't we see him eating a cinnamon roll during the first episode of the season? 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Didn't we see him eating a cinnamon roll during the first episode of the season? 

He ate nougat candy bars. I think cinnamon roll is a tumblr thing

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

He ate nougat candy bars. I think cinnamon roll is a tumblr thing

Ah, OK thanks for clarifying! For some reason I'd always just assumed it was a reference to his sweet tooth shown in the first episode :) 

[SueB]

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Ah, OK thanks for clarifying! For some reason I'd always just assumed it was a reference to his sweet tooth shown in the first episode :) 

Nah. "Cinnamon roll" was something on twitter and tumblr and I have adopted it with glee.  I literally shout "Cinnamon Roll!" when I see him.  It's because HE'S so sweet (not that he likes to eat sweets).  He warm and gooey and sweet.  Like a cinnamon roll. Or a puppy.  He's very eager to please even tho he's peed on the carpet a couple of times.

[Castiels Cat]

On 2/18/2018 at 5:00 PM, Aeryn13 said:

The episode is written by Dabb and Singer. Dean has a snowball`s chance in hell in being related to the title reference. IMO it will be a random character or maybe Gabriel. Maybe somehow even Donatello. Sam has a slight chance, too. But best chance: random.

As for opening the rift, that was Sam`s idea for Jack from the beginning of the Season and he is obviously onboard now so it`s squarely the both of them. He also didn`t even intervene when Dean pulled a gun on Kaia. A squeamish look means nothing. 

Billie seemed pretty fatalistic on expecting the Winchesters to do crazy stuff. Dean pretty much agreed. What was her big warning really? She didn`t deliver a warning really. Actually, what she did was the opposite, she specifically sent Dean back to the land of the living with a "you and your brother are important". That rather gives them carte blanche to follow their gut as pretty much always. She could have kept Dean dead. So if she doesn`t like any consequences the Winchester`s actions may bring, that`s her deal. 

For that reason I also don`t think Dean needs to discuss his conversation with Billie with Sam. To do what? Sam already knows Billie thinks they do stupid stuff.  Her only valid point was "you and your brother are important" and Dean already told Sam that part. It would be ridiculous to retcon some big warning out of that scene that was never there in the first place. Granted, it might still yet happen. Back in Season 6 Death sprouted some very vague stuff about Dean as "intrepid dedective" that really led nowhere narratively and then one Season later Death comes back in and blames the "intrepid dedective for not figuring out the souls stuff". That was so nonsensical, it just might happen again. 

What Death said to Dean did go somewhere. The entire season was an homage to film noir with The Big Sleep, later remade as Chinatown and Brick, as the main inspiration.  Dean basically is Philip Marlowe trying to get to the bottom if a big conspiracy. He even ends up with a bandaid on his nose after getting beaten up in the Fairy episode.  And in the end he is betrayed by his best friend.   All of the characters were playing film noir tropes.  Many of the episodes were shot like film noir and many episodes had film noir titles.

I really loved that aspect of season 6.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

What Death said to Dean did go somewhere. 

I have bad memories of this little comment of "intrepid dedective" being held up as "this will be the character`s storyline" and of course predictably that never materialized so I was doubly irritated when it was brought back a year later to blame him for something. One of my many "burn in effigy, show" moments. :) 

Now I do believe it`s likely Billie will come in a later episode with "OMG, you knocked down the house of cards" speech because that fits her character but I will only think "OMG, you knew that beforehand, you twat". So this time I won`t be incensed so much as eye-rolly.  

At this point blind aliens four galaxies away can predict that the Winchesters will do stupid stuff like opening interdimensional rifts if they think they need to do it for one reason or another. I like it as little as all the cosmic beings on the show but I was forced to accept it. So should they. 

At least we got a line like "we`ll be quick, pull out mom and Jack and close it before anything bad comes through" or something akin to that. Yes, it`s an insane risk they should know from personal experience will not pan out the way they think but it`s better than nothing.   

[Wheels08]

On 2/19/2018 at 9:16 PM, SueB said:

Nah. "Cinnamon roll" was something on twitter and tumblr and I have adopted it with glee.  I literally shout "Cinnamon Roll!" when I see him.  It's because HE'S so sweet (not that he likes to eat sweets).  He warm and gooey and sweet.  Like a cinnamon roll. Or a puppy.  He's very eager to please even tho he's peed on the carpet a couple of times.

I love him, and with him coming into the show I can kinda see how the show will maybe end.

[Castiels Cat]

13 hours ago, Wheels08 said:

I love him, and with him coming into the show I can kinda see how the show will maybe end.

I hated him in the first episode because he struck me as Cas wannabe.  He grew on me.  The actor is talented.  Unfortunately thus far the character is a walking plot device.  Yes he wants to do good... It is all for someone else.  He wants to live up to his mother's expectations, he wants to make Sam happy and win over Dean.  It will go sideways.

[gonzosgirrl]

Hmm. This is a different kind of promo. I wonder if it's supposed to mean anything?

[Bobcatkitten]

I can't get past how hot Jensen/Dean looks in that and he doesn't even move a muscle. Are there others in that teaser? What does it say? :)

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Hmm. This is a different kind of promo. I wonder if it's supposed to mean anything?

Replying in bitter spoilers

[MysteryGuest]

Maybe that's endgame...the boys finally throw in the towel and go dark side.  If you can't beat them, join them?  I am kidding, at least I think I am.  Better dark side than dead, IMO.  I'm just not willing to watch them die at the end of this show, so I'm going to need to start working on my head canon now.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, scribe95 said:

I can't get past how hot Jensen/Dean looks in that and he doesn't even move a muscle. Are there others in that teaser? What does it say? :)

How are there not women (or men) throwing themselves at him 24/7?! 

I don't believe they are hinting at anything, but that is one hot promo. Something for everyone! 

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

How are there not women (or men) throwing themselves at him 24/7?! 

I don't believe they are hinting at anything, but that is one hot promo. Something for everyone! 

True dat! TFW looking hot AF

[gonzosgirrl]

No idea if episode descriptions count as spoilers but just in case...

 

Lucky people!

[Res]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

How are there not women (or men) throwing themselves at him 24/7?! 

I don't believe they are hinting at anything, but that is one hot promo. Something for everyone! 

I agree that they probably aren't hinting anything but I would LOVE it if they were. 

[Castiels Cat]

After rewatching tonight's episode I changed my mind about Rowena becoming an angelic vessel.  Perusing SupernaturalWiki for the transcript and I came across the fact that  the eyes were supposed to be purple like the eyes of a natural witch.
From Supernatural.Wiki. various and sundry villains. Trivia. http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=13.12_Various_%26_Sundry_Villains
"After breaking the binding spell on herself that was limiting her powers, Rowena's eyes glow purple. This had previously also been seen with Tasha Banes and her son Max. Many fans reported that Rowena's eye's appeared blue on their broadcast of the episode. Head of Supernatural VFX Mark Meloche confirm that the effect had been created to be purple."

So I guess her natural powers had been blocked and she used her magical essence and a spell to unblock it and now she can do magic without bothering with words.  The spoiler references Tasha and Max who both could do silent magic as I recall, possibly making their will or desire an actuality without a spell. I think her fear of Lucifer is valid and true.  Not sure how magic can trump Lucifer unless she plans to use it to release either Michael or call an elemental, new territory, or steal power bigly.  After all her wee cobbled together coven did have a small affect on Amara. Should be interesting. I love Rowena and hope she resurrects Fergus.