Spoilers With Speculation

[nightwing877]

34 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I would hope that since they mentioned her specifically, they actually got the same actress, but you never know with this show.  They made a big deal about bringing Aaron Glass back, and he was in the scene for all of 3 seconds.  I think Missouri is an intriguing character, so I'd like to see her come back.  I'd be curious what her take would be on Sam and Dean now, and just how much she would know about their lives at this point.

Mary certainly could have sought her out when re-tracing John's past through his journal, but if she had, it would have been nice to have that come up in conversation somewhere last season.  So many missed opportunities with regard to Mary and her return.  I was looking forward to her slow discovery of just who her sons were, and it would also have given us a nostalgic look back on the past 12 years.  Mary could have also filled in some of the gaps about what happened after John was brought back.  I expected her return to be much more emotional than it was.

Missouri was an okay character and didn't hate her. I know people hate her, but she was in just one episode and was originally always suppose to be a recurring character. Funny how the SPN animated series gave her the bigger role she was probably meant to have. lol

Yeah so much they could of done with Mary last season. I wished we saw more of her re-tracing John's past, which just was ignored later on. I would of loved her to have been seen visiting old towns. And I guess Mary will never know that her father and uncles, aunty's and their children are all dead from the events of season 6.

But Mary not mentioning Missouri or running into her, I wonder if this is addressed in her return in season 13. With Mary missing again in the AU, maybe they just drop it. Maybe she gives Dean and Sam some hope of finding Mary again. I wonder if Missouri and Bobby ever meet?

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It could be Patience will feel guilty over the estrangement after her grandmother is dead, or there is some SECRET why they were estranged? There's lots of ways they can have her death be effect Patience if they want it to. 

That's true, they can go many ways with it. I half expect us meeting Patience at Missouri's funeral which is where Sam and Dean meet her. But I hope, she doesn't die that soon. 

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, nightwing877 said:

That's true, they can go many ways with it. I half expect us meeting Patience at Missouri's funeral which is where Sam and Dean meet her. But I hope, she doesn't die that soon. 

I do too. I'm with you, she was in one episode and while I wasn't wowed by her as a character it was back in S1 when the show was still finding itself. I think she had possibilities, though. But, I do think it's weird they're going back to her so many years later, but it may turn out it makes perfect sense in the end. 

Anyway, maybe she'll live in the first episode--her and her granddaughter will get to know each other some--and then Missouri ends up getting killed later in the season and the whole Wayward Sister's premise starts with Missouri's death?

[ILoveReading]

I'm thinking the name change from Daughters to Sisters is for legal reasons. 

When Claire was sent to Jody, some in the fandom immediately asked for a spin off of Claire and Alex with Jody and called it WayWard Daughters.  Plus, it was used as a name for a campaign.

Since fandom came up with Wayward Daughters the show probably can't use. 

As for Missouri, I really hoped they toned her down, because I didn't like the way she was written in her other episode. 

I could be misremembering but I thought Patience was estranged from her father, because he wants her to suppress her psychic abilities but Missouri tried to encourage them.

I expect the episode to be pretty paint by the numbers.  Im guessing Patience will run away to her Grandmother, something will follow her. Sam and Dean end up in town.  Patience and Sam bond over being psychic, Patience saves Dean.  Then for.....reasons, she goes to live with Jody.

[nightwing877]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I do too. I'm with you, she was in one episode and while I wasn't wowed by her as a character it was back in S1 when the show was still finding itself. I think she had possibilities, though. But, I do think it's weird they're going back to her so many years later, but it may turn out it makes perfect sense in the end. 

Anyway, maybe she'll live in the first episode--her and her granddaughter will get to know each other some--and then Missouri ends up getting killed later in the season and the whole Wayward Sister's premise starts with Missouri's death?

Me too, it is just so weird to bring her back after over a decade. It is like why bring her back just to die. LOL

I could also see them doing that too. Guess we shall just have to wait and see.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, nightwing877 said:

Me too, it is just so weird to bring her back after over a decade. It is like why bring her back just to die. LOL

I could also see them doing that too. Guess we shall just have to wait and see.

The show does have a precedence for doing this though! They brought back season 1 characters Tommy and Sarah back in season 8 just to kill them off. 

[nightwing877]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The show does have a precedence for doing this though! They brought back season 1 characters Tommy and Sarah back in season 8 just to kill them off. 

That's right they do. And let's not forget Ellen and Jo coming back in season 5, after a 2-season absence and killing them off just when I really felt they worked in the show again. 

But wow, Missouri's has a record of about 250 or so episodes before a return. I think she has the all time record now for the show now.

I am curious how the show would be if Missouri was in it, and the actress was in the season 1 final and no Bobby. I wonder if the animated series is Eric Kripke's original vision for the series. Maybe Ellen and Jo are never created, I can't see the show overcrowding with more female characters and just the brothers, if we didn't get Bobby.

Edited August 6, 2017 by nightwing877

[gonzosgirrl]

On ‎2017‎-‎07‎-‎31 at 1:41 PM, catrox14 said:

I think Roy and Walt both survived.

Hmm, this quote didn't bring over your list of killed-off characters, but I didn't see Ramiel & Dagon? (Sorry if they were mentioned later - my tablet hates this site and navigating pages is incredibly frustrating)

On ‎2017‎-‎08‎-‎01 at 5:57 PM, Pondlass1 said:

Ty is a good solid actor and has great chemistry with Jensen. I'd be very happy to have Ty back as Benny any time.

Missouri on the other hand is an annoying unnecessary character, especially if she's going to continue nagging at Dean. 

Jensen's legs seem to go on forever in that pic. 

If I didn't loathe Andrew Dabb and his band of crappy writers so much, I would wish for Benny back, above all others (including Bobby, Mary and any other dead character). As it stands , I don't want them anywhere near his character.

I like Loretta Divine. I just hope the years have tempered her attitude towards Dean.

Unfortunately, just about every 'spoiler' that's come about only reads to me like an easy out for showrunners/writers who already LOL at canon on a regular basis.

[DittyDotDot]

Thinking more, I think the Wayward Sister's premise will really start from the Spawn trying to open a rift back to the AU so he can reconnect with his daddy, but gets it wrong--for reasons, of course. I could see the first of the two episodes ending with Jack opening something horrible and the second being everyone trying to contain whatever it is Jack opened. Maybe Missouri gets sucked into the "hellmouth" or something and that's what propels her granddaughter to stay with Jodi and the girls; she's hoping to find a way to save Missouri?

12 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The show does have a precedence for doing this though! They brought back season 1 characters Tommy and Sarah back in season 8 just to kill them off. 

I know, that's why I'm assuming Missouri is toast at some point. ;)

[catrox14]

Thanks @gonzosgirrl. Totally derped with Ramiel and Dagon.

 

Quote

 

*Updated death pool as of 8/6/2017

h/t @SueB, @mertensia, @gonzosgirrl

BMOL:
Ketch
Mick
Hess
Lady SHEDEAD
Lady SHEDEAD's Henchbitch
Other members during the raid on the BMOL bunker in 12.22, but unclear how many (10?)
Rogue Hunter/BMOL traitor  played by Aaron Douglas

Hunters:
Asa Fox and a few other hunters at his funeral(4?)
Eileen
Wally
Roy (presumed dead) *

Non-hunter/hunter adjacent
Magda
Tasha and Alicia Banes
Kelly
Vince Vicente and his bandmates (5?)
Supernatural entities:
Crowley
Castiel
Rowena
Billie
Ramiel
Dagon
Joshua
The Alpha Vamp and some vampires (10?)
Lucifer's minions (3?)
Crowley's minions (3?)
Hitler and his minions (5?)
Am I missing any, non Apocalypses/Darkness released division?

Thus far that is ~60 deaths in s12. Dang.

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, nightwing877 said:

I am curious how the show would be if Missouri was in it, and the actress was in the season 1 final and no Bobby. I wonder if the animated series is Eric Kripke's original vision for the series. Maybe Ellen and Jo are never created, I can't see the show overcrowding with more female characters and just the brothers, if we didn't get Bobby.

I only watched a couple episodes of the anime series, so I can't comment on whether it was more Kripke's vision or not. I'd say it probably represents many of the things they couldn't afford to do on the show, though. So maybe somewhere in between?

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Thanks @gonzosgirrl. Totally derped with Ramiel and Dagon.

 

:)  Also, Joshua?

[DeeDee79]

36 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The show does have a precedence for doing this though! They brought back season 1 characters Tommy and Sarah back in season 8 just to kill them off. 

And Joshua in season 12 even though he was in a different vessel.

[Wayward Son]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

:)  Also, Joshua?

 

12 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

And Joshua in season 12 even though he was in a different vessel.

Ooh yes! I had forgotten about that! Probably because of the different vessel / actor like DeeDee said :)

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

Couldn't the tapeball turn evil or something?  That would be different.

LOOOL. This would be amazing. 

Totally picturing an episode wherein Tara Benchley, who has become a TV star in Dr. Sexy, M.D.  which ,much to Dean's chagrin had been cancelled a couple of years ago.  Sadly, Tara was broke due to trusting the wrong people. However, Hell Hazers had become a cult film and a producer decided to reboot the movies as a TV series, starring Tara Benchley.  The first two days on the set weird deaths happen with day players being strangled to death by the tape used for their marks.  The police can't figure it out. Tara thinks she's cursed because it's happening again and she thinks back to that hot P.A. who she never really forgot, who helped with the last time weird shit happened on Hell Hazers. She's trying to find him but she can't because well, reasons.  In the meanwhile, there are leaks that mysterious deaths are  on the set of the reboot of Hell Hazers, which Dean reads about  because OF COURSE, he has kept up on Tara's career because HELLO he was fanboy before he was a Helluva P.A. for her, and he tells Sam he thinks they have a case again with Tara.  So off they go Vancouver, BC because that's where Hell Hazers is being filmed.

26 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

And Joshua in season 12 even though he was in a different vesse

Ack another death to add! Crap!

[SueB]

Well, if someone from the AU is the Big Bad in the backhalf of S13 (per Dabb & Singer), then it seems to me the rift opens up and is the "hellmouth" at the midseason finale/pilot premiere (tm... DittyDotDot or whomever said rift=hellmouth first).  

My guessing based on what we know so far:
13.1/13.2 Immediate aftermath, Cas' funeral - flashbacks into the AU for Sam & Dean, real AU visit for Mary & Lucifer - Jack runs away after Dean tries to kill him, they get him back by the end of the second episode.
13.3 Jodi & Missouri Mosley  - Whatever the 'MOTW' is, I think MM tells Sam & Dean stuff about Mary, and possibly that she's still alive. 
13.4/13.15 MOTW, AU check-in w/ Mary/Luci, Cas meets Different Cas in the OTHER alternate plane. Raising Jack shenanigans.
13.6 Cas is back, meets Jack has some theory on how to get to Mary.
13.7-13.8 MOTW's sprinkled with whatever attempts to get Jack to open the rift to get Mary. AU check-ins.
13.9 Get back Mary attempt, takes them to Jody's neck of the woods.... maybe ends with the rift opening and the boys going in? May have MM guiding them 'psychically' somehow. (like going after Carol Anne but no ropes!)
13.10 Wayward Sisters pilot, I'm not sure how 'stand alone' it is because I think it's connected to 13.9.  The rift maynot open until THIS episode (as it has to be the founding principle of the show). Between 13.9 & 13.10, Mary is back.  For Supernatural, we see a Big Bad release (or hint of one), for Wayward Daughters, they are left in charge of the rip in the space/time continuum on this side of the rift.  Maybe Jack goes to the other side to hold the fort there?  
13.11-onward, the usual pattern of MOTW & mytharc, focused on AU Big Bad.

Singer said that last season was the family coming together and this season is what do you do when it gets ripped apart.  So I think there is still SOME damage left in the second half of the season that has to be reconciled or it wouldn't be the season-long theme.  

Again, just spitballin'

Of course, I LIKE the show and so it should come as no surprise that I find this has a great deal of potential for a lot of interesting character stories and arcs.

Edited August 6, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If I didn't loathe Andrew Dabb and his band of crappy writers so much, I would wish for Benny back, above all others (including Bobby, Mary and any other dead character). As it stands , I don't want them anywhere near his character.

Berens kind of did a mini-hatchet job on Benny in the Werther Project, by having him try to coax Dean into suicide but to be fair that was also IMO Dean's subconscious mind trying to find a way to where if he can't control the Mark in his world, Purgatory would have been a place to go where he could have lived with the Mark, sate the bloodlust without being a threat to any humans.  I just wish Benny hadn't been the character to try and lure him to suicide. 

How simple would it have been for them to send Dean back to Purgatory with the Mark, give Jensen a little more time in that arc that he stills speaks of even at 2017 Comic Con. The Darkness is never set free because I would think Purgatory would have been off limits to the spell.  But they could have at least TRIED to send him to Purgatory, but I digress.

I was thinking about Misha saying he meets a handsome talented actor in that other dimension. Assuming he's not being facetious about himself, could he be seeing Cain? I KNOW that Tim Omundson is  recovering from a stroke but maybe he's recovered enough to do a little work?   I know  Tim and Misha have a mutual admiration society where they both say how handsome the other actor is and Tim has  in the commentary from The Executioner's Song, that if he were inclined towards men, Misha would be who he would be with.  He loves his stunning blue eyes.  It might also explain why Misha wasn't really sure how they were going to be able to film it. IIf Tim is unable to travel to Vancouver, perhaps  they could film Cain's part by using some kind of improved Rotoscope thing they used with JDM in s2.  Wouldn't it be amazing if the show gave Tim some work?  Obviously, nothing that would be over taxing for Tim.

I'm sure it's highly unlikely and nearly impossible but I'm gonna throw that out there is a WILD ASS SPEC.  Castiel and Cain meeting in the Empty and talking about Dean would be my jam that's for sure.

Edited August 6, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

Of course, I LIKE the show and so it should come as no surprise that I find this has a great deal of potential for a lot of interesting character stories and arcs.

Contrary to appearances, I LIKE the show too, and I see potential (in everything but the continued existence of Lucifer), I just don't share any optimism in this showrunner and writers to deliver. IMO they failed in nearly every aspect of S12, up to and including the resolution of the BMOL debacle and the killing off of Crowley. It feels to me like they are writing towards the end of the show (as we know it) and unfortunately, IMO, they are doing it at the expense of my favourite character (Dean, obv), and the heart of the show, the Winchester Brothers are becoming secondary, if not superfluous, in their own story.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe they were worried about age differences between Jody/Donna and the rest of the girls:  that it would seem like the younger ones were the "daughters".  Making the whole thing "sisters" would imply that there isn't that big an age gap, and Jody and Donna are just the big sisters instead of parental figures.   (I know, they don't give fans enough credit, but maybe they were worried about attracting a new, younger crowd who didn't already know about "Wayward Sons," so this would put all the women on the same level.)  

The whole reason Jody took in Alex was because of the mother factor and Claire came later because she lost her parents.  Cas was trying to be a dad-lite but that was weird for Claire to an extent.  It's weird to me that Jody was framed as the mother figure to Dean and Sam who are much closer to her age, like close enough in age IMO that I lowkey shipped Sam and Jody.  Alex and Claire are actually the right age to be Jody's daughters.

There are so many shows that focus on sons and their relationships with their fathers and mothers, but few that show daughters and mothers other than as rivals or dysfunctional in some way. I was hopeful with Wayward Daughters, that it would show a different side to mothers and daughters. I am marginally less interested in it because of the name change which implies to me that the focus will be on the bonding between the younger characters as sisters vs the mother/daughter connections.  I could also be totally wrong and the name change is cosmetic.

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

Well, if someone from the AU is the Big Bad in the backhalf of S13 (per Dabb & Singer), then it seems to me the rift opens up and is the "hellmouth" at the midseason finale/pilot premiere (tm... DittyDotDot or whomever said rift=hellmouth first).  

Well, that was my original thought, but I'm now thinking the Spawn opens more than one rift trying to open the right rift. I think the "hellmouth" for the Wayward Sisters may not be the same one to the Alternate with Mary and Lucifer. But, I do think the Spawn will eventually get it right. 

Does that make sense?

[Diane]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Berens kind of did a mini-hatchet job on Benny in the Werther Project, by having him try to coax Dean into suicide but to be fair that was also IMO Dean's subconscious mind trying to find a way to where if he can't control the Mark in his world, Purgatory would have been a place to go where he could have lived with the Mark, sate the bloodlust without being a threat to any humans.  I just wish Benny hadn't been the character to try and lure him to suicide. 

How simple would it have been for them to send Dean back to Purgatory with the Mark, give Jensen a little more time in that arc that he stills speaks of even at 2017 Comic Con. The Darkness is never set free because I would think Purgatory would have been off limits to the spell.  But they could have at least TRIED to send him to Purgatory, but I digress.

I was thinking about Misha saying he meets a handsome talented actor in that other dimension. Assuming he's not being facetious about himself, could he be seeing Cain? I KNOW that Tim Omundson is  recovering from a stroke but maybe he's recovered enough to do a little work?   I know  Tim and Misha have a mutual admiration society where they both say how handsome the other actor is and Tim has  in the commentary from The Executioner's Song, that if he were inclined towards men, Misha would be who he would be with.  He loves his stunning blue eyes.  It might also explain why Misha wasn't really sure how they were going to be able to film it. IIf Tim is unable to travel to Vancouver, perhaps  they could film Cain's part by using some kind of improved Rotoscope thing they used with JDM in s2.  Wouldn't it be amazing if the show gave Tim some work?  Obviously, nothing that would be over taxing for Tim.

I'm sure it's highly unlikely and nearly impossible but I'm gonna throw that out there is a WILD ASS SPEC.  Castiel and Cain meeting in the Empty and talking about Dean would be my jam that's for sure.

 Timothy  Omundson had a stroke and he is still in rehab, they have had to rework what he is doing on Psych because of it. I don't think he will be reprising his roll anytime soon.

[ster1]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Thanks @gonzosgirrl. Totally derped with Ramiel and Dagon.

 

1

I can't find the criteria for your death list (sorry!) so I don't know if you're counting every one? If so, here are a few others:  the family of 3 witches in "Regarding Dean", that meat locker god and the 3 kids in "Memory Remains"; the secret service agents ; the witch in "Twigs & Twine" , Gavin and his fiance's victims (2?) in "Family Feud"; Magda's family (3) and the stigmata lady; Ishim, Benjamin.  And that's not counting the people who died in flashbacks. There be a whole lot of death last season.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, ster1 said:

I can't find the criteria for your death list (sorry!) so I don't know if you're counting every one? If so, here are a few others:  the family of 3 witches in "Regarding Dean", that meat locker god and the 3 kids in "Memory Remains"; the secret service agents ; the witch in "Twigs & Twine" , Gavin and his fiance's victims (2?) in "Family Feud"; Magda's family (3) and the stigmata lady; Ishim, Benjamin.  And that's not counting the people who died in flashbacks. There be a whole lot of death last season.

I haven't been including the VoTW that die at the beginning. But I'll add the ones you've provided. Thank you!

Quote

*Updated death pool as of 8/6/2017

h/t @SueB, @mertensia, @gonzosgirrl @ster1

BMOL:
Ketch
Mick
Hess
Lady SHEDEAD
Lady SHEDEAD's Henchbitch
Other members during the raid on the BMOL bunker in 12.22, but unclear how many (10?)
Rogue Hunter/BMOL traitor  played by Aaron Douglas

Hunters:
Asa Fox and a few other hunters at his funeral(4?)
Eileen
Wally
Roy (presumed dead) *

Non-hunter/hunter adjacent
Magda/Magda's mother
Tasha and Alicia Banes
Kelly
Vince Vicente and his bandmates (5?)
Supernatural entities:
Crowley
Castiel
Rowena
Billie
Ramiel
Dagon
Joshua
The Alpha Vamp and some vampires (10?)
Lucifer's minions (3?)
Crowley's minions (3?)
Hitler and his minions (5?)
The Meat Locker God and his victims (3)
Ishim
Benjamin
The Witch in Tasha Banes
Gavin and his wife

Am I missing any, non Apocalypses/Darkness released division?

Thus far that ~70 deaths in s12. NOT including the VoTW 

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Am I missing any, non Apocalypses/Darkness released division?

Thus far that ~70 deaths in s12. NOT including the VoTW 

Hmmm....what about that smug, top-of-his-class BMoL that Eileen killed?  (Can't remember his name).

And if you're including Magda's mother, how about her father and brother?  (I'm not counting her two VotW that brought the boys to town).  

And (I think someone earlier mentioned) the witch family in Regarding Dean (Dean killed two (including the one who whammied him) and Sam one, I think? Or did Rowena kill the woman?)  

Mirabel, the angel killed by Lily Sunder (I think Benjamin was killed offscreen?) 

Mary killed at least one hunter (Rick) when brainwashed (and in the beginning of There's Something About Mary, Sam mentioned that Eileen was the second hunter death in two weeks, and Crowley mentioned that the BMoL were killing American hunters, though we never heard who or how many.)  

Then there are some that I'm not sure if we classify as vics or Winchester-related deaths, like the priest killed by Lucifer in LOTUS (I think), and all the soldiers, secret service/whatever (and the lab guy) killed by Ketch in First Blood.  BOY the BMoL really ramped up the death count this year!

Edited August 7, 2017 by ahrtee
added ep title to clarify

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Hmmm....what about that smug, top-of-his-class BMoL that Eileen killed?  (Can't remember his name).

And if you're including Magda's mother, how about her father and brother?  (I'm not counting her two VotW that brought the boys to town).  

And (I think someone earlier mentioned) the witch family in Regarding Dean (Dean killed two (including the one who whammied him) and Sam one, I think? Or did Rowena kill the woman?)  

Mirabel, the angel killed by Lily Sunder (I think Benjamin was killed offscreen?) 

Mary killed at least one hunter (Rick) when brainwashed (and in the beginning of There's Something About Mary, Sam mentioned that Eileen was the second hunter death in two weeks, and Crowley mentioned that the BMoL were killing American hunters, though we never heard who or how many.)  

Then there are some that I'm not sure if we classify as vics or Winchester-related deaths, like the priest killed by Lucifer in LOTUS (I think), and all the soldiers, secret service/whatever (and the lab guy) killed by Ketch in First Blood.  BOY the BMoL really ramped up the death count this year!

It was a very busy year for Reapers. But... should we move the death toll to 'All Seasons'?

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

It was a very busy year for Reapers. But... should we move the death toll to 'All Seasons'?

Should it be in "All Seasons" if we're only talking about one season? :)  (Sorry...)  We can continue there (if there's anything more to add.)  

Or maybe the "spec" would be which ones might be coming back?  (There's Cas for sure, and maybe Rowena?)  

[Jonesy]

12 hours ago, SueB said:

Well, if someone from the AU is the Big Bad in the backhalf of S13 (per Dabb & Singer), then it seems to me the rift opens up and is the "hellmouth" at the midseason finale/pilot premiere (tm... DittyDotDot or whomever said rift=hellmouth first).  

My guessing based on what we know so far:
13.1/13.2 Immediate aftermath, Cas' funeral - flashbacks into the AU for Sam & Dean, real AU visit for Mary & Lucifer - Jack runs away after Dean tries to kill him, they get him back by the end of the second episode.
13.3 Jodi & Missouri Mosley  - Whatever the 'MOTW' is, I think MM tells Sam & Dean stuff about Mary, and possibly that she's still alive. 
13.4/13.15 MOTW, AU check-in w/ Mary/Luci, Cas meets Different Cas in the OTHER alternate plane. Raising Jack shenanigans.
13.6 Cas is back, meets Jack has some theory on how to get to Mary.
13.7-13.8 MOTW's sprinkled with whatever attempts to get Jack to open the rift to get Mary. AU check-ins.
13.9 Get back Mary attempt, takes them to Jody's neck of the woods.... maybe ends with the rift opening and the boys going in? May have MM guiding them 'psychically' somehow. (like going after Carol Anne but no ropes!)
13.10 Wayward Sisters pilot, I'm not sure how 'stand alone' it is because I think it's connected to 13.9.  The rift maynot open until THIS episode (as it has to be the founding principle of the show). Between 13.9 & 13.10, Mary is back.  For Supernatural, we see a Big Bad release (or hint of one), for Wayward Daughters, they are left in charge of the rip in the space/time continuum on this side of the rift.  Maybe Jack goes to the other side to hold the fort there?  
13.11-onward, the usual pattern of MOTW & mytharc, focused on AU Big Bad.

Singer said that last season was the family coming together and this season is what do you do when it gets ripped apart.  So I think there is still SOME damage left in the second half of the season that has to be reconciled or it wouldn't be the season-long theme.  

Again, just spitballin'

Of course, I LIKE the show and so it should come as no surprise that I find this has a great deal of potential for a lot of interesting character stories and arcs.

Sounds like reasonable supposition.  Would add Cas will probably alternate between being kind of a daddy to Jack and mixing in with the boys.  I also LIKE the show and strongly disagree with those who think Dabb and his writers are awful.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Non-hunter/hunter adjacent
Magda/Magda's mother

Wait.  I haven't really been keeping up with this, so I apologize if someone else has already mentioned it and I'm being redundant, but Magda's mother didn't die.  She was led off in handcuffs by the police at the end of the episode.

[catrox14]

54 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Wait.  I haven't really been keeping up with this, so I apologize if someone else has already mentioned it and I'm being redundant, but Magda's mother didn't die.  She was led off in handcuffs by the police at the end of the episode.

Yeah, my bad. I was distracted when I was updating that list, so I'll do another revision.  I can't decide if I should put in the all seasons thread or leave it here because it's really mostly s12 in discussion and there isn't an individual catchall for each individual season.   I dunno, I'll decide LOL

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah, my bad. I was distracted when I was updating that list, so I'll do another revision.  I can't decide if I should put in the all seasons thread or leave it here because it's really mostly s12 in discussion and there isn't an individual catchall for each individual season.   I dunno, I'll decide LOL

Could you make a catch-all thread for that season under the S12 folder?

ETA: All seasons is pretty good, because so many themes do span seasons.  But I also think it would be nice sometimes to have a 'catch-all' for each individual season if conversation were limited to a particular season so it wouldn't get too confusing.

ETA2: Sorry to all for the off-topic, non spoilery post!

Edited August 7, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
catch-all

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Could you make a catch-all thread for that season under the S12 folder?

ETA: All seasons is pretty good, because so many themes do span seasons.  But I also think it would be nice sometimes to have a 'catch-all' for each individual season if conversation were limited to a particular season so it wouldn't get too confusing.

ETA2: Sorry to all for the off-topic, non spoilery post!

 

I agree that it would be nice to talk about the entirety of each season outside of the all seasons thread.  I'll check with a mod to see if that's cool to do. 

[catrox14]

I posted the question about "season" threads in the Mod announcements thread. We'll see what they have to say.

[Jonesy]

SpoilerTV has the titles for first 9 episodes and episode 16:

 

1. Lost and Found

2. The Rising Sun

3. Patience

4. The Big Empty

5. Advanced Thanatology

6. Tombstone

7. War of the Worlds

8. The Scorpion and the Frog

9. The Bad Place

16. Scoobynatural

 

 

So 4 The Big Empty tells us where Castiel is and I guess when we first see him there.  6 is when Castiel is suppose to return--so does he come back thru the Tombstone...probably metaphorically?  War of the Worlds sounds like maybe the AU world in play with our world.  And the Bad Place, is that the Hellmouth that Jody and the girls will deal with?  And Scoobynatural--it fits!

Edited August 7, 2017 by Jakes

[ILoveReading]

21 minutes ago, Jakes said:

1. Lost and Found

2. The Rising Sun

3. Patience

4. The Big Empty

5. Advanced Thanatology

6. Tombstone

7. War of the Worlds

8. The Scorpion and the Frog

9. The Bad Place

16. Scoobynatural

My guesses

Lost and Found- Sam deciding that they're going to raise Jack, and talking about how to get Mary back. 

The Rising Sun- Sam playing dad to the nephlim.  Dean rolls his eyes a lot.

Patience- The introduction of Missouri's grand daughter. 

The Big Empty- Cas in the Empty

Advanced Thanatology- Deals with Sam's grief.

Tombstone- Cas comes back

War of The World- Takes place in the AU.  Sam probably saves Mary. 

The Scorpion the The Frog- Jack turns bad. 

The Bad Place- Jack opens up the Hellmouth and the start of Wayward Sisters

Edited August 7, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

22 hours ago, Jakes said:

4. The Big Empty

You know. I was enjoying the spec about the Empty, but I was not really eager for it to be true but assuming this is pointing to that, I am now officially annoyed. 

There is predictable, lazy storytelling and there is natural paths in storytelling and a natural path does not always equal predictable storytelling. To me, Jackifer's SL was 100% tied to Cas for a damn season and it made sense for him to finish out that SL. It would have been emotionally satisfying. And the unpredictability would be in how Cas deals with him, not that Cas wouldn't deal with him.  Similarly, the Empty was the threat LOOMING for TWO seasons over the Winchesters and the logical path was to somehow follow through on that threat.

But nope Dabb is just like 'NAH, the Winchesters get to fight over Jackifer and Cas is killed off and goes to the Empty'. Zero emotional  payoff for either plot point/SL for any of the three characters, IMO. 

I'm not a stupid viewer and I get why some things are sent in an unexpected direction, like the AU or Soulless Sam which IMO was not a predictable outcome for Sam going to Hell and that is a satisfying twist. 

And sometimes the most satisfying thing is for a SL to go where it's logically headed which is not the same as predictable storytelling. For instance, Demon!Dean was a logical progression from the MoC and I know it was predicted by many viewers, which is not to say it was predictable storytelling. I know I didn't think they would really go there and they did.  In s3, the SL had Dean headed for Hell,  which was the logical path to follow, and yet, I was still shocked they went there. The ultimate followup to those choices was less satisfying. In s9, Cas falling was a logical path but Metatron stealing his grace was unexpected and IMO satisfying storytelling to create human!Cas. To me those choices met the "Give them what they want in a way they don't' expect" criteria.

For me, Cas dealing with Jackifer is logical and IMO would have been satisfying. Sam and Dean getting tossed into the Empty would have been unexpected because it means the show wasn't afraid to actually do what they were threatening to do for two seasons; that would have been the "Give them what they want in a way they don't expect" mantra. Show, it really is okay to do that on occasion. I'LL STILL WATCH. I promise. This is giving me something I didn't want in a way I didn't ask for and IMO is not satisfying storytelling. YMMV

So if the boys give Cas a hunter's funeral by actually burning his body, and if the Empty is really the place that someone can never come back from, then how will Cas come back without there being divine intervention from Ghuck/Amara.  Or maybe Death?

Advanced Thanatology - Thanatology is the study of death. I can't really decide what to make of that.

Edited August 8, 2017 by catrox14

[Jonesy]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You know. I was enjoying the spec about the Empty, but I was not really eager for it to be true but assuming this is pointing to that, I am now officially annoyed. 

There is predictable, lazy storytelling and there is natural paths in storytelling and a natural path does not always equal predictable storytelling. To me, Jackifer's SL was 100% tied to Cas for a damn season and it made sense for him to finish out that SL. It would have been emotionally satisfying. And the unpredictability would be in how Cas deals with him, not that Cas wouldn't deal with him.  Similarly, the Empty was the threat LOOMING for TWO seasons over the Winchesters and the logical path was to somehow follow through on that threat.

But nope Dabb is just like NAH, "Here the Winchesters get to fight over Jackifer and Cas is killed off and goes to the Empty. Zero emotional  payoff for either plot point/SL for any of the three characters, IMO. 

I'm not a stupid viewer and I get why some things are sent in an unexpected direction, like the AU or Soulless Sam which IMO was not a predictable outcome for Sam going to Hell and that is a satisfying twist. 

And sometimes the most satisfying thing is for a SL to go where it's logically headed which is not the same as predictable storytelling. For instance, Demon!Dean was a logical progression from the MoC and I know it was predicted by many viewers, which is not to say it was predictable storytelling. I know I didn't think they would really go there and they did.  And in s3, the SL had Dean headed for Hell,  and it was the logical path to follow through, and yet, I was still shocked they went there. The ultimate followup to those choices was less satisfying.  Or in with Cas falling was a logical path but Metatron stealing his grace was unexpected and IMO satisfying storytelling to create human!Cas. To me those choices met the "Give them what they want in a way they don't' expect" criteria.

For me, Cas dealing with Jackifer is logical and IMO would have been satisfying. Sam and Dean getting tossed into the Empty WOULD have been unexpected because it means the show wasn't afraid to actually do what they were threatening to do for two seasons.  For me, THAT would have been the twist, that would have been the "Give them what they want in a way they don't expect". Show, it really is okay to do that on occasion. I'LL STILL WATCH. I promise. This is giving me something I didn't want in a want I didn't ask for and IMO is not satisfying storytelling. YMMV

So if the boys give Cas a hunter's funeral by actually burning his body, and if the Empty is really the place that someone can never come back from, then how will Cas come back without there being divine intervention from Ghuck/Amara.  Or maybe Death?

Well Cas is coming back in episode 6 and Misha says Jack sees him much like a daddy...so we will get that eventually.  With the Empty now I'm thinking this was the cosmic consequence for Cas interfering with that deal...otherwise why would Cas end up in the area that Billie threatened with the boys.  Though I guess they could come up with another reason Cas is specifically there.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Jakes

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, Jakes said:

9. The Bad Place

Will this one guest star Ted Danson and Kristen Bell?

 

More serious thoughts to come later. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

21 hours ago, Jakes said:

Well Cas is coming back in episode 6 and Misha says Jack sees him much like a daddy...so we will get that eventually.  With the Empty now I'm thinking this was the cosmic consequence for Cas interfering with that deal...otherwise why would Cas end up in the area that she threatened with the boys.  Though I guess they could come up with another reason Cas is specifically there.

Cas being in the Empty only works for me if that is the final resting place for angels.

If they make Cas going into the Empty as the onsequence of killing Billie, that doesn't really make much sense IMO. Dean and Sam made BLOOD oaths with Billie that she would take one of them and that reneging on the deal would be the cosmic consequence. Even taking Mary shouldn't have worked but fine she's a blood relative but Cas is not. There shouldn't be any kind of transitive property where Cas killing Billie ended their blood pact. It just prevented her from taking them. None of the three original parties in the blood pact reneged on the deal.  It should still be in place and IMO when one of the boys dies, they should still go into the Empty. IMO, it would take another blood oath with Billie's blood to reverse it, or some kind of special divine dispensation to remove it, not the murder of one of the parties by someone not involved in the original blood pact.

Quote

You don't have to do this.

Yeah, they do. We made a pact. Bound in blood. 

You break that, there's consequences on a cosmic scale. So who's it gonna be?

Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=30749

Edited August 8, 2017 by catrox14
clarifying thoughts

[catrox14]

If the show is going back to using classic song titles I've found a sampling of the lyrics that might be meaningful. CAVEAT: This may mean nothing at all whatsoever.

1. Lost and Found: The Kinks

We were lost and found, in the nick of time
While the ship was going down
We were lost and found, just in time
With the hurricane crossing the coast line
We were lost and found, just in time
This thing is bigger than the both of us
It's gonna put us in our place
We were lost and found, just in time
Now we've got no time to waste

2. The Rising Sun:  (reference to House of the Rising Sun maybe ?) 

Oh mother, tell your children
Not to do what I have done
Spend your lives in sin and misery
In the House of the Rising Sun

3. Patience : Guns N Roses

I sit here on the stairs
'Cause I'd rather be alone
If I can't have you right now
I'll wait, dear
Sometimes I get so tense
But I can't speed up the time
But you know, love
There's one more thing to consider

4. The Big Empty: Stone Temple Pilots 

drivin' faster in my car
falling farther from just what we are
smoke a cigarette and lie some more
these conversations kill
falling faster in my car

5. Advanced Thanatology:  Can't find a song about this but there is a practice of musical thanatology where in music is used to help ease the pain of death, to help with the process of dying. I don't know again what to make of this.  Maybe Dean will use his music to cope with Cas' death? Maybe they get a case where music is killing people? Who knows.

6. Tombstone: Can't find a song reference but maybe this is a reference to the film or they go to Tombstone AZ for a case?

7. War of the Worlds: Not finding a specific song just references to the soundtrack from the film.

8. The Scorpion and the Frog: There is song from a rock musical called the The Devil's Carnival, which I've never heard of before.

9. The Bad Place : There is an Oasis song called Hung in a Bad Place.  Hard to say what that means.

That's all I've got.

Edited August 8, 2017 by catrox14
clarifying thoughts

[Res]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Cas being in the Empty only works for me if that is the final resting place for angels.

If they tie Cas going into the Empty as a consequence of killing Billie, that doesn't really make much sense IMO. Dean and Sam made BLOOD oaths with Billie that she would take one of them and one of the reneging would be the cosmic consequence. Even taking Mary shouldn't have worked but fine she's a blood relative but Cas is not. There shouldn't be any kind of transitive property where Cas killing Billie ended their blood pact. It just prevented her from taking them. Essentially none of the 3 parties to that blood pact ever reneged on the deal.  It should still be in place and when one of the boys dies, they should still go into the Empty. IMO, it would take another blood oath with Billie's blood to undo it or some kind of special divine dispensation to remove it, not the murder of one of the parties.  IMO.

I agree. If Dean killing Death, big daddy reaper, had NO consequences, killing Billie shouldn't have any consequences either. So, the Empty being the resting place for angels is the ONLY way it works for me. 

[nightwing877]

On 07/08/2017 at 2:01 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I only watched a couple episodes of the anime series, so I can't comment on whether it was more Kripke's vision or not. I'd say it probably represents many of the things they couldn't afford to do on the show, though. So maybe somewhere in between?

Yep your probably right. I did like how Missouri was written in it. 

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

My guesses

Lost and Found- Sam deciding that they're going to raise Jack, and talking about how to get Mary back. 

The Rising Sun- Sam playing dad to the nephlim.  Dean rolls his eyes a lot.

Patience- The introduction of Missouri's grand daughter. 

The Big Empty- Cas in the Empty

Advanced Thanatology- Deals with Sam's grief.

Tombstone- Cas comes back

War of The World- Takes place in the AU.  Sam probably saves Mary. 

The Scorpion the The Frog- Jack turns bad. 

The Bad Place- Jack opens up the Hellmouth and the start of Wayward Sisters

Cas will be back by episode 6 I guess. 

I think Mary is likely going to remain in the AU world and isn't rescue until mid-season but one or both brothers finds a way into it before episode 9. I think episode 7 is going to be AU heavy. Curious if any of the AU counterparts to deceased characters escapes the AU and not just Mary coming back. I kinda hope not, even if I want to see them again, because it isn't really them.

Edited August 8, 2017 by nightwing877

[SueB]

 Thanatology  (from Wikipedia)

Quote

Thanatology is the scientific study of death. It investigates the mechanisms and forensic aspects of death, such as bodily changes that accompany death and the post-mortem period, as well as wider psychological and social aspects related to death. It is primarily an interdisciplinary study offered as a course of study at numerous colleges and universities.

The word is derived from the Greek language. In Greek mythology, Thanatos(θάνατος: "death") is the personification of death.[1] The English suffix -ologyderives from the Greek suffix -logia (-λογια: "speaking").

...just saying.

[AwesomO4000]

On 8/1/2017 at 4:27 PM, catrox14 said:

I get how you feel. I have the same problem with a character in Arrow that I hate. And here I feel that way about Ruby and Lucifer. So if it's any consolation, I've started prepping my coping tools for s13 (whiskey, chocolate, wine, etc). You may want to consider doing the same. I  think we'll see Benny back more than once and likely not just to kill him off, especially if Jensen has anything to say about it. He has been mentioning getting Benny back repeatedly even after Benny had the appearance in s10. 

I want to see Team Purgatory back together but this time everyone is getting along and Cas and Benny aren't bickering.

Evil Alternate Benny?

No nevermind. Sam would probably be fooled, because of guilt for misunderstanding the real Benny and Dean would have to save him from evil Benny or something with an "of course he was evil."

Oh, well. I might've enjoyed evil Benny.

[auntvi]

More specifics for the first 3 episodes (from lipglosskaz):
 

Quote

 

Episode detail spoilers

Episode 1: “Lost and Found”   Directed by Philip Sgriccia. Written by Andrew Dabb.  starring: Rob Raco as  Clark 

Episode 2: “The Rising Sun”  Directed by Thomas J. Wright. Written by BuckLemming. starring: Samantha Smith  and Mark Sweatman (TATTOOIST!!!!)

Episode 3: “Patience” Directed by  Robert Singer. Written by Robert Berens. starring Clark Backo as Patience Turner (who will be in the backdoor Pilot as Missouri Mosleys granddaughter) Loretta Devine and Kim Rhodes.

Episode 10 “ Wayward Sisters”  written by Robert Berens and Andrew Dabb. Starring Kim Rhodes, Clark Backo, Loretta Devine, Briana Buckmaster, Kathryn Newton, Katherine Ramdeen.

 

[ILoveReading]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

8. The Scorpion and the Frog: There is song from a rock musical called the The Devil's Carnival. Never heard of it before

What comes to my mind more than a song is the old Aesop Fable. 

Where the scorpion asks to ride across a pond on the frogs back.  The frog is wary of being stung so the scorpion assures him that he won't because if he does they'll both by doomed.  About half way across the scorpion stings the frog.  The frog asks why because now they're both dead and the scorpion says its in his nature.

This is why I think this will be a Jack episode. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by ILoveReading

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, auntvi said:

Episode 2: “The Rising Sun”  Directed by Thomas J. Wright. Written by BuckLemming. starring: Samantha Smith  and Mark Sweatman (TATTOOIST!!!!)

Well, my first thought was that the boys insist Mary get an anti-possession tattoo, and that's why we see a peak at Sam and Dean's.  But that only works if Mary's out of the AU by then.  Maybe she gets possessed  in the AU?  Huh.  Got nothing on why Sam wouldn't have had his anti-possession tattoo done long ago after Gadreel - unless it's simply for - how did TripleD put it? -  gratuitous eye candy.  Yeah, I'm okay with that.  ;)

[DittyDotDot]

Maybe they insist Jack get a tattoo? I mean, it would not be good if the most powerful being on the planet gets possessed by anything... . ;)

Edited August 8, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Could Jack actually get possessed if he's half angel?  Wouldn't another angel need permission?  And can a demon possess an angel?

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Could Jack actually get possessed if he's half angel?  Wouldn't another angel need permission?  And can a demon possess an angel?

Your guess is as good as mine. Crowley possessed Sam while he was also possessed by Gadreel, so... ?

But I was just being silly. It really could be that the case of the week just revolves around a tattoo parlor rather than anyone getting a tat. Maybe the boys just show their own ink or something? However, I believe it was said Jack is supposed to work a case with the boys, so I wouldn't put it out of the range of possibilities. ;)

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Could Jack actually get possessed if he's half angel?  Wouldn't another angel need permission?  And can a demon possess an angel?

It would be possible. Don't forget Castiel was possessed by Lucifer, while both were in angel mode.

[Jonesy]

10 hours ago, SueB said:

 Thanatology  (from Wikipedia)

...just saying.

Hmmm....So Cas is in the Big Empty with Death--that would makes sense.