Spoilers With Speculation

[ZennyKenny]

38 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But he's not going to kill Sam or Dean, at least not permanently until the show ends, so again, what's the point?

How's that different than any other antagonist on the show?

[catrox14]

I don't want Lucifer to get redemption. I mean he is the Devil after all. If you redeem the Devil, save God and his sister....what's left? LOL

[MysteryGuest]

11 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

How's that different than any other antagonist on the show?

It isn't, but my point was that there's nothing else to his character.  Crowley might not have killed Sam or Dean, but he could certainly screw them over if it got him what he wanted.  There was at least that unknown aspect of his character.  There's nothing new about Lucifer.  He's the baddest of the bad guys, and he's going to always need to be kept at arms length to make his presence believable, because he has no reason not to kill Sam and Dean...Crowley did.

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't want Lucifer to get redemption. I mean he is the Devil after all. If you redeem the Devil, save God and his sister....what's left? LOL

I agree, which is why they should have locked him back in the Cage.  

[ZennyKenny]

12 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

It isn't, but my point was that there's nothing else to his character. 

What's sad is that, I get where you're coming from; it certainly seems like there's nothing left. But I believe that's because of the way they've written him. I believe that there's a lot more potential to his story, but the writers just have no ideas. Even just his relationship to the Winchesters has been one big fail. There should be a LOT more tension than what's shown. Sam should be visibly fighting off waves of terror just being anywhere near him. Dean, knowing that Lucifer tortured the hell out of his little brother, should barely be able to contain his rage. Maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit, but there certainly needs to be much more depth than has been shown.

It may be too late for that, but having a son in the equation offers some new possibilities, especially since Lucifer would hate the idea of Jack being raised by the Winchesters. Worse yet, he should be furious at the idea that Jack might even think of Castiel, the Winchesters' "purse dog", as his father.

Edited June 15, 2017 by ZennyKenny

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

It may be too late for that, but having a son in the equation offers some new possibilities, especially since Lucifer would hate the idea of Jack being raised by the Winchesters. Worse yet, he should be furious at the idea that Jack might even think of Castiel as his father.

I definitely think there's plenty of opportunity for Lucifer to be even more pissed off than he already is, because of the reasons you mention.  But what do we do with an even more powerful and vindictive enemy than we already have?  He's already more than they can handle.  

I admit that I'm biased because I truly am just over him, and I know that not everyone feels that way.  I think Mark P. is a fine enough actor, but the writers have their work cut out for themselves in trying to make his character even the least bit interesting to me.  I'll be more than happy to eat my words if the writers are successful in doing that, because better writing is a win for all of us.

[gonzosgirrl]

49 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

How's that different than any other antagonist on the show?

The difference is that at all of the other antagonists have/had an Achilles heal, some sort of vulnerability that left at least the possibility that Dean and Sam could beat them. Lucifer has killed literally every other person/entity he chose to, usually with just a snap of his fingers. It really makes no sense that he hasn't killed them thus far, except for his arrogance. At least with Crowley, there has been a 7 season long arc of him needing/working with them, right from the jump (giving them back the Colt to attempt to kill Lucifer). There's history and at least some credibility to him leaving them alive, that Lucifer just doesn't have.  He doesn't work as a frenemy, and he's too powerful as a full-on enemy.

[AwesomO4000]

Lucifer has at least some vulnerabilities even if they are often temporary. He was locked in the cage for a long time. Sam and Dean locked him in again, and he would have been locked in a third time if not for Crowley. Crowley also managed to find a way to bind Lucifer for a while, and Lucifer pretty much only got out because of the work of a demon who helped him escape.

The only being in SPNverse who seems to be invulnerable is Chuck/God and maybe now that she's free, Amara, and that's likely only because Death is dead - otherwise Death said he would reap God also. And speaking of Death, even he could be bound and even killed. If Dean can kill Death, I can't see why they can't kill or at least neutralize Lucifer.

[The Morning Star]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Lucifer has at least some vulnerabilities even if they are often temporary. He was locked in the cage for a long time. Sam and Dean locked him in again, and he would have been locked in a third time if not for Crowley. Crowley also managed to find a way to bind Lucifer for a while, and Lucifer pretty much only got out because of the work of a demon who helped him escape.

The only being in SPNverse who seems to be invulnerable is Chuck/God and maybe now that she's free, Amara, and that's likely only because Death is dead - otherwise Death said he would reap God also. And speaking of Death, even he could be bound and even killed. If Dean can kill Death, I can't see why they can't kill or at least neutralize Lucifer.

Death handed Dean his own weapon, Unless they get their hands on an Archangel Blade somehow it has been proven for 12 seasons that they cannot kill Lucifer on their own.

 

As for Death, he was always the odd one for me, I never thought he fit in the mythology.

[ZennyKenny]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The difference is that at all of the other antagonists have/had an Achilles heal, some sort of vulnerability that left at least the possibility that Dean and Sam could beat them. Lucifer has killed literally every other person/entity he chose to, usually with just a snap of his fingers. It really makes no sense that he hasn't killed them thus far, except for his arrogance. At least with Crowley, there has been a 7 season long arc of him needing/working with them, right from the jump (giving them back the Colt to attempt to kill Lucifer). There's history and at least some credibility to him leaving them alive, that Lucifer just doesn't have.  He doesn't work as a frenemy, and he's too powerful as a full-on enemy.

In the story and the SPN world, you're right, It doesn't make any sense at all why he doesn't just kill them. But I mean in a "tv show" sense. Every monster may as well have Lucifer's power because of what I believe you guys call "plot armor". Or maybe rather Lucifer may as well have the power of a MoTW. Because it makes no difference. I know that they are not going to kill off their two leads permanently until the last episode (maybe). That's why, to me, there's no tension when Sam or Dean's life is threatened. By ANY villain. I was honestly shocked way back in Swan Song, when they couldn't even wait until the start of a new season to reveal that Sam was brought back. Not shocked that he was alive, but that they wouldn't even let us wonder inbetween seasons. By the time Metatron "killed" Dean and they tried to give us another heart-felt scene, I was rolling my eyes.

So I guess my point is, in relation to speculation, is that I think they should make Lucifer scary again not by the empty threat that he could kill the Winchesters, but by other more inventive ways. We know that he has done unspeakable things to Sam in the cage. Imo torture is a scarier threat than death in a world where the two leads can't die. We've seen him treat Crowley like a dog rather than kill him, because he's sadistic like that. So there's potential for him to be a threat in different ways.

[The Morning Star]

A point that I'd like to add is that while Lucifer has not often been shown to look "scary" in recent seasons, his actions and how vulnerable he makes the heroes look is sufficiently terrifying for me personally.

I like strong bad guys or "heels" in pro wrestling as it will always mean more when they are finally defeated, that's why I'm looking forward to the final war between Team Free Will and Lucifer as his final defeat and demise will be a focal point in the show, it will have a huge pay off.

Edited June 16, 2017 by The Morning Star

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, The Morning Star said:

Death handed Dean his own weapon, Unless they get their hands on an Archangel Blade somehow it has been proven for 12 seasons that they cannot kill Lucifer on their own.

That doesn't mean they can't throw him back in the cage if necessary. Neutralize was one of the options I gave.

Yes, Rowena is dead, but that doesn't mean angels somewhere can't bring her back to life - they brought Adam back to life and he'd been given a hunter's funeral and his ashes left in the woods, so if Sam and Dean could convince angels to bring Rowena back if need be, she can be brought back. As I said, the only invulnerable beings at the moment that can't be killed - because Death is dead - or neutralized that we know of are Chuck and Amara. There are ways for everything else. It may not be easy - that's why there would be conflict - but it can be done.

Another option... where are the other Horsemens' rings? Dean theoretically should have them somewhere, and since time travel is an option via angel... they could travel back in time and "borrow" Death's ring from Recent Past Dean and make the key to the cage again. Getting Lucifer to fall back in might not be easy - and someone might have to push him - but not impossible.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't want Lucifer to get redemption. I mean he is the Devil after all. If you redeem the Devil, save God and his sister....what's left? LOL

Monsters.  Just 'plain' ol' monsters.  :D

[MysteryGuest]

34 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Monsters.  Just 'plain' ol' monsters.  :D

That would work for me.  Create some new monsters.  I thought the Chitters were particularly creepy, and that episode worked pretty well.  Give us monsters that are frightening and strong, but not infallible.  I'm sorry they killed the Alpha Vampire because he was great at being evil and creepy.  

Just plain old monsters work fine if the writers can be creative enough to make the stories interesting.  Just taking out a nest of vampires by walking in a chopping off all of their heads isn't interesting.  But it doesn't need to be that way.  Actually give the monsters a personality and a back story.  The possibilities are endless, but creative writing is a necessity.

[DittyDotDot]

I don't think they can make Lucifer scary, nor do I think Lucifer--the actual character--was ever scary on this show. The idea of Lucifer was scary, but once they put a face to that idea, it was no longer scary, if you ask me. Personally, I think the character is exactly the same as he was in S5--a petulant child throwing a perpetual hissy fit trying to get his daddy's attention. That's actually the problem with Lucifer, IMO, he never changes, nor can he really and still be called the Devil.

I think the bigger issue is the show can't help themselves; they never learned that lesson from Yellow Eyes--the bad guys are scarier the less we see or know of them and the less we hear them whining about their sad tale of woe. In fact, I think Yellow Eyes is still scarier than Lucifer has every been. I'd say the only time I thought Lucifer was scary was in S7 with Sam's hallucinations. But again, that's not Lucifer himself that was scary, but the idea of being tortured by the Devil and not knowing what's real or not.

So, yeah, I agree, they should just neutralize Luci again and be done with it. They probably won't; they're probably not done putting their grubby little hands all over everything from the past yet...but a girl can dream. 

Lucifer was a legitimate threat in S5 though simply because he was the most powerful thing they'd come up against at that time. Now, he's kinda small potatoes, IMO. There's really nothing out there at this point that I think of as a threat for Sam and Dean. That includes the spawn--which I'm still hoping isn't going to be basic "evil" because, really, that would be the most obvious and boring way to go, IMO. But, even if it does turn out to be next season's big bad, I have no doubt Sam and Dean will find a way to deal with it too; just like they did with Eve, just like they did with the Levis, just like they did with God's sister. 

Anyway, I think the show just needs to get back to hunting and stop with the big threats already. And, they could use some actual mystery on the show again. Start with something small and build on it. I think it can be done, but they have to be willing to take a chance and try something completely different.

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Yes, Rowena is dead, but that doesn't mean angels somewhere can't bring her back to life

They don't even have to work that hard. Rowena has a spell in her leg that is MAGIC!!! ;)

[Pondlass1]

The writers are concocting as we speak. They have to be running into problems with Lucifer.  As everyone has pointed out, Crowley used people to his own advantage so kept them alive, which made him easier to write.  Lucifer is pure evil (supposedly), all-powerful, and has zero use for S&D or anyone.    Luci's weak spot will be Jack, I guess.  But  I'm not enamoured with storyline in the least, I wouldn't want to be in the writers' shoes. They've written themselves into a corner with no door out.

 

I'm not a fan of the eye thing.  It's  simply a tactic to tell the audience 'this is a demon'.  And why does demon smoke  enter through the mouth and not the windows to our soul ... the eyes?   I don't even understand why they rummage about in someone's abdomen (without even lifting shirt) looking for a soul. Wouldn't the soul be located in the brain?  

[Pondlass1]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Anyway, I think the show just needs to get back to hunting and stop with the big threats already. And, they could use some actual mystery on the show again. Start with something small and build on it. I think it can be done, but they have to be willing to take a chance and try something completely different.

Hallelujah!!  I tried to say something like this a couple of weeks ago, but you've put it way more succinctly than I ever could.

Plus - stop spoon feeding the plot.  Let us wonder or speculate before you hit us with anvils, parallels, or scenes filled with exposition.  I don't need the bad guy's life history or aspirations.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't think they can make Lucifer scary, nor do I think Lucifer--the actual character--was ever scary on this show.

I thought the very first episode in Season 5 when he played mind games with the Nick vessel to get him to say yes was very atmospheric. Though maybe more cruel than scary. But since then he has become a whiny bully. 

Maybe the Spawn will neutralize him for good. I don`t think they will go for the 60th attempt to send him back to the Cage. And I don`t want the Michael Lance anywhere near this crap because you just know Sam would be the one to do it.

[Jonesy]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

The writers are concocting as we speak. They have to be running into problems with Lucifer.  As everyone has pointed out, Crowley used people to his own advantage so kept them alive, which made him easier to write.  Lucifer is pure evil (supposedly), all-powerful, and has zero use for S&D or anyone.    Luci's weak spot will be Jack, I guess.  But  I'm not enamoured with storyline in the least, I wouldn't want to be in the writers' shoes. They've written themselves into a corner with no door out.

 

I'm not a fan of the eye thing.  It's  simply a tactic to tell the audience 'this is a demon'.  And why does demon smoke  enter through the mouth and not the windows to our soul ... the eyes?   I don't even understand why they rummage about in someone's abdomen (without even lifting shirt) looking for a soul. Wouldn't the soul be located in the brain?  

Yes--this is my theory...that Jack is the check on Lucifer.  Either by challenging him as the top bad guy OR trying to be good with the help of his other dad Cas along with the boys.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I'm not a fan of the eye thing.  It's  simply a tactic to tell the audience 'this is a demon'.  And why does demon smoke  enter through the mouth and not the windows to our soul ... the eyes?   I don't even understand why they rummage about in someone's abdomen (without even lifting shirt) looking for a soul. Wouldn't the soul be located in the brain?  

They did enter through the eyes in Phantom Traveler but somewhere along the way the show changed that.

That's a good question on the soul. It kind of relates to a discussion in the Appointment in Samarra thread about whether Soulless Sam was a different person than Sam and I said that Sam didn't get a brain transplant and it doesn't alter his DNA so he's still the same person. It seems like the soul is tied with the heart more than the brain in the SPN verse, but I would be down for a change in canon that the soul is in the brain in some way hence why a person changes their behavior or why possession works because it's a place in their mind more than a physical space in the body. 

Hmmmm...interesting food for thought. 

[The Morning Star]

10 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That doesn't mean they can't throw him back in the cage if necessary. Neutralize was one of the options I gave.

Yes, Rowena is dead, but that doesn't mean angels somewhere can't bring her back to life - they brought Adam back to life and he'd been given a hunter's funeral and his ashes left in the woods, so if Sam and Dean could convince angels to bring Rowena back if need be, she can be brought back. As I said, the only invulnerable beings at the moment that can't be killed - because Death is dead - or neutralized that we know of are Chuck and Amara. There are ways for everything else. It may not be easy - that's why there would be conflict - but it can be done.

Another option... where are the other Horsemens' rings? Dean theoretically should have them somewhere, and since time travel is an option via angel... they could travel back in time and "borrow" Death's ring from Recent Past Dean and make the key to the cage again. Getting Lucifer to fall back in might not be easy - and someone might have to push him - but not impossible.

If they have the rings, that would render the entire race of the last season to entrap Lucifer meaningless.

Ressurecting Rowena is a possibility although we don't know if the broken winged Angels are able to ressurect anyone now.

I'm telling you, after all these season defeating Lucifer has been a little away from impossible, first time Dean got beaten to death, Sam had to commit suicide and Bobby and Cas were killed.

The second time, not only it took a rift in space time created by a Nephilim, Crowley had to commit suicide, Cas was killed and Mary got stuck in an alternate universe with Lucifer.

There's too much investment in this character now, the show can't have Lucifer easily defeated without making everybody look like huge buffoons.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

There's too much investment in this character now, the show can't have Lucifer easily defeated without making everybody look like huge buffoons.

Honestly, I think that ship sailed when they Lucifer out of the cage in the first place. 

[Diane]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Honestly, I think that ship sailed when they Lucifer out of the cage in the first place. 

No kidding!

[The Morning Star]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Honestly, I think that ship sailed when they Lucifer out of the cage in the first place. 

Well I'd argue it was Cas who made the decision and nobody has ever accused him of being bright.

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

Well I'd argue it was Cas who made the decision and nobody has ever accused him of being bright.

But Cas is only as smart as the writers allow him to be.  They choose to keep having Cas make one bad mistake after another.  He has no free will.

Having Crowley interfere with Rowena's spell to put Lucifer back in the Cage honestly made no sense.  Crowley would have been the first one to want Lucifer locked away for good.  He'd been humiliated by him and was made to look weak in front of the rest of the demons.  As long as Lucifer was around, some of them would never respect Crowley again.  Getting rid of Lucifer once and for all would have been his first priority, IMO.  And it could have worked with their BMOL plot, too, because it should have really made both Sam and Dean think twice about what the BMOL could offer with their fancy machines.  It would have made more sense for them to get sucked in for a bit.  

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, The Morning Star said:

Well I'd argue it was Cas who made the decision and nobody has ever accused him of being bright.

Sure, but the fact that anyone could let him out of the cage so easily and with no real consequences made them all look like idiots, if you ask me.

[The Morning Star]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But Cas is only as smart as the writers allow him to be.  They choose to keep having Cas make one bad mistake after another.  He has no free will.

Having Crowley interfere with Rowena's spell to put Lucifer back in the Cage honestly made no sense.  Crowley would have been the first one to want Lucifer locked away for good.  He'd been humiliated by him and was made to look weak in front of the rest of the demons.  As long as Lucifer was around, some of them would never respect Crowley again.  Getting rid of Lucifer once and for all would have been his first priority, IMO.  And it could have worked with their BMOL plot, too, because it should have really made both Sam and Dean think twice about what the BMOL could offer with their fancy machines.  It would have made more sense for them to get sucked in for a bit.  

The show has made one thing clear so far, the angel kind were made to follow orders, they are lost and inefficient when exposed to free will.

Cas is no exception to that and I don't like it but it is what it is.

As for Crowley, he didn't make the decision to keep Lucifer in his possession with his brain, he was deeply humiliated and wanted a revenge which is understandable considering he was half cured and regained some of his lost humanity

[Jonesy]

15 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

Well I'd argue it was Cas who made the decision and nobody has ever accused him of being bright.

But Dean and Sam after the fact endorsed the move and used Lucifer with Chuck to fight Amara.

[The Morning Star]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sure, but the fact that anyone could let him out of the cage so easily and with no real consequences made them all look like idiots, if you ask me.

Yeah that really did undermine the race in S4 for the seals, I like to think the race for the seals in S4 was a part of Chuck's original script, after all both sides were following it.

2 minutes ago, Jakes said:

But Dean and Sam after the fact endorsed the move and used Lucifer with Chuck to fight Amara.

I wouldn't call it endorsement, with Chuck's presence they just went with it.

[Jonesy]

2 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

Yeah that really did undermine the race in S4 for the seals, I like to think the race for the seals in S4 was a part of Chuck's original script, after all both sides were following it.

I wouldn't call it endorsement, with Chuck's presence they just went with it.

Yes after Chuck they thought Cas bringing Lucifer out was a good idea.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Jakes said:

Yes after Chuck they thought Cas bringing Lucifer out was a good idea.

I head-canon it as Dean not wanting to make his little brother and his other-brother feel even more responsible than they were for Lucifer escaping the cage. Cas for making the dumb decision, and Sam for facilitating them even being in the position to do it.

Edited June 16, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

From TV Line: Supernatural Spoilers
 

Quote

Question: I’m fully aware it’s only June, but that’s not going to stop me from asking for a little fall preview on Supernatural. —Sam
Ausiello: Last month’s Supernatural finale definitely set the stage for an explosive Season 13, but you might want to rewatch an earlier episode for some clues about what’s in store for the Winchesters & Co. As you may recall, in the producers’ preview for Season 12’s “Ladies Drink Free,” executive producer Robert Singer revealed that the installment “very subtly tees up something that we’re going to revisit next [season].” So of course, we asked EP Andrew Dabb to elaborate. “That’s something we’re probably more comfortable talking about around Comic-Con,” he responded. “We have some really interesting things in the works.”

This certainly hints at a Wayward Daughters spinoff -- or at least a small arc during S13.  They can't be going directly to spinoff -- but they MAY have a "B" plot that is focused on the Wayward Daughters to see if it has "legs".  So less of a single-episode backdoor pilot but more of a multi-episode approach towards establishing a second set of characters.  Just speculating.  Note, there's nothing NEW in this snippet except that they ARE going to revisit the topic at Comic Con.

Can't wait to see the Comic Con guest list.  

[Diane]

20 minutes ago, SueB said:

From TV Line: Supernatural Spoilers
 

This certainly hints at a Wayward Daughters spinoff -- or at least a small arc during S13.  They can't be going directly to spinoff -- but they MAY have a "B" plot that is focused on the Wayward Daughters to see if it has "legs".  So less of a single-episode backdoor pilot but more of a multi-episode approach towards establishing a second set of characters.  Just speculating.  Note, there's nothing NEW in this snippet except that they ARE going to revisit the topic at Comic Con.

Can't wait to see the Comic Con guest list.  

I may be in the minority, but I am not excited at all for Wayward Daughters in a spinoff or as a major season arc. 

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, Diane said:

I may be in the minority, but I am not excited at all for Wayward Daughters in a spinoff or as a major season arc. 

I'm not either, but it's a good way to give us even less Sam and Dean.  I don't know why it bothers me so much when Dabb talks about the show.  I know it's his job to hype it up, but so far, nothing he's ever said I'm going to love have I even liked, so he annoys me.

[ZennyKenny]

TBH I wish that we weren't her ehaving to discuss Lucifer because we're pretty much sure that he's going to come back. I think my above comments represent me being at the bargaining stage of grief.

[companionenvy]

56 minutes ago, SueB said:

This certainly hints at a Wayward Daughters spinoff -- or at least a small arc during S13.  They can't be going directly to spinoff -- but they MAY have a "B" plot that is focused on the Wayward Daughters to see if it has "legs".  So less of a single-episode backdoor pilot but more of a multi-episode approach towards establishing a second set of characters.  Just speculating.  Note, there's nothing NEW in this snippet except that they ARE going to revisit the topic at Comic Con.

Can't wait to see the Comic Con guest list.  

You're probably right, SueB, but I had a different thought. Ladies Drink Free featured the idea of curing monsters, at least under certain conditions. What if that was the "subtle hint" they followed up on? Not that it is a totally new idea -- we've seen a vamp cure and a demon cure before -- but neither is the possibility of Wayward Daughters. In any case, Sam and Dean becoming more proactive about trying to find ways of curing or controlling certain monsters might fit with Dabb's hint. 

[Diane]

6 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

You're probably right, SueB, but I had a different thought. Ladies Drink Free featured the idea of curing monsters, at least under certain conditions. What if that was the "subtle hint" they followed up on? Not that it is a totally new idea -- we've seen a vamp cure and a demon cure before -- but neither is the possibility of Wayward Daughters. In any case, Sam and Dean becoming more proactive about trying to find ways of curing or controlling certain monsters might fit with Dabb's hint. 

Now that I could get behind, more of saving people.

[ahrtee]

35 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

You're probably right, SueB, but I had a different thought. Ladies Drink Free featured the idea of curing monsters, at least under certain conditions. What if that was the "subtle hint" they followed up on? Not that it is a totally new idea -- we've seen a vamp cure and a demon cure before -- but neither is the possibility of Wayward Daughters. In any case, Sam and Dean becoming more proactive about trying to find ways of curing or controlling certain monsters might fit with Dabb's hint. 

I just read the transcript, and a few things jumped out at me:

There really isn't a "wayward daughters" setup there.  There might be a Claire hunting alone one, but I don't think that's really what anyone wants.  They could, of course, have Claire hook up with other (young, pretty) hunters, but I don't really see Jody or Donna fitting in there (except as guest support).

I like the idea of curing monsters, but don't think TPTB think that way--it's not exciting enough, and they tend to value action over logical/well written stories.  

One thing I did notice:  the werewolf mentioning that he and his pack were happy until the hunters came with their fancy new weapons and wiped them out.  And now they're trying to regroup and rebuild their packs/nests/whatever (and, I'm pretty sure, declaring war on hunters, without making a distinction between the BMoL and others). So my guess would be that's where the next season is heading:  "The Monsters Strike Back" or something similar.  Not sure if I'm on board with that or not, but it's better than Spawn.  

[catrox14]

I'm not sure it's a Wayward Daughters thing per se. I could see it happening but I think it's going to tie back in Sam being the one that wanted to use the cure and he got the idea from reading a BMOL lore book. I think this will be Sam using data and tech scavenged from the raid on the BMOL and using it to rebuild the AMOL.

[MysteryGuest]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not sure it's a Wayward Daughters thing per se. I could see it happening but I think it's going to tie back in Sam being the one that wanted to use the cure and he got the idea from reading a BMOL lore book. I think this will be Sam using data and tech scavenged from the raid on the BMOL and using it to rebuild the AMOL.

Well, hopefully it will be Sam and Dean rebuilding the AMOL.  Without making this a Sam vs. Dean thing, I'd like Dean to find his brain again next season.  It didn't appear that they took enough time to wander through their intel library before blowing the place to smithereens, however.  Maybe Sam kept the book that Mick gave him?  Honestly, they have a world of information at their fingertips in the Bunker that they've barely scratched the surface of.  Inviting other hunters to share in that would be a smart thing to do.  Especially if the monsters do come looking for a little payback.  

That's really what I'm hoping for next season.  More joint hunts, including more Jody and Donna, and more smart monsters.  The problem is we still have Jack and Lucifer to contend with, and saving Mary.  I'm fine with saving Mary, but I wish they could send Jack and Lucifer off on a father/son bonding tour...of Mars.

[ZennyKenny]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

That's really what I'm hoping for next season.  More joint hunts, including more Jody and Donna, and more smart monsters.  The problem is we still have Jack and Lucifer to contend with, and saving Mary.  I'm fine with saving Mary, but I wish they could send Jack and Lucifer off on a father/son bonding tour...of Mars.

Heck that's what I wished would have happened this last season, instead of it being all about the BMoL. That's the problem with HAVING to have a cliffhanger. Didn't one of the SPN people basically admit that they pull something out of their ass for the season finale cliffhanger and then try to figure out what to do with it later? IMO It makes it harder to have that fresh, back-to-basics start in the new season when you are perpetually tied to the ending of the last season.

But yeah, I would LOVE for them to go back to square one. They always SAY they are going back to their roots... maybe in their minds, they are? Maybe we mean two different things when we say "roots"?

[rue721]

13 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think they can make Lucifer scary, nor do I think Lucifer--the actual character--was ever scary on this show.

When Sam seemed terrified of Lucifer, I thought Lucifer was pretty scary. Same thing for the YED. Dean seemed terrified of him, even after the YED was dead -- like when Dean had visions of him in the S6 premier (Exile on Main Street?). If Dean was that scared, then sure, I was sufficiently scared!

Plus, I kind of loved the YED anyway. His plans were always just thiiiiis side of irrational, unpredictable. Plus, I liked the actor. Just everything about that character was interesting IMO.

I even liked that that asshole, instead of just killing John, lured him deeper and deeper into Crazytown and then finally, as his coup de grace, bought his soul. Wtf man, that's a real villain.

4 hours ago, Diane said:

I may be in the minority, but I am not excited at all for Wayward Daughters in a spinoff or as a major season arc. 

Yeah, I just don't care at all.

And, besides everything else, law enforcement moonlighting as vigilantes continues to creep me out.

[MysteryGuest]

9 hours ago, rue721 said:

Plus, I kind of loved the YED anyway. His plans were always just thiiiiis side of irrational, unpredictable. Plus, I liked the actor. Just everything about that character was interesting IMO.

I even liked that that asshole, instead of just killing John, lured him deeper and deeper into Crazytown and then finally, as his coup de grace, bought his soul. Wtf man, that's a real villain.

The difference for me is that the YED was only in a handful of episodes over the course of the series.  So there's still a mystique about him, and he still evokes a feeling of fear when the characters talk about him even now.  With Lucifer, they've crammed him down our throats, and accentuated his whiny teenager persona so much, that he's not frightening at all, he's just annoying and boring.  He had much more impact when he was locked in the Cage, and they just referred to him.  There was always that possibility that he might get back out, and that was enough to keep him as an evil presence.  

[ILoveReading]

It's probably a WayWard Daughters spinoff.  Kim and Brianna are both hinting at it. 

The only other possibility, I can really think of is that small snippet where Dean imitated Yogi Bear.  Maybe it was teasing Sam and Dean becoming cartoons

[Pondlass1]

14 hours ago, ahrtee said:

like the idea of curing monsters, but don't think TPTB think that way--it's not exciting enough, and they tend to value action over logical/well written stories.  

Ain't that the truth!!

But what if a monster doesn't deserve to be killed? What if a monster isn't responsible for his/her actions?  What if the monster's actions are justified, or at the very least excusable? High functioning monsters are way more intriguing anyways and always present more  interesting dilemmas for Sam and Dean.  Do you kill a monster because it's a monster?  

They've dabbled with this dilemma quite a bit (Dean killing Amy, Benny, etc.).  A  monster cure  could be interesting. Did it work?  Can a monster be cured?  It could possibly open another story arc avenue for writers.  

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It seems like the soul is tied with the heart more than the brain in the SPN verse

It's so odd, tho.  Your soul is your conscience surely?  We are dangerous without a conscience and would have wiped ourselves out back in cave man times.  Our conscience is what separates us and it's located in the  thinking brain. The heart is just a pump.    The stomach (where the black smoke goes after entering the mouth and where they burrow for souls) is a food processing muscle.  

Anyway, I've strayed off topic and will shut up, Dr. Phil.

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

It's so odd, tho.  Your soul is your conscience surely?  We are dangerous without a conscience and would have wiped ourselves out back in cave man times.  Our conscience is what separates us and it's located in the  thinking brain. The heart is just a pump.    The stomach (where the black smoke goes after entering the mouth and where they burrow for souls) is a food processing muscle.  

SPN has made a soul into a conscience, but it's more than that or you could say anyone who does a bad deed with deliberation--whether robbing, lying or killing--doesn't have a soul.  

About the location:  we don't know where they're actually "burrowing for souls."  Current thinking says that there's a "second brain" in the guts (hence the terms gut feelings, gut/visceral reactions), which is less about rational thinking and more about emotional reactions, which to me correlates more with the "conscience" part of the soul.  Personally, I think "soul" is more a part of the person's life essence and not tied in to thinking, or that would (also) mean that anyone not capable of rational thought (and that would include those with brain injuries or illnesses like Alzheimer's) have lost their soul, (and having watched my mom through years of dementia) I know that's not true).  

I was going to reply to this yesterday but realized it was OT then, but now that's it's brought up again...we can move this elsewhere if anyone wants to continue.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

The difference for me is that the YED was only in a handful of episodes over the course of the series.  So there's still a mystique about him, and he still evokes a feeling of fear when the characters talk about him even now.  With Lucifer, they've crammed him down our throats, and accentuated his whiny teenager persona so much, that he's not frightening at all, he's just annoying and boring.  He had much more impact when he was locked in the Cage, and they just referred to him.  There was always that possibility that he might get back out, and that was enough to keep him as an evil presence.  

Agree on all of this. And with YED you knew, even when you didn't 'know', that there was a purpose to his evil deeds. A goal, reasons. I've never once even been left with the impression that Lucifer wants to rule Hell, never mind any other end game. It's just random acts of violence for his own amusement, which he occasionally tries to justify with whiny daddy issues. He's boring to the nth degree and I cannot fathom why Dabb/Singer are so committed to the character. I don't know a single person who is interested in his story any more, except the usual suspects who continually blow smoke up their asses on social media.

[MysteryGuest]

46 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I've never once even been left with the impression that Lucifer wants to rule Hell, never mind any other end game. It's just random acts of violence for his own amusement, which he occasionally tries to justify with whiny daddy issues.

It would actually make more sense for Lucifer to try to take over Heaven.  His beef is with his father, so why not do what he can to turn God's angels against him?  Not that I want this to happen, but you're right, he has absolutely no purpose.  Even the daddy issues don't make sense anymore after God/Chuck came back.  It at least appeared that they'd come to an understanding.  Why bother to even go there if it was going to be meaningless?

Edited June 17, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Pondlass1]

33 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

left with the impression that Lucifer wants to rule Hell, never mind any other end game

Didn't Dargon (or whatever) say they wanted to destroy earth and everything else?  What's left to rule?   What we want is a complex, menacing big bad.   But Dabb seems committed for some damn reason. Lucifer is way more powerful than Sam and Dean - it's going to be the same ol' thing, why doesn't he just kill them?  Maybe he'll discover what it feels like to experience love (for Jack) and be all redeemed and stuff.  Barf!

[catrox14]

I think Singer/Dabb have a hard-on for Mark Pellegrino even more than the character of Lucifer per se. IMO, if it was solely about Lucifer, the character, they could have simply re-cast the role permanently. Instead they get MP for 3 episodes, then sacrifice Castiel's character progression to have Misha play Lucifer for nearly half of s11 (and IMO he did a good job capturing the Hallucination!Lucifer and was especially effective in The Vessel). In S12 they bring in Rick Springfield and the POTUS actor until Mark P. was available, and subsequently, he was given series regular status at some point in s12. 

IMO, it was out of character for Crowley to seek petty vengeance on Lucifer just because Lucifer humiliated him in Hell. He didn't even seek vengeance on demon!Dean when he challenged Crowley and put him on his ass, literally. Instead of figuring out a way to kill Dean, he turned him over to Sam and made demon!Dean's status Sam's problem. Crowley was generally many steps ahead of everyone else except when it came to the Winchesters, especially Dean who is unpredictable. Crowley in s12 would have installed  fail safe after fail safe to make sure that his superspecial, reconstituted Nicksuit which was engineered from the specs of the Cage down to the molecules, worked. Yet somehow Lucifer reversed the polarity? If that was the case, how did the Cage hold him for thousands of years? 

Mark P is a great actor so I get why they want him but not at the expense of Castiel and Crowley's respective character progressions. So to me for s13, I think maybe they trapped Nickifer in the AU because they couldn't secure series regular status but it keeps MP's Lucifer on ice for a guest actor and no one else will play Lucifer because Singer/Dabb seem to worship Mark Pellegrino.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

It would actually make more sense for Lucifer to try to take over Heaven.  His beef is with his father, so why not do what he can to turn God's angels against him?  Not that I want this to happen, but you're right, he has absolutely no purpose.  Even the daddy issues don't make sense anymore after God/Chuck came back.  It at least appeared that they'd come to an understanding.  Why bother to even go there if it was going to be meaningless?

That still could be on the table for Lucifer with Sproutifer. Maybe he's pissed about being locked in the AU because he can't groom Sproutifer to be take over Heaven.

I still have a hope that maybe Michael might be a thing again, but the problem is that I don't want anyone else to portray Michael other than Jensen or Matt Cohen. I don't understand the retcons of Michael no longer being first born twice. Worst case is a horrible way to completely write Michael out of the story.

SWAG SPECS:

--Michael's been out of the Cage since the Darkness was released and he went into hiding but Lucifer has been lying about his status. I mean the only person who has talked about Michael is Lucifer and he has reason to lie to embolden himself more.

--I've been thinking that with Crowley dead  who is running Hell? I would be okay with Michael!Adam having ONE episode to establish that he was released from his imprisonment by someone in Hell, maybe even Crowley himself, and they made a deal that Michael will keep Hell in check and they'll put Lucifer back in the Cage. 

--Maybe Ghuck decided he had enough of Lucifer's shenanigans with Sproutifer's birth so he comes back from vacation, heals Michael, sends Adam to Heaven and by some shenanigans, we get Matt Cohen!Michael OR

My pet SWAG SPEC for s13 through the end of the series if that is coming soon:

There is a Matt Cohen!Michael in the AU. He communicates with Dean somehow and tells Dean that he still is Michael's OTV in ALL the universes, and that a Michael!Dean Sword is the only way to kill Lucifer in the AU.  Dean agrees, he kills Lucifer really most sincerely dead. Michael fulfills his bargain and because he's been in Dean, he gets where Dean is coming from and he decides to rebuild the AU!Earth for humanity. Then he comes back to SPN!Earth and fulfills the bargain he made with Crowley to close the Gates of Hell.  He orders all the angels back to Heaven where they will resume their role as protectors of humanity but not be on Earth unless needed by humans, and then Castiel makes a choice to stay on Earth as a human.