Spoilers With Speculation

[Jonesy]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is what I've been wondering.  Show does love its parallels, and I can see them mirroring s7 where Cas, Sam and Mary end up left behind in the mystery land while Dean get out and he's all alone. 

After Cas says "you" we see a shot of Sam and Dean.  I thought that was their reaction to seeing Bobby whoever the mystery man is

Yeah, I saw that but I don't think that was the exact same scene...there was a fast cut there.  Still possible it could be but can't tell by how they edited that.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Huh, indeed. Maybe a casual viewer who DGAF about the Winchesters-proper could think so, otherwise... huh to the nth.  I also heard of another article (or is it this one) where Dabb was saying that this finale would be the 'most meta' one they've ever done. Seriously. WTF? Maybe they actually let a fangirl write it instead of just dictate it? /sarcasm

I saw that about it being the most 'Meta' finale.

So I thought what could they do to make the most meta thing ever. I don't think it will be canon Destiel unless they do it and kill off Cas. 

What about Ruby 2.0 showing up and Danneel plays another demon that Ruby knew in the other world or that Danneel shows up  as the personified Impala? That would be pretty damn meta.

Here's some wild ass spec:

It's The French Mistake 2.0 and it's Misha that Cas sees and he's there with Genevieve Padalecki and Daneel Ackles to save them all. Honestly at this point, I wouldn't put it past them.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I Here's some wild ass spec:

It's The French Mistake 2.0 and it's Misha that Cas sees and he's there with Genevieve Padalecki and Daneel Ackles to save them all. Honestly at this point, I wouldn't put it past them.

Oh God, could you imagine that? Hahaha the Js having to act against their wives who've are playing the wives of their alternative selves -dies- 

[Jonesy]

Most meta finale ever and twists we never saw before...Hmmm.  Does it have to do with the strange realm they end up in?  Eric Kripke as the mystery man...lol.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Jakes

[Goldmoon]

I typed the snippet (in full) about the "meta" comment and posted it in the media thread.  It's from Entertainment Weekly, May 19th issue.  The author of the paragraph says, "Like some of the best episodes before it, this one will get a little heady."  What does she mean by "heady"?  Is part of this in someone's head, or is she merely referring to Dean going into Mom's consciousness?

Edited May 15, 2017 by Goldmoon

[gonzosgirrl]

32 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

I typed the snippet (in full) about the "meta" comment and posted it in the media thread.  It's from Entertainment Weekly, May 19th issue.  The author of the paragraph says, "Like some of the best episodes before it, this one will get a little heady."  What does she mean by "heady"?  Is part of this in someone's head, or is she merely referring to Dean going into Mom's consciousness?

I'd pay money for the 'Surprise, muthfuckas!' text from Luci, but I would sell my soul to Crowley for this whole season to have been a fever dream of Dean's, beginning from the moment Chuck zapped the soul-bomb out of his chest.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Yet the thing I find still keep coming back to is what appears to be Dean's severely injured, possibly broken leg. If it's not Dean's leg then it's someone who's got relatively slender calves and bowlegs wearing boots like Dean and has access to the bunker. Presuming that is Dean,  he doesn't appear to have that injury with him, Sam and Lady NeedsHerHeadLoppedOffASAP stuff, nor with just him and her doing the mind trip thing, nor with him, Sam and Mary over the table doing whatever spell they are doing. And it doesn't look like an injury he can just bounce back from without Cas or another angel healing him.

I still wonder if the end of the previous episode--everything in the bunker--will turn out to be some sort of drug/spell induced hallucination. Maybe a lot of what's in the promo is a dream scape of sorts?

[Aeryn13]

Every now and then I get trying to give a little hint without spoiling too much but I seriously wish everyone would stop trying to be oh-so-clever with puns.

"We`ll take exploring NEW WORLDS really seriously."

"The Finale will be HEADY."

"The Finale will ruffle some FEATHERS."

I can imagine the "haha, get it? at the end of each of those". Yes we get it, Dean will visit Mary`s head, they will all be transported to some heretofore unseen realm and something drastic will happen to Cas.  

[Jonesy]

14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Every now and then I get trying to give a little hint without spoiling too much but I seriously wish everyone would stop trying to be oh-so-clever with puns.

"We`ll take exploring NEW WORLDS really seriously."

"The Finale will be HEADY."

"The Finale will ruffle some FEATHERS."

I can imagine the "haha, get it? at the end of each of those". Yes we get it, Dean will visit Mary`s head, they will all be transported to some heretofore unseen realm and something drastic will happen to Cas.  

Though I think some of this is incidental and fans with too much imagination reading into it.

[CluelessDrifter]

38 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Every now and then I get trying to give a little hint without spoiling too much but I seriously wish everyone would stop trying to be oh-so-clever with puns.

"We`ll take exploring NEW WORLDS really seriously."

"The Finale will be HEADY."

"The Finale will ruffle some FEATHERS."

I can imagine the "haha, get it? at the end of each of those". Yes we get it, Dean will visit Mary`s head, they will all be transported to some heretofore unseen realm and something drastic will happen to Cas.  

In Ruth's interview, I didn't get the impression she was being coy.  They asked her if she could say anything about what happened to Crowley, and she said she was stuck in the airport when the episode aired, so she didn't know which one it was.  All she knew was what had come across her Twitter feed, and then she tried finding the right words to say that basically if people were mad about the last episode, it wasn't over yet.  In no way did I get the impression that she was talking about Cas when she said 'ruffle some feathers.'  I think she was very aware that people were angry about Eileen, didn't want to demean that, and struggled to find the right words to say that people were probably going to be mad about what's coming, or that was my impression.

But don't take my word for it.  Judge for yourself.  It's about half way through if that's all you want to see, I think around the 1:20 mark.

Having said that, Misha did also say that we were going to see Cas's wings in this next episode, so maybe she was being coy about that.  Who knows? 

Edited May 15, 2017 by CluelessDrifter
added a link

[Jonesy]

13 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

In Ruth's interview, I didn't get the impression she was being coy.  They asked her if she could say anything about what happened to Crowley, and she said she was stuck in the airport when the episode aired, so she didn't know which one it was.  All she knew was what had come across her Twitter feed, and then she tried finding the right words to say that basically if people were mad about the last episode, it wasn't over yet.  In no way did I get the impression that she was talking about Cas when she said 'ruffle some feathers.'  I think she was very aware that people were angry about Eileen, didn't want to demean that, and struggled to find the right words to say that people were probably going to be mad about what's coming, or that was my impression.

But don't take my word for it.  Judge for yourself.  It's about half way through if that's all you want to see, I think around the 1:20 mark.

 

Having said that, Misha did also say that we were going to see Cas's wings in this next episode, so maybe she was being coy about that.  Who knows? 

Yes I thought the same you did--read zero coyness to it.  Speaking of what Misha said--I heard elsewhere that we may see Wings(plural).  So who knows what that means exactly.  I would love for the angels to somehow get their wings back.

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Though I think some of this is incidental and fans with too much imagination reading into it.

Jensen said the s9 finale would be a real eye opener. Ask Ausiello has a history of being clever with words to hint at spoilers,Jared, Misha and Mark all say hinty things trying to be clever so it's not as though fandom just pulls these specs out our collective ass.

[Jonesy]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Jensen said the s9 finale would be a real eye opener. Ask Ausiello has a history of being clever with words to hint at spoilers,Jared, Misha and Mark all say hinty things trying to be clever so it's not as though fandom just pulls these specs out our collective ass.

Didn't say all of it--just some of it.  For example what Ruth said--I saw that and doesn't read to me at all that she was hinting there.  At best one could guess that but it is far from clear.

[DittyDotDot]

35 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

In Ruth's interview, I didn't get the impression she was being coy.

Yeah, I didn't get any coyness either but what's most interesting about her comments to me is, she's not been confirmed for either episode 22 or 23, but she's clearly aware of what goes down in the finale. So, does that mean she just read a script, another cast member told her, or that she is indeed in the episodes coming up?

I hope the latter myself.

[Mick Lady]

On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 0:05 PM, ahrtee said:

   (b) My theory is that Rowena was in the rat that (yes, I do believe) Crowley went into.  The rat came out in a room filled with people and showed itself deliberately to Crowley (not normal rat behavior), even before following his body out.  It might just be either bad writing (a sledgehammer hint to the audience)  but I think it might have been Rowena, either in person or just communicating through it, telling Crowley to "smokelessly" smoke in  (didn't she use a bird or something to follow Crowley and spy for her before?)  In any event, I'm guessing that Luci just killed two empty vessels.  

I hope this is right! I love Rowena and Crowley, and don't want to lose them!

[Jonesy]

Interesting tidbit from Tree Topper spoiler site--the WRITERS start back to work today for season 13. 

[Idahoforspn]

8 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Interesting tidbit from Tree Topper spoiler site--the WRITERS start back to work today for season 13. 

Oh man. I hope Pedowitz is saying something. Or at least Jensen decides to exert some influence. I can't take another season like this and I doubt Dabb or Singer have the judgement to adjust course.

[CluelessDrifter]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

she's not been confirmed for either episode 22 or 23, but she's clearly aware of what goes down in the finale. So, does that mean she just read a script, another cast member told her, or that she is indeed in the episodes coming up?

I wondered the same thing!

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I hope the latter myself.

This is where we differ.  I can't think of any good reason for why they would keep her appearance in the finale a secret.  I don't want Rowena anywhere near the finale if they're just going to kill her, and it doesn't look good for her in that 2 in 1 promo.  

[Mick Lady]

3 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

True, but it does suggest that proximity doesn't necessarily mean that the BMoL are going to get involved outside their own country.  I also tend to think that there's every possibility that the BMoL were compromised.  Who knows how long Hess has really been alive?  She looks exactly the same as she did in that flashback to when Mick was a kid.  One of the most infamous ranking members of the Nazi regime was Rudolph Hess, who flew to Scotland to try and broker peace before being arrested, held, and sent back to Germany for the Nuremberg trials.  He was also a real life member of the Thule society. 

They brought Hitler in earlier this season.  Maybe they'll tie the BMoL in with the Thule through Hess, or maybe it's just a nod to the Nazis, so we'll associate the BMoL with them.  Either way, I think they were compromised, and that's why she didn't go there.  Whether or not they go anywhere with it, I don't know.  I think they might just drop the BMoL even though we still have those pesky 'Old Men' who are behind everything to consider.  However, there is a set up there for it if they choose to take it.

That is one good post! Never thought of the "Hess" referral!

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

This is where we differ.  I can't think of any good reason for why they would keep her appearance in the finale a secret.  I don't want Rowena anywhere near the finale if they're just going to kill her, and it doesn't look good for her in that 2 in 1 promo.  

Oh God, I don't want them to kill her!!! I just think she adds some fun to the show when she's on screen and Lord knows we could use a healthy dose of fun in this show lately.

However, it could be they kept her a secret because they thought we'd believe that Crowley was dead and didn't want to spoil that?

Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. ;)

[catrox14]

Huh.i wonder if this means SPN will come back to the schedule before October. They don't normally get back to writing this early

[Aeryn13]

I don`t think they will bring it back too early, the show is too expensive to blow off in the summer and what would be the point of airing it way before their other fall line-up? Unless everything comes back earlier than normal. Also, I don`t see J2 giving up their hiatus which means shooting will probably start at the usual time. No idea why they would come back to writing early. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think they will bring it back too early, the show is too expensive to blow off in the summer and what would be the point of airing it way before their other fall line-up? Unless everything comes back earlier than normal. Also, I don`t see J2 giving up their hiatus which means shooting will probably start at the usual time. No idea why they would come back to writing early. 

Jensen is directing in 13 so maybe this is trying to accommodate him to shoot his episode first.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Huh.i wonder if this means SPN will come back to the schedule before October. They don't normally get back to writing this early

Is it really that early? I mean, they usually are back in the room by the end of May. It seems like they went back to work last year during Jus In Bello which seemed to be about the same time as the finale aired, as I recall.

[Jonesy]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think they will bring it back too early, the show is too expensive to blow off in the summer and what would be the point of airing it way before their other fall line-up? Unless everything comes back earlier than normal. Also, I don`t see J2 giving up their hiatus which means shooting will probably start at the usual time. No idea why they would come back to writing early. 

Well maybe they're doing xtra work to correct the course some!

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Huh.i wonder if this means SPN will come back to the schedule before October. They don't normally get back to writing this early

I think this is actually the normal time :) . As far as I know it's generally a case of the writers return to work in May, the actors returning to film late July, and the show itself starts to air in October. I believe they're usually filming episode 9 or 10 when the show starts to air. That is why when fans react negatively to a storyline it often isn't dropped, or at least reduced, until after mid season, as it's already too late to change the focus of the first nine or ten episodes of the season. 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

I thought they went back in June. disregard my comments.

[CluelessDrifter]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh God, I don't want them to kill her!!! I just think she adds some fun to the show when she's on screen and Lord knows we could use a healthy dose of fun in this show lately.

However, it could be they kept her a secret because they thought we'd believe that Crowley was dead and didn't want to spoil that?

Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. ;)

I love Rowena.  I'd be very upset if they kill her off.

[MysteryGuest]

If the show seriously decides to do something to Cas that is final, and not just a cliffhanger for next season, how do they expect to ride out the backlash from that?  They had a bit of a mutiny on their hands when they killed off Charlie, and she was nowhere near as beloved as Cas is.  If it's Misha's decision to leave, then he's going to have to come out and say that as soon as the episode is over, or people are going to go crazy...and not in a good way.  

[Wayward Son]

26 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

If the show seriously decides to do something to Cas that is final, and not just a cliffhanger for next season, how do they expect to ride out the backlash from that?  They had a bit of a mutiny on their hands when they killed off Charlie, and she was nowhere near as beloved as Cas is.  If it's Misha's decision to leave, then he's going to have to come out and say that as soon as the episode is over, or people are going to go crazy...and not in a good way.  

I actually think it'll be interesting to see exactly what happens when Castiel leaves the show. There's a lot of debate within fandom in regards to how much of an impact he has on the shows ratings. There are some who feel his popularity in fandom indicates his presence plays a role in the ratings and they'd drop without him around. Others feel the opposite and think he makes no difference whatsoever. I think the extremists who will only watch episodes featuring Castiel are a small minority as are the extremists who refuse to live watch his eps. In my experience the majority of Cas centric fans will watch all episodes in order to remain fully engaged with the show. That is why some Cas episodes will score high ratings (Stuck in the Middle with You), while others will get crap ratings (Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell) and viceversa. It is for this reason I feel we will only truly learn the impact Cas centric fans have on the ratings, if any, when he departs from the show and those Cas leaning fans have nothing left to watch for. 

I should add the disclaimer that as a Cas fan his departure from the show isn't a deal breaker for me. If the departure was done in a respectful manner that was true to Cas' character and honoured the relationships he formed throughout his time on the show I'd continue watching. The only thing that would drive me away is if they were to do something hateful such as turning him evil and having the brothers kill him, which incidentally was the original plan for season 6.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Wayward Son

[companionenvy]

I totally agree, Wayward Son. I like Cas a lot, but I think the show has struggled to integrate him, and honestly, this season has convinced me that I like the show better when the boys are dealing with problems on a somewhat more human scale (with the caveat that, as I said earlier today, they need to address the crappy puppet show prison-camp that is heaven first). The heaven and hell stuff launched the show to a new level when it was introduced, but at this point it has gotten old and the show is clearly out of ideas. 

So, in theory, I'd be over the moon if we got a really good Cas plot or episode. But as it is, my preference would be for the character to get a great exit - ideally one that, rather than killing him, left the door open for periodic returns, but even a death would be OK if it were a good one. Cas has lived a long time, and I think he cares a lot more about doing some good than living much longer. It would be sad, and it would hurt the Winchesters (especially Dean) a lot, but it wouldn't be the utter waste that was Charlie's death -- or Eileen's.  My problem is with gratuitous death, not death in itself.

That being said, my sense is that the show isn't going that route, since Cas seems to be getting an end of season reprieve. Which makes me nervous, because it sounds like SOMEONE dies, and I really don't want another senselessly tragic death.

[catrox14]

I'm TFW with obvious leanings for Dean but if they kill off Cas, IMO the show will be poorer for it. If it's because Misha wants to leave for whatever reasons, I'll accept it grudgingly. But regardless of whether Misha leaves of his own accord or the write him out for story reasons, I don't want him to die as a villainous character. Yeah, he's screwed up a lot as have Sam and Dean. IMO, Misha and Cas deserve a heroic exit if it comes to that. 

[Wayward Son]

33 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I totally agree, Wayward Son. I like Cas a lot, but I think the show has struggled to integrate him, and honestly, this season has convinced me that I like the show better when the boys are dealing with problems on a somewhat more human scale (with the caveat that, as I said earlier today, they need to address the crappy puppet show prison-camp that is heaven first). The heaven and hell stuff launched the show to a new level when it was introduced, but at this point it has gotten old and the show is clearly out of ideas. 

So, in theory, I'd be over the moon if we got a really good Cas plot or episode. But as it is, my preference would be for the character to get a great exit - ideally one that, rather than killing him, left the door open for periodic returns, but even a death would be OK if it were a good one. Cas has lived a long time, and I think he cares a lot more about doing some good than living much longer. It would be sad, and it would hurt the Winchesters (especially Dean) a lot, but it wouldn't be the utter waste that was Charlie's death -- or Eileen's.  My problem is with gratuitous death, not death in itself.

That being said, my sense is that the show isn't going that route, since Cas seems to be getting an end of season reprieve. Which makes me nervous, because it sounds like SOMEONE dies, and I really don't want another senselessly tragic death.

I actually agree that the heaven and hell stuff has been done to death and there is little to explore there. However, in my opinion, a good team of writers with a genuine interest in exploring the character of Castiel and allowing him to develop could easily keep him around while removing the other links to that storyline. If they wanted to keep Crowley around too then it'd be harder, due to his position as the King of hell, but again I'm sure a new direction could be found for him too. 

In regards to Castiel, season 9 is my favourite post Kripke season and the Angel spent half of it as a mortal. Although there were faults in the writing in general we got to see some major character growth and a change in perspective as a result of his time as a human. So the potential for a Castiel free of the Angel and demon storyline is definitely there. 

My personal ideal storyline would involve them making him human permanately. The writers are always bemoaning now hard he can write for due to his power levels so get rid of them. Id love to see him establish friendships with humans outside of the brother. Maybe a hunter, or two, who could show him the ropes on how to hunt as a human, in a way the brothers can't because of their general involvement in the big leagues. If not hunters maybe some sort of human in the know who gives aid to hunters in a different way.

Such an approach would have multiple advantages in my opinion; 1) It widens the recurring cast and gives new characters for Sam and Dean to interact with too. 2) If the show wants to give Cas / Misha his own storylines to give J2 time off then he'd have more compelling side characters to interact with. Most of the Angels of recent season have been rather dull and generic, but they've maintained the ability to introduce interesting humans such as the Banes family. More compelling characters who interact frequently witn Cas could even work better for those who dislike Cas. They may not enjoy Cas, but they could enjoy the others instead. 

The problem is we don't have a team of writers who are genuinely interested in Castiel. We have a set of writers who will occasionally give us some development to appease the fans (see early 12). However, ultimately after a few months they inevitably get bored and decide to go down the tried and tested "lets make Cas evil / possessed / not himself" (see LuciferCas last season or the episode The Future this year). That is why as of 12x19 I want him written off. Dabb!Gamble has no true interest in him and he is  eager to find ways of writing Cas out or around but not himself. 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Wayward Son

[MysteryGuest]

I'm definitely a proponent for less Heaven and Hell storylines.  I love Crowley and Cas, but they've never really been able to make either place very interesting.  Their depiction of angels and demons is almost identical.  They're always stupid, whiny, obnoxious characters, and just not fun to watch.  I think Hell was kind of fun when Abandon was around.  At least Crowley had to be smart to get rid of her.  And it gave us the whole MOC storyline, so they got quite a bit out of that.  But Lucifer's 15 minutes were up about 6 years ago, and he needs to go away.  

I thought with the introduction of the BMOL, they were going to move away from the Angel/Demon stuff, but Lucifer has been a huge part of this season, so obviously I was wrong.  Sadly, for me, this will always be the season that was pretty much ruined by Lucifer.  I just can't watch him anymore.

[auntvi]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Sadly, for me, this will always be the season that was pretty much ruined by Lucifer.  I just can't watch him anymore.

That I could deal with - there's always FF - but if he carries over to next season, blech!

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm definitely a proponent for less Heaven and Hell storylines.  I love Crowley and Cas, but they've never really been able to make either place very interesting.  Their depiction of angels and demons is almost identical.  They're always stupid, whiny, obnoxious characters, and just not fun to watch.  I think Hell was kind of fun when Abandon was around.  At least Crowley had to be smart to get rid of her.  And it gave us the whole MOC storyline, so they got quite a bit out of that.  But Lucifer's 15 minutes were up about 6 years ago, and he needs to go away.  

I thought with the introduction of the BMOL, they were going to move away from the Angel/Demon stuff, but Lucifer has been a huge part of this season, so obviously I was wrong.  Sadly, for me, this will always be the season that was pretty much ruined by Lucifer.  I just can't watch him anymore.

I've said it before, probably too many times, but for me it was intended to be: 

- The British Man of Letters saga starring Sam and Dean with the occasional appearance from Cas and Crowley. The main point of this saga being an opportunity to explore Mary Winchester and more importantly her relationship with her sons. 

- The Lucifer and Crowley saga starring Castiel and Crowley with appearances from Sam and Dean. This is reflected in the fact it's generally those two have been involved with it i.e. they were the ones tracking him at the start of the season, Crowley had Lucifer and Cas now has the nephilim. Sam and Dean seem secondary in this storyline and its there as something for M3 to do while the Js enjoy some time off. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

47 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I like Cas a lot, but I think the show has struggled to integrate him, and honestly, this season has convinced me that I like the show better when the boys are dealing with problems on a somewhat more human scale

I agree. Even though I like the character I think he is done story wise. I think that if the writers weren't so afraid of the backlash they would have killed him off sooner. 

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

If the show seriously decides to do something to Cas that is final, and not just a cliffhanger for next season, how do they expect to ride out the backlash from that?

There will be one, but there won't be any long term damage IMO. Cas's presence / absence has never made any measurable difference to the ratings, so I don't think he is anything like as big a draw to the show with the general viewing public as he is with the online Cas/Destiel fandoms. 

If he does leave I would like to see more of Jody and for Bobby to come back.  

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

- The Lucifer and Crowley saga starring Castiel and Crowley with appearances from Sam and Dean. This is reflected in the fact it's generally those two have been involved with it i.e. they were the ones tracking him at the start of the season, Crowley had Lucifer and Cas now has the nephilim. Sam and Dean seem secondary in this storyline and its there as something for M3 to do while the Js enjoy some time off. 

I don't disagree with this at all, but they could have done a much better job of keeping Cas and Crowley relevant.  Lucifer didn't need to even be a part of the picture.  Heaven and Hell have been in complete states of chaos for quite a while now.  They could have shown Crowley getting some of his mojo back and make Hell actually feel like Hell.  They could have ramped up on the demon deals, or anything else that would make Hell interesting and still keep Crowley on Sam and Dean's radar.

The same with Cas.  He's been ostracized from Heaven for a few years now, but he is an Angel. And at one time he was a pretty important Angel.  With God off on vacation with Amara, and Heaven without a real leader, they could have seriously had Cas trying to make amends and fix things in Heaven.  He could also be available to help Sam and Dean whenever, but again, make Heaven interesting.

I would have much preferred to watch that this season, along with the BMOL storyline, instead of the Lucifer drivel we've been given.  But again, it involves having writers with imaginations, and that seems to be the stumbling block.

[gonzosgirrl]

I keep reading about the need for all the secondary characters and storylines to give the Js more time off, but honestly, did they even get much time? Given how well their comings and goings are publicized by stalkerazzi and fans, it doesn't seem like they were off-set all that often. A lot of Jensen's 'babies' time was over the Christmas break, and Jared's just before the end of filming. Jensen was obviously written out of some acts with little-to-no explanation (looking at you, Perez) but neither of them really seemed to have benefited from time off - not enough to justify, for me, the lack of good Winchester Brothers, and most especially Dean, action. YMMV.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't disagree with this at all, but they could have done a much better job of keeping Cas and Crowley relevant.  Lucifer didn't need to even be a part of the picture.  Heaven and Hell have been in complete states of chaos for quite a while now.  They could have shown Crowley getting some of his mojo back and make Hell actually feel like Hell.  They could have ramped up on the demon deals, or anything else that would make Hell interesting and still keep Crowley on Sam and Dean's radar.

The same with Cas.  He's been ostracized from Heaven for a few years now, but he is an Angel. And at one time he was a pretty important Angel.  With God off on vacation with Amara, and Heaven without a real leader, they could have seriously had Cas trying to make amends and fix things in Heaven.  He could also be available to help Sam and Dean whenever, but again, make Heaven interesting.

I would have much preferred to watch that this season, along with the BMOL storyline, instead of the Lucifer drivel we've been given.  But again, it involves having writers with imaginations, and that seems to be the stumbling block.

 I totally agree that it's down to the writers and their lack of imagination! Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I'd even be more than happy to see them remove heaven from Cas storyline altogether and take him totally somewhere totally new and unexpected! But again we'd need writers with a ) the talent / imagination for such a move and b) actual interest / investment in the character to make this new journey compelling. Sadly, we lack tnis. 

I'm not too sure what they could do with Crowley outside of hell and even within hell I feel their options are limited. The problem with Crowley is the need to find a long term way of making him bad / King of hell worthy and yet not so bad that Sam and Dean should still be actively seeking to kill him! Since I'm not a Crowley centric fan I'm not really sure how they could overcome that. 

[MysteryGuest]

It's interesting to me that the Crossroad Demons have consistently been some of the best demons on the series.  I guess they need to be the demons with the most charisma, since they're trying to talk people into selling their souls.  

I think there are any number of ways to make Crowley more badass as the King of Hell, while still recognizing that he needs the Winchesters, and they need him.  

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

b) actual interest / investment in the character to make this new journey compelling. Sadly, we lack tnis.

I think this might be the biggest issue right now.  Do the show runners really have the interest in keeping this show going, or are they just going to ride things out until it ends?  It annoys me because I think there's plenty of story left to tell, but they just keep doing the same thing, over and over.  Now it's possible that they have an exact end date, but if that's true, then all the more reason to go out with a bang. 

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I agree. Even though I like the character I think he is done story wise. I think that if the writers weren't so afraid of the backlash they would have killed him off sooner. 

I don't agree with this at all. Heaven will always be there. He's family to the Winchesters now. He's got the nephelim SL. He's always going to be part of Dean and Sam's story, like it or not.  Just because the writers haven't hit on a compelling SL yet doesn't mean HIS story is done.  YMMV.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I keep reading about the need for all the secondary characters and storylines to give the Js more time off, but honestly, did they even get much time? Given how well their comings and goings are publicized by stalkerazzi and fans, it doesn't seem like they were off-set all that often. A lot of Jensen's 'babies' time was over the Christmas break, and Jared's just before the end of filming. Jensen was obviously written out of some acts with little-to-no explanation (looking at you, Perez) but neither of them really seemed to have benefited from time off - not enough to justify, for me, the lack of good Winchester Brothers, and most especially Dean, action. YMMV.

I think they've mostly just lightened Jensen and Jared's hours per day by reducing their stunts and shooting a lot more sit 'n' chats where they tell us something they did off camera and such. However, I do think Jared and Jensen had more time off in the back half especially. It seems to me there was a couple episodes they had shorter weeks and such. Episodes like Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets and Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell.

But Cass and Crowley do help lighten the load on Jared and Jensen just by having scenes they don't have to be in at all. That's why they've kept Crowley and Cass away from the main action for most the back half of the season, IMO. I think that's why the show feels like Sam and Dean are guest stars on their own show right now.

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think they've mostly just lightened Jensen and Jared's hours per day by reducing their stunts and shooting a lot more sit 'n' chats where they tell us something they did off camera and such. However, I do think Jared and Jensen had more time off in the back half especially. It seems to me there was a couple episodes they had shorter weeks and such. Episodes like Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets and Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell.

But Cass and Crowley do help lighten the load on Jared and Jensen just by having scenes they don't have to be in at all. That's why they've kept Crowley and Cass away from the main action for most the back half of the season, IMO. I think that's why the show feels like Sam and Dean are guest stars on their own show right now.

I'm not really sure Castiel can be blamed for the whole "guest stars on their own show" in the latter half of season 12. I mean since 12x12 he has only appeared in two episodes and in one of them (12x15) he only had 5 minutes of screen time. Since I'm not as invested in Crowley I have no idea about his prominence in the second half off the top of my head though. 

[catrox14]

IMO, it's the BMOL and Mary that make Sam and Dean seem like guest stars in their own show, far more than Cas and/or Crowley. In a funny way, Cas has been present even in eps that he doesn't appear because of Dean and Sam being worried about him constantly and talking about him. So IMO, Cas was there in spirit if not in person.

[rue721]

58 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

My personal ideal storyline would involve them making him human permanately.

I liked Cas as a human, because he had integrity and was a hard worker -- my favorite things a person can be. But I don't think that him becoming human permanently would solve anything, because IMO the issue goes way beyond the writers being unable to deal with Cas being overpowered.

IMO his "journey"/character arc ended when he chose to go 100% ride or die for Team Free Will, and the character has been adrift since then. When they kind of played up Cas's supposed "daddy issues" (with Claire) only to have Cas's "dad," Chuck, actually come onscreen and interact AT LENGTH with losers like Metatron and Lucifer but not ever really connect with Cas in a meaningful way, I finally figured that the show was finished not just with Cas as an angel (and dealing with the "overpowered" issue), but with Cas as a character.

My main issue is that I really like Misha. He's always so charming and delightful in his social media, etc. I feel like there's not really anywhere else the show wants to go with Cas, and IMO that's fine, I do feel like his story is already told (YMMV). But it would be cool if somehow Misha could stay on the show as someone else's vessel ;)

24 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not too sure what they could do with Crowley outside of hell and even within hell I feel their options are limited.

My vote is always that they cure him.

I actually find the whole King of Hell thing incredibly boring. Honestly, the fun thing about Crowley is that he was such a desperate little climber, so I think his story is never going to be that dynamic as long as he's actually on top.

But I think he's an interesting character aside from being a demon (IMO being a demon is the most boring and played out thing about him) -- mostly because as either a demon or as a human, he seems to just live in "the grey are." That makes him unusual in the world of the show, being just some random jerk off -- not a hero or actually even that sadistically bad (for a demon anyway). It's like he fell into the show from the world of Better Call Saul or something IMO ;)

I'd love to watch him try to find angle after angle and scam and claw his way through life as a human being. But I loved the Trickster, too, so of course I'd say that.

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not really sure Castiel can be blamed for the whole "guest stars on their own show" in the latter half of season 12. I mean since 12x12 he has only appeared in two episodes and in one of them (12x15) he only had 5 minutes of screen time. Since I'm not as invested in Crowley I have no idea about his prominence in the second half off the top of my head though. 

Well, we normally have Mark and Misha around to keep Jensen and Jared from having to be in every scene.  But this year we've had Lucifer, Mary, Cas, Crowley and the BMOL.  That's given them more time off than ever before, IMO.  Even if that just means shorter days, less action scenes, etc.  Sadly, it hasn't made for better episodes.  

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, rue721 said:

IMO his "journey"/character arc ended when he chose to go 100% ride or die for Team Free Will, and the character has been adrift since then. When they kind of played up Cas's supposed "daddy issues" (with Claire) only to have Cas's "dad," Chuck, actually come onscreen and interact AT LENGTH with losers like Metatron and Lucifer but not ever really connect with Cas in a meaningful way, I finally figured that the show was finished not just with Cas as an angel (and dealing with the "overpowered" issue), but with Cas as a character.

I agree with you on this! My moment of realisation was when they reverted to the same old crap again in The Future. That is why I actually hope that my speculation they're going to write out Cas proves to be correct. My "make him human" thing was more what I'd like to see happen in an alternative universe where we had writers who actually respected him and had interesting in writing his journey. 

[companionenvy]

C

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

gree with you on this! My moment of realisation was when they reverted to the same old crap again in The Future.

Cas got a power-up in The Future, but while Dean thinks he's possessed again, I don't think that's going to turn out to be the case. The show may have no shame about repeating the same old stories, but based on the way the episode was written, I think Cas is finally going to get his win. Or, at least, he's going to be right about Lucifer's spawn - the win might have to wait for a while. 

One thing that hasn't gotten much discussion is what Cas meant by Sproutifer (tm Catrox, I think) showing him "the future." Because I don't think Spawn is evil, but I also think it would be a real step back for the show to have some angelic savior step in with a grand new plan for humanity. The best I can do is that Cas may have seen some vision of a reformed heaven and/or hell, which would make Sproutifer a possible savior of a sort, but wouldn't fly in the face of the values of TFW. 

[DittyDotDot]

45 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not really sure Castiel can be blamed for the whole "guest stars on their own show" in the latter half of season 12. I mean since 12x12 he has only appeared in two episodes and in one of them (12x15) he only had 5 minutes of screen time. Since I'm not as invested in Crowley I have no idea about his prominence in the second half off the top of my head though. 

I wasn't blaming anyone. I think the show has a lot of limitations right now and it's trying it's best to compensate for all those limitations while also not wanting to show it's limitations. Jared and Jensen want--and deserve--more time off. To accomplish that, they have to reduce their screen time somehow. Cass and Crowley running their own separate storylines is one way they've done it. Whether you like those storylines or not is a different matter.

TBH, I actually don't have a problem with Sam and Dean being guest stars at this point. I think the show has ran the gambit on them already.  IMO, the show is stagnating and has been for years and largely because their unwillingness to shift focus away from Sam and Dean. Don't get me wrong, I love both Sam and Dean and I don't want them gone from the show. But, I do think their story has been told and it would be smart of the show to start telling some of the other characters' stories.

Edited May 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot