Spoilers With Speculation

[Aeryn13]

Hm. Either the people in charge gave the go-ahead or it`s done so relatively close to the airing of the actual ep, they`ll let it slide. It`s promotion after all.

I personally think this is the first bit of good news I`ve gotten for the ep. Maybe it won`t suck so bad. Pardon the pun.

[Myrelle]

Well, Dean did want a hunt badly and that he needed to hit something.

This kind of opens up things a bit. Maybe Ketch IS the one who will switch sides. Maybe he'll get sick and tired of being the junkyard dog for Mick and the higher-ups. Maybe he'll want to become his own man; kind of like someone else we know.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Well, Dean did want a hunt badly and that he needed to hit something.

This kind of opens up things a bit. Maybe Ketch IS the one who will switch sides. Maybe he'll get sick and tired of being the junkyard dog for Mick and the higher-ups. Maybe he'll want to become his own man; kind of like someone else we know.

That would be an interesting turn.  But he seems to enjoy killing and if Lady McTorturesMuch is to be believed, he's a psychopath. 

I'm not quite comfortable with Ketch and Dean being equated here. Dean is not a psychopath. He was a demon for a hot minute and had the Mark of Cain which turned him into a bloodthirsty killer.

Edited March 2, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Now I think Ketch may get a call or an alarm or something and if he tells Dean what`s what, that their compound is under attack with both Mary and Sam in it, of course Dean would come. He would most likely come to help if Mary and Sam weren`t there. I doubt he would let even stupidly naive BMOL people die and not help. Hence, they will both go. Ketch would be stupid not to tell him if things are so dire.

[Myrelle]

Maybe Ketch is getting a bum rap because he just follows orders, though. We haven't seen him torture anyone. If he killed the witnesses on Mick's orders then that would be his job. In some ways, he's just a soldier albeit more of a hammer-type and a very efficient killing machine. Dean would know what that looks like and feels like from early on in the show.

[Geordiegirl1967]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It's not like the boys are a married couple. Siblings fight and disagree and are not always in lock step. I've never been upset with the brotherly angst myself. The boys are different people, with different motivations and outlooks. I do think their conflict in this situation is organic to the extent that it might reveal how connections with parents alter sibling relationships.

This is a misunderstanding of what I was saying. I was not asking for them to be 'like a married couple' though its not like they always agree/live in perfect harmony (for the record, and to avoid misinterpretation, I am in no way a wincest fan). And I am fine with them debating, bickering, having different points of view. That, as you say, has always been a feature of their relationship since day 1. What has not always been a feature has been them being dishonest with each other, betraying each other, not having each others backs when it really came down to it.

Carver made it his 'go to' trope and didn't care if he had to make the boys act out of character if he needed them to to give him the story he wanted. I hated that; Sam not looking for Dean (as if that was remotely credible or consistent with his established character), Dean not telling Sam about Gadreel, Sam's ludicrous reaction to it, Dean being made to look like he preferred Benny to Sam, Sam hiding his efforts to get rid of the MoC (eg the BotD), Dean being angry about it and on and on. I just really don't want to go back to those bad old days and I had hoped Dabb wouldn't.

I'm trying not to pre judge this ep and am heartened that it seems like Dean and Ketch filmed together for The Raid, which gives me hope that both boys decide to give the BMoL a chance and there is no rift. But I fear that, in order to explain Jensen's absence from the ep, Dabb will create a disagreement between D&S which I don't buy. I buy that they would disagree between themselves. I do NOT buy that they would act separately to the outside world, letting Mary and the BMoL think they can divide them. I think they would argue between themselves, agree their joint position - even if that took a lot of arguing to get to it - and act on that decision together. 

[ILoveReading]

Another interview

http://www.tvinsider.com/131592/supernatural-mary-winchester-samantha-smith-interview/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=tvi

Quote

On the March 2 episode, "The Raid," Mary is all in with them going after a nest of vampires. Do Sam and/or Dean join her?
Sam is there. Dean is not. What she really wants both of them to do is see her perspective that she loves them and is doing this for them.

Sounds like Mary isn't open to listening to anyone is very much on, on my way or the highway approach. 

Mary can keep telling herself that she's doing it for son, but it reminds of the the whole Ruby thing, when Sam kept saying the same thing.  He kept saying it was for revenge, to save people, the greater good.  But in the end he did it because he made him feel big and strong and get away from Dean's bossiness (Fallen Idol).  He was very much doing it for himself.  I think this is exactly what's going on with Mary.  She's convincing herself that she's doing it for her sons, but I think she's doing it because its allows her to feel powerful.  Like she's in control.  If she insists that her sons see it her way only why, and isn't willing to listen to them, why should they listen to her.  She's no better than John. 

This leaves me thinking that pic with Mr. Ketch is just a badly worded tweet.  There is no hints or anything that Dean goes on the hunt.  He's not in any of the episode stills, he's barely in the promo and doesn't appear at all in the producer preview, and I stopped believing in, "its too spoilery"  I find if they aren't talking about it its usually not happening.

I hope I'm wrong but so far everything about this ep seems paint by the numbers.

[Aeryn13]

I think the spoiler pic is legit. Dean isn`t on the hunt, he will only come in with Ketch at the very end. Sam Smith makes Mary sound so self-involved, I can easily see how Dean doesn`t count for that purpose.

And yeah, that self-righteous justification that Mary has and that she actually want validation? Fuck that. She can get a kick in the gut for all I care.

[Mick Lady]

I agree with Georgiegirl, I too think the brothers are the heart of this show. Carver's decision to have Sam not try to save Dean from Purgatory was so unbelievable! What show was he writing for?

If Dean goes along with the BMoL, I hope it's only to protect Mary. I just can't see him joining them, he's always been very sharp when it comes to seeing through people. He knows this group is corrupt!

I'm still not convinced that Mary is hunting with them to protect her sons. I think there's another motive that hasn't been revealed yet. I have no idea what, but there has to be another reason. Ridding the world of all evil is just not possible. Crowley anyone?

One more thing, if they kill the Alpha Vamp I will be all sorts of pissed off! And if they have to give us some endless dialog tonight, it better be from him. Love that voice!!

[ILoveReading]

http://ew.com/tv/2017/03/02/supernatural-samantha-smith-mary-winchester-season-12/

Why does Mary think she can make decisions for Sam and Dean? 

It's not hunting that the Men of Letters are doing.  Sam and Dean catch a case because of a dead body.  They don't look up family trees of werewolves and go elminate them just cause they they're werewovles.  It makes them no better than Cain, who was killing descendants of murderers.

It makes me wonder if the Brits are going to eventually end up going after Garth, or Cas, Rowena or Crowley.  All Supernatural creatures but friends/frenimies of the Winchester

Quote

The most expedient way is the way she’s going to choose and from a very pragmatic point of view, the British Men of Letters seem to have that wired. They have a plan, they have the toys, they have the personnel, and the knowledge and the lore. They have everything at their disposal, so while the Winchesters do manage to always squeak by, it’s pretty hairy and they’ve all died plenty of times, so the most prudent route might be what seems to be the most professional, together, militarized one.”

Good things those Brits are there to teach the WInchesters how wrong and ineffective they are.

Quote

And yet, this week’s episode will feature Mary trying to explain the reasoning behind her choice and maybe even get her sons on board — well, at least one of her sons. “They are so different,” Smith says of Sam and Dean. “She is learning how to navigate the different personalities of her kids. You need to talk to them both very differently to be heard.”

These talks usually don't work out so well for Dean.  He usually get told to stop being bossy, called a nancy, told to suck it up or told he isn't a person. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

You know at this point, I feel like in the Frasier episode when he accidentally had sex with his boss on the air in his radio show, doing dirty talk with each other. And his brother listened to it and repeatedly said, in an increasingly agitated voice, "stop talking". That`s how those interviews make me feel.   

Edited March 2, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

23 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I agree with Georgiegirl, I too think the brothers are the heart of this show. Carver's decision to have Sam not try to save Dean from Purgatory was so unbelievable! What show was he writing for?

That storyline was such a waste of potential. Carver had actually laid foundation that could have made it interesting i.e Sam made the decision to not try and resurrect Dean and potentially ruin things by messing with the natural order. It could have been an amazing self analysis of the brothers. They could have discussed the fact such deals had led to the apocalypse in the past. They could have argued and debated was it right to put each other first? Or was it selfish to put the world at risk for the sake of one person? Instead they decide to just make Sam look like the horrid abandoner and the brothers turn into petty children. 

@ILoveReading

i think that's an interesting possibility about them going after Castiel, Crowley, Garth and Rowena. I'd be curious to see what Mary would do if they turned on their allies. Would that make her see the light of day, or serve as the permanent split between her and the boys. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

http://ew.com/tv/2017/03/02/supernatural-samantha-smith-mary-winchester-season-12/

Why does Mary think she can make decisions for Sam and Dean? 

It's not hunting that the Men of Letters are doing.  Sam and Dean catch a case because of a dead body.  They don't look up family trees of werewolves and go elminate them just cause they they're werewovles.  It makes them no better than Cain, who was killing descendants of murderers.

It makes me wonder if the Brits are going to eventually end up going after Garth, or Cas, Rowena or Crowley.  All Supernatural creatures but friends/frenimies of the Winchester

I'm getting tired of this false equivalency they are trying to draw between hunters and BMoL. They are not the same and they do things differently. Mary you are not hunting with BMoL. You are learning how to exterminate. I mean yes it's expedient but it's not hunting. 

And yeah, I think that all the other supernatural creatures are on their radar at some point. And that actually could include Sam and Dean too given their time as 'Other"

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And yeah, I think that all the other supernatural creatures are on their radar at some point. And that actually could include Sam and Dean too given their time as 'Other"

 Could they turn on them and Mary at the same time and attempt a family extermination? After all a woman who has returned from the dead after thirty odd years is hardly what I'd call normal haha 

[Mick Lady]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm getting tired of this false equivalency they are trying to draw between hunters and BMoL. They are not the same and they do things differently. Mary you are not hunting with BMoL. You are learning how to exterminate. I mean yes it's expedient but it's not hunting. 

Oh wow catrox! Never thought of it that way. Really fine analysis!

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 Could they turn on them and Mary at the same time and attempt a family extermination? After all a woman who has returned from the dead after thirty odd years is hardly what I'd call normal haha 

Yeah they might. Although do they actually know she came back from the dead? I mean maybe they think the reports of her demise were wrong. Maybe they just think she's well aged.

Edited March 2, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah they might. Although do they actually know she came back from the dead? I mean maybe they think the reports of her demise were wrong.

I think at the very least they'd suspect something is wrong. Samantha Smith / Mary definitely does not look like the 60 odd  she's meant to. She's only 8 years older than Jensen and it definitely shows on screen. 

Thats not a slight at her or Jensen btw. They both look great for any age haha 

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Mick Lady]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 Could they turn on them and Mary at the same time and attempt a family extermination? After all a woman who has returned from the dead after thirty odd years is hardly what I'd call normal haha 

I was wondering the same thing. They tortured Sam to get the names of the other hunters. Why?

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I was wondering the same thing. They tortured Sam to get the names of the other hunters. Why?

I assume that was just so they could begin the recruitment process we saw them try on Wally during First Blood. 

Funnily enough that I can recall Alex, Jodie and Donna are probably the only true human recurring characters we have. If we are being truly strict about it. The brothers are resurrected beings and Angel vessels, Mary's a resurrected being, Cas and Crowley are obvious, Claire Novaks a vessel, Rowena is a witch and Garth is a werewolf. What other alive allies do they have? Haha 

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wayward Son

[SueB]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

http://ew.com/tv/2017/03/02/supernatural-samantha-smith-mary-winchester-season-12/

Why does Mary think she can make decisions for Sam and Dean? 

It's not hunting that the Men of Letters are doing.  Sam and Dean catch a case because of a dead body.  They don't look up family trees of werewolves and go elminate them just cause they they're werewovles.  It makes them no better than Cain, who was killing descendants of murderers.

It makes me wonder if the Brits are going to eventually end up going after Garth, or Cas, Rowena or Crowley.  All Supernatural creatures but friends/frenimies of the Winchester

Good things those Brits are there to teach the WInchesters how wrong and ineffective they are.

These talks usually don't work out so well for Dean.  He usually get told to stop being bossy, called a nancy, told to suck it up or told he isn't a person. 

Well, this is the theory (that Mary is doing this to eliminate the hunting threat in most expeditious fashion and in a safer fashion than what they've done before) is the theory I've been spouting for months.  I don't think she's making a decision for Sam and Dean.  She's not taking their choice away, she's making choices regarding herself that will make them unhappy.  There IS a difference.  Now, IMO, as a parent, I think it's perfectly FINE to try and make the world a safer place for her children.  Further, Mary thinks her children are in a dangerous profession because of HER decision -- so she wants to fix it.  The questions that she's not thinking through properly:
- She's decided that her life is less valuable than a safer world for Sam and Dean -- which is why she's hunting so much.   But, as I've said multiple times, that's selfish. Just like John's decision to end his life for Dean was selfish. And Dean's decision to sell his soul for Sam was selfish.  And Sam thought HE, and ONLY  he, would have to die to stop Lillith. This is apparently Winchester 101.  To think that another person would be happy if you died for them.  EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE FAMILY HAS DONE IT (do they get a badge or a cookie if successful??) No, no, nopety, no.  We've learned the hard way (S1-S11) that this is a bad choice. And Mary hasn't learned that lesson because she's gone from roasted long pork on the ceiling to alive without experiencing all the lessons learned in-between.  But she IS essentially making THE classic Winchester mistake.  So, it's selfish, but it's not making a decision for them.  
- The ends don't justify the means.  See @catrox14 comment (and others) about why the BMoL is unethical.
- Her boys will put themselves in the line of fire if it goes to shit.  See "Stuck in the Middle (With You)"
- She's not owning up to the notion that she was looking for an edge because she was so out of her league in 2017 trying to hunt with 1983 methods.

Ultimately, Mary IMO has the right to make the decision on how she hunts.  But it's selfish if it gets her killed and will hurt Sam and Dean.  

[IWantDean]

The info on my tv says this and I hope it's true.

"A chance to take out a neat of vampires backfires when the Alpha-vamp shows up and turns the tables"

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

.  She's not taking their choice away, she's making choices regarding herself that will make them unhappy.  There IS a difference.

I kind of think this is not true in this case. This isn't just making them unhappy. It actively endangered them unnecessarily. If the boys knew the Colt was at stake, they would have been all over that as a BIG FUCKING DEAL because it is. It put them directly in the line of fire against a Prince of Hell. She didn't know he was a Prince of Hell, but because she withheld mission critical information it's more than selfish. It's reckless. So in this case, her choice to work with the BMoL to steal the Colt without the boys knowledge or consent endangered all of them and almost got Cas killed and DID kill Wally.

[SueB]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I kind of think this is not true in this case. This isn't just making them unhappy. It actively endangered them unnecessarily. If the boys knew the Colt was at stake, they would have been all over that as a BIG FUCKING DEAL because it is. It put them directly in the line of fire against a Prince of Hell. She didn't know he was a Prince of Hell, but because she withheld mission critical information it's more than selfish. It's reckless. So in this case, her choice to work with the BMoL to steal the Colt without the boys knowledge or consent endangered all of them and almost got Cas killed and DID kill Wally.

I guess I see that as a second, equally important issue.

The first issue I was 'defending' was Mary's right to work with the BMoL to 'make the world safer'.  Generically, that's her call, her decision.

The second, more insidious issue, is to withhold critical data from them on a case they are working.  THAT, IMO, is indefensible.  But I don't think she decided "they don't NEED to know."  That would be making a decision for them.  No, she just flat out lied by omission.  

Is this making sense?  I'm saying she's not making a decision for THEM to hunt with the BMoL, she chose to do so for herself and that's her call.  She's also lobbying them to join her.  Again, theoretically okay -- it's still their call.  Lying to them about essential information on a hunt is not 'taking away their decision', it's just lying. (Suddenly I see Mr. Fizzles coming in and saying 'You're a LI-AR'). 

[Mick Lady]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

(Suddenly I see Mr. Fizzles coming in and saying 'You're a LI-AR'). 

Oh good one! I actually made a Mr. Fizzles puppet, because I weird like that!

[SueB]

Just now, Mick Lady said:

Oh good one! I actually made a Mr. Fizzles puppet, because I weird like that!

Pictures PLEASE! We could use it every time a character lies.

Edited March 2, 2017 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

19 minutes ago, SueB said:

(Suddenly I see Mr. Fizzles coming in and saying 'You're a LI-AR').

Ahhhhhhh!

13 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Oh good one! I actually made a Mr. Fizzles puppet, because I weird like that!

Wait I'm the scary one?

Hee, kidding. Somehow I find Mr. Fizzles both incredibly creepy and amusing at the same time. I can't believe Mr. Fizzles didn't end up making the rounds on the set like the tape ball does, because to me that would just be gold. As in he needs his own Twitter account with photos of his "adventures."

[RulerofallIsurvey]

31 minutes ago, SueB said:

The second, more insidious issue, is to withhold critical data from them on a case they are working.  THAT, IMO, is indefensible.  But I don't think she decided "they don't NEED to know."  That would be making a decision for them.  No, she just flat out lied by omission.

But she didn't just lie by omission on that hunt either.  She actively recruited Wally and actively got him to call Sam and Dean for help - and coached him on what to say to them.  She didn't want Sam and Dean to know she was working with the BMoL and knew they'd turn her down if she was the one who asked.  (She admitted as much in the flashback in the car with just her and Wally.)

ETA: When you have someone make a decision, but you don't give them all the information pertaining to the decision (as Mary didn't on the last hunt with her) isn't that kind of making a decision for them?  It's at least seriously impacting their ability to make an objective decision and exerting undue influence on their decision making process.  

Edited March 2, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
making decisions

[trxr4kids]

35 minutes ago, SueB said:

Is this making sense?  I'm saying she's not making a decision for THEM to hunt with the BMoL, she chose to do so for herself and that's her call.  She's also lobbying them to join her.  Again, theoretically okay -- it's still their call.

My problem with this is that her motivation for working with them seems to be to rid the world of monsters for Sam and Dean without ever thinking about what they would want. They both told her that they feel like hunting is their thing, so let's say they don't have anything to hunt anymore, then what?Are they supposed to learn to make cheese or maybe take up basket weaving? She's trying to take away their right to choose what they do based on her feelings of what they should do without actually attempting to know who they are and what they want. I would be fine with her working with the BMoL if Sam and Dean weren't being used as an excuse for it if that makes sense. She's also as you said lobbying them to join using the mom card IMO to suit her purposes which is manipulative. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by trxr4kids

[MysteryGuest]

I have major issues with Mary making such poor decisions because she thinks the end result will be worth it.  She's not dealing with minors here, her sons are grown men who've been hunting much longer than she ever did, and hunting creatures she's never even heard of.  I suppose it could be said that since she can't bring herself to mother them, this is the best she can do, but I'm not buying it.  

I'll be pissed if Dean buys in to anything that Ketch has to say.  If he joins him because the hunt has gone south, that's one thing, but if he actually starts to agree with them, I'm not going to like it.  I can accept that Sam went along with her just to keep the peace, but I want the Winchesters to be shown to be the smart hunters they are...for once.

[SueB]

23 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

My problem with this is that her motivation for working with them seems to be to rid the world of monsters for Sam and Dean without ever thinking about what they would want. They both told her that they feel like hunting is their thing, so let's say they don't have anything to hunt anymore, then what?Are they supposed to learn to make cheese or maybe take up basket weaving? She's trying to take away their right to choose what they do based on her feelings of what they should do without actually attempting to know who they are and what they want. I would be fine with her working with the BMoL if Sam and Dean weren't being used as an excuse for it if that makes sense. She's also as you said lobbying them to join using the mom card IMO to suit her purposes which is manipulative. 

I agree she's manipulating them.  I think her 'rid the world of monsters' is overly ambitious and not really LIKELY to put Sam and Dean out of a job.  Still, it could happen, and then yes, she's made a decision for ALL hunters.

But you know who ALSO did that?  Sam and Dean.  They decided they were going to close the gates of Hell.  THEY decided that, they didn't get anyone else's input.  And as Metatron described it -- it was a BIG lever.  The outcome of that, ultimately abandoned, effort?
- Sam near Death so Dean helped an Angel take over his body without Sam's approval, Kevin got killed when the Angel started working with Metatron, Dean spiraled after the fallout and took on the Mark of Cain, which resulted in him being a demon and then ultimately led to Sam releasing the Darkness, which nearly ended the universe as we know it.
KINDOF A BIG DEAL.
- Second order effect: Crowley developed FEELINGS, which destabilized hell for a while - that actually was a good thing for team 'humanity'
- Second order effect: They kicked over the hornet's nest which was Metatron, who decided HE would pull a big lever, banished Angels to earth (who killed THOUSANDs of vessels), lost all the Angel's their wings, but also ended up in the surviving Angels getting back on mission. A lot of damage here but with some positives too.
- Second order effect: Kicked over ANOTHER hornet's nest which was Cain. Who started to cull 10% of the population until killed by Dean.  Pretty much all down-side.

 

So... if Mary actually rid the world of monsters, I imagine it too would have primary and secondary unintended consequences.  Hopefully not a big as 'close the gates of hell' attempt. If the ONLY consequence was hunters finding new jobs, I'd call the world lucky. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by SueB

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Now, IMO, as a parent, I think it's perfectly FINE to try and make the world a safer place for her children.  Further, Mary thinks her children are in a dangerous profession because of HER decision -- so she wants to fix it.  The questions that she's not thinking through properly:

@catrox14

 

What come to my mind is when John told Sam and Dean that he was lying to them and trying to keep them safe.  Dean said (paraphasing) "With all due respect that's a bunch of crap.  You know what Sammy and I have been hunting.  Hell you even sent us on a bunch of hunts yourself.

This is what Mary did with Stuck in the Middle with you.   She claims she wants them safe yet endangers their lives by not giving them the option to be prepared for a much bigger threat then they were.  This lead to Wally getting killed.  Would he have made the same decision if he knew?  Would Dean have sacrificed the colt if he knew Mary had it to save Cas?  These are decisions Mary took away.

Why didn't Mary tell Sam and Dean about the colt.  She's not dumb, she would know that they would never agree to hand it over.   In that moment she prioritized the mission over her sons.   She did the same when she refused to give up the colt.

She has to see what Cas means to Sam and Dean.  Is she ultimately making their world a better place if their friends get killed along the way.

Mary should be asking questions here. Its not like she's competely naive.   She needs to ask Sam and Dean if they want a world without monsters.  On paper it sounds great, but as the show has established not all monsters deserve to die.  

My father told me never to ask a question unless I was prepared to hear the answer.  This is why I feel like Mary isn't asking right now.  I think she wants to keep working with them and her telling her self its for her sons.  That may be one reason, but I feel its not the only one, or should wouldn't still be hiding things. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by ILoveReading

[rue721]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Ultimately, Mary IMO has the right to make the decision on how she hunts.  But it's selfish if it gets her killed and will hurt Sam and Dean.

I mean sure. Mary can do whatever her heart desires. But her choices are idiotic. IMO the dilemma is, what are Sam and Dean supposed to do when their mother is running around being recklessly stupid?

Honestly, the idea that Mary truly believes that she's "ridding the world of monsters" by working with Ketch makes me respect her less than if she were playing an angle or even was just acting on a death wish. I feel like if someone is just an ass, then at least you can trust them to look out for themselves...but Mary can't even be trusted to do THAT. Because she's not just an ass, she's a dumbass.

The day when Rowena starts looking like a better mother... ;) I'm kidding, but I will give Rowena that she's proactive, independent, and a survivor. Mary could maybe learn a thing or two after all, I guess.

[Wynne88]

Quote

She didn't want Sam and Dean to know she was working with the BMoL and knew they'd turn her down if she was the one who asked. 

I don't think she was afraid they would turn her down.  As I recall, she was afraid they would ask too many questions which she clearly didn't want to answer.  

[trxr4kids]

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

But you know who ALSO did that?  Sam and Dean.  They decided they were going to close the gates of Hell.  THEY decided that, they didn't get anyone else's input.

The difference for me is their apparent motivations.* Sam and Dean wanted to close the gates of hell for the greater good not because of Sam and Dean reasons. They also did get other input, Kevin and Cas. Also all demons are evil, it's what they are.* The BMoL mission is to eradicate any non human whether they're good, bad or somewhere in between, that's genocide not justice.

*I can't believe I just defended the stupid closing the gates bs, hangs head in shame.

Edited March 3, 2017 by trxr4kids

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, trxr4kids said:

 The BMoL mission is to eradicate any non human whether they're good, bad or somewhere in between, that's genocide not justice.

 

And any humans who get in their way. 

[Mick Lady]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Pictures PLEASE! We could use it every time a character lies.

When Hayward comes over Sat. I'll have him take a couple of pictures of it. He can post from his phone, I can't. But it came out really good!

I'll put it in Small Talk. I'm rather proud of it! Mick thought I was nuts, it took me about four different experiments to get it right. It looks exactly like him!

49 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Wait I'm the scary one?

Heh! I have a secret life.... 

[SueB]

@ILoveReading ITA, she's doing EXACTLY what John Winchester did and the boys should be pissed at her.

@rue721 I agree Mary is being a dumbass.  I'm saying she's being a dumbass with a move "right out of the Winchester playbook"

@trxr4kids ... so, okay to block up all demons but not kill all monsters?  I think BOTH have planet-wide consequences.  And Sam and Dean's small circle was not enough IMO to be making that decision for the planet.  It wasn't in response to a threat, it was a proactive decision on their part.  That's where I side-eye them a bit.  And yes, go put on a cone of shame for defending that (JUST KIDDING!). 

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, SueB said:

But you know who ALSO did that?  Sam and Dean.  They decided they were going to close the gates of Hell.  THEY decided that, they didn't get anyone else's input.  And as Metatron described it -- it was a BIG lever.  The outcome of that, ultimately abandoned, effort?
- Sam near Death so Dean helped an Angel take over his body without Sam's approval, Kevin got killed when the Angel started working with Metatron, Dean spiraled after the fallout and took on the Mark of Cain, which resulted in him being a demon and then ultimately led to Sam releasing the Darkness, which nearly ended the universe as we know it.

Sam was literally dying. Sam was facing certain death and the last GOOD information Dean had was that Sam had chosen to live and gave up the trials. There has been no information supplied thus far that Mary is doing this because they face certain immediate death. It would certainly mitigate my irritation (and probably Dean and Sam's ) if she explained her rationale.

IIRC, in the case of closing the Gates of Hell, that wasn't going to exterminate all the demons. It was going to keep them from getting topside again. God put the Hell trial in place. So I dunno I guess if it was God ordained, maybe that's all the consent the boys needed?

The BMoL are seeking mass extermination. That is ...pretty grim and NOT what hunters do.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

@ILoveReading ITA, she's doing EXACTLY what John Winchester did and the boys should be pissed at her.

@rue721 I agree Mary is being a dumbass.  I'm saying she's being a dumbass with a move "right out of the Winchester playbook"

@trxr4kids ... so, okay to block up all demons but not kill all monsters?  I think BOTH have planet-wide consequences.  And Sam and Dean's small circle was not enough IMO to be making that decision for the planet.  It wasn't in response to a threat, it was a proactive decision on their part.  That's where I side-eye them a bit.  And yes, go put on a cone of shame for defending that (JUST KIDDING!). 

Yes its straight out of the Winchester playbook, but I would hope that at 12 seasons in they would start learning from their mistakes.  Mary knew the consequences of the demon deal.  She also knows if something sounds too good to be true it probably is. 

Yes, Sam and Dean as much strangers as the Brits are, but I would hope that Mary's loyalty might be to her sons.  But twice already she was loyal to the Brits  When your actions contradict your mission statement, you either have to change one or the other.  Either Mary needs to tell Sam and Dean everything or she needs to stop working in the Brits.  If she doesn't she's playing the middle, and like Dean said.  Pick a side.  

Its why I didn't like anything about the trial story line.  You would think that Sam and Dean would have learned from their mistakes and not jumped in blind.  The world wasn't in any more danger than it is on a regular basis, so there was no reason to rush in.

[Mick Lady]

42 minutes ago, SueB said:

- Second order effect: They kicked over the hornet's nest which was Metatron, who decided HE would pull a big lever, banished Angels to earth (who killed THOUSANDs of vessels), lost all the Angel's their wings, but also ended up in the surviving Angels getting back on mission. A lot of damage here but with some positives too.

I wish they had addressed this.

[Diane]

[Aeryn13]

Let me guess, it`s the "Alpha" Hellhound or something? Sam will kill him anyway.

Also, seeing as they brought up the "deal with rogue hunters" thing in the last ep, I wonder if Dean is the one dragged away by the BMOL at some later point. Mary would just stand, watch and nod along at this point.   

Edited March 3, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Bergamot]

32 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Let me guess, it`s the "Alpha" Hellhound or something? Sam will kill him anyway.

Also, seeing as they brought up the "deal with rogue hunters" thing in the last ep, I wonder if Dean is the one dragged away by the BMOL at some later point. Mary would just stand, watch and nod along at this point.   

Like father, like daughter? I wonder too.

It actually would perk my interest for the first time in the British MOL storyline if it did come to open warfare between Dean on his own on the one side, and the MOL on the other, even though Mary and Sam have allied themselves with them. I woud like to see them try to take him down. I would find that a much more interesting story to watch than them all banding together as humans to fight the monsters and (blech!) developing a mutual respect, or whatever it is that Dabb has in mind.

Hey, maybe the MOL could even try eventually to take out Dean with the Colt, and discover that he is one of the five things it can't kill. (Just kidding!)

[ILoveReading]

56 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Like father, like daughter? I wonder too.

It actually would perk my interest for the first time in the British MOL storyline if it did come to open warfare between Dean on his own on the one side, and the MOL on the other, even though Mary and Sam have allied themselves with them. I woud like to see them try to take him down. I would find that a much more interesting story to watch than them all banding together as humans to fight the monsters and (blech!) developing a mutual respect, or whatever it is that Dabb has in mind.

Hey, maybe the MOL could even try eventually to take out Dean with the Colt, and discover that he is one of the five things it can't kill. (Just kidding!)

That would actually be an interesting turn of events.     With HMSS going after Dean for getting into their way.  I would love it if Dean turned out to be one of the five things, after all he can kill death without consequences.   But the writers would never let Dean be that special. 

It will never happen thought because the writers would actually have to write for Dean.

[Geordiegirl1967]

33 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

With HMSS going after Dean for getting into their way.  I would love it if Dean turned out to be one of the five things, after all he can kill death without consequences.   But the writers would never let Dean be that special.

Dean is 100% through and through human. Why would he be one of the 5 things the Colt can't kill? Also, as he is human, the Colt could kill him even with a normal bullet which is not true of Lucifer and whoever else it can't kill (I'm guessing God, Amarra, Death, Lucifer and AN Other)

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

If it did come to open warfare between Dean on his own on the one side, and the MOL on the other, even though Mary and Sam have allied themselves with them. I woud like to see them try to take him down

There is no way Sam would ally with the BMoL to take down his own brother. Why would he go along with that? Much as I have my problems with Mary I can't see her doing that either.

[Aeryn13]

This Mary would probably pontificate how he can`t be saved in this life before shooting him right in the head herself. It would be totally in line with the character right now IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

It actually would perk my interest for the first time in the British MOL storyline if it did come to open warfare between Dean on his own on the one side, and the MOL on the other, even though Mary and Sam have allied themselves with them. I woud like to see them try to take him down. I would find that a much more interesting story to watch than them all banding together as humans to fight the monsters and (blech!) developing a mutual respect, or whatever it is that Dabb has in mind.

I actually think this is very likely. I've been saying since the beginning of the season that Mr. Ketch will end up turning against the HMSS and aligning himself with the Winchesters. I think we're already seeing that happen. And, now that Dean and him are drinkin' buddies, I'm guessing Dean will side with Mr. Ketch, too. Sam and Mary will probably try and mitigate the situation from the inside and eventually have to pick their side too, but I think it likely the Brits are going to go after Dean. It's not likely that Dean will bend to their way of doing things and it seems they like their hunters to bend, so... .

Edited March 3, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

If Ketch turns on the BMOL then IMO only because he can`t be okay with their plans to exterminate every monster since apparently he needs those around to sublimate his sociopathic urges. I`m not sure this is gonna be the basis for any partnership. Dean might think he is just a killer but he isn`t actually so it`s not like they truly have that in common.

[ILoveReading]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I actually think this is very likely. I've been saying since the beginning of the season that Mr. Ketch will end up turning against the HMSS and aligning himself with the Winchesters. I think we're already seeing that happen. And, now that Dean and him are drinkin' buddies, I'm guessing Dean will side with Mr. Ketch, too. Sam and Mary will probably try and mitigate the situation from the inside and eventually have to pick their side too, but I think it likely the Brits are going to go after Dean. It's not likely that Dean will bend to their way of doing things and it seems they like their hunters to bend, so... .

The way this season is shaping up, I feel like its far more likely that Sam will turn Mick and Dean will... got lost somewhere on some back stretch of road. 

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If Ketch turns on the BMOL then IMO only because he can`t be okay with their plans to exterminate every monster since apparently he needs those around to sublimate his sociopathic urges. I`m not sure this is gonna be the basis for any partnership. Dean might think he is just a killer but he isn`t actually so it`s not like they truly have that in common.

I think Mick sees he doesn't actually need the MoL to hunt monsters. His tour here in the states has shown him he doesn't have to bow down to the stuffed shirts. It seems, judging by this episode, he's already starting to go rogue... .