Spoilers With Speculation

[companionenvy]

Post-pilot Speculation:

The British MoL have made a (perhaps literal) deal with the devil/a demon, which is how they've managed to get the means to keep their territory monster free. The "old men" Toni mentioned, I suspect, are supernatural creatures of some kind themselves.

Now, I'm going to admit that part of my reasoning here is based on the assumption that the SPN writers are actually smarter than this pilot makes them appear, because if there isn't something extremely hinky going on with the BMOL, then the explanation for why they haven't contacted the Americans before is moronic even by the standards of this show.

If the BMOL had devised a reliable means of saving whole populations from all supernatural threat, there is simply no good reason not to share that information with those fighting the supernatural in other countries. I don't care that they look down on hunters, I don't care that they may have a general non-interference policy, if you could save countless numbers of people simply by doing an exchange program, you do it. Any person with any shred of conscience would. 

It gets even worse when we find out that they knew about Apocalypse Mark I. At that point, self-interest alone should have forced them to intervene. There was a serious, serious threat of the entire world being destroyed (as, indeed, there was last year), and they evidently did nothing because the "old men" didn't want to. This only makes sense if the organization is beholden to some power with vested interests that don't prioritize the survival of humanity.

Beyond that, if the BMOL are just scarily efficient monster-catchers without a lot of room for nuance, by the end of the season, if not sooner, there would really be no reason for the Winchesters and the other American hunters to implement something similar, albeit with some allowances for monsters who aren't harming anyone. We haven't heard that this is definitely the last season, and I don't think the show would do something that game-changing if it weren't ending. I also think this is heading toward a validation of at least the bulk of Sam and Dean's work. So, there needs to be a good reason why the BMOL path is not an option. I'm thinking whatever peace they've achieved has come at a very high price.

Oh, and I also think the Lady Toni's Kid = Secret!WinchesterSpawn theory got a (very) little support from Dean's "I get it. I mean, if I had kids, I wouldn't want them to be hunters." That's one of those comments that sounds like it could wind up being ironic/significant in retrospect. 

[catrox14]

Just now, companionenvy said:

very) little support from Dean's "I get it. I mean, if I had kids, I wouldn't want them to be hunters." That's one of those comments that sounds like it could wind up being ironic/significant in retrospect. 

I will lose my shit if this happens. I thought about during the finale but I'll be really pissed if they do this.

[AwesomO4000]

If the kid was older, I would almost more guess another Winchester half-brother, but the timing isn't right.

[Binns]

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I will lose my shit if this happens. I thought about during the finale but I'll be really pissed if they do this.

Same. I didn't like the looks of things when she appeared to be genuinely upset Dean was dead (when she was capturing Sam). Don't go there, show. 

[SueB]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

Post-pilot Speculation:

The British MoL have made a (perhaps literal) deal with the devil/a demon, which is how they've managed to get the means to keep their territory monster free. The "old men" Toni mentioned, I suspect, are supernatural creatures of some kind themselves.

 

 

I like this theory!

[companionenvy]

Well, if it helps, I don't think the backstory on that is going to be a love-match, if it is true. More like an experiment. And I don't think Toni would necessarily be the bio-mama. Back in the day, it wouldn't have taken all that much for the BMOL to set up someone to get an...er...  sample from Dean, or else pay a one-night stand off to skip the birth control. I'm not sure that Dean was being all that responsible during S3, in any case.

Also, I'm almost always wrong about these things (although the initial baby idea wasn't mine, anyway). 

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Well, if it helps, I don't think the backstory on that is going to be a love-match, if it is true. More like an experiment. And I don't think Toni would necessarily be the bio-mama. Back in the day, it wouldn't have taken all that much for the BMOL to set up someone to get an...er...  sample from Dean, or else pay a one-night stand off to skip the birth control. I'm not sure that Dean was being all that responsible during S3, in any case.

Dean was living on borrowed time and raising Hell,  but I think he wouldn't have taken the chance on a spawn when he was on his way to Hell.

[goldy]

 

[Boopsahoy]

I'm thinking maybe the child gets taken and the British MOL can't find it and Toni needs to have Sam and Dean help her.

[Demented Daisy]

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Beyond that, if the BMOL are just scarily efficient monster-catchers without a lot of room for nuance, by the end of the season, if not sooner, there would really be no reason for the Winchesters and the other American hunters to implement something similar,

I mentioned this in the episode thread, but it wouldn't be possible.  Not the way the BMOL is doing it.

Presumably, they wiped out all the indigenous monsters first.  (Good luck doing that in the US -- 93k sq miles vs 3.8 million. HA!)  Then, they could put sigils on all the ports (land and sea variety), but unless they can create a spell that covers every inch of the border, monsters will enter and leave the US.

Frankly, they don't have enough manpower.

Also, one of the things that TPTB didn't take into account is the number of monsters that would just wash up on the shores.  Yes, the UK has beaches.  ;-)  It's a cute idea, but like usual, I'm not sure they really considered all the logistics.  (Would flying monsters, like dragons, really touch down at an airport?  Or would they land in the middle of a field?  Or on a cliff?  What about demons or angels or anything that can teleport?  Or do they only care about "monsters"?  Sounds racist to me.  Or would that be speciest?)

[mertensia]

Yeah, it's like Trump's Wall to Keep Mexicans Out: logistically impossible. How are you going to keep vamps from landing on a beach near, say, Ashland, Wisconsin after leaving from Canada?  How do you stop werewolves from walking up from Mexico into rural New Mexico?

Plus all they'd need is one bribeable person to deface a sigil or two.

[Demented Daisy]

Or a Reaper coyote to smuggle them in.  ;-)

[Binns]

5 hours ago, Boopsahoy said:

I'm thinking maybe the child gets taken and the British MOL can't find it and Toni needs to have Sam and Dean help her.

Ooooh I like this! Especially if it's a monster which sort of digs at their great system. 

[DittyDotDot]

12 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Oh, and I also think the Lady Toni's Kid = Secret!WinchesterSpawn theory got a (very) little support from Dean's "I get it. I mean, if I had kids, I wouldn't want them to be hunters." That's one of those comments that sounds like it could wind up being ironic/significant in retrospect. 

I certainly hope this isn't the direction the show goes in, but I got the feeling that Lady Toni having a kid is just to make her have a "reason" to act the way she does. She's a mom and feels she's protecting her kid with her actions. I think it's actually meant to be significant/ironic with Mary going forward. What questionable choices in the name of keeping her family safe?

12 hours ago, companionenvy said:

The British MoL have made a (perhaps literal) deal with the devil/a demon, which is how they've managed to get the means to keep their territory monster free. The "old men" Toni mentioned, I suspect, are supernatural creatures of some kind themselves.

As I said in the episode thread, my theory is that the British MoL don't actually know as much as they think they do. But, the "old men" being monsters would work too.

[bearcatfan]

5 hours ago, Boopsahoy said:

I'm thinking maybe the child gets taken and the British MOL can't find it and Toni needs to have Sam and Dean help her.

I like this theory, and considering that they made sure to remind us that she had a kid at home, obviously they are going to use that for some reason. Her needing Sam and Dean's help could be the impetus she needs to defy the BMOL.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, mertensia said:

Yeah, it's like Trump's Wall to Keep Mexicans Out: logistically impossible. How are you going to keep vamps from landing on a beach near, say, Ashland, Wisconsin after leaving from Canada?  How do you stop werewolves from walking up from Mexico into rural New Mexico?

Plus all they'd need is one bribeable person to deface a sigil or two.

It makes no sense at all that BMOL kept out demons unless they built a Devil's Trap around the island like in Wyoming in s2. But they can't have been the case because Crowley went back to Scotland to get his bones. 

Thus far this is so stupid.

[Aeryn13]

It just annoys me so much that they will do that stupid shit of Dean being easily taken down and saved by mommy twice in a row. I mean, the promo pics and promo have him captured and then Mary comes in with a gun and confronts Lady Deadeyes. Who also puts on those stupid brass knuckles as per the promo. Seriously, show, twice? 

My one hope is that Dean will get to be badass in ep 3 and really, starting from ep 3. I need to see some competency from the character so badly.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It just annoys me so much that they will do that stupid shit of Dean being easily taken down and saved by mommy twice in a row. I mean, the promo pics and promo have him captured and then Mary comes in with a gun and confronts Lady Deadeyes. Who also puts on those stupid brass knuckles as per the promo. Seriously, show, twice? 

My one hope is that Dean will get to be badass in ep 3 and really, starting from ep 3. I need to see some competency from the character so badly.

And to make is worse, Jensen has been spinning it as Dean going Taken on people.  Well I guess they meant just the speech making....I hope it actually results in him kicking ass and taking names.  So tired of it now.

[Aeryn13]

Yup, as soon as I saw the clips and promo pics that comparism rankled. Taken, my ass. Maybe that is true for Mary S. Winchester. And see, her middle name DOES start with an S. so they even gave us a helpful clue.

[goldy]

Supernatural Season 12 Episode 4 - Official Description

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2016/10/14/the-cw-teasers-supernaturals-off-the-grid-case-supergirls-alien-fight-club-and-jane-the-virgins-big-guest-stars/

SUPERNATURAL 12.04 “American Nightmare”: Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) investigate a case that leads them to a devout religious family that lives off the grid. The brothers realize that the parents are hiding a huge secret that could destroy them all. Meanwhile, Dean struggles to accept Mary’s (guest star Samantha Smith) latest decision. Davy Perez wrote the episode directed by John Showalter.

[Demented Daisy]

On 10/14/2016 at 5:58 AM, goldy said:

 

Hey, did Mary get a haircut?  (In other words, got rid of the wig.)  Looks good.  I wonder if Mary's going to get her own training montage, complete with hacking her hair off in a mirror.  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Hey, did Mary get a haircut?  (In other words, got rid of the wig.)  Looks good.  I wonder if Mary's going to get her own training montage, complete with hacking her hair off in a mirror.  ;-)

Heh, why not, cutting off the hair is always shortcut for "I am changed" on TV. ;)

[goldy]

Saw this on twitter - I didn't see any confirmation for this from a more reliable source so I'm not sure if its true or just a fan wishful thinking.

 

[Partly]

It just annoys me so much that they will do that stupid shit of Dean being easily taken down and saved by mommy twice in a row.

Since Knuckles already demonstrated they don't know about Mary and aren't looking for her, I'm thinking that it's not so much that Dean is incompetent and Mary has to save him, as it is that Mary is part of the plan if everything goes sideways.

Dean's favorite ploy is to use the misconception that he is egotistical and brash against the bad guys. He rushes in to a situation where he is outmatched and when his attack fails the bad guys are so busy gloating that they stopped Dean so easily (and ranting about how stupid he is) that that they never see the real attack coming.

Dean's lack of ego is one of my favorite things about him. He doesn't care who kills the bad guy, he doesn't care if he spends the entire fight losing, he doesn't care if he looks stupid or weak, all he cares about is that the bad guy is ganked in end.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Dean's lack of ego is one of my favorite things about him. He doesn't care who kills the bad guy, he doesn't care if he spends the entire fight losing, he doesn't care if he looks stupid or weak, all he cares about is that the bad guy is ganked in end.

But the problem is: he also doesn`t watch the show. I do and I care about these things. It kills my enjoyment. And it`s not like it got anything else going for it these days.

Speaking of, that promo sucks. Oh joy, the "uncouth glutton" joke with the food hanging out of his mouth like an idiot. And then of course the "sneaky" editing with the stupid and cutting right to Dean. Sigh. Not to mention, the trailer makes it seems as Sam has the lines, Mary has the badassery and Cas/Crowley/Lucifer have the plot. Dean gets the goofy comic relief, my least favourite character cliché.        

[Demented Daisy]

Sneak Peek at Spoiler TV 

Meanwhile, in the Batcave, Charlie flashback or hallucination?  Sure, if Sam is feeling particularly guilty again.  But Charlie as a ghost?  No thanks.  I wish the show would stop looking back and concentrate on moving forward.

That being said, I sure would like to know what Mrs. Tran is up to.

[Diane]

I'm sorry probably an unpopular opinion, but I didn't really like the character Charlie and really don't want her to come back in any form.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Speaking of, that promo sucks. Oh joy, the "uncouth glutton" joke with the food hanging out of his mouth like an idiot. And then of course the "sneaky" editing with the stupid and cutting right to Dean. Sigh. Not to mention, the trailer makes it seems as Sam has the lines, Mary has the badassery and Cas/Crowley/Lucifer have the plot. Dean gets the goofy comic relief, my least favourite character cliché.  

I saw that scene as a still on either twitter or tumblr and I thought it was a BTS still or maybe something from the gag reel. It looked to me like Jared is ready to break and Sam Smith looks like Sam Smith trying not to break. No one looks in character in that scene IMO.    Some things in the promos never make it on air as we saw quite a bit in s10.  I hope in this case it's true. I'm fucking tired of gross glutton Dean being written into the show at his age. 

And honestly, as much as I adore Jensen and think he makes 99% great acting choices, his penchant for "No Joke Is Too Cheap" is not always great for Dean's characterization. I wish he would stop doing that for the sake of a gag. Or that others override him at times.

22 minutes ago, Diane said:

I'm sorry probably an unpopular opinion, but I didn't really like the character Charlie and really don't want her to come back in any form.

I really only want Charlie back because she was good for Dean.  I don't really want super!Charlie back. I prefer Hacker!Charlie over Hunter!Charlie. 

I suspect if Charlie does come back, it will be to let Sam know that she doesn't blame him for her death. Dollars to donuts that's how it goes.

[Diane]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I saw that scene as a still on either twitter or tumblr and I thought it was a BTS still or maybe something from the gag reel. It looked to me like Jared is ready to break and Sam Smith looks like Sam Smith trying not to break. No one looks in character in that scene IMO.    Some things in the promos never make it on air as we saw quite a bit in s10.  I hope in this case it's true. I'm fucking tired of gross glutton Dean being written into the show at his age. 

And honestly, as much as I adore Jensen and think he makes 99% great acting choices, his penchant for "No Joke Is Too Cheap" is not always great for Dean's characterization. I wish he would stop doing that for the sake of a gag. Or that others override him at times.

I really only want Charlie back because she was good for Dean.  I don't really want super!Charlie back. I prefer Hacker!Charlie over Hunter!Charlie. 

I suspect if Charlie does come back, it will be to let Sam know that she doesn't blame him for her death. Dollars to donuts that's how it goes.

I don't want her back for any reason.

Also tired of Dean acting like he doesn't have manners.  Hated they way him and Sam ate the family dinner at Jodi's house. Ridiculous for to grown ass men to be that way. They know better, not funny anymore.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Diane

[MysteryGuest]

I agree about the eating habits.  We've watched these characters eat about a thousand meals throughout the past 11 years, and it makes no sense that their table manners have deteriorated to such a drastic degree.  Dean literally spit food out of his mouth onto their kitchen floor last season and just walked away from it.  I just don't believe they're quite the slobs some of those scenes portray.  I know they go for the joke, but it's usually not funny.

[rue721]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dean literally spit food out of his mouth onto their kitchen floor last season and just walked away from it.

Wha?! When was that?

....and is that food still there?

In Sam and Dean's defense, though, these men DID grow up with housekeeping service. So at least they came by their slob habits honestly! ;)

I do hate seeing chewed food in their mouths, though. There are two people in my family who have a lot of trouble eating, one from dementia and one from god knows, and it is REALLY hard to share a meal with them. I do it because I love them, though. Sorry Winchester brothers, I love you, too, but not THAT much.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Wha?! When was that?

....and is that food still there?

It was in the Valentine's Day episode when he came in apparently hungover with a hickey on his neck. He took out a box of Chinese food, took a bite of rice, spit it out AND put the container back in the refrigerator.

22 minutes ago, rue721 said:

In Sam and Dean's defense, though, these men DID grow up with housekeeping service. So at least they came by their slob habits honestly! ;)

Dean has always been shown to take great care of his car, his personal hygiene and once he moved into the bunker, his new home, his room and the kitchen especially.  Even when he's been shown to be sleeping in the car, he brushes his teeth.  Dean is not a slob, The only time he let things go was when  demon!Dean didn't take care of the car. because he just didn't care.  Dean has never been shown to be a slob except with these stupid eating things. He's also been shown to be a bit of a germophobe.

I'm gonna be really annoyed if they show Dean being a slob with Mary just so Mary can give him a dressing down for yucks.

Sam isn't shown eating much of anything but salads but he doesn't seem to be particularly slovenly either. 

Edited October 19, 2016 by catrox14

[GirlyGeek]

I'm late to this party but I'm leaning towards BMOL are a bigger issue than what's being said so far.  Perhaps the women we've seen don't have all the info and are acting on orders (grunts on the ground following commands without all the facts)...?  Maybe they're being fed the info and going after the 'enemies' based on orders alone?

I'm picturing kind of a Watcher's Council, directing the (obedient/not Buffy) Slayer(s)... (sorry for the Buffy reference for those that have no clue what I'm talking about)  :)

As for Mary, I'm stuck on one idea, based on the wording the Amara used:  "Dean, you gave me what I needed most. I want to do the same for you."  

*needed*  My brains been stuck on the idea that Mary will literally be needed for whatever is coming next/big bad/etc.

I'm going to wait a couple more episodes before deciding on how I feel about the BMOL.

But, I will reiterate- this show's season premiere really need to be 2-parters.  It rarely ever fails that the premiere episode is a lot of set up with no payoff and then we have to wait until episode 2 to get any kind of closure (after waiting all summer already).  Someone remind me next year to NOT watch episode 1 until the following week when I can watch them together!!

 

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, GirlyGeek said:

As for Mary, I'm stuck on one idea, based on the wording the Amara used:  "Dean, you gave me what I needed most. I want to do the same for you."  

*needed*  My brains been stuck on the idea that Mary will literally be needed for whatever is coming next/big bad/etc.

I've seen some theorizing on the interwebz about Mary being Lucifer's vessel since she is a Campbell.  I wouldn't put it past them.  I could see a situation where Lucifer convinces Mary to be the vessel to save Sam and she thinks it would be a way to make up for the deal she made in the first place.

[DittyDotDot]

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I agree about the eating habits.  We've watched these characters eat about a thousand meals throughout the past 11 years, and it makes no sense that their table manners have deteriorated to such a drastic degree.  Dean literally spit food out of his mouth onto their kitchen floor last season and just walked away from it.  I just don't believe they're quite the slobs some of those scenes portray.  I know they go for the joke, but it's usually not funny.

For me, it all depends on context. The Valentines episode last year didn't bother me at all. Seemed reasonable the way it was presented since Dean was obviously working with a bit of hangover. The episode in S9--I think it was Halt and Catch Fire--where Dean was a total glutton and had spaghetti hanging from his mouth, didn't make sense to me at all. Felt more like something for the gag reel and TPTB finding it funny and keeping it in the episode when they shouldn't have. So, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I see it in context. I mean, Tall Tales presented Dean as a slob and all, but it totally makes sense because of the structure of the episode.

17 hours ago, Diane said:

Also tired of Dean acting like he doesn't have manners.  Hated they way him and Sam ate the family dinner at Jodi's house. Ridiculous for to grown ass men to be that way. They know better, not funny anymore.

I thought the dinner at Jodi's was interesting because they've really never been part of family dinners like that, but I don't remember them having bad manners? Not that it didn't happen, I just mostly remember Jodi's, "If we can't talk about it, we shouldn't be doing it." 

18 hours ago, Diane said:

I'm sorry probably an unpopular opinion, but I didn't really like the character Charlie and really don't want her to come back in any form.

You know, I'm fine with Charlie in small doses. I liked her in a couple episodes where she fit into Sam and Dean's life organically, and then there's a couple where she was totally forced into it. But, I'm actually a tad interested in seeing someone else write Charlie other than Robbie Thompson. I think he was too enamored with his creation and didn't give her much nuance. Maybe someone else can give her a few more edges?

8 hours ago, GirlyGeek said:

As for Mary, I'm stuck on one idea, based on the wording the Amara used:  "Dean, you gave me what I needed most. I want to do the same for you."  

*needed*  My brains been stuck on the idea that Mary will literally be needed for whatever is coming next/big bad/etc.

That's an interesting point I hadn't really thought about. I mean, I noticed how the BMoL had no real answer for Mary because she was an unknown for them, but I hadn't considered it was part of why Amara actually brought her back. Interesting... .

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sam isn't shown eating much of anything but salads but he doesn't seem to be particularly slovenly either. 

I've seen the 'Sam only eats salads' or similar misconstruction around on the web a lot, but I've been paying attention lately...for Reasons...yeah, that's it.  Reasons....[ahem] anyway, just recently in S10 and S11, I've seen Sam eat a number of hamburgers and burritos in the car with Dean, he voted for pizza one night for dinner, ate steak in Girls, Girls, Girls...I'm sure there's more, but those are the examples I remember right off the top of my head.  My point is (I think) that, while I think Sam tries to eat more salads than Dean, (that part is true), probably in the interest of eating a little healthier, I wouldn't categorize it like he doesn't eat much of anything BUT salads.

I also remember seeing Sam brushing his teeth one morning after sleeping in the car in an early episode.

And we've seen both of them getting out of the shower at least once, so we know they bathe occasionally anyway.  Now, if TPTB want to show us more scenes of them getting clean - in the pure interest of scientific research of course - well, then I'd be okay with that.  

[Diane]

47 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I've seen the 'Sam only eats salads' or similar misconstruction around on the web a lot, but I've been paying attention lately...for Reasons...yeah, that's it.  Reasons....[ahem] anyway, just recently in S10 and S11, I've seen Sam eat a number of hamburgers and burritos in the car with Dean, he voted for pizza one night for dinner, ate steak in Girls, Girls, Girls...I'm sure there's more, but those are the examples I remember right off the top of my head.  My point is (I think) that, while I think Sam tries to eat more salads than Dean, (that part is true), probably in the interest of eating a little healthier, I wouldn't categorize it like he doesn't eat much of anything BUT salads.

I also remember seeing Sam brushing his teeth one morning after sleeping in the car in an early episode.

And we've seen both of them getting out of the shower at least once, so we know they bathe occasionally anyway.  Now, if TPTB want to show us more scenes of them getting clean - in the pure interest of scientific research of course - well, then I'd be okay with that.  

Actually I think Jared has said he for the longest time didn't like to eat on camera, so he would pick a salad.  Someone who has watched more convention videos or who has attended them maybe able to back me up on this.  But I think it was an actors choice early on.

[SueB]

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I saw that scene as a still on either twitter or tumblr and I thought it was a BTS still or maybe something from the gag reel. It looked to me like Jared is ready to break and Sam Smith looks like Sam Smith trying not to break. No one looks in character in that scene IMO.    Some things in the promos never make it on air as we saw quite a bit in s10.  I hope in this case it's true. I'm fucking tired of gross glutton Dean being written into the show at his age. 

And honestly, as much as I adore Jensen and think he makes 99% great acting choices, his penchant for "No Joke Is Too Cheap" is not always great for Dean's characterization. I wish he would stop doing that for the sake of a gag. Or that others override him at times.

I really only want Charlie back because she was good for Dean.  I don't really want super!Charlie back. I prefer Hacker!Charlie over Hunter!Charlie. 

I suspect if Charlie does come back, it will be to let Sam know that she doesn't blame him for her death. Dollars to donuts that's how it goes.

I'm nearly certain those "gross glutton Dean" is 100% Jensen ad lib versus the writers writing that in.  They may have a kitchen scene with food, but Jensen likes to go gross.  He said as much at one of the cons (talking specifically about the episode on Valentines day when he spits out the bad food).  I'm not a fan of it either but it really isn't a writer issue I think.

Random unqualified psychoanalysis options of why Jensen goes for that gag (just opinions);
- He genuinely thinks it's hilarious. It's a guy thing.  Many like gross body humor. It starts when they are young and their inner 12 year old comes out when they see the chance.
- Jensen thinks Dean would do that to make people laugh. He's being a clown -- maybe he's got a head canon that gross eating makes Sammy laugh
- Jensen thinks that when Dean is really happy or just doesn't give a shit (S10 Mark influence); he drops his manners
- Jensen likes to be gross just to be gross from time to time; because he's always 'pretty/handsome/gorgeous/etc'; i.e. a unconscious (or conscious) rebellion move against objectification.

 

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, Diane said:

Actually I think Jared has said he for the longest time didn't like to eat on camera, so he would pick a salad.  Someone who has watched more convention videos or who has attended them maybe able to back me up on this.  But I think it was an actors choice early on.

Yeah, Jared has said he usually chooses a salad, if they give him a choice, instead of something heavier because whatever you eat on-screen as an actor you keep eating it over and over and over for each take. A salad just doesn't leave you feeling over-stuffed and icky after.

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm nearly certain those "gross glutton Dean" is 100% Jensen ad lib versus the writers writing that in.  They may have a kitchen scene with food, but Jensen likes to go gross.  He said as much at one of the cons (talking specifically about the episode on Valentines day when he spits out the bad food).  I'm not a fan of it either but it really isn't a writer issue I think.

I don't think it's a writer issue either. I think it's Jensen kinda screwing around--like they all like to do from time to time--trying to make the crew laugh. I'm not sure he really is doing it thinking it would make the cut. Too bad the show doesn't get that somethings really should be kept for the gag reel.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I've seen the 'Sam only eats salads' or similar misconstruction around on the web a lot, b

Obviously, Sam eats more than salads. I was making a joke. Obviously, my joke failed. LOL . Alas, can't win em all. :) 

The only time Sam was shown to eat in a slovenly manner is in the dinner at Jody's which is just ridiculous. Dean and Sam may never have experienced family dinners but they eat in public.  Why would they become slovenly at Jody's dinner table when they are guests in her home? Not only that, Dean lived with Lisa and Ben for a year.  If he wasn't given to table manners before, which he was, Lisa didn't seem the type to tolerate poor dinner habits. And even if Dean was so nonfunctional because of grief and drinking at some point he got it together enough to be shown cooking and serving a family breakfast.   

To me, Dean and Sam were regressed so Jody could act like a mom to them. If a writer has to regress a character or ignore character traits, to fulfill other characters SL or plot points, that's poor writing. in my opinion. 

[Diane]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Obviously, Sam eats more than salads. I was making a joke. Obviously, my joke failed. LOL . Alas, can't win em all. :) 

The only time Sam was shown to eat in a slovenly manner is in the dinner at Jody's which is just ridiculous. Dean and Sam may never have experienced family dinners but they eat in public.  Why would they become slovenly at Jody's dinner table when they are guests in her home? Not only that, Dean lived with Lisa and Ben for a year.  If he wasn't given to table manners before, which he was, Lisa didn't seem the type to tolerate poor dinner habits. And even if Dean was so nonfunctional because of grief and drinking at some point he got it together enough to be shown cooking and serving a family breakfast.   

To me, Dean and Sam were regressed so Jody could act like a mom to them. If a writer has to regress a character or ignore character traits, to fulfill other characters SL or plot points, that's poor writing. in my opinion. 

This is where I agree, it's not that they were being slobs at Jody's table, just not grown ass men who have table manners.  They do, it was ridiculous and took me out of the scene, because I was wondering what the heck they were doing.  The hangover scene from the Valentines episode was kinda funny, I can accept that one.  But to eat like it's your first and last meal, well no that is not who they have been shown to be.

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, Diane said:

This is where I agree, it's not that they were being slobs at Jody's table, just not grown ass men who have table manners.  They do, it was ridiculous and took me out of the scene, because I was wondering what the heck they were doing.  The hangover scene from the Valentines episode was kinda funny, I can accept that one.  But to eat like it's your first and last meal, well no that is not who they have been shown to be.

I had to go re-watch that scene because I just didn't remember any slovenly behavior. And after refreshing my memory, to me, that scene seemed perfectly reasonable as written and acted. These are a couple of dudes who rarely sit down to meals like this. They weren't smacking their food or talking with their mouths full, but just really jazzed to have a real home-cooked meal, in my mind. And, yes, they do have a kitchen now, but it seems they still end up eating take out more often than they actually cook a full meal.

The scene kinda reminds me of how my bachelor cousins act at family dinners. ::shrugs::

[RulerofallIsurvey]

53 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

The scene kinda reminds me of how my bachelor cousins act at family dinners. ::shrugs::

Hee Hee...as I sit here typing this, I'm listening to a male co-worker smacking his food while eating lunch.  I don't think it's even conscious.  And this is a guy who has dinner every week with his Proper Southern Granny, so I'm pretty sure he knows correct table manners also.

IMO, their behavior at Jodi's was a little over the top - Sam groaning over  his food?  (I think I had to fan myself!)  So I can understand the criticism.  But they were just so darn cute, I can forgive them anything!  :)  And I have to agree with DDD, I think a lot of it is just typical guy stuff.  

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I had to go re-watch that scene because I just didn't remember any slovenly behavior. And after refreshing my memory, to me, that scene seemed perfectly reasonable as written and acted. These are a couple of dudes who rarely sit down to meals like this. They weren't smacking their food or talking with their mouths full, but just really jazzed to have a real home-cooked meal, in my mind. And, yes, they do have a kitchen now, but it seems they still end up eating take out more often than they actually cook a full meal.

They were shoveling food into their mouths as though they had never had a good meal in their lives. Dean did talk with his mouth full. He said "This is fun" with food in his mouth and then drank some wine. Sam is the one that really stood out because he's never been shown to eat that way. Sam says, "Oh chicken shaped like chicken".  So those buckets of take out that we know they eat was just chicken nuggets?  Dean cooks for them both in the bunker. It's been shown.  Sam made homemade chili himself when Dean got out of Purgatory. 

Back on topic. IMO Mary's return was an idea that existed before this episode was written.  Maybe it was all just a happy coincidence but I don't think so. I think Mary's resurrection was an idea in the room before the mid season finale and this episode was written with that goal in mind and secondarily a back door pilot for a possible Wayward Daughters spinoff. 

Why was the episode titled "Don't You Forget About Me"?  IMO, it was two fold. The vampire didn't forget Alex and moreover, the role of a mother.  Jody is the mother to the boys and Alex and Claire.  IMO the dinner scene exists to set up the kitchen scene where Dean says "Well, me and Sam could have used a little bit of that when we were growing up".   It seems innocuous enough but it always stood out to me because Dean has not really been in that mind set about Mary. I thought it was an odd line that kind of dropped out of nowhere but was dismissed as a musing of Dean's to show his support for Jody.

But now I confess I do wonder how Dean's historic role as the maternal/caretaker figure in the family is impacted by Mary's resurrection. I also wonder if they'll delve into Dean's parental/maternal role in Sam's life.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

IMO, their behavior at Jodi's was a little over the top - Sam groaning over  his food?  (I think I had to fan myself!)  So I can understand the criticism.  But they were just so darn cute, I can forgive them anything!  :)  And I have to agree with DDD, I think a lot of it is just typical guy stuff.  

It's stereotypical guy stuff.  Not all guys behave this way at the dinner table, even the burliest manliest males to ever maled have table manners and they LIKE having table manners.  Also,  Dean and Sam were raised by John, an ex Marine.  If they were made to address him with "Yes, Sir/No,Sir"  I'm thinking table manners were also part of their upbringing as much as it could be on the road.  Of course, as time goes by they fall out of some of those learned habits so they might leave a dish in the sink or Dean is too hungover to do the dishes. 

If Dean and Sam had been shown to behave this way on the regular I wouldn't object.  But they haven't.  Sure I laughed at their being uncomfortable with the sex talk and their reactions but the overall scene was inorganic to their characters. YMMV

[Diane]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They were shoveling food into their mouths as though they had never had a good meal in their lives. Dean did talk with his mouth full. He said "This is fun" with food in his mouth and then drank some wine. Sam is the one that really stood out because he's never been shown to eat that way. Sam says, "Oh chicken shaped like chicken".  So those buckets of take out that we know they eat was just chicken nuggets?  Dean cooks for them both in the bunker. It's been shown.  Sam made homemade chili himself when Dean got out of Purgatory. 

Back on topic. IMO Mary's return was an idea that existed before this episode was written.  Maybe it was all just a happy coincidence but I don't think so. I think Mary's resurrection was an idea in the room before the mid season finale and this episode was written with that goal in mind and secondarily a back door pilot for a possible Wayward Daughters spinoff. 

Why was the episode titled "Don't You Forget About Me"?  IMO, it was two fold. The vampire didn't forget Alex and moreover, the role of a mother.  Jody is the mother to the boys and Alex and Claire.  IMO the dinner scene exists to set up the kitchen scene where Dean says "Well, me and Sam could have used a little bit of that when we were growing up".   It seems innocuous enough but it always stood out to me because Dean has not really been in that mind set about Mary. I thought it was an odd line that kind of dropped out of nowhere but was dismissed as a musing of Dean's to show his support for Jody.

But now I confess I do wonder how Dean's historic role as the maternal/caretaker figure in the family is impacted by Mary's resurrection. I also wonder if they'll delve into Dean's parental/maternal role in Sam's life.

All I can say to this is I think you are giving the writers way way way to much credit.  But then YMMV.

[DittyDotDot]

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean cooks for them both in the bunker. It's been shown.  Sam made homemade chili himself when Dean got out of Purgatory.

That was my point, Dean cooks burgers and Sam makes chili from a can. This was a home-cooked meal with side dishes, not a quick sandwich or something heated up in a pan. It totally reminded me of my cousin who has a house, but is also a trucker and spends most of his time on the road. He just doesn't get a meal cooked for him very often, so when he does, he takes advantage of it. To me it was perfectly reasonable and seemed like a very true characterization for these two guys, but obviously miles vary.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, Diane said:

All I can say to this is I think you are giving the writers way way way to much credit.  But then YMMV.

Credit for what part?

 IMO, Dabb was in charge long before Carver was announced as leaving. I think Dabb was in charge of the story arc even before the mid-season finale.  I know it seems like these writers just throw out shit to see what sticks but IMO they set up resurrecting Mary long before the finale.

[Diane]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Credit for what part?

 IMO, Dabb was in charge long before Carver was announced as leaving. I think Dabb was in charge of the story arc even before the mid-season finale.  I know it seems like these writers just throw out shit to see what sticks but IMO they set up resurrecting Mary long before the finale.

I don't think they planned that dinner scene, with Mary coming back in mind that is all. But is JMO.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That was my point, Dean cooks burgers and Sam makes chili from a can. This was a home-cooked meal with side dishes, not a quick sandwich or something heated up in a pan. It totally reminded me of my cousin who has a house, but is also a trucker and spends most of his time on the road. He just doesn't get a meal cooked for him very often, so when he does, he takes advantage of it. To me it was perfectly reasonable and seemed like a very true characterization for these two guys, but obviously miles vary.

Dean cooks mac and cheese, egg dishes, burgers, the chili recipe from their family, which is what I think Sam made in s8.  If Dean makes a variety of things why does that variety end at a baked chicken, mashed potatoes and green beans?  Even if neither made such a meal, Dean very likely would have enjoyed a meal like this with Lisa and Ben at least ONCE in a year, surely.  I would think.  Maybe not Sam with Amelia since they were living in a hotel...until they shared that house.  Hmm not sure about Sam and Amelia.

Even allowing for the boys never having had this kind of family dinner even once in their lives is there something inherent in a quasi-family dinner that would trigger bad table manners and oafish behavior as guests in another person's home?

Also, I have brothers, nephews etc two of whom are quite challenged in the table manners department at times but when at a family dinner like this? They manage to keep their shit together even when the food is delicious. 

I understand the sentiment they were attempting to show here. That Sam and Dean never got that family dinner so I guess they just didn't know how to behave or became overly excited 12 year old boys out of the blue.  I didn't care for that aspect of the dinner scene and don't believe it to be indicative of them at this point of their lives.  

But with Mary back maybe they will just want Mom to take care of them to finally have that which they never had.  Meh.  Who knows.

29 minutes ago, Diane said:

I don't think they planned that dinner scene, with Mary coming back in mind that is all. But is JMO.

I gotcha.  Maybe someone could ask the boys at the convention this weekend how that went. Although that's probably a question for the writers.