Spoilers, Speculation & All Things Media!

[westwingfan]

1 hour ago, madmaverick said:

I never thought they were going to kill her outright in the S8 finale and wasn't entirely convinced they would have had her definitively dead in any S9.  I think they'd always want to leave the door open... just in case.  Castle thinking Beckett dead but her not actually being dead is a bit of a tropy storyline, but honestly in the hands of some good writers (which was a bit questionable), it could have been an interesting storyline dramatically, if allowed to pack real emotional weight.  Nathan would have portrayed a gutted Castle well (finale x 10), and if they could still have had their happy sunset ending in the end...

 

This is an extract from an interview with NF shortly after "XX" aired.

“One of the things that Terence and Alexi are really big on, and I agree, is they don’t consider Castle to be a drama,” Fillion said. “It’s never been much of a drama; it’s far more a comedy with dramatic and heartfelt moments. And they wanted to bring it back to a time when it was funny, when it was great, when it was the lighthearted show that everybody fell in love with.”

It's hard to reconcile this with what they appeared to actually wanted to deliver in the finale to set up S9.

I'm curious to hear Ausiello's explanation, because if S8 had ended with the cliff hanger with Beckett supposedly seriously wounded and carted off to hospital with Castle, I wonder who actually arranges things so that the others think that she has died, and what the motive is for taking this action. The showrunners claimed that ALL loose ends would be resolved in the finale so she shouldn't need to go into Witsec pending being a witness at a trial, which is the most obvious reason to fake her death, although Mason Wood isn't actually killed off from what I remember, so I guess there could still be a trial pending, but that would mean that not ALL the loose ends had been tidied up. My suspicious mind has the showrunners being devious and hoping that by not actually killing Beckett off more people would have stuck with S9 because they might have thought there was chance that Stana might reappear at some point, even though she had been dumped by the Studio, in the same way that Beckett has been used as a carrot for much of S8, when to all intents and purposes the original premise of the show that enticed many to watch in the first place had already been discarded in favour of Castle P.I. and his new sidekick and super sleuth daughter in readiness for a Beckettless S9.

Edited May 23, 2016 by westwingfan

[westwingfan]

12 minutes ago, Noggin said:

I do not see the point of this story diversion, Stana was fired, did they really believe she might be enticed back if they decided that might be the way to go, or did they intend to use this as a possible hook to lure Stana/Beckett viewers back to season 9 teasing a chance she might return.

I was in the process of typing my post above when your's popped up, we obviously think alike as conspiracy theorists. LOL

My "Hunt and Peck" style is a little slow.

[KaveDweller]

Saying Beckett was presumed dead by all, doesn't mean the audience would know that in the beginning of S9. Maybe they would have us think shes dead too and just surprised us with her returning in a series finale (assuming Stana agreed). It would have been pretty terrible either way. The only thing that redeems it if Beckett was abducted and not choosing to let Castle think she was dead. But even that would have sucked.

I'm working on convincing myself the shooting didn't really happen, it was just a what if ending we were shown, because they really should have just shown the flashforward once they knew they were cancelled. I can't imagine how awful the last 20 seconds would have been if they were renewed.

Count me in on those having board withdrawal.

[CheshireCat]

34 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

Saying Beckett was presumed dead by all, doesn't mean the audience would know that in the beginning of S9. Maybe they would have us think shes dead too and just surprised us with her returning in a series finale (assuming Stana agreed).

Well, yeah, since they didn't have the actress and everyone on the show was supposed to believe she's dead, there would have been no viable way of letting the audience know more than the characters do, would there?

So, unless Castle would have found out in the S9 premiere that there is a chance Beckett survived, the audience would have assumed Beckett was dead and the plan to make people watch wouldn't have worked, really. And if Castle had found out in the premiere that there was a chance Beckett was still alive, there is no way they could have done anything else other than making him try to find her for 13 episodes.

[KaveDweller]

1 hour ago, CheshireCat said:

Well, yeah, since they didn't have the actress and everyone on the show was supposed to believe she's dead, there would have been no viable way of letting the audience know more than the characters do, would there?

So, unless Castle would have found out in the S9 premiere that there is a chance Beckett survived, the audience would have assumed Beckett was dead and the plan to make people watch wouldn't have worked, really. And if Castle had found out in the premiere that there was a chance Beckett was still alive, there is no way they could have done anything else other than making him try to find her for 13 episodes.

They could have done it if they filmed something with Stana before she left. It makes me think of General Hospital when Jonathan Jackson left the show. They killed off his character in a fire, let all the appropriate actors have big grief scenes, and then after spending several episodes on people's reactions to his death ended an episode with a shot of the actor locked in some kind of prison banging on the walls for help. Everyone on the show believed he was dead and they didn't address him being alive or show him again for months, when they decided to recast the actor. So they could have done something like that, but only if the planned it.

I'm guessing the Castle writers didn't really have that much of a plan though. They were going to end with them both bleeding out on the floor and were still discussing whether Beckett would really be dead or not. 

It's kind of surprising though, because didn't they say they wanted S9 to be less serial?

[McManda]

Quote

They could have done it if they filmed something with Stana before she left. It makes me think of General Hospital when Jonathan Jackson left the show. They killed off his character in a fire, let all the appropriate actors have big grief scenes, and then after spending several episodes on people's reactions to his death ended an episode with a shot of the actor locked in some kind of prison banging on the walls for help. Everyone on the show believed he was dead and they didn't address him being alive or show him again for months, when they decided to recast the actor.

I feel like this is the only way they could have done it. It's one thing for the characters to believe another character dead, but they've got to let the audience in on if she is or isn't. They couldn't have gone through with everyone grieving and adjusting and moving on and then, all of a sudden, decide in a big reveal in episode 20 that - surprise, not dead! You can get away with jerking your characters around. I think there's less leeway in jerking around your audience.

I'm not sure I believe that they would have only fake-killed Beckett. I mean, I do because if they're going to go that story route it's what makes more sense than actually killing her, but given the way the whole saga unfolded I think it was more likely that they just kill her and wash their hands of it. Honestly, I'm kind of relieved we don't have to find out (but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in what "insider info" TVLine has waiting in the wings).

[Driad]

12 hours ago, Annec said:

I think they really missed an opportunity to delve deeper into why Rick was so fascinated with death.

If someone writes fan fiction on this theme, please post a link here.  Most Castle fanfic seems to be romance, OK for those who enjoy it but not my taste.  

[GoGiants]

2 hours ago, McManda said:

I'm not sure I believe that they would have only fake-killed Beckett. I mean, I do because if they're going to go that story route it's what makes more sense than actually killing her, but given the way the whole saga unfolded I think it was more likely that they just kill her and wash their hands of it. Honestly, I'm kind of relieved we don't have to find out (but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in what "insider info" TVLine has waiting in the wings).

I still don't see any good options for restructuring the show that wouldn't have left the long shadow of Beckett hanging over it and involve full lobotomies for every character (to complete the character damage of recent seasons!). Whether S9 had a dead or missing Beckett, if the rest of the characters were to behave even remotely normally, there would have to have been significant grief and mourning. S8's writing doesn't lead me to believe that would have happened. 

Before the cancellation was announced, I was leaning towards Beckett actually dying and then S9 carrying on with S8 style storytelling (i.e. ignore every consequence related to her death all season long). 

I too am glad all these conversations are hypothetical at this point. TV line is definitely picking over the bones of the show for site traffic. I'll admit that it is interesting to hear whatever chatter they were privy to, since no one from the show seems willing or able to talk. 

[madmaverick]

2 hours ago, Driad said:

If someone writes fan fiction on this theme, please post a link here.  Most Castle fanfic seems to be romance, OK for those who enjoy it but not my taste.  

Must have read some on that theme sometime but can't recall off the top of my head.  You can try checking out the lists at castlefanfics tumblr or asking there directly.

The premise of Beckett being dead as a ruse has some good fanfics too, but of course the kind of extended angst that comes with that is much harder to do on the show itself.  Unless Castle somehow found out Beckett wasn't really dead after an episode or two, but was instructed not to go find her for the time being for her own safety.

1 hour ago, GoGiants said:

TV line is definitely picking over the bones of the show for site traffic. I'll admit that it is interesting to hear whatever chatter they were privy to, since no one from the show seems willing or able to talk. 

And even parceling out their crumbs into two. ;)  I'll still take what they delve out with a grain of salt because it's just chatter from whatever source.  I think the showrunners were just pondering their options for S9 at best.

Quote

 

TV Grim Reaper ‏@TVGrimReaper  2h2 hours ago

Memo to the crazy: It was money. It's always money.

TV Grim Reaper ‏@TVGrimReaper  2h2 hours ago

TV Grim Reaper Retweeted Beckstle

The crazy apparently believe social media had something to do with #Castle's fate.

 

I think it was about the money.

[BellyLaughter]

Yep - it all boiled down to the old profit and loss sheet!! 

[westwingfan]

32 minutes ago, madmaverick said:

Must have read some on that theme sometime but can't recall off the top of my head.  You can try checking out the lists at castlefanfics tumblr or asking there directly.

The premise of Beckett being dead as a ruse has some good fanfics too, but of course the kind of extended angst that comes with that is much harder to do on the show itself.  Unless Castle somehow found out Beckett wasn't really dead after an episode or two, but was instructed not to go find her for the time being for her own safety.

And even parceling out their crumbs into two. ;)  I'll still take what they delve out with a grain of salt because it's just chatter from whatever source.  I think the showrunners were just pondering their options for S9 at best.

I think it was about the money.

ABC Studios appeared to think that by getting rid of Stana and Tamala they could still produce a viable show, hence the news that the rest of the cast had been signed up, but presumably ABC Entertainment then decided that the numbers still didn't add up and weren't prepared to offer a renewal even with the reduced costs. Without all the drama of the past few weeks it would have been easy to believe that was all that happened, but given how all the prediction sites had Castle heavily tipped for renewal right up until the last moment it's hard not to think that the furore following Stana and Tamala's dismissal didn't play a tinsy winsy part in ABC Entertainment's decision, and even though not a direct impact on the money it's possible some of the ad buyers might have expressed concerns with all the "Not watching without Beckett" comments and polls, because the ratings for S8 could hardly be used as a selling point with such a drastic upheaval of the cast planned for S9, and "Conviction" looked more profitable at the end of the day.

Ausiello admits that he was gobsmacked by the late announcement of Castle's cancellation, we know TV Line, like several of the sites, has contacts within the various shows for their spoilers, but did he only have sources within ABC Studios, which would explain why he and everyone else appear to have been blindsided by the apparent about face, when in fact ABC Entertainment were never seriously contemplating renewing Castle.

[Zaffy]

I can only assume they had a big time jump in their minds. Like starting season 9 two to three  years after Beckett's deah. So Castle would had mourned enough and be ready to move on. Maybe dedicate the first episode or two to Castle deciding to "live" again and find fun in life by re-opening his PI office or working with the Police again, blah blah blah.  That would be the "light" version.

I cannot think of a "drama" version taking place just after Beckett's death cause a) Castle never was  strong in drama b) Fillion cannot act drama (or to be fair,  anyone else from this cast)

In any case this was a mess. Well it can happen with shows that have a long run. We will left wondering though if this occurred because they run out of ideas or because the two leads couldn't stand of each other. The "Stanic won't be back for a possible season 9" makes me believe the later. And that makes me a tad angry, ruining a show cause people who get paid VERY well cannot act as professionals. There are worse examples of course (Good Wife anyone?)
 

[Julia]

17 hours ago, westwingfan said:

This is an extract from an interview with NF shortly after "XX" aired.

“One of the things that Terence and Alexi are really big on, and I agree, is they don’t consider Castle to be a drama,” Fillion said. “It’s never been much of a drama; it’s far more a comedy with dramatic and heartfelt moments. And they wanted to bring it back to a time when it was funny, when it was great, when it was the lighthearted show that everybody fell in love with.”

It's a little hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that Nathan Fillion genuinely believes the difference between the universally beloved first two seasons and what came later is there was more comedy back then. Love slapstick henpecked knockabout daddy Castle or hate him, he started appearing in season 3 and his presence only increasied (as the audience dropped) over time.

[madmaverick]

37 minutes ago, Julia said:

It's a little hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that Nathan Fillion genuinely believes the difference between the universally beloved first two seasons and what came later is there was more comedy back then. Love slapstick henpecked knockabout daddy Castle or hate him, he started appearing in season 3 and his presence only increasied (as the audience dropped) over time.

I don't think you can conclude that is what Nathan believes simply from what's quoted from him here.  I never make too much of what any actor says about a show because naturally what they say also factors in the PR angle and they generally want to paint their product in a more positive light.  I won't quote what Stana said at the beginning of the season about Caskett being on a cosmic journey or something like that.  I will say that for me personally, the high stakes melodrama/every growing conspiracy that Marlowe seemed so keen on from around S3 was not my cup of tea and did not play to the show's original strengths and charm in my opinion. 

[KaveDweller]

8 hours ago, westwingfan said:

ABC Studios appeared to think that by getting rid of Stana and Tamala they could still produce a viable show, hence the news that the rest of the cast had been signed up, but presumably ABC Entertainment then decided that the numbers still didn't add up and weren't prepared to offer a renewal even with the reduced costs. Without all the drama of the past few weeks it would have been easy to believe that was all that happened, but given how all the prediction sites had Castle heavily tipped for renewal right up until the last moment it's hard not to think that the furore following Stana and Tamala's dismissal didn't play a tinsy winsy part in ABC Entertainment's decision, and even though not a direct impact on the money it's possible some of the ad buyers might have expressed concerns with all the "Not watching without Beckett" comments and polls, because the ratings for S8 could hardly be used as a selling point with such a drastic upheaval of the cast planned for S9, and "Conviction" looked more profitable at the end of the day.

Ausiello admits that he was gobsmacked by the late announcement of Castle's cancellation, we know TV Line, like several of the sites, has contacts within the various shows for their spoilers, but did he only have sources within ABC Studios, which would explain why he and everyone else appear to have been blindsided by the apparent about face, when in fact ABC Entertainment were never seriously contemplating renewing Castle.

Yeah, I agree. I don't think it was cancelled because of the Twitter campaign, but I think they may have looked at the drama and thought the risk wasn't worth it, or that the money from the "reduced cost" show wasn't enough to deal with the drama

I think if they knew they could get more money off it they wouldn't have cared. But they clearly didn't think that. 

I wish I knew Ausiello's source about why he was so surprised about it.

[break21]

6 hours ago, Zaffy said:

I can only assume they had a big time jump in their minds. Like starting season 9 two to three  years after Beckett's deah. So Castle would had mourned enough and be ready to move on. Maybe dedicate the first episode or two to Castle deciding to "live" again and find fun in life by re-opening his PI office or working with the Police again, blah blah blah.  That would be the "light" version.

I cannot think of a "drama" version taking place just after Beckett's death cause a) Castle never was  strong in drama b) Fillion cannot act drama (or to be fair,  anyone else from this cast)

In any case this was a mess. Well it can happen with shows that have a long run. We will left wondering though if this occurred because they run out of ideas or because the two leads couldn't stand of each other. The "Stanic won't be back for a possible season 9" makes me believe the later. And that makes me a tad angry, ruining a show cause people who get paid VERY well cannot act as professionals. There are worse examples of course (Good Wife anyone?)
 

My opinion, Fillion can do drama.  The interrogation scene was one of the best on the show.  The problem is Castle was never a straight-up drama.  If they wanted to continue, Beckett would have had to have been alive (witness protection?) and Castle would have had to know it.  You can't really have a dramedy if Castle believes his wife is dead.  He would have been so devastated the show would have become a drama and that's not Castle.  Fillion himself said Castle is basically a comedy at heart.  You can't do that if Beckett is believed to be dead.

[CheshireCat]

2 hours ago, Julia said:

It's a little hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that Nathan Fillion genuinely believes the difference between the universally beloved first two seasons and what came later is there was more comedy back then. Love slapstick henpecked knockabout daddy Castle or hate him, he started appearing in season 3 and his presence only increasied (as the audience dropped) over time.

I think what that statement proves is that Hawley and Winter really didn't seem to understand what it was that brought the humor to the show. Because if you look at the episodes, you can see that they were trying to recreate what it used to be. But it wasn't funny because Castle was goofy, it was funny because of wit and banter and because they were smart about it. The humor was classy and smart and came naturally and wasn't blunt. And if Hawley and Winter wanted to recreate the humor of early seasons and S8 humor is what we got then clearly, they didn't understand why it was funny.

[MaryM47]

More comments from TV critic Matt Roush

Quote

 

Confused By Castle’s Hasty End

Question: The finale of Castle had to be the most ambiguous that I've ever seen. Can you explain it to me? Did Castle and Beckett both die and have a "mutual" dream or did they both survive being shot at point-blank range? — Wallace

Matt Roush: The only explanation for that absurd climax is that the producers had initially planned to leave both of its stars in jeopardy—and given all of the publicity about Stana Katic not returning, this hardly qualifies as a cliffhanger—and because they weren’t positive about being renewed (quite rightly), they filmed this tacked-on ending that suggested both of them somehow survived the shooting and went on to a happily-ever-after fairy-tale family life. The disconnect between the bloody finish and the gauzy epilogue was so extreme that maybe you’re onto something. Maybe it’s better to read that last scene as a what-if from the afterlife. Either way, what a mess.

 

[Cyranetta]

The Criminal Element blog does a retrospective:

 

http://www.criminalelement.com/blogs/2016/05/the-top-10-castle-episodes-of-all-time

[westwingfan]

This is what I got from Ausiello's live streaming, following his tease in his latest Ask Ausiello article

Apparently one of the scenarios was that everyone would think that Beckett was dead but in fact she would be overseas on an undercover mission, there would be a two year time bump and Castle would still be in mourning but he would be gradually brought back into the fold to start working on cases again.

Edited May 24, 2016 by westwingfan

[WendyCR72]

2 minutes ago, westwingfan said:

Apparently one of the scenarios was that everyone would think that Beckett was dead but in fact she would be overseas on an undercover mission, there would be a two year time bump and Castle would still be in mourning but he would be gradually brought back into the fold to start working on cases again.

As one who is usually "whatever" about this show, this would have tipped the scales for even me to REALLY hate Beckett. Granted, we don't have the context and never will. But on face value, it is extremely selfish and just cruel to do to someone you claim to love. And I get Castle also did it to her, and she forgave him.

But after the crap of LokSat, it just seems too much.

[ZingerCaskett]

1 hour ago, Cyranetta said:

The Criminal Element blog does a retrospective:

 

http://www.criminalelement.com/blogs/2016/05/the-top-10-castle-episodes-of-all-time

I wish the author had proofread this....Got a few details wrong.   Sigh.    The honeymoon episode was in Season 7 (said Season six in one part of the article, 7 at the end.)    The Time Traveler told them that they have 3 kids, not 4.    Rick fathered 4 kids counting Alexis, but had 3 with Kate.   If you are gonna do articles like this...for God's sake either WATCH the episodes or have an actual fan proofread.  

[femmefan1946]

Because municipal police forces supply undercover officers to work overseas all the time.

Actually, why does the CIA have a building in NYC to begin with? Aren't they supposed to deal only with foreign threats? The FBI is your federal police force isn't it?

[westwingfan]

1 minute ago, WendyCR72 said:

As one who is usually "whatever" about this show, this would have tipped the scales for even me to REALLY hate Beckett.

They really had their creative hats on in the writers' room when they were working on ways to write Beckett off the show, didn't they, or was it dunces hats? LOL

[westwingfan]

4 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

As one who is usually "whatever" about this show, this would have tipped the scales for even me to REALLY hate Beckett. Granted, we don't have the context and never will. But on face value, it is extremely selfish and just cruel to do to someone you claim to love. And I get Castle also did it to her, and she forgave him.

But after the crap of LokSat, it just seems too much.

Surely the character who this would have been cruellest on would have been Beckett's Dad, would it have made sense that she would have agreed to this subterfuge knowing the effect it was likely to have on him. Killing her off would have been bad enough, although I guess Beckett's Dad was hardly likely to feature at all in a S9 anyway.

[WendyCR72]

1 minute ago, westwingfan said:

Surely the character who this would have been cruellest on would have been Beckett's Dad

Poor Jim Beckett. I forgot about him completely. But, yeah. This is one relationship that really threw a gutter ball on the show. Sadly.

[turnitwayup]

So Beckett is #5 on a mojo list for top 10 lead female drama tv characters.

[westwingfan]

1 minute ago, WendyCR72 said:

Poor Jim Beckett. I forgot about him completely. But, yeah. This is one relationship that really threw a gutter ball on the show. Sadly.

Given how Castle started off as this light hearted cop dramedy with an epic love story at its heart it's fascinating how the final season seems to have made so many of the characters unlikeable for many of the audience. Some disliked Beckett because of her selfishness and actions towards Castle, some didn't like Castle because he was acting too much like a clown and the humour had sunk to frat boy quality, some didn't like Alexis acquiring super sleuth skills. Some of these traits began to materialise in the previous season but S8 turned them into virtual caricatures of themselves, and I still lay most of the blame for this deterioration on the showrunners as they didn't have to write things that way, even if there were BTS issues that compicated things. They admitted in one of their earliest interviews that they had pretty much exhausted ideas for the COTW after 150 episodes (probably explained why they weren't employed on L&O SVU with 389 episodes, or NCIS with 305) and that they found a happily married couple boring.

[CheshireCat]

38 minutes ago, femmefan1946 said:

Because municipal police forces supply undercover officers to work overseas all the time.

Actually, why does the CIA have a building in NYC to begin with? Aren't they supposed to deal only with foreign threats? The FBI is your federal police force isn't it?

The more pressing question would be - why does the CIA have operatives to begin with?

[femmefan1946]

I have a couple of acquaintances who are 'spies', in that they work for CSIS, the Canadian Intelligence department. From what they tell me and from what I learned working at the RCMP ( which does domestic intelligence) it's a pretty dull desk job. Having several languages helps. Of course, I suppose if they told me anymore..... and I only had Secret clearance. They are married, met on the job.

[KaveDweller]

2 hours ago, westwingfan said:

This is what I got from Ausiello's live streaming, following his tease in his latest Ask Ausiello article

Apparently one of the scenarios was that everyone would think that Beckett was dead but in fact she would be overseas on an undercover mission, there would be a two year time bump and Castle would still be in mourning but he would be gradually brought back into the fold to start working on cases again.

An undercover mission? So not even forced into witness protection, just randomly becoming a CIA agent or something? I am SO glad the writers didn't get a chance to try that. That makes season 8 Beckett look about 1,000 times better. Also, how the hell would that even work with Stana not on the show?

But Ausiello says that was one of the scenarios, so that could be something that the writers just considered as an option and not the definite plan. Ausiello could be playing up the angle for clicks.

1 hour ago, turnitwayup said:

So Beckett is #5 on a mojo list for top 10 lead female drama tv characters.

Is that a new ranking? It's weird that it mostly shows clips from the pilot, and one from season 4. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by KaveDweller

[McManda]

Quote

Quote

Apparently one of the scenarios was that everyone would think that Beckett was dead but in fact she would be overseas on an undercover mission, there would be a two year time bump and Castle would still be in mourning but he would be gradually brought back into the fold to start working on cases again.

As one who is usually "whatever" about this show, this would have tipped the scales for even me to REALLY hate Beckett. Granted, we don't have the context and never will. But on face value, it is extremely selfish and just cruel to do to someone you claim to love. And I get Castle also did it to her, and she forgave him.

But after the crap of LokSat, it just seems too much.

Not to mention ... this was the whole issue with the first part of season 8, except no one thought Beckett was dead. They (Castle included) just thought Castle and Beckett's marriage was dead. Could they not come up with any storyline other than a someone pretending something for the sake of someone else and leaving everyone else they care about out in the cold?

For me, the only way a Beckett-less season would have worked is if everyone knew why she was gone and supported her in it. Don't kill her, don't have her lying/hiding/pretending. If we were going to get season 9-part 2 ... I'm even more glad we don't have to suffer through it.

[GoGiants]

17 hours ago, madmaverick said:

And even parceling out their crumbs into two. ;)  I'll still take what they delve out with a grain of salt because it's just chatter from whatever source.  I think the showrunners were just pondering their options for S9 at best.

Only a grain of salt? ;) I take everything TV Line and sites like it write with a whole shaker worth! Lol

I agree it was probably early days for the S9 plotline when everything went down. I imagine what we've heard from TV Line is only one of a few possibilities for S9. Heck, knowing TV Line's MO,  they may even be going with the most sensational S9 rumors and speculation, just to wring a few last clicks out of Castle. I know it's all in the past now and I do recognize the full story will never be out there. But when something blows up as spectacularly as Castle did, it's hard not to be curious. 

I felt like some of my S8 comments on the board got a tad repetitive over the months. I think I am now going to be repetitively stating that I'm glad I don't have to see the S9 vision play out on screen. Please stop me when I reach that point! Lol

Edited May 24, 2016 by GoGiants

[CheshireCat]

11 minutes ago, McManda said:

Not to mention ... this was the whole issue with the first part of season 8, except no one thought Beckett was dead.

And kind of of the S7 premiere too... Castle gone, everyone thinking he's dead (even Beckett said that she didn't think she'd ever see him again), turns out he was recruited for a secret mission overseas... (Does that mean it was Winter's idea since Hawley was gone during S7 and "Sleeper"?)

Edited May 24, 2016 by CheshireCat

[Zaffy]

7 hours ago, break21 said:

My opinion, Fillion can do drama.  The interrogation scene was one of the best on the show.  

He was amazing in this scene indeed. But all the rest of his drama scenes in Castle were awful.. imho..

[McManda]

Quote

And kind of of the S7 premiere too... Castle gone, everyone thinking he's dead (even Beckett said that she didn't think she'd ever see him again), turns out he was recruited for a secret mission overseas... (Does that mean it was Winter's idea since Hawley was gone during S7 and "Sleeper"?)

At least they tried to explain that away with the amnesia. I mean, that storyline was dumb the way it ended, but it's hard to be angry if the character doing the lying and hiding claims that even he doesn't remember. Beckett doesn't get the same sympathy because she willingly let people she cares about think she doesn't care about them. For her to do it once was stupid, for her to do it a second time - only this time she would have let people believe she was dead - would be too much.

And it looks like there will be more Castle ... in the form of more Heat books. One (High Heat) is slated for an October release and the other (Heat Storm [... have they already done a Heat/Storm crossover?] for spring 2017. Chances are these have been in development since before Castle got cancelled, but still. Interesting nonetheless. Also ... speculation about the dedication and/or the acknowledgments?

Edited May 25, 2016 by McManda

[FlickerToAFlame]

The biggest issue, had they gone this route, is that there's no payoff if Stana doesn't come back at the end. And, no matter how classy Stana seems to be, I can't see anybody stepping foot on a set after being treated like she was. 

My guess is they just would have gone the "easy" route and killed her off. 

[madmaverick]

2 hours ago, GoGiants said:

Only a grain of salt? ;) I take everything TV Line and sites like it write with a whole shaker worth! Lol

I agree it was probably early days for the S9 plotline when everything went down. I imagine what we've heard from TV Line is only one of a few possibilities for S9. Heck, knowing TV Line's MO,  they may even be going with the most sensational S9 rumors and speculation, just to wring a few last clicks out of Castle.

Consider me corrected and let me join you with the shaker. ;)  Oh, I don't doubt they try to go with the most sensational spin and language possible just to get more clicks and fan frenzy.  I think they are masters in that league in terms of TV news outlets.  ;)  Ausiello figured he was onto a money maker with his particular 'style' of spoilering.

1 hour ago, McManda said:

And it looks like there will be more Castle ... in the form of more Heat books. One (High Heat) is slated for an October release and the other (Heat Storm [... have they already done a Heat/Storm crossover?] for spring 2017. Chances are these have been in development since before Castle got cancelled, but still. Interesting nonetheless. Also ... speculation about the dedication and/or the acknowledgments?

They've been writing the Heat/Rook relationship better in the books than Caskett have been on TV for several books now, and I look forward to seeing what they do with married Heat/Rook.

[oberon55]

14 minutes ago, FlickerToAFlame said:

The biggest issue, had they gone this route, is that there's no payoff if Stana doesn't come back at the end. And, no matter how classy Stana seems to be, I can't see anybody stepping foot on a set after being treated like she was. 

My guess is they just would have gone the "easy" route and killed her off. 

Unless they intended to use the "seven years later" scene in next years finale.

[KaveDweller]

3 hours ago, McManda said:

Not to mention ... this was the whole issue with the first part of season 8, except no one thought Beckett was dead. They (Castle included) just thought Castle and Beckett's marriage was dead. Could they not come up with any storyline other than a someone pretending something for the sake of someone else and leaving everyone else they care about out in the cold?

I think the writers have firmly established that no, they can't come up with any better anything. Otherwise they would have done it already.

1 hour ago, oberon55 said:

Unless they intended to use the "seven years later" scene in next years finale.

Then why not just have Beckett still be Captain of the twelfth, but comically offscreen in every episode? 

With the overseas undercover thing they'd still need her back to do a reunion scene where everyone finds out she's alive. They can't have Castle find out, never show him talk to her, and then just cut to the seven years later thing. I mean I guess they could. But that would be even worse than showing Caskett shot in the kitchen and just cutting to seven years later.

I continue to be surprised at how things could have kept getting worse.

[metaphor]

6 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

I continue to be surprised at how things could have kept getting worse.

I think this entire debacle actually cast a new light on the way the writers shaped S8. Putting aside Beckett's previous character growth and development and increasingly reducing her screentime and relevance were supposed to help pave the way for having the character depart, and make it acceptable for the show to go along on its merry way with the writer solving crimes without his muse. While I really tried to give it a chance as it was airing, I think S8 was and this would-be S9 (with a Beckett who'd gladly run off on some mission while letting Castle and everyone else who loves her mourn her, no less!) would have been such a betrayal of the previous 7 seasons of the show. I'm just so grateful this purported storyline never came to be. 

And count me in among those who remain eager to read about married Heat/Rook. I wasn't too impressed with the most recent dedication (would have appreciated something fresh instead of a rehash of Castle's Hollander's Woods speech), but I'm definitely looking forward to the dedications/acknowledgements up ahead. Wouldn't it be great if one (or both) of the the upcoming books made some reference to Lily? 

[Annec]

22 hours ago, madmaverick said:

Must have read some on that theme sometime but can't recall off the top of my head.  You can try checking out the lists at castlefanfics tumblr or asking there directly.

The premise of Beckett being dead as a ruse has some good fanfics too, but of course the kind of extended angst that comes with that is much harder to do on the show itself.  Unless Castle somehow found out Beckett wasn't really dead after an episode or two, but was instructed not to go find her for the time being for her own safety.

And even parceling out their crumbs into two. ;)  I'll still take what they delve out with a grain of salt because it's just chatter from whatever source.  I think the showrunners were just pondering their options for S9 at best.

I think it was about the money.

I don't doubt that the final decision was about money but I do think that the online backlash made ABC seriously consider the impact on future syndication profits.  I know as someone who owns previous seasons on dvd, I don't plan on buying 8 and would have to quit re-watching because it would all have been a big joke.

I also strongly question that firing Katic was the only way to make the show profitable.  There were plenty of other options.  For me, it all just fits too nicely with the reported bts issues and the pushing of Castle PI all season long.  It seems clear to me that 8 was a thinly veiled effort to move Kate off the show.  Stop me if I become repetitive.

[verdana]

4 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I continue to be surprised at how things could have kept getting worse.

Not me, I was waiting to find out what would come out post finale and based on what I've read it proves a S9 would have made S8 look stellar in comparison. 

I've found especially over the latter seasons that as each year passed there was a marked decline in quality, the show was spiralling each season into more desperate soap operish storylines and playing fast and loose with the characterisation, once writers are on that path it's very difficult to get off it even if they cared to do so (and I don't believe they did) so it makes sense that S9 would be worse. 

4 hours ago, metaphor said:

I think this entire debacle actually cast a new light on the way the writers shaped S8. Putting aside Beckett's previous character growth and development and increasingly reducing her screentime and relevance were supposed to help pave the way for having the character depart, and make it acceptable for the show to go along on its merry way with the writer solving crimes without his muse. While I really tried to give it a chance as it was airing, I think S8 was and this would-be S9 (with a Beckett who'd gladly run off on some mission while letting Castle and everyone else who loves her mourn her, no less!) would have been such a betrayal of the previous 7 seasons of the show. I'm just so grateful this purported storyline never came to be. 

They either knew that Katic was probably gone after one more season or they figured they had better hedge their bets and start preparing the groundwork because it was so obvious from the first promo the direction they were going in and that didn't change.  

The writers proved they have zero respect for the characters so I'm not shocked they would have had Beckett doing something like this which is yet more damaging regression for the character - I would say if they had gone down this route it would have made her irredeemable at least to me.

They should have had the balls to kill her off if they were going to get the green light to carry on, let their be a time gap a bit of mourning and then they can move on, it's not perfect but it's a damn sight better than the suggestions I've seen of trying to incorporate an offscreen Beckett into the story out of sheer desperation to draw the fans in. 

I'm also looking forward to the Heat books to come out, I wasn't so keen on the last one but the romantic relationship in the books is worked much better than the corresponding one on screen which has become very superficial. 

Edited May 25, 2016 by verdana

[axj73]

One route they could have gone for season 9 is by having Castle mention that Kate is desk bound as she's pregnant and he can still go on jolly japes with the boys helping them investigate. No need to see Kate and the show keeps its comedy feel without destroying Beckett's character.

[westwingfan]

The "real" reason Castle was cancelled?

http://www.tvnewscheck.com/article/94963/nets-feel-pressure-from-affils-to-deliver-at-10

[McManda]

I think the argument that aging shows are bad lead ins  to the 10 o'clock news is a dumb one. I don't think it has anything to do with the lead ins - the news is the news. I guess maaaybe you can get slightly better ratings if you have enough people watching whatever was on before that don't bother to change the channel to a different one for the news, but that's about it.

IMO, bad ratings for the 11PM news are more a result of (1) the news mostly being the same all day (do they really need to air the same stories at 7AM, 12PM, 3PM, 7PM, and 11PM?) and (2) the fact that most people have a 8-4 or 9-5 job, which means they're not staying up until 11:30 just to watch the news that they can catch before their primetime shows. Also, there are a lot more news outlets - who is waiting to catch the daily news when Twitter, Facebook, and every various online site can inform you minutes after it happens. The target demo is not one to watch the news because they want to be informed. They're already getting that info other ways if they want it.

For me, the nightly news is headed the way of print journalism ... sadly it's an antiquated novelty that I don't see recovering to what it once was.

[WendyCR72]

53 minutes ago, McManda said:

For me, the nightly news is headed the way of print journalism ... sadly it's an antiquated novelty that I don't see recovering to what it once was.

I don't necessarily disagree, but this lead-in to news thing isn't new. Actually, it's as old as TV. And, right or not, it's still considered a major factor with affiliates. So the key is keeping said affiliate happy so they either don't take the hour back from national and air local content or flip to another network.

And the ratings for Castle, while they stabilized, were indeed horrible, so I can see where affiliates and lack of revenue equaled "buh bye!"

[McManda]

Oh, I don't disagree. I get why they do what they do, I just think in today's world it's a dumb system dictating those actions. And it also seems like the networks don't learn - very rarely do they win the bet of replacing a show for something better. 

And then fans suffer ... because we get a network full of NCISes or Chicago spinoffs. (I'll give ABC credit, their network might be all Shonda shows but at least they're mostly different.)

I'm not saying it wasn't Castle's time and we'll see if Conviction (is that what it's called?) does better for them than Castle was. They have Hayley Atwell so the potential is there, but ... for every Scandal that comes around there are tens of does that they thought had better potential but didn't catch on.

[WendyCR72]

12 minutes ago, McManda said:

And then fans suffer ... because we get a network full of NCISes or Chicago spinoffs

Because, like it or not, shows like those are syndication gold. Look at the entire Law & Order franchise where you can find the Mothership, Law & Order: Criminal Intent and/or Law & Order: Special Victims Unit repeats on day and night for hours on end.

Some may not like procedurals. But they sell and sell well. Which is why procedurals may tweak forms but never die.

Go on eBay and any of the above for the complete series (or ongoing in SVU's case) - even if already on TV - still sell.

It's comfort food with a cha-ching bonus. Only when folks stop watching will the formula change. And, ironically, while I also respect ABC for trying to go outside the box, the fact that it is claimed it wants procedural elements tells the tale.

Not saying all procedurals are good, but it all boils down to supply, demand, and most of all, it's all about the money, honey!

[BellyLaughter]

Speaking of Law and Order SVU - does anyone know why only 4 seasons are available on Netflix?? I would have thought L&O franchises would be ripe for the picking by Netflix??!!