S01.E12: The Wolves of Deep Brooklyn

[HalcyonDays]

Episode synopsis: Henry returns to work to investigate the murder of a young investor, who happens to be the son of one of Abe's wartime Army buddies. Abe and his Army buddies decide to play detective and solve the case.

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Damn, Henry really crossed the line. He wasn't just being reckless. He stepped in front of a moving car, not once, but twice. I know that it can't be considered suicidal since, duh, he will come back to life, but it was reckless considering that he did it in front of Jo and other people on the street the first time. If the car had hit him, it would have required a lot of explaining.

 

Although the Wall Street/Wolf of Wall Street influence was really obvious, I love how well Billy Baldwin plays smarmy now. He was hilariously obnoxious in this role. I also loved the dad asking in the opening scene, "Is he an actor?" Ha!

 

I like that Jo is offering Henry emotional support on a totally platonic level. I really want them to stay strictly friends without a whiff of romance between them.

 

Really cute that Lucas missed Henry so much.

 

How was Henry able to hang out with Abe and his army buddies without any of them recognizing hiim as Abe's father? Surely Abe must have brought a picture of his parents when he left.

 

Loved seeing Lester from The Wire too! I just saw Herc on The Good Wife last night and Clay Davis on Gotham tonight so I feel like I am getting some kind of reunion on my tv!

[orza]

How was Henry able to hang out with Abe and his army buddies without any of them recognizing hiim as Abe's father? Surely Abe must have brought a picture of his parents when he left.

That was fifty years ago. Even if someone saw a photo, it is unlikely that he remembers exactly what his buddy's folks looked like. In the best case, if he had met them, he might think in passing, "Hey, that guy looks vaguely like Abe's dad back in the day." An old man would chalk it up to his unreliable memory, not on Abe having a father who hasn't aged a day in fifty years.

[HalcyonDays]

Really like this episode, and this show. Please don't cancel it, please don't cancel it. William Baldwin did a great job as smarmy unethical big boss. Jo having absolutely no time for this guy when questioning him was gold. The opening scene, with that ME who just didn't care, and he says something like "do you want your case closed today, or a crackpot theory" and Jo and Lucas are like "crackpot!" Scary to think this probably happens in real life.

 

Loved the little bonding moments between Henry and Jo. But she must think he is crazy and has a death wish, because he keeps standing on front of cars, about to be killed. I swear, it how she will find out about him - he'll get accidently hit by a car.

 

As for Abe's buddies not knowing him - for some reason I think that maybe the family decided early on to hide Henry's presence, because the lack of aging would be very obvious (well, maybe after a few decades) so it's easier for him to just not physically be around. Instead, Abe's friends would have only met his mother, Abigail. Just my theory. However, I started wondering if Abigail was also not aging, because she looked so young.

 

Now I am forgetting what war Abe was fighting in. Did he say the Vietnam War, right, which started in 1955, but the flashback looked like it took place in the 60's. So that's about 15 or more years, making Abigail around 35, so okay, not that odd. But she looked really young.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

If I recall correctly, the title on the screen said the flashback took place in 1965.

[shapeshifter]

...But she must think he is crazy and has a death wish, because he keeps standing on front of cars, about to be killed. I swear, it how she will find out about him - he'll get accidently hit by a car....

If the show continues, they could have him claim to know magic, and that is his disappearing trick. They could even have it tied somehow to the NYC sewer system, and that would explain his swimming in the East River. He would explain that it was a trade secret, so he couldn't tell more.

Or, if it's canceled, yes, Jo, he's immortal.

If I recall correctly, the title on the screen said the flashback took place in 1965.

When my high school boyfriend and his buddies were drafted, they didn't fight it, but I never saw any of them do the "it's for my country" routine like during WWII or post-9/11. Maybe it's because I was only 15 in 1968 when he left for basic training, but I doubt '65 was that different. And I also knew guys who went to Canada to avoid the draft. I don't remember an ideological divide between the two groups either. They were both just hoping not to get caught or killed or maimed. Anyway, it seemed like young Abe was supposed to represent an Iraq or Afghanistan vet, not a Vietnam vet.

[pcta]

I knew draft card burners and super patriots. For sure the antiwar, anti-draft group was bigger. But then I lived in So Cal and was in University during the late '60s/ early '70s - it may have been different in smaller town USA.

Love the Henry/Jo friendship. No shipping from me - just love their partnership

Damn I don't want this program to be cancelled.

[orza]

Abe said explicitly in an earlier episode that he fought in Vietnam. He is also 70, so too old to have served in more recent wars.

[shapeshifter]

Abe said explicitly in an earlier episode that he fought in Vietnam. He is also 70, so too old to have served in more recent wars.

Definitely he's a Vietnam Vet. I just saw Abe's attitude towards the war and defending his country as being more like the non-draft era soldiers of Iraq or Afghanistan, or possibly even many of the drafted soldiers of WWII. While there was a fair amount of support for the Domino Theory (Communists would take over Vietnam and eventually reach Hawaii and California), there were no Vietnamese terrorists in the U.S., neither were they bombing Pearl Harbor. So it was pretty hard for Baby Boomers to get emotionally worked up about going off to the jungles of Southeast Asia to defend their county.

I could accept that Abe was one of the exceptions if he seemed like that type, but he doesn't--at least not to me. He was a teenager listening to jazz, not part of the ROTC.

Edited January 7, 2015 by shapeshifter

[turnitwayup]

Loved seeing Lester from The Wire too! I just saw Herc on The Good Wife last night and Clay Davis on Gotham tonight so I feel like I am getting some kind of reunion on my tv!

 

And Bubbles on Agent Carter too.

 

Really like this episode, and this show. Please don't cancel it, please don't cancel it. William Baldwin did a great job as smarmy unethical big boss. Jo having absolutely no time for this guy when questioning him was gold. The opening scene, with that ME who just didn't care, and he says something like "do you want your case closed today, or a crackpot theory" and Jo and Lucas are like "crackpot!" Scary to think this probably happens in real life.

 

Lucas and Jo really missed him. William is looking more and more like Daniel but channeling Alec's smarmy roles.

 

I'm really enjoying getting more flashbacks of Abe at a different age and older Abe getting into solving cases.

[sinkwriter]

 

I could accept that Abe was one of the exceptions if he seemed like that type, but he doesn't--at least not to me. He was a teenager listening to jazz, not part of the ROTC.

 

Maybe being in the war changed him into more of the man he is today. Less super patriot after seeing some of the horrors of that war. I took a class in the subject during college, and our professor brought our class to lunch with 3 Vietnam vets - one Marine, one Army guy, and one (I think he was) Air Force. And I remember to this day being fascinated by how different each of those 3 guys were, how different their experiences were and their opinions about the war. It was remarkable. One was highly bitter, angry, defensive (almost startlingly so, I'll never forget some of his vehement statements); one was quiet (his experience was more removed); and the final one was laid-back, almost Zen about it like "shit happened, yeah, but you get through it and you move on."

 

At any rate, I really liked the stuff between Henry and Jo. I liked how she looked out for him and didn't buy his "I'm fine" and kept after him. I was so afraid they were going to end the episode on that flashback to Abe going off to war, rather than allow us to see a scene where Jo confronts Henry about his dangerous behavior, so I was so relieved for that final scene. It was wonderful. And I loved how honest she was, how she wants to be there for him, if he'll let her. He seemed thoughtful about it, so hopefully he lets that simmer for a while and eventually goes to her when he needs to. Perhaps we'll see even more give and take between them - sounds like next week's episode will help with that. I'm looking forward to it. 

[TobinAlbers]

Henry and Abigail's absolute angst over Abe going off to war really got to me especially since they both served and saw the horrors of war and the ONE good thing to come out of it was Abe himself and now it was possible for them to lose him in a later war. Henry's manly tears and then just embracing his boy and telling him 'I love you', man good stuff.

 

And IG is great at keeping up that ever fretting adoring father to Abe in the present day. He goes from remembering the stomach churning moment of letting Abe got to Vietnam to a parent's exasperation and admonishing Abe for his escapade breaking and entering.  And JH really excels at playing a 70 year old who acts like an eager, rebellious son with 40ish looking IG. Just some great work.

 

William Baldwin sounds so much like Alec now, if you look away from the screen you think it's Alec in the scene. Crazy.

 

I'm not for/against Jo and Henry shipping but that last scene of them where they had that moment just before her cell phone rang, I could totally see the spark and potential and how even though they both lost the love of their lives they could both still find a powerful bond and love with each other in the present day. Again, props to IG and AD because they're playing it just right.

 

As simple cookie cutter this show is on paper (police procedural, quirky male investigator, put upon female cop, crotchety old guy) it goes to show that it's the details in casting and subtle tweaks execution that can set it apart and make it entertaining even in it's predictableness.

Edited January 7, 2015 by TobinAlbers

[Notwisconsin]

...While there was a fair amount of support for the Domino Theory (Communists would take over Vietnam and eventually reach Hawaii and California)...

 

A short note here: The domino theory WORKS. Look at the events of 1989 and 2011. Falling dominoes all over the place, and it took massive armies to stop the latter.

[sinkwriter]

I really liked how the episode went back and forth between the current day "loss of a son" case to the flashbacks of Henry worrying about losing his own son to war. Sometimes the case + flashbacks can seem too on the nose in pointing out the theme of the week, but I really do enjoy when they reveal more of Henry and Abe's relationship, and invest more in Henry and Jo's.

 

One thing I noticed: at the point young Abe was headed off to war, he already seemed to know about his dad's "special" gift. So it again gets me wondering at what age Abe found out about Henry, and how it was revealed. Did they tell him about it? Did he accidentally witness one of Henry's deaths? I think it could be really interesting, and I hope we get to see that moment in their past.

[Calamity Jane]

Have not seen the episode yet, but I can speak to the Vietnam era and how people reacted.  Many, many young men, especially in 1965, went off to the war believing they were truly serving a good cause, and some returned still feeling that way. Many, if not most, however, came back extremely disillusioned and in serious doubt about what was happening over there.  If Abe went off in 1965, that was still in the time period when the majority of the country supported the war (just at the beginning of the major escalations).  It is entirely logical for Abe to have left feeling proud and confident that the war was a cause well worth serving, and he could have come home feeling the same or completely of a different mind.   It happened both ways.  

Also, it is true that the Vietnam War started much earlier, but the US was not involved in significant numbers until well into the sixties, and our presence in 1955 would have been minimal, just "advisors" for the most part.  

[possibilities]

I love Jo. She's tough, competent, and yet not portrayed as an invulnerable super-woman. Excellent and rare work, there, Show!

 

I kept thinking Henry wanted Jo to see him get killed/reborn. It's the only way she'd believe it, and it's the only way he'd ever get to make an ally and friend out of her in the way he really needs. Walking in front of the cars is a rough gamble, but how else is he to accomplish this goal? I think he's a little desperate to have more than just Abe in on his secret, and now that he's got someone worth confiding in, he really has no other way to go about it.

[Jaded Sapphire]

I love Jo. She's tough, competent, and yet not portrayed as an invulnerable super-woman. Excellent and rare work, there, Show!

 

I kept thinking Henry wanted Jo to see him get killed/reborn. It's the only way she'd believe it, and it's the only way he'd ever get to make an ally and friend out of her in the way he really needs. Walking in front of the cars is a rough gamble, but how else is he to accomplish this goal? I think he's a little desperate to have more than just Abe in on his secret, and now that he's got someone worth confiding in, he really has no other way to go about it.

Seconding the Jo/Alana love and the idea that Henry wants to reveal his secret. I don't think it was his main motivation, especially considering how public the first death would've been, but had he been hit I can't help but think he'd be more relieved than upset about Jo seeing it. I'm also convinced that seeing Henry die is not only how Jo will find out but how Abigail had Henry's secret revealed to her (he certainly couldn't convince his first wife through words alone). 

[sonneta]

I love the relationship between Abe and Henry, so this episode was great for me. Loved seeing a bit more of their background.  And yes, I also loved Jo coming by in the end and wanting to support Henry.  The relationships just make this show so great.

[sonyab]

Another great episode! I knew that lady was lying that she killed that guy, and that William Baldwin's character did it. I knew she was protecting him.  The flashbacks were great! Always love them. When Henry was at the train station giving his speech to his son, I cried!!! Henry trying to get hit by a car! Twice! Craziness!!! I love that Abe was trying to help his dad. I love that Lucas and Jo rather work with Henry, than that other morgue old guy. :)

[shapeshifter]

...I kept thinking Henry wanted Jo to see him get killed/reborn. It's the only way she'd believe it, and it's the only way he'd ever get to make an ally and friend out of her in the way he really needs. Walking in front of the cars is a rough gamble, but how else is he to accomplish this goal? I think he's a little desperate to have more than just Abe in on his secret, and now that he's got someone worth confiding in, he really has no other way to go about it.

Seconding...the idea that Henry wants to reveal his secret....I'm also convinced that seeing Henry die is not only how Jo will find out but how Abigail had Henry's secret revealed to her (he certainly couldn't convince his first wife through words alone).

It seems like they are leading up to this happening in the traditional story-telling style that goes back beyond The Three Bears. Sort of like: This car stopped too short. This car went past Henry. And this car hit him just right to make him go poof. In real life, there's a fairly high percentage chance of him surviving in a disabled state, but I suppose he and Abe have living will and other contingencies worked out so he would still be able to go for a swim in the river and emerge whole--which would still be very anti-climatic if his goal is to have Jo see him go poof. But this is not real life, so I am anticipating a "just right" scenario soon--unless the little speech at the end from Jo means he will not throw himself in front of a car again while she watches. IDK. Maybe he'll go big and go for a big truck--although too big of a vehicle might obscure the moment of poof. Anyway, if the show's not going to get a second season, it might be nice to have Jo see him poof out for a swim. She already knows there's something odd about his swimming habits. And it could be a nicely tear-jerking, 3-Kleenex finale.

[waving feather]

I was actually delighted at the way Jo talked to Henry about his suicidal heroic attempts. The predictable thing would be for her to scream at him (out of concern or whatever) and ban him from her investigations. Instead she went to him as a caring and loving friend and related her experience with him and how they can help each other. I thought that was beautiful. I wouldn't mind something more between them but their friendship is also perfect as it is. Even without the secret reveal.

Always love Henry & Abe, in current time or flashbacks. Ioan is doing such a great job with his character.

[molshoop]

I love this show and can't believe how low it's ratings are.  I was hoping it would pick up new viewers during the holiday repeats.

 

But, It looks like it wont get a second season.

[Sakura12]

Henry and Abe's father/son relationship and interactions are the highlights for me. I love seeing Henry act like an old man around the older men, especially the "I thought you said he was cool". 

 

Jo and Henry's relationship is great the way it is. They don't need to be romantic to be compelling. Lucas and Jo being like yeah, I'll take crackpot theory any day of the week.

 

It's sad that this show doesn't get the ratings it needs. It's a great show with some great character moments that most shows lack.

[sonyab]

 

 

But, It looks like it wont get a second season.

Yeah did you read the Q&A with EW and Matt Miller in the forever in the media section that I put up? :(

[attica]

The cat who used to live downstairs from me recognized the sound of my car when I came home. That's what I thought of when IG had his 'that's an Aston Martin!" moment. We learn what we love.

[molshoop]

Yeah did you read the Q&A with EW and Matt Miller in the forever in the media section that I put up? :(

 

I just read it.  I always forget there are media threads.

 

If Forever gets cancelled, maybe it will mysteriously just pop up on next year's ABC schedule.

 

[attica]

If Forever gets cancelled, maybe it will mysteriously just pop up on next year's ABC schedule.

 

..Naked and in water. :)

[zannej]

I enjoyed this episode. I do get a bit worried whenever shows touch on Vietnam because many have typical tropes that are not reflective of what actually happened. My father actually joined the Army when he was 16 rather than waiting a few years for a draft. His older brother was already in the Navy and he mistakenly thought that if he (my father) was sent to Vietnam, that his older brother would not be sent. He went with the Army because they told him his test results qualified him for a higher rank. He turned 17 just before being sent to boot camp and spent a year in Thailand before they could send him to 'Nam. He felt that the Army made him stronger. He also came out with a deep loathing for the newsmedia. He was at the Tet Offensive and said we won and that the north vietnamese were ready to throw in the towel (he was in the army security agency so he received the intel) until the news put on some crap story claiming it was a "psychological defeat" because some embassy got invaded (but the attack was successfully repelled). That gave the north vietnamese a second wind. He was also at a parade with hundreds of people cheering and showing support and there was one tiny section of protesters. The news chose to only show the protesters.

Of course, there was dickery from the government with telling them they could attack a place one day but couldn't attack there another day for no apparent reason. Also, the air force personnel were not given guns and when their base was invaded the Army had to come defend them.

 

My father didn't have any friends that were draft dodgers, but his best friend was drafted and killed within 3 weeks. Poor kid knew when he was drafted that he was going to die.

 

Ok, I went OT quite a bit.. I actually found Abe's attitude about joining to be refreshing because there were young men who felt that way about going to war.

 

As for Abe's friends, I think the only time they would have seen Henry was when Abe was getting on the bus and they didn't take that good of a look. If there was any recognition they may have assumed that current Henry was a relative.

 

One thing I would find funny is if Henry's picture appeared in a book that Nigel read and he joked about Henry being immortal and mentioned Nicholas Cage looking almost identical to someone from the past. Of course, Henry could always say it was an ancestor of his.

[sonyab]

 

If Forever gets cancelled, maybe it will mysteriously just pop up on next year's ABC schedule.

 

 

Yeah maybe. You never know.

 

..Naked and in water. :)

 

ROFL!

 

My father actually joined the Army when he was 16

 

 

 

Did he lie about his age and said he was 18?

Edited January 8, 2015 by sonyab

[zannej]

Yeah maybe. You never know.

 

 

ROFL!

 

Did he lie about his age and said he was 18?

No. He had his father go with him to sign permission for him to join. My grandfather didn't want to, but my father said he was going to run off and lie about his age if he didn't, so my grandfather begrudgingly went along with it.

[shapeshifter]

...As for Abe's friends, I think the only time they would have seen Henry was when Abe was getting on the bus and they didn't take that good of a look....

They seemed to make a point of the guy in front of Abe in the line for the bus talking to Abe over his shoulder, with Abe's parents out of his range of sight. A lot of other shows with better ratings don't bother to be so visually consistent.

...If there was any recognition they may have assumed that current Henry was a relative....

I've imagined this in several episodes. I hope they do it at least once before the end of the season.

[Clanstarling]

 

Definitely he's a Vietnam Vet. I just saw Abe's attitude towards the war and defending his country as being more like the non-draft era soldiers of Iraq or Afghanistan, or possibly even many of the drafted soldiers of WWII. While there was a fair amount of support for the Domino Theory (Communists would take over Vietnam and eventually reach Hawaii and California), there were no Vietnamese terrorists in the U.S., neither were they bombing Pearl Harbor. So it was pretty hard for Baby Boomers to get emotionally worked up about going off to the jungles of Southeast Asia to defend their county.

 

I think the war in Vietnam is what changed the unquestioning attitude about military service, along with seeing combat footage and hearing the death tolls reported on TV every night.

 

I had no personal experience with the draft - I was a military brat, but my father was against the war. He had joined up to serve in Korea when it started in 1950 and , and like Henry, knew the horrors of war. We lost that war (well, it was a draw) by 1953, with combat causalities were nearly as large as the total causalities during the Vietnam war. My father managed to avoid combat duty in 'Nam, but my brother joined up before he was eligible for the draft and served two tours, which haunted him the rest of his life.

 

Enough of war talk, I thought it was a pretty good episode, even if casting William Baldwin immediately telegraphed who the murderer was. He does play a good slimy bad guy.

[sinkwriter]

 

I thought it was a pretty good episode, even if casting William Baldwin immediately telegraphed who the murderer was. He does play a good slimy bad guy.

 

That's how I feel about Ray Wise. He's almost always the bad guy. The minute I see him, I'm annoyed because I know how the story's going to turn out. The only time I think they surprised me was when he was on Psych.

 

I think I would have liked it a little better if they'd gone against convention and William Baldwin not be the killer, but simply a rich bastard shark businessman who could have been, even suspected at one point, but even he has a line he won't cross. Like killing would be too messy for him; he'd rather destroy a man by taking away all his money, making him cry and crushing him metaphorically under his fancy Italian shoes. LOL.

[zannej]

I will say that the unquestioning attitude did exist in the general public prior to Vietnam (even back in WW2), but I agree that the lamestream media didn't dare report on it before that. I think perhaps the Korean War soured things and that after it, the lamestream media decided it was better to report more on the negative side. Unfortunately they didn't separate the soldiers from the war and the veterans were vilified and treated like garbage when they returned. I'm glad that is not happening as much nowadays, but there are still some groups who vilify the soldiers.

 

I think it would be interesting to see Henry react to something in an old newspaper that happened when he was there and he knew the story was bogus.

 

I was expecting the show to have some twist and not have Baldwin be the killer in the end, but it wasn't too surprising when that turned out to be the case. I think they did an ok job with the guy who wanted the office as a red herring. I still enjoyed the episode.

[gazebo]

I already knew from the beginning that Baldwin's character had something to do with that poor young man's death.  The mystery was ho-hum.  What got to me were the wonderful flashbacks of Henry dealing with the fact that his son was drafted off to war.  The actor that played young Abe was outstanding.  I could see the love Henry had for Abe and Abe still determined to go off to the war and telling Henry in a gentle way that he has to let go of him.  I kind of teared up when Young Abe got on the bus and the sorrow that Henry and his wife had seeing their only child leave them.  I was especially moved when this other young man who was getting on the bus with Young Abe quickly offered his friendship and his protection.

 

I'm just enjoying this show so much that I will miss this show if it get's canceled. 

[sonyab]

No. He had his father go with him to sign permission for him to join. My grandfather didn't want to, but my father said he was going to run off and lie about his age if he didn't, so my grandfather begrudgingly went along with it.

 

Wow!! He REALLY wanted to join! God bless him!

[zannej]

Wow!! He REALLY wanted to join! God bless him!

And the reason he really wanted to join was because he'd heard about the story of a woman who lost all of her sons in one of the wars and that the government passed a law that they wouldn't send all of someone's sons to combat zones again so that wouldn't happen. He was under the impression that if he joined and was shipped off to a combat area, that they would not send his older brother (who was in the Navy) to a combat area. He was actually going to join the Navy at first and he took the Army's test as practice. But the Army wanted to put him in the Army Security Agency and didn't care that he hadn't gone to high school and the Navy would have started him off lower down because of his education level (or lack thereof). They weren't actually able to send him to Viet Nam until he turned 18, so he spent the first year in Thailand.

 

Anyway, I did like how Abraham actually wanted to go and that he viewed it as his duty to the country.