Unspoiled Speculation: Flash of Genius

[Trini]

I just don't like any scenario where it's going to make Jay Garrick (or even "Jay Garrick"?) the bad guy. Plus, I don't think it lines up with what they've shown us about Jay from the start. They already wasted the character most of this season, and now* they decide to make him (maybe?) the Big Bad? (Or working with Zoom.) If there is a secret twin, I might hurt myself from the massive eyeroll that's going to happen.

 

*(I don't believe this would have been planned from the start of the season.)

Edited February 19, 2016 by Trini

[zannej]

My guess is that the person in the mask is Jay while the person claiming to be Jay is either Hunter Zolomon or a clone of either Jay or Hunter. Maybe the clone is called Hunter or maybe Jay has a twin brother. Jay would need to be kept in the same sort of cell as Barry because he has speed powers. Maybe the mask dampens his powers but doesn't take them away entirely.

 

Zoom could be Hunter if the impersonator is a clone. Or maybe Zoom is Henry Allen of E2. Or, maybe it's Hunter (or someone else) who can change forms and took on the appearance of Henry Allen for some reason. That would explain some of the comments he made to Barry.

* First, Henry just up and leaves after getting out of prison with some BS excuse that does not make sense. Zoom says something about how he likes to fish with bait. Henry turns up and says he's been in Granite Peaks National Park and he's caught his fill of large-mouth bass. He also tells Barry that sometimes you have to slow down to get where you want to be. He was pushing Barry to get faster. He didn't seem particularly upset about the potential return of Reverse Flash, he never went anywhere near Cisco, and there was something odd about his interaction when he shook hands with Harry. They made a point of saying that Barry did not tell Henry he was going to Earth2. Zoom's lair appears to be in what I think could be the E2 equivalent of E1's Granite Peaks National Park (and yes, I know it was called The Woodlands on the show).

 

* I definitely think that the person posing as Jay was working with Zoom, reporting back to him about what was going on, sabotaged the speed canon (twice), and let the metahuman guy in to STARLabs while he was claiming to take a nap. And I think he intentionally walked in front of the portal with the plan to get snatched up by Zoom so he could bring the V9 back to him. Whether or not the chest thing was arranged beforehand or not, I don't know. But he had to get Barry out of the picture and keep him out while creating a need for himself to be given speed to get the formula perfected and test it out.

 

* When Zoom was about to inject himself with 2% of Barry's speedforce, his hand was shaking like he had DTs. He may need to keep collecting speed to prevent himself from going through withdrawal.

 

* I think there is a slight possibility that Jesse replaced Jay as the spy or maybe is a bit of a Manchurian candidate. She could be brainwashed or could be under duress. She could probably manipulate Harry better than Zoom ever could. If that is the case, hopefully they will find a way to break her out of it-- assuming she's actually Jesse and not some metahuman shapeshifter.

 

* Did I mention the shapeshifter or bodysnatcher theory? What if Zoom stole Henry's appearance?

 

* I still like the evil twin idea.

[Glory]

I don't think Zoom can be E2 Henry - if only because we know that E2 Barry's parents are happily married and going on an anniversary trip to Atlantis.

 

I do think it could still be E1 Henry... but I don't know what his motivation would be?? 

[Trini]

So with Barry's determination to get back to Earth-2 to stop Zoom, I guess one attempt he accidentally ends up in Supergirl's universe, and thus, crossover.

[Trini]

I think the showrunners might be leaving clues about the next episode (or just the next episode villain) in each episode. Fringe used to do something similar -- and a former Fringe writer is part of The Flash's writer's room. In "Welcome to Earth-2" there's a Jaws reference, and two episodes later, King Shark is featured. And in "King Shark" the word 'trajectory' is used twice in a scene and Trajectory is the next episode's villain.

 

I only noticed those two examples, I'd have to review the more episodes to see if it's really a pattern, and how long it has been going on; but I only have access to the episodes that are up online. It'd be a nice bonus 'game' if it's true!

[Trini]

I kinda hope next week's episode gets "erased" (even though I normally think that's a cop-out storytelling trope) because I really rather they not screw with the timeline any further. And while I'm glad to see Hartley again, I would rather he come back in the present time so we could have a Vibe vs. Pied Piper showdown.

[zannej]

I'm actually hoping that what happens in the next episode will explain some of the things that were not explained in the episode where Hartley first appeared.

For one, Hartley indicated that he knew Harrison's deep dark secret but he never came out and said exactly what it was and I got the impression it was more than just that he knew the accelerator might explode. Maybe he found out that it wasn't really Harrison Wells and that the particle accelerator explosion was deliberate-- but he knew better than to come out and say it for some reason.

 

Also, when Eobard was on the floor having lost his speedforce, Hartley walked up to him and said "Am I still your guy?" but was gone before Barry got there and Eobard was back in his chair with no explanation of what transpired. Did Hartley just leave him on the floor and walk away? Or did something happen to interrupt Hartley before he could hurt him?

 

And was Hartley targeting Barry because he realized that Eobard/Wells needed him for something and that killing him would make it so Eobard wouldn't get what he needed?

 

Why did Hartley later disappear and never re-appear? Did he feel justice was served when it seemed that Wells had died?

 

Did Hartley ever actually kill anyone? I can't recall. It seemed like he may have been trying to kill Barry, but maybe he really wasn't a killer at heart. I hope we will get some answers to those questions.

[Maverick]

He was tossing cars off a bridge with his sonic gauntlets.  I think it was implied he killed a few people doing that.  I wouldn't cross a bridge in Central City for shit.   Apparently the metahuman gene gives you some freaky fetish for them.

[zannej]

He was tossing cars off a bridge with his sonic gauntlets.  I think it was implied he killed a few people doing that.  I wouldn't cross a bridge in Central City for shit.   Apparently the metahuman gene gives you some freaky fetish for them.

Ah. I forgot about that. I wonder if they will ever mention whether or not he actually killed people. If he had, you'd think they would still be looking for him instead of letting him run free. But then, Harry murdered the Turtle right in their holding cell and they overlooked it.

[Trini]

So with Jay Garrick dead, Jesse goes back to Earth-1 and becomes the 'Flash'. I don't think Wally will get powers this season; if he does at all. Two hero speedsters would be a real shake-up for the show.

[bettername2come]

So with Jay Garrick dead, Jesse goes back to Earth-1 and becomes the 'Flash'. I don't think Wally will get powers this season; if he does at all. Two hero speedsters would be a real shake-up for the show.

I agree. I think it would make more sense for Wally to transfer to LOT if he does become a speedster.

[MJJohnson23]

I believe the man in the mask could be Ronnie Raymond...
I know at one angle his hair is blonde... but that is only in one shot
(maybe to throw us off.)
Many other times when the man in the iron mask is shown his hair is dark
Here are a couple of freeze frames from episodes S02e14+15.
When Ronnie and Professor Stien seperated in the singularity I believe that like good "jay" (now dead) ronnie was pulled through to Earth 2 and Zoom or Ronnie's dopple ganger found him and are holding him hostage. I hope I'm right Ronnie was a good character, and I hope he returns. After all why would Ronnie die and not Professor Stien. There is only 1 picture that shows blonde hair I have 7 proving its not blonde (the 1st,6th and 7th pictures you can CLEARLY see he has dark hair not blonde the 2nd, 4th and 5th  picture showing the back of his head its all dark hair, and 3rd Picture look at hair line on the neck.) Idk how everyone else is missing this, but im saying Ronnie Raymond returns.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Its not exactly true speculation, but I hope this currently reality of Barry being do-powered isn't too lengthy.  I didn't 'sign up' to watch a show about the Flash being a normal human who can't run really fast.

Its not exactly true speculation, but I hope this currently reality of Barry being do-powered isn't too lengthy.  I didn't 'sign up' to watch a show about the Flash being a normal human who can't run really fast.

[Trini]

With Barry zapped into Speed Force Purgatory(?) and only leaving a charred suit behind, that means when he comes back, he's coming back naked, right? If they want to keep up the parallels to Fringe.

[zannej]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

With Barry zapped into Speed Force Purgatory(?) and only leaving a charred suit behind, that means when he comes back, he's coming back naked, right? If they want to keep up the parallels to Fringe.

For some reason that reminded me of how Daniel Jackson died, ascended, and then came back naked on Stargate:SG1. IIRC, in one scene a character handed him a flag to wrap around himself. Barry would probably be able to get some clothes on much faster though.

I hope they don't delay too long over bringing Barry back. I wonder if Wally and Jesse are comatose or if they will wake up promptly. Everyone was already upset about what happened to Barry. I think it would wreck Harry even more if he saw that Jesse was hurt. And Joe would likely be even more upset with Harry. At least Zoom's arrival to do the supervillain equivalent of saying "neener neener-- seeya, wouldn't want ta be ya" probably spared Wells from an attempted asskicking from either Joe or Henry (or both). I imagine Iris will be a wreck because she thinks she just lost Barry and her little brother could be hurt. But maybe the kids will wake up quickly.

I'm halfway surprised that Zoom didn't run off with the remnants of Barry's suit to show Caitlin and gloat.

I also wonder if Caitlin will get a clue and start to try playing along with Zoom to gain more trust. He's so desperate to feel loved that he might fall for it.

[Trini]

They're setting me up to get my heart broken, aren't they?

[zannej]

Yeah. I'm guessing they might as well have just painted a big target on Henry's back (or chest). I hope I'm wrong though.

It's kind of cool that currently Barry could probably write a book called "My Three Dads" or something. :P

I hope they don't pull a switch and kill off E2 Wells. I'm a bit worried they might do that since I don't know if they want to keep the current version around and I think the general consensus was that season 1 Wells was more fun.

[Trini]

I don't think they'll kill off Wells, but I do wonder if they are going to try and keep Cavanugh for next season. We should be mostly done with Earth-2 by the end of this season (with the possibility of returning to it still open, though), so I would assume Wells goes back home. One version that we haven't spent much time with is original, Earth-1 Harrison Wells, who Thawne killed. I would mind seeing him -- if they insist on keeping Cavanugh -- but plot/story contortions needed to make that happen might be too much.

[zannej]

Well, there are more universes out there, so they could introduce an Earth 3 Wells. I know Tom liked being the villain, but it would be cool if they had him as a good guy with powers. I think he said the main selling point was being able to put on the costume for season 1. It would be nice if they found ways to revisit the Eobard/Wells version, but they can only do Barry going back in time a certain number of times.

Now, if they said that at some point when Barry went back he altered it so that Eobard lived and was still stuck in the Wells body, it might be interesting. But they probably couldn't have him in every single episode. I sort of wanted them to make it so Barry told Iris the truth, she ended up splitting with Eddie, Eddie went off to that dancer Charlene (I think that was her name) and Barry let Eobard return home. BUT, the singularity still opened up and opened up the portal to other worlds.

If I wasn't fairly sure they would be done with Zoom this season, it would be cool to see Zoom vs Reverse Flash. I'd love to see him vs the Eobard/Wells version.

Like, what if Zoom decided to go back and try to steal Eobard's speed when he was pretending to be Wells and Barry had to go save him (to preserve the timeline).

[Actionmage]

After this evening's episode ("Invincible"), maybe we will get Earth-2 Jay Garrick in the form of someone in a Henry Allen-shaped body? Unless the writers get super-troll-y during the end of the season, Henry musing about his mom's maiden name being Garrick should lead to something. That way the troika of Dads doesn't change, but new stories with different flavors get to be told. Maybe.

That's just my wild spec for the moment, because I'd hate to lose John Wesley Shipp after barely getting to have him on and that shameless tease of Tina and Henry at the West house.

[Trini]

Man in the Mask had better be Shipp! They need to do something to Redeem the name 'Jay Garrick'.
-----------

This season they've already shown us at least 2 different ways to defeat Zoom: 1) Velocity-9 overdose, and 2) the device that took Barry's speed. It'd be great if Team Flash remembers that, but I'm prepared to be disappointed.

They've teased powers for both Jesse and Wally, but I think Jesse is most likely to get powers in the finale. I hope so, because Barry needs the help.

[zannej]

If Caitlin wasn't so freaked out they could send her to run back to Zoom and pretend she decided to join his side and have her hug him and slip the power sucking device on him. But she would probably be way too nervous and would likely blow it-- or he'd be too suspicious even if he wanted to believe her.

I kind of wish Barry would go back in time and sneak up on Zoom just before Zoom can kill Henry and have Barry just knife him in the back (or use nanites or *something* on him. Hey, why can't Cisco make another cold gun?

[phoenics]

So I chatted with a friend about this on Sunday - and then someone on tumblr - but my theory is that the Man in the Mask is Jay Garrick, who is actually E2 Henry's grandfather... But I think Zoom went back in time to kidnap that Jay - from WWII or something, hence the MITM's clothes looking like a WWII uniform, and him tapping out an old war code.

Jay/Zoom couldn't have Team Flash looking for Jay Garrick on E1 and then discovering that it's NOT his doppelganger... so he went back and kidnapped him to make sure they never found him.  If he kidnapped him in the past, then it's likely that Henry never even met him.  

This also explains why the writers had Henry "disappear" all season - he's never seen Jay and never heard his last name until Barry mentioned it to him at the cabin.

Before last night's episode I wanted it to be Barry from E1's future timeline, but now that they've killed off Barry's dad, I want it to be his great grandfather - but the same age as his dad.  

[Trini]

If your theory is right, it leaves a whole lot of questions that I don't think we're going to get satisfactory answers to. (Or we might still have have unanswered questions anyway...) They've really fumbled this whole Zoom/Garrick character/arc. Maybe later I'll have the energy to into it; but I'm just ready for it to be over.

[zannej]

Yeah. The whole Eobard angle was much more compelling-- partially because Tom Cavanagh did such a great job but also because he was there in every episode and there was a gradual build where we kept getting hints that he was a villain, but at the same time we weren't sure if he was just immoral and willing to kill to protect Barry or if he was just using Barry for something.

While I do think Teddy was doing better once they revealed he wasn't a good guy, I still feel that the character lacks depth and the performance still doesn't make me interested. Now, maybe it is mostly the writing, but the acting just doesn't really work for me. I can't really buy him as all that menacing. He doesn't seem to bring the right level of crazy IMO. But I've heard other people like his performance so maybe it's just me.

I do wonder if it will turn out that Earth2 MITM is the grandfather and that Hunter is actually related to Barry-- maybe a cousin-- but that maybe they will have John Wesley Shipp play the grandfather. The way Hunter shook his head and reacted to Henry's voice indicated to me that the voice was familiar and it bothered him to hear it.

[bettername2come]

I think the MITIM has to be some kind of Barry relative, although after the "when you have kids" line, I wonder if it would be Barry's son or grandson.

Although part of me still wants it to be Ronnie. 

[Trini]

(And I'm still holding on to that 1% chance it's Eddie...)

General Season 3 spec:
In a lot of the genre shows I've watched in the past decade or so, the third season (/second season finale) is the point where the show does something big to shake up the status quo; a "game changer". Maybe add a few new cast members.

What does everyone think they might do with The Flash? They really something to shake off the sophomore slump they've had with this season's scripts. One big thing I think they need to do is to lessen Barry's reliance on Team Flash. And while I like Cavanugh, maybe demote him to recurring. (Unless they can think of a way that makes sense for him to play a third character that looks like Wells) THey've developed Cisco and his powers a lot this season, but maybe bring in another (super?)hero character for Barry to work with; since Firestorm is off the show for now.

One thing I'm worried might screw with Season 3 plans is the crossovers with the other 3 Berlanti/DC shows. They're planning a mega-crossover as we speak; I just hope that any big changes won't have to wait until after that.

[bettername2come]

I want Caitlin get the Killer Frost powers and stay good so they have a powered trio versus the non-powered trio on Arrow. I would like to see her character developed more...especially if I get what I want and she gets powered and kills Zoom in the finale.

Actually allowing Westallen is another way they could change things up. And I hope the future plays a bigger role. It's a waste of a psychic and a time traveler otherwise. I don't want crisis yet, but they need something in that vein.

[zannej]

I never cared for crossovers in the comics and I'm iffy about them on this show. Although, I do watch Arrow and LoT as well, so it might not be so bad.

If Cisco's vision of Earth2 splitting in half comes true, maybe Harry will have no choice but to stay on Earth1 so Cavanagh could remain as the same character.

[Trini]

5 hours ago, bettername2come said:

... Actually allowing Westallen is another way they could change things up. And I hope the future plays a bigger role. It's a waste of a psychic and a time traveler otherwise. I don't want crisis yet, but they need something in that vein.

Yeah, maybe they could delve into the future glimpses that we saw in the season 1 finale.
 

1 hour ago, zannej said:

If Cisco's vision of Earth2 splitting in half comes true, maybe Harry will have no choice but to stay on Earth1 so Cavanagh could remain as the same character.

I don't think they'll actually destroy Earth-2, but with Cisco's powers, I suppose Harry could come back whenever, even if he does return to Earth-2.

[zannej]

Or maybe they will introduce an Earth3 version-- although I like the Earth2 version. The only thing I don't like about the E2 version is the gruff voice thing. I want to see Cisco offer him a Riccola (or some fictional version of a throat soothing candy).

[Actionmage]

Quote

One big thing I think they need to do is to lessen Barry's reliance on Team Flash.

I agree with this , in that Barry needs to do the explaining to the team back at the lab why he's doing X as opposed to Y. The way it is written now makesit feel like Cisco and Caitlin are telling Barry how he should approach situations, when a) Barry's pretty conversant in the sciences as is and b) he's the one who is supposed to know what he can do with his powers.

Maybe he can came back to Season 3 and surprise even the Flash Mob with some new moves that he tried out during a break/vacation/ Memorial Day between waking up and the group bbq at the West house. ::shrugs:: The last two seasons have shown Barry whining about wanting to do more with his abilities, but not really working on what he could do. Testing limits and moves that are needed to defeat a particular bad guy? Sure!  But even on Grimm, the lead, after getting some heightened abilities a couple of times, was shown to go out in the woods and work on his skills and abilities ( hitting fruit with a blindfold on; his in-the-know buddy helped.) Here, unless it was prompted by an immediate need, Barry hasn't done anything to come up with a move that could help at a later point.  Having Barry come back having come up with a small handful of nifty moves to use against baddies and/or meta-baddies would go to showing not only his maturation as a hero, but potentially, his goofy nerd side.

 

Quote

(Unless they can think of a way that makes sense for him to play a third character that looks like Wells)

Since I don't know what tonight's finale has in store, I can't say for sure, but : why would TC have to play a third version of Harrison Wells? If Zoom is defeated, then Harry and Jesse can go back home, if they wish. Or Harrison can return to his company and Jesse can stay. Either way leaves open the chance of  Harry popping in from time-to-time. He can still be used as a sounding board and/or mentor. But, as I said, this is all on Harry surviving the finale, which I hope he does. Cranky Harry is my favorite version to date.

While I would not like a Crisis on Infinite Earths to happen- at least not right now, I think something cool would be a villain we don't know is a chronal problem until we get to the LoT episode(s). Dimensional? Pfft. Barry can handle that now. Just as long as it's not Vandal Savage, I'm pretty okay. Someone/ a group of someones who can go at Our Heroes not only dimensionally, but chronally( sp?) could be an amazing final fight, as evidenced in LoT's final fight ( of the season, anyway) against VS.

I guess I am hoping that we get an onion not a tire. Onions have layers, so you progressively defeat stronger bad guys until you discover The Boss. Unfortunately, we got a bad, practically bald tire in S2. It still got us where we were going. We saw some cool sights. Yet, would we do that again? Probably not. At least, not for a while.

[Trini]

10 minutes ago, Actionmage said:

Cranky Harry is my favorite version to date.

Ah, that's where where we differ; I don't like Cranky Harry as much. But also I'd like to see more of Original Earth-1 Wells, who was happily married. (But I know they'd have to do a lot of shenanigans to resurrect that character.)

[zannej]

15 hours ago, Trini said:

Ah, that's where where we differ; I don't like Cranky Harry as much. But also I'd like to see more of Original Earth-1 Wells, who was happily married. (But I know they'd have to do a lot of shenanigans to resurrect that character.)

Given what happened in the finale, we may get original Earth 1 Wells next season. I hope at least. Of course, I suspect that before the end of the season, Barry will decide that things went so horribly wrong that he will go back and tell his past self to NOT save Nora.

[Tableau]

My prediction for next season: Two timelines and alternating narratives. One timeline where Barry saves his mother and things really go to shit and Barry has to fix it or get out of it (roughly the Infinite Crisis storyline). And the other timeline being the one we've built up over the last two seasons and Barry is missing because of he's in the new timeline. Central City doesn't have the Flash and Wally finds out he's a speedster and needs to step in as the new Flash until they can find Barry. It could last a half season or so I think. Maybe have a new big bad who exists in both timelines...

[Kromm]

3 hours ago, Tableau said:

My prediction for next season: Two timelines and alternating narratives. One timeline where Barry saves his mother and things really go to shit and Barry has to fix it or get out of it (roughly the Infinite Crisis storyline). And the other timeline being the one we've built up over the last two seasons and Barry is missing because of he's in the new timeline. Central City doesn't have the Flash and Wally finds out he's a speedster and needs to step in as the new Flash until they can find Barry. It could last a half season or so I think. Maybe have a new big bad who exists in both timelines...

My theory is sort of an alternate of this.

It was brought up elsewhere that reconciling things with the other shows is the biggest problem. I've already read all kinds of theories on this:

1.) that this will be a device used to plant Supergirl on Earth 1 (I'm not sure I agree--more on this later)
2.) that perhaps the new reality created STILL had Barry as The Flash and that only superficialities like his relationship with the Wests is different. You may or may not change what happens to Wells, Caitlyn, Cisco, etc. although really all of this is a bag of trouble impacting other shows, because you also have Firestorm too. You literally have to build an alternate where most of the events wound up the same due to different reasons. I'm skeptical.
3.) continuing on the last, it's pretty likely that Wells would be original Earth 1 Wells. 

But I'd prefer it was none of these.  I think the most interesting thing to do would be to place Season 3 of The Flash in a bubble. 

What do I mean?  Well, from the outside it would appear nothing's changed. Things would remain the same on the other shows. Meanwhile, on The Flash, he'd return to a wildly different reality. No chains/limits on what they can alter for this.

How would they justify this?  It's a loop. We know from the outside perspective that this all will be worked out, and thus from the perspective of the other shows nothing has changed. You can even subtly reinforce this idea by Barry showing up on one or more other shows as if nothing had changed. How you illustrate that without breaking the narrative of those shows is a little difficult admittedly, but maybe it's just implication.

So then how do you do the so-called 4 show crossover?  Here's my idea. Have the crossover be about some event that spans alternate realities--something where it's noticed and acted upon in each separately. Just invent something. A Time Storm, for example, where lightning strikes people and makes them disappear into other realities. Or random Earthquakes that seem to relate to tachyon emissions.  Some crazy doomsday physical manifestation of some deeper reality problem--it honestly doesn't matter what it is other than that it's showing up on different Earths and threatening to destroy them. 

In fact, Barry's fuckery is the cause, although they won't know this until the end of the story. Supergirl being in her own actually enhances this idea, and with Flash temporarily in his own reality, that's another world. And LoT is really easy to tweak to have them operating in a bubble reality too, the same way that Flash would be. With this setup you can really play with things.  With Supergirl as Night 1, have it first noticed there, and the episode end with the folks on her Earth generating some kind of gate to Earth 1... where she winds up in Starling City (not Central). This back ends her into meeting Green Arrow rather than having to involve The Flash yet. But then you can have the narrative jump to night 3 of the event, in the altered Central City, where the denizens of that alternate Earth have noticed whatever problem this is themselves. Perhaps you juice things up by having alternate Arrows, Black Canaries, etc. show up. Then you end the event on LoT, where Rip Hunter is the only one with the perspective to understand what's happened. He's outside of time, but also by implication outside of alternate realities, because he's well familiar with the idea of changing a timeline and that causing an Earth to copy itself.  

The resolution, whatever it is, can't fix Barry's problem. Rather I could see some situation where Rip Hunter is able to communicate with Barry and give him some vital information. But meanwhile from the perspective of the other shows, the crossover ends with Hunter being able to do something to isolate Barry's Earth remnant (no longer strictly Earth 1), in it's own temporary spacetime--shielding the other Earths.  In fact... maybe that's how you actually show that the loop WILL be closed eventually. Because at the very end of LoT, we meet a version of Barry who knows absolutely nothing about any crisis. Then you can have some real fun, because you can even fold this duplicate Barry back into The Flash show--being totally amazed at how badly his alternate has fucked things up. 

Or something like this.  The main thing is that I think LoT is the ONLY show outside of The Flash itself where I think any change should be noticed. Arrow is totally unchanged, and Supergirl is only incrementally changed in the sense that she's been given an excuse to wind up in Startling City for one episode and establish another link to the other shows.  What they won't do--either before the crossover episodes or during it--is transpose Supergirl's entire existence to Earth 1. That makes no sense in a series of shows that's worked so hard to establish a multiverse (but also ways to visit between parts of it).

Edited May 25, 2016 by Kromm

[johntfs]

One thing I'll point out is that we did see the activation of a device that could affect/destroy other universes.  Perhaps during that activation, something caused Kara's universe to merge into the CWverse.

I doubt they'll do a time bubble because they like their crossovers (and cross-promotion) too much.  I think things will be a lot like the Fourth Season of Eureka.  During that situation several character went back in time and came back to find that changes had occurred.  One character was married.  Another had a different job.  And that was it.  That was the new reality.  No reset button.

I think that's what happens to Barry.  He comes "back to the future" and finds that things have irrevocably changed and that he's lost his ability to change them back.  If Iris hates the Flash, he has to live with it.  If Caitlin is now a murderous Killer Frost, he gets to live with that, too.  If a week later his parents die in a car wreck and he's still sniffing after his sister, he lives with that.  I think at this point we can't have any more resets or takebacks.  Whatever reality exists when Barry emerges from the timestream has to be the "real world" from this point forward.

[Kromm]

50 minutes ago, johntfs said:

One thing I'll point out is that we did see the activation of a device that could affect/destroy other universes.  Perhaps during that activation, something caused Kara's universe to merge into the CWverse.

I doubt they'll do a time bubble because they like their crossovers (and cross-promotion) too much.  I think things will be a lot like the Fourth Season of Eureka.  During that situation several character went back in time and came back to find that changes had occurred.  One character was married.  Another had a different job.  And that was it.  That was the new reality.  No reset button.

I think that's what happens to Barry.  He comes "back to the future" and finds that things have irrevocably changed and that he's lost his ability to change them back.  If Iris hates the Flash, he has to live with it.  If Caitlin is now a murderous Killer Frost, he gets to live with that, too.  If a week later his parents die in a car wreck and he's still sniffing after his sister, he lives with that.  I think at this point we can't have any more resets or takebacks.  Whatever reality exists when Barry emerges from the timestream has to be the "real world" from this point forward.

I hope the Fourth Season of Eureka isn't a model. That sucked. It's also a total copout for the way they played this out.  We've been banged over the head on multiple shows how dangerous it is to fuck with the timestream, but also that if you do sometimes it reveals some sort of ultimate causality you have to stumble into. Things don't just tend to change and that's that. And then you setup a situation with the other shows where you have to back-change so many other things to wind up with identical results. Is it really likely that things would have wound up the same with Firestorm if the same situations hadn't been in Barry's life (or Wells' life) leading up to that? Would Barry have reliably been in Startling City all those exact times he was, or do we have to fudge that in each and every case some other solution without him was found that led to the same result? And then there's Supergirl. Did the Flash crossover on that never happen?  Well one assumes if Supergirl is now on Earth 1, then NONE of Supergirl Season 1 happened. How the heck do you reconcile that? There's no way to move her between Earths without massive consequences. If she's now the last sole survivor of Krypton, that changes her entire backstory. If her coming over to Earth 1 includes Superman, then the history of Earth 1 itself has to be massively different beyond minor changes in Barry's friendships, job, parent lives, etc. I mean forget how it changes Barry's situation... think how it changes ARROW.

That just seems unsolvable. If the best case is throwing away Supergirl Season 1, and retconning Superman out of existence, you're in a bad place. You need to build new motivations for Supergirl to have shown up on Earth when she did, and then NOT be a Superhero for all those years in the middle (because even Supergirl being a hero earlier changes Earth 1 deeply, since it's stated history was so superhero light before Arrow started doing his thing). 

Ergo, Supergirl has to still be on her own alternate Earth. Or this will tip the BS meter too far over. It's not like getting her to Earth 1 for team ups is that hard, even so, when we've got Earth 2 and Earth 3 already doing that (it might be interesting if Supegirl's world IS Earth 3 though and her version of The Flash simply operated in secret before he got taken--but otherwise I've just been calling her world Earth-S). 

But if Supergirl is still off on her own, then Barry's trip to Earth-S had to have happened the same, and that requires a ton of plot wanks to explain how and why he would have been in the same situation that got him there. He didn't just strap that thing on his chest without a lot of the other events that led up to why that was necessary, and almost all of those align to either his mom being dead, various versions of Harrison Wells running around, and/or something connecting to his relationship to the Wests (the most likely thing to change). 

Given all of this, it's why I think some kind of bubble/loop (my version) or "split" (Tableau's explanation) has to be it. You HAVE to have a built in explanation for things changing on the show but not affecting any other show. It has to be some variation of "it happened... but it also didn't happen", and that paradox being the real problem.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Kromm

[ParadoxLost]

I'm coming around to the idea that they'll do a four show cross over premiere and all of them will be alternate universes.  Its a lot more palatable if they just do bottle episodes on each show and I think they think this is too cool an idea to pass up the entire verse timeline changing.

Flash learns that time travel is bad.

Arrow does a what if episode.

Supergirl gets a second pilot on a new network

LoT then fixes the timeline.

Actually, maybe this is all about Supergirl.  Getting them on the same Earth is the least of their problems.  They've got to get the entire cast to move and rebuild all the sets.  So maybe, they needed an easier explanation in case they needed to recast someone with a different actor instead of dropping the character.

Edited May 26, 2016 by ParadoxLost

[Kromm]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

Actually, maybe this is all about Supergirl.  Getting them on the same Earth is the least of their problems.  They've got to get the entire cast to move and rebuild all the sets.  So maybe, they needed an easier explanation in case they needed to recast someone with a different actor instead of dropping the character.

I just don't buy that. They're not going to want to piss off the existing fanbase they counted on coming over from CBS by treating them like idiots. My gut says they're going to handle the transition fairly cleanly. People are going to stay exactly who they are on Supergirl. That show may or may not change settings, but if so it will literally be a geographical change and no more. Cast changes will be handled the old fashioned way--there is no character that is 100% irreplaceable, after all, except Kara Zor-El herself, so you literally could drop any character who's actor won't play ball. And universewise, you just can't swing integrating the universes without totally disavowing/tossing 22 episodes of Supergirl AND probably many many seasons of Arrow (I cite Arrow specifically, because it's the show of the bunch without a penchant for changing reality out from under it's characters, whereas Flash and LoT both include that as part of their premise). To me that says that Supergirl has to stay where she is, so that Arrow doesn't become a total mess that makes no sense inside it's own mythology.

[millennium]

gahh, wrong thread

Edited May 26, 2016 by millennium

[Trini]

I'm disappointed they teased both Jesse and Wally getting powers and neither did. Is Wally going to be a regular next season? I'm surprised we haven't heard anything more about the cast for Season 3. They got renewed early, and filming should start in about a month, so they should know.

[zannej]

I really hope they don't bring Supergirl in to the mix of the shows. I hope it stays separate like Gotham. While the girl who plays Kara is ok, I found the acting from the other cast members (save Callista Flockhart) to be rather poor. They made Danielle's performance look Emmy worthy by comparison.

Trini, I think there is still time for them to give Jesse and Wally powers.

[Trini]

Yeah, but I meant for this season; I thought that was how they would defeat Zoom.
-------

It sucks that Real Jay Garrick is going back to Earth-3, because Barry having an actual speedster mentor that could slap some sense into him would be welcome.

*Fringe spoilers* ahead:
I don't expect this reset to last the whole season (especially if they plan crossovers with the other shows) , but I wonder how much of it will 'stick', or if they undo it, AKA go back to just before Barry travels back in time. Fringe also did a universe reset at the end of its Season 3, and it ended up that they never actually went back to the "old" universe. I didn't like how they resolved that (and it was one of the reasons why I stopped watching), and I hope they don't do anything as drastic here*. If anything should change drastically, it should be Barry himself.

*Although that's less of a concern since

Spoiler

... this plot twist is based on Flashpoint, and Barry literally stops himself from changing the timeline in that story.

[zannej]

My guess is that they will get to a point where Barry will realize that his mother's death was the lesser of the evils and that in order to prevent something even more horrific from happening, he will have to go back and warn his younger self off from saving her- thus preserving the timeline more. But, it is possible that because he can't leave well enough alone, he might do something to change some aspects so things will be slightly different when he does return to his timeline.

I half wonder if maybe because he ignored the speedforce telling him his mother had to die that he will lose his connection to the speedforce and end up stuck there the way Eobard was while Eobard either escapes or dies or something. I suspect that the reason Eobard lost his speed was because the speedforce needed him to ensure that Barry would become the Flash. It was clear from his reaction when he couldn't understand why he couldn't keep a constant connection that he didn't understand the speedforce as an entity that makes decisions & that it was failing him because his work wasn't done.

Another thought-- What if Barry saved Nora but then Eobard got back up, stabbed her and ran off, and then young Barry came in to see a man in a red suit hovering over her & his nightmare became about the man in the red suit rather than the man in the yellow suit.

[Trini]

On 5/30/2016 at 9:42 PM, zannej said:

My guess is that they will get to a point where Barry will realize that his mother's death was the lesser of the evils and that in order to prevent something even more horrific from happening, he will have to go back and warn his younger self off from saving her- thus preserving the timeline more. But, it is possible that because he can't leave well enough alone, he might do something to change some aspects so things will be slightly different when he does return to his timeline. ...

I was thinking that maybe goes back again and lets his mother die, but this time he speaks some words of hope to his 11-year-old self.  But there's still the problem that Barry shouldn't be aware of those changes ... argh time travel headaches!

[Trini]

Prediction:

- Iris and Barry finally are officially a couple,
- *shenanigans *
- Iris learns that Barry made out with Earth-2 Iris
- Barry: "Ummmm....."
- Iris is mad for half an episode

Yes, that sounds like a sitcom cliché, but these writers, man.
 

[bmoore4026]

Anyone else think that Barry is the one going to cause "The Crisis" hinted at in the first season?

[scarynikki12]

I feel like it's a guarantee at this point.

[zannej]

My guess is that perhaps the Legends team are somewhat responsible or one of their villains is (perhaps along with Reverse Flash) and that it isn't Barry directly, but maybe something he does contributes to it. Or maybe Barry is the one who alerts them to something being wrong and he's just part of the solution.