Unspoiled Speculation: Flash of Genius

[Trini]

I figured that with the general positive reactions to the musical episode, TPTB might want to try doing another musical number or song, if not a whole episode. But with all the Emmy buzz lately, another music-themed episode seems more likely.

I'm not sure if I really want another musical since the last one was 95% filler* and had to disrupt a major storyline/relationship to make the story work; but if the writers/producers/songwriters can make the next one better, I'm all for it.
 

*(Not necessarily a bad thing by itself)

[Trini]

So Wally, Jesse, and Jay Garrick are speedsters with a connection to the speed force, so technically, they should be able to visit/communicate with Barry and vice versa, right? I know the 'rules' of the speed force are fuzzy at best, but I hope the show doesn't completely overlook this.

[johntfs]

I have to wonder if the Speed Force situation will be like the myth of Persephone.  Apparently if a speedster isn't in the Speed Force it destabilizes.  Maybe it'll end up that Jay, Wally and Jesse will have to sub for Barry during the season and then in the summer Barry returns to the SF.

[Trini]

It will interesting to see how Season 4 plays out - the team is really overpowered, even with just Barry, Wally, and Cisco. Then whoever else they add; because you know they will. I think they need to step up their villain game!

[johntfs]

Well, given how leery Barry will likely be about creating time remnants, one way to deal with Barry is to realize that fast as he is, he can't/won't be everywhere at once. 

[immortalfrieza]

On 7/27/2017 at 4:20 PM, Trini said:

It will interesting to see how Season 4 plays out - the team is really overpowered, even with just Barry, Wally, and Cisco. Then whoever else they add; because you know they will. I think they need to step up their villain game!

They tried to, but then they started throwing in a bunch of speedsters that just kept getting progressively faster requiring Barry to do the same to beat them. One of the things I really liked about this show is how for so long they kept Barry's speed and abilities down to a much more reasonable level than the comic Flash was, to the point I was able to actually buy a normal human being able to give him an actual fight, not to mention the metahumans. However, the writers have made the mistake of making Barry so insanely fast with tons of things he can do with his speed now that there's nothing sort of another speedster that could go up against him and have a ghost of a chance of winning. As a result instead they just made Barry a total idiot for 9/10ths of any given episode so the villain isn't taken out right away, and the same goes with Wally and Cisco.

Edited July 30, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[Trini]

I crunched some numbers, and if The Flash's 100th episode falls during the crossover in Season 5 (episode 8), that crossover might end up being Flash-centric.

Spoiler

... Similar to this year's crossover.

[ruby24]

Yup. And they'll want to do something special for the 100th of course, so I bet it will be more like Arrow was last year, where their particular crossover ep was far more of a singular Arrow episode overall, while the others were more in line with the crossover plot.

[Trini]

That's most likely; I just wonder if they'll be tempted to also weave it in to the crossover plot.

[Karlophe]

With the Flash wedding fully confirmed in all corners for the crossover event this year, I'm now at 99.99% certainty that their 100th episode will introduce Bart. Too soon for my taste, but the perfect time otherwise. Whether or not they choose to feature this during the crossover will probably all depend on the extent they want to use him that season - if he's going to be featured heavily with hopes of crossing over (Legends being the likeliest candidate), they'll want to introduce him to the rest of the Arrowverse.  If it's going to be a more personal story they might choose to have their 100th episode stand alone, preceding or following that years crossover...but I doubt it. Flash more than anyone likes to go big and take full advantage of the shared universe. But as always, varied mileage, speculation...and so on and so forth.

[Trini]

I've given up predicting when Flash descendants will show up, because I thought for sure it would be by the end of this season. I don't know about the 100th, but Season 5 does seem like a good time to do that.

[Trini]

I've always thought that Joe was safe from getting killed off, but only until Iris gets married. So with this random, new baby for Joe and Cecile, do we think Joe is safe for the next 8-9 months in show time?

Somewhat related; this means a marriage between Joe and Cecile is a lot more likely (and likely to happen sooner) - but not certain. Maybe around Christmas or Valentine's Day if they want to make a big deal of it.

[Trini]

From the Wally West thread:

On 11/3/2017 at 7:13 PM, johntfs said:

... On TV that stuff costs money.  So, this year instead of doing two (or more) speedsters, they'll spend money on a speedster and a stretchy dude, plus whatever they have to battle.  Figure Tuesday they had The Flash, Stretchy Sketchy Ralph, Breacher and Cisco.  So they didn't have room for anything else to fight except two thugs and a guy in a civilian helicopter.

Yeah, but they actually made it a plot point that Cisco couldn't use his powers; only Breacher used his powers in two scenes. I'm going to hate it if every episode Dibny is in that nearly everyone else can't use their powers.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

From the Wally West thread:

Yeah, but they actually made it a plot point that Cisco couldn't use his powers; only Breacher used his powers in two scenes. I'm going to hate it if every episode Dibny is in that nearly everyone else can't use their powers.

A lot of it depends on how they have him showing up and using his powers.  If he does the thing with his nose and maybe reaches across the room to snag the last bear claw before someone a lot closer gets it, that's probably cheapish.  If he turns himself into a giant trampoline to save a falling person, figure that FX will cost more.

[johntfs]

I kind if wonder if they'll get Gypsy and/or Breecher on tonight's Earth-X crossover episode.  I admit I want this just to see Danny Trejo killing the shit out of extra-dimensional Nazis.  Or. really, any kind of Nazis.  I'm not picky.

I also wonder if Iris might decide to seek out the DeVoes.  Like, "May I assume that whatever convoluted evil plot you're hatching against us will get slightly derailed if super-Nazis from another dimension take over this planet?  I can?  Awesome.  Got any thoughts on the matter?"

[johntfs]

So, no involvement of the DeVoes in the Earth-X situation.  Although it occurs to me that Iris could potentially throw a spanner into the DeVoes' plans by going to their house and giving them a flash drive with a partial history of Earth-X, perhaps from 1933-1945 with the proviso, "You'll get more of it as long as you leave my husband and friends out of whatever you're planning.  Eventually, if you wish, we can transport you there and you can put that massive brain of yours to work thinking of solutions to problems over there that desperately need to be solved."  I figure Iris is probably the only one in Team Flash clever enough to consider something like this.

Edited December 1, 2017 by johntfs

[legaleagle53]

On 12/1/2017 at 11:14 AM, johntfs said:

So, no involvement of the DeVoes in the Earth-X situation.  Although it occurs to me that Iris could potentially throw a spanner into the DeVoes' plans by going to their house and giving them a flash drive with a partial history of Earth-X, perhaps from 1933-1945 with the proviso, "You'll get more of it as long as you leave my husband and friends out of whatever you're planning.  Eventually, if you wish, we can transport you there and you can put that massive brain of yours to work thinking of solutions to problems over there that desperately need to be solved."  I figure Iris is probably the only one in Team Flash clever enough to consider something like this.

Except that it's still not clear exactly what the DeVoes' master plan even is, so trying to bribe DeVoe by promising to send him to Earth-X might not work because he would dismiss the situation on Earth-X as being utterly irrelevant to his own endgame.

Edited December 3, 2017 by legaleagle53

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Except that it's still not clear exactly what the DeVoes' master plan even is, so trying to bribe DeVoe by promising to send him to Earth-X might not work because he would dismiss the situation on Earth-X as being utterly irrelevant to his own endgame.

Yeah, it might not work, but then again it might.  My take is that instead of jumping immediately into the us vs them mindset the team should try talking to these people and maybe trying to figure out if there's some way to resolve this situation peacefully.  Maybe DeVoe just really, really, really wants Cisco's mom's recipe for Chicken Fajita Fritters.  If Cisco gives it to him he'll say "Thank you.  I loved those things.  I'll get back in touch with you lot once I've solved Global Warming, Desalinization and Cold Fusion.  So maybe a couple-three weeks." 

[Trini]

Theory about Wally in relation to the upcoming Titans series. -- I think it's a reach. If anything, I think they might be setting up a crossover on one of the other DC/CW shows, or it's just an easter egg.

----

What is most likely an easter egg is the number in Barry's mugshot in the 4.10 promo: "121984" -- Dec. 1984? Any comic stories or characters that relate to that date?

[Trini]

On 12/8/2017 at 1:23 AM, Trini said:

 

What is most likely an easter egg is the number in Barry's mugshot in the 4.10 promo: "121984" -- Dec. 1984? Any comic stories or characters that relate to that date?

 

Answering myself: It's a reference to the first issue with the Trial of the Flash arc:

Quote

The Flash Vol 1 #340;  December, 1984

[Trini]

So how long do we think the trial (and possible imprisonment) will last on the show? It's a TV trial, so it's going to be short. I'm guessing 4-5 episodes, and maybe 2-3 more if he has to go to prison. They might surprise me, but I can't see them sidelining Barry/The Flash for any extended period. ... Unless he gets a subplot in the prison itself??

Then they need the rest of the season to stop The Thinker's ultimate plan.

[ruby24]

Yeah, I agree. I think they'll have a trial in 4x10, then he'll probably be convicted (temporarily) and be in prison for maybe 3 episodes? At least 11 and 12, possibly 13. I think he'll be cleared by episode 14. No WAY does it go longer than that though, imo. 

Frankly, having him in prison/court and out of the suit (presumably) for even three episodes in a row will feel lengthy and different. So I don't believe it will go much longer than that.

Edited December 11, 2017 by ruby24

[bmoore4026]

Given the outcome of the most recent episode, I think I figured out what the Enlightening is.  All metahumans on Arrow Earth are tied invariably to The Flash (the accelerator explosion, the portal).  Well, what better way to create an entire city full of superhumans than with the death of the catalyst in a specially built electric chair, despite the show taking place in a state (and country) that no longer uses the electric chair.

Stacking the deck, The Thinker could have his special electric chair installed in the prison and then manipulate event so The Flash gets the death penalty and further manipulate circumstances to hasten the execution.  The energy released by the dying Flash will no doubt hit several people inside the prison and outside the vicinity, thus creating numerous super criminals.  An army of them, as you will.

[johntfs]

35 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

Stacking the deck, The Thinker could have his special electric chair installed in the prison and then manipulate event so The Flash gets the death penalty and further manipulate circumstances to hasten the execution.  The energy released by the dying Flash will no doubt hit several people inside the prison and outside the vicinity, thus creating numerous super criminals.  An army of them, as you will.

That could happen, but I don't see DaVoe wanting to create such an army.  He clearly despises those who use their meta-human gifts on frivolous, criminal behavior.  I think it's far more likely that he wants to give his "gift" of super-intelligence to all of humanity.

[wilnil]

17 hours ago, johntfs said:

17 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Stacking the deck, The Thinker could have his special electric chair installed in the prison and then manipulate event so The Flash gets the death penalty and further manipulate circumstances to hasten the execution.  The energy released by the dying Flash will no doubt hit several people inside the prison and outside the vicinity, thus creating numerous super criminals.  An army of them, as you will.

That could happen, but I don't see DaVoe wanting to create such an army.  He clearly despises those who use their meta-human gifts on frivolous, criminal behavior.  I think it's far more likely that he wants to give his "gift" of super-intelligence to all of humanity.

Also, Barry's already been sentenced to life without parole, and Central City may be in a state without a death penalty.

[bmoore4026]

9 minutes ago, wilnil said:

Also, Barry's already been sentenced to life without parole, and Central City may be in a state without a death penalty.

Oh, I'm sure they'll find a way to use The Thinker's (speculative) electric chair.

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Oh, I'm sure they'll find a way to use The Thinker's (speculative) electric chair.

DeVoe's more likely to want to use Barry on a treadmill to power said electric chair to use on himself for the Enlightenment.  The typical villain motives don't really apply to DeVoe.  Desire for wealth, fame and power don't work because he could have all those things already.  He's been the smartest person in the multiverse for the last four years.  He could be the richest, most famous person in the world if he wanted to be.  He could be the secret or known ruler of the world if he wanted to be.  He doesn't want to be.  He wants something else, something he believes will "save" the world.

[bmoore4026]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

DeVoe's more likely to want to use Barry on a treadmill to power said electric chair to use on himself for the Enlightenment.  The typical villain motives don't really apply to DeVoe.  Desire for wealth, fame and power don't work because he could have all those things already.  He's been the smartest person in the multiverse for the last four years.  He could be the richest, most famous person in the world if he wanted to be.  He could be the secret or known ruler of the world if he wanted to be.  He doesn't want to be.  He wants something else, something he believes will "save" the world.

And then Flash gets cleared and the DA and Judge would say something "Looks like we owe you an apology" or some shit like that and I'd would respond by carpet bombing Central City...after conveniently moving my family and loved ones to safety.  But, no, Flash will shake their hands and smile and be all "it's not your fault" AND FUCKING SHOOT ME!  I HATE FRAME UP STORIES!!!

Edited January 18, 2018 by bmoore4026

[bmoore4026]

Something just occurred to me - Since The Trickster turned up again with the Mark Hamill Trickster's henchlady from the 1990 series, I've realized this show isn't a reboot, but a continuation of the 1990 series.

Daddy Flash being played the same actor as the Flash from 1990 series is on coincidence.  What was Daddy Flash's name anyway.  I forget.  I mean, it's always possible for a father to give his son the same first name as him and be addressed by his middle name from then on.

And it's no coincidence that Barry ended up in the same cell as his father.

This has happened before.  Daddy Flash was the original Barry Allen, at one point.  And the first scarlet speedster. 

I'm blowing my own mind here.

[Trini]

I don't know how they're going to clear Barry's name and get him out of prison - and they should have a plan - but I think it would have really helped the audience with this prison arc if they had shown some clue/s that would exonerate him (or the first piece in a puzzle they'll have to solve), either in the trial episode or the next. Maybe it wouldn't have been enough to keep him from convicted, but at least Team Flash wouldn't be stuck looking so powerless and incompetent.

The speed force(?) writing might be a clue, but I think it needs to be something more obvious.

There's still that 'cerebral inhibitor' that was mentioned last season that hasn't been remembered yet - especially annoying because it was directly stated that it was used 'to stop DeVoe'.

[Trini]

Breacher shows up to ask what conditioner Cisco uses... ?

Breacher: "Tell me NOW."
Cisco: "Okay! Fine. It's a special formula I created myself. It's a secret, though."
Breacher: *DEATH GLARE*
Cisco: "Alright, alright! I can customize a batch for you, but I'll need you to give me a hair sample."
Breacher: "You'll have your sample if you can get it off my head!"
Cisco: "Are you.. going to make me fight you for it?"
Breacher: *assumes fight stance*
Cisco: *sigh*

[Previously on Earth-19]
Cynthia: "Dad, for the last time - I am not stealing his conditioner for you!"
Breacher: "Okay - I tried to do this the easy way...."

[johntfs]

One thing that's been discussed is how it seems that since Iris is Black, she has to be perfect to seem adequate.  I want them to play with that.  Like, There's Something About Mary with super-beings.  Like everyone around her pretty much accepts Iris as being "perfect" but word about her has gotten around.  And soon a bunch of aliens, extra-dimensional being and 3-eyed God-things start to show up and try woo Iris for themselves - and kill off Barry/The Flash so she'll be single again.  I want "There's Something About Iris."  

[adora721]

Theory: Barry’s mind time travels, not his body

What if Barry somehow taps into his memories of being in the Speed Force where he lived his past, present, and future all at once? He might learn how to send his consciousness back to a past version of himself to let him know about DeVoe’s plans.  So, this might explain why it seems like Barry has time traveled in the spoiler pics for the finale. Technically, it’s not “real” time travel, so there might not be negative consequences.

And it wouldn’t be something DeVoe would have expected.

[Trini]

That could be cool. I don't know why they haven't done anything with Barry's time in the speed force. Another missed opportunity.

[Trini]

So many things that need to happen in the finale:

• Stop/depower DeVoe,
• Reverse the Enlightenment,
• Cecile finally delivers the baby,
• Resolve or bring back Killer Frost,
• Restore Harry's mind,
• Redeem Marlize??
• Resurrect Ralph and/or the bus metas???
• Reveal who Mystery Girl is,
• Payoff for the lines/clues in the season's premiere,
• Set up Season 5, or the Season 5 villain/threat.

We'll see which threads get left dangling.

[wingster55]

Need to? Only about half of those "need" to.  Stopping Devoe and the enlightenment, Cecile delivering the baby, mystery girl and the s5 villain (only cause Todd said it would).

[Trini]

I know it's not something that usually gets publicized, but I'd love to know which writers are on staff for Season 5. There are at least a couple that i hope are NOT coming back.

[Trini]

Bets on how soon we get a "Run, Nora, run!" ? I think the season premiere is very likely, but I'm hoping they wait for a middle of the season, Nora-centric episode.

[Trini]

I'd love to see Capt. Singh's* reaction to meeting Nora - who is clearly a mixture of Barry & Iris' DNA, yet, is somehow only a few years younger than them. He'd have so many questions, but at the same time doesn't really want to know!

*(who I believe knows Barry is the Flash)

But I do wonder how they'll explain Nora to people outside of Team Flash. Distant cousin?

[Trini]

I was thinking about how Nora showed up at Barry & Iris' wedding, and I've got a little theory: Okay, why would Nora want to come to the ceremony that the Nazis crashed? I think that she didn't know about that part, because Barry & Iris just never mentioned it. Ever. Like the whole debacle with  the Nazis, kidnappings, and double wedding was so traumatizing, they just... don't acknowledge it. They have a few photos from before the attack happened, and for anyone who wasn't there, that's all they need to know!

I imagine Nora had QUESTIONS.

Nora: "Oh, this is so beautiful! ..."
::Nazis invade::
Nora: "Wait - WHAT! Okay, Mom and Dad have some explaining to do...." ::runs back to future::

[Trini]

On 10/31/2018 at 4:52 PM, opus said:

EW story on the injury

https://ew.com/tv/2018/10/31/jesse-l-martin-medical-leave-of-absence-the-flash/

I'm wondering what the timing of the announcement about JLM could mean. Will he be absent for the next few episodes that are scheduled to film (5.10 - 5.13?), or mostly absent from the next few episodes to air? (Although I'm sure he'll be in the 100th.)

I mean, they knew about his injury from the summer at least, and the issue with Joe was apparent two episodes in, but they only said something now.

----

In any case, I'm hoping that Joe & Cecile get married and have an extended honeymoon + visit Wally... wherever he is.

[ruby24]

I'm guessing that they said something now because he's about to be offscreen soon, so he might be gone starting in the next episode. But since they're currently filming what, episode 10? That statement made it sound like they eagerly await his return still, so he may be gone for a while. He probably hasn't come back yet.

[Trini]

Something to look forward to in the later part of the season: Zack Stentz coming back to write an episode:

[Trini]

[Trini]

From the mid-season finale thread:

Quote

Cicada said (essentially) that he'd kill himself when he was done killing every metahuman. That got me thinking about how this Cicada arc will eventually end. Every season has had the main villain die one way or another - but I wonder if that will be too sad an ending for Cicada since they've made an effort to humanize him, and he has a dependent he needs to care for. He needs to be defeated, but would they leave Grace an orphan again? Even if they find a way to 'cure' him of his powers, I feel that he'd still continue with his anti-metahuman agenda; so I think death or prison are the two options, unless they find a third option that has something of a happy ending for Grace.

Theories on how they end Cicada and his arc? I think they may try and do something a little different this year.

It might be different this year anyway, since now there's Eobard as a secondary villain.

[SimoneS]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

From the mid-season finale thread:

Theories on how they end Cicada and his arc? I think they may try and do something a little different this year.

It might be different this year anyway, since now there's Eobard as a secondary villain.

Since I think that Chris Klein has been dreadful, I hope that they wrap up his story soon, but it feels like it will drag out for the whole season. Maybe they tie him to the resolution of the Thawne and Nora story. I do hope that Nora is gone at the end of this season.

[Trini]

On 12/19/2018 at 8:08 PM, SimoneS said:

Maybe they tie him to the resolution of the Thawne and Nora story.

I feel like they have to, because it'd be too weird for the two arcs to be completely unrelated.

Klein/Cicada is okay, but the show has certainly had better villains. (My worst is still Zoom.)

Edited December 30, 2018 by Trini

[SimoneS]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

 (My worst is still Zoom.)

 

I liked Zoom. My only nitpick was that it was obviously not Teddy Spears in the Zoom outfit most of the time. Whoever was playing that role was physically bigger, weighing about 20lbs more.

Edited December 30, 2018 by SimoneS

[Trini]

The Red Death was mentioned in 5.12, so there's a good chance that's who will be next season's main villain. (A couple of articles explaining the character. (So comic spoilers.))

I don't want to speculate too much since we haven't even reached the end of the season yet; but with next season's crossover looking like it will be A Big Deal - more so than usual - I hope they hold off on the Big Bad until after the crossover. Or maybe the main villain can be a result of the crossover events. They're so bad with maintaining momentum and interest for an entire season.

[SimoneS]

After reading about the Red Death, the first thing I thought was (besides the fact they will have to change the story to omit Batman) is that the story is too dark for The Flash. However, maybe they intend to use the story to help launch Batwoman next season. Something like Batwoman and/or her Team come to Central City to help Team Flash fight the Red Death, but I haven't seen this speculation any where else.  Given that the multi-verse aspect of the Red Death and the speculation that all the earths will be merged in next season's final crisis, maybe if the Red Death happens, it happens early in the season, but that seems a lot with Team Flash working to stop Barry's disappearance.

Edited February 1, 2019 by SimoneS