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Trini

Unspoiled Speculation: Flash of Genius

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This seems obvious, but I think Wally and Caitlin are going to end up under Alchemy's sway. One wants powers so bad and one is scared of her powers. They seem like obvious targets.

Maybe I'll be wrong, but no one just calls Caitlin "Frost" when they speak of her powered persona.

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Why do I get the feeling that this current 'Flashpoint' timeline will be totally erased at some point, and WestAllen will be reset to its end of S2 not-yet-dating status?

Oh right, it must be because its been two straight episodes now that ended in a WestAllen kiss that didn't immediately get erased with time travel.  ...... either that, or I've imagined the last two episodes and they didn't really happen at all, because WA kisses are never allowed to exist past the timeline point covered in any one episode.

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Have they nixed the Jitters set? It hasn't been seen since the premiere. It's not totally necessary, of course, but it's nice to have a "hangout spot" that isn't a workplace. And it's been around for two seasons; I'll miss it, if it's really gone.

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I'm beginning to smell a rat with HR.  He's just too useless.  Let's create a tour from the explosion's POV.  And now he's going to train Wally.

I'm leaning towards time remnant Reverse Flash that said ominous things to Barry and then vanished never to be mentioned again has hitched a ride into HR.  Because who would think that they'd do that twice, but uselessness is a pretty good cover.

I don't like this version of Wells.  I just want a different version of Wells, so I'm probably reaching.

Another hair brained idea I had is that Wally is possessed by Zoom or Reverse Flash because I never trust anyone that starts talking about how they are faster than Barry at certain milestones.

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Hmmm - starting to worry about the CCPN set too....

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Last season, there was speculation that Zoom was Barry Allen that had gone evil *, and I don't know if that is who Savitar will end being, but I suspect that they may be setting up 'Dark Barry' for a Season 4 storyline.

Also there was that glimpse of Barry in jail at the end of Season 1, and they haven't revisited that Easter Egg yet.

*(There was at least one version of that in the comics, right?)

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Another thing: I think a couple people on this forum have speculated that the show may undo Flashpoint by the end of this season, but I never thought that was a serious option because - nah, they wouldn't do something THAT stupid, rebooting/deleting the entire history and/or season AGAIN.... especially after this season's theme of "You can't change timelines, Barry!" But with this thing with Iris' name off the future new article, it's starting to look more plausible.

---

Somewhat related to that, I feel that if they were to try and reset, Barry would have to go back to the porch with Iris in the Season 2 finale and smack himself. That what should have happened in the premiere instead of going back to Nora's murder scene again.

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About why* Barry was thrown to that point in the future where Iris is killed: Either it's the 'lightning rod' explanation - Barry is automatically drawn to her, where ever and whenever - or (as I've seen suggested elsewhere) the Speed Force directed him there specifically to prevent her death.

The show probably won't address the reason, but I think both of these explanations are possible.

*(well, besides ticking clock plot reasons)

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Savitar speculation:
Before the season started, when spoilers came out about how Tom Felton's character (Julian) didn't exist before Flashpoint, we didn't know how that could be. But now that we know Julian is Alchemy, and Alchemy is Savitar's servant (or whatever), I think that Savitar felt the 'disturbance in the [speed] force' with Flashpoint, so he manipulated* Julian into finding the Stone and relocating to Central City so he could mess with The Flash. So Julian Savitar would not have been here otherwise if Barry didn't draw attention to himself. 

But then I have to wonder what the circumstances were for Savitar and Flash fighting each other in some distant(?) future?

*(They still haven't explained how Savitar can get into people's heads)

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Also, now I remember where I've seen this type of season-long, ticking clock plot before: on Heroes, in season 1, where characters had to figure out how to stop New York City from being destroyed by a nuclear bomb - shown in a future vision AND seen with time travel.

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I think we'll end up with Julian dead or banished to some future point as Savitar and H. R. also dead and gone.

Then next season Tom Cavanagh will return as Dr. Henrietta Wells and go through the season with a dress, wig and falsetto voice.

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On 1/25/2017 at 3:25 PM, johntfs said:

I think we'll end up with Julian dead or banished to some future point as Savitar and H. R. also dead and gone.

Then next season Tom Cavanagh will return as Dr. Henrietta Wells and go through the season with a dress, wig and falsetto voice.

Don't give them any ideas!

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So, for this upcoming Is Iris West Gonna Die arc, I have a couple of thoughts.

  • Theory One is that they really do kill Iris off in the end, telling Barry that the future is harder to alter than the past because you can't know the events leading up to it. But, since Candice Patton is most likely sticking around, she could come back next season as an alternate version of herself.
  • Theory Two is that someone else dies in her place. It's typical of a show to have someone in danger and have the other characters try to save that person, only to have someone else killed instead. The balance of power and all that. It could be someone like Joe, who would really be a heartbreaking death for the West-Allen family. Iris would feel guilty that it was her dad instead of her, and Barry/Wally would blame themselves for not being fast enough. Or it could be someone like Julian or HR, who sacrifice themselves in some way. 
  • Theory Three is that the future that Barry saw is not as it seems. Much like the Killer Frost/Vibe fight we saw in Cisco's vision episodes ago, there's missing information there. 

Also, I do think that HR won't stick around next season and they'll bring back another Harrison Wells. It would be nice if they brought back Harry and Jesse, but since I think that they'd want another version, I'm curious to see how season 4 Harrison Wells will be. Maybe they'll turn him into a full on hero instead of yet another shady guy.

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The problem I have with Theory One (besides that I don't think they'd kill her off, even temporarily) is that, technically, this season Iris is already an alternate version of herself (thanks, Flashpoint!). A third version might be too weird.

I'm leaning more towards Theory Two - someone else will die instead. I wouldn't put it past the show to kill off Joe, but I don't think they want to let go of Jesse L. Martin quite yet. It might be one of the new characters (Julian, HR) or one of the Flashes, but then only temporarily.

Theory Three is a possibility, but I'm can't think of what the twist would be.

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With the Grodd 2-parter, the show has brought up the idea of Barry having to kill an enemy. (Even though he's done it indirectly already.) Now, if this wasn't just something for those episodes, I wonder if this will be a plot point at the end of this season? Maybe Barry ends up killing Savitar (or someone else?) in the finale, and they do "Trial of the Flash" --which they teased in Season 1-- as the Season 4 arc.

It's a possibility, but I think they would have dropped more hints by now. Currently, I'm thinking that Barry* "dies"/gets lost in the speed force in the finale, he's absent over the 'summer' in the show, and he somehow returns in the Season 4 premiere. Episode 3.16 might clear some of this up.

*(Or it could be Wally, but I think there have been more hints for Barry.)

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On 3/5/2017 at 2:56 PM, Trini said:

Currently, I'm thinking that Barry* "dies"/gets lost in the speed force in the finale, he's absent over the 'summer' in the show, and he somehow returns in the Season 4 premiere. Episode 3.16 might clear some of this up.

*(Or it could be Wally, but I think there have been more hints for Barry.)

Well, there goes that. They're not going to disappear Wally twice, so either Barry gets lost, or they go another direction.

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I do wonder when the show will reveal Savitar's identity. In Season 1 we knew who Reverse Flash was by 1.09; in Season 2 Zoom was revealed in 2.14. It looks like they might wait right up until the closing episodes (3.20? 3.21?)* for Savitar. Unlike the other villains, they at least they've reveled some of his plans and motivations earlier; and given more clues to his identity throughout the season. It's not playing out as well as RF, but waaaayyy better than Zoom.

*ETA: Probably 3.20, the 21st episode has previously been a filler-ish, 'calm before the storm' type story.

Edited by Trini

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Depending on who Savitar turns out to be, the main (only?) way to defeat him would be to stop him from being 'created' in the first place, I think. So the big battle in the finale might not be a battle at all.

And while I think Iris is still 100% safe, they may still kill off someone, but there haven't been any strong clues as to who. Hoping it's HR, though.

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This is not so much speculation but more wishful thinking.

The only way they can fix this for me is if they explain why Savitar is evil. Like REALLY give a damn good explanation and devote time to how he went CRAY RAY after he lost his Iris.

Then have IRIS confront Savitar, something along the lines of "Look at me Barry. I've accepted you're going to kill me but have the guts to look at me when you do it." 

Savitar hesitates, freezes, sees the woman he once loved so much. Then Iris stabs him and apologises that it had to end this way, maybe give him a kiss before he dies.

Aaaand I'm diving headfirst into crazy fanfic territory =P

haha I don't even ship WestAllen or get that obsessed about this show but dammit the latest development has irked me! 

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I think the key to beating Savitar comes from what future emo-Barry told Barry about "making memories."  Savitar has all of Barry's memories.  So he gets all the psychological effects of those memories that Barry does.  One thought occurred to me that having Martian Manhunter visit and instill Barry with a crippling fear of harm of hurting Iris would likely give Savitar that same fear.  Just a thought.

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I want Iris to be a key to defeating SaviBar - maybe she is the only one that can get through to him - but these showrunners love to reject greatness.

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I don't know if doing so will be the key to defeating him, but I honestly think the only one who can get through to Savitar, unravel his motivation, and explain how he came to be is Barry. "Know yourself," as the new poster says. It almost gives me hope that they'll do it justice. 

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On 5/10/2017 at 0:13 AM, doram said:

From the little that made sense in this story --- "This" Savitar can only exist by Barry creating a time remnant. That is one of the events in this time loop. So maybe Barry should ... not create a time remnant? Or any time remnants? The solution is so simple, I don't understand why no one brought it up. 

I'd assume that since Savitar is Barry, then he can also create he necessary time remnants if need be.  Honestly when I watch the show and they get into the time/physics stuff, I hear Rick Sanchez saying "What about the reality where Hitler cured cancer?  The answer is 'Don't think about it.'"

Really, I'd like to see Cisco channel a bit of Rick now and then.

Barry: "Cisco, where did you send Heat-monger?"

Cisco: "He's on a planet full of methane.  'scuse me, I gotta take a shit."

Edited by johntfs

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Unlike some of the other early-renewal shows, The Flash hasn't made any cast announcements. I figure they're trying to avoid spoiling a development in the finale... one that would mean a major cast change? Is someone leaving? Getting bumped down to recurring/guest star? Or getting bumped up to a regular?

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1 hour ago, Trini said:

Unlike some of the other early-renewal shows, The Flash hasn't made any cast announcements. I figure they're trying to avoid spoiling a development in the finale... one that would mean a major cast change? Is someone leaving? Getting bumped down to recurring/guest star? Or getting bumped up to a regular?

Or just simply to avoid confirming right now that yes, Candice Patton is coming back as Iris, so no, Iris isn't really dead.  Or at least isn't going to stay dead.  Figure it's something similar for Danielle Panabaker in that no, Caitlin isn't going to die or go to supers prison, or at least probably isn't going to stay in supers prison.

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Likewise for Tom Felton.  I did find it odd that Julian was missing from the last episode but will evidently be a part of the season finale on Tuesday.

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They're probably waiting until after the finale airs. Major announcements will start in June, I'm sure.

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1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

Likewise for Tom Felton.  I did find it odd that Julian was missing from the last episode but will evidently be a part of the season finale on Tuesday.

I'm really not counting on him coming back.  Thanks to Harry Potter franchise, Tom Felton is probably a bigger name than anyone else in this show except maybe Jesse L Martin or possibly Danielle Panabaker.  Even with them, Law and Order's been gone for seven years and Danielle is more of a "Hey, it's that girl" guest star types than anything else.  Everyone and his brother still knows Draco Malfoy.  The Flash was really lucky to get him. 

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The Flash was lucky to have Tom Felton but I really hope Julian's run ends with this season. He was just one more white man brought in for Caitlin's sake, for the show to cater to at the expense of their more important characters.

If Felton stays for next season, my only prayer is that he has a half-season run that coincides with Killer Frost being the 'first' Big Bad of the season. She gets 'cured' by the mid-season and becomes Caitlin. She and Julian decide to leave Central City and Team Flash and live happily ever after off our screens.

I hope Cavanaugh and whatever iteration of Wells he's playing goes along with them. Harry from Earth-2 can succumb to his terminal illness and die for reals. 

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{this is assuming someone was 'morgrified' to look like Iris at the end of 3.22...}

I want to document this as having guessed right - in case it turns out that way - but instead of 'Iris' being HR, I'm going with Harry [E2!HW] instead.

Remember a few episodes ago when he told Wally & Jessie that he was sick, but Jessie blew up on him for just making it up to keep her with him, and then he basically capitulated that it was made up but in the end 'let her go' to make her happy?  Well, what if he was really sick & dying, with no cure for it??

Would play on the trope of "making my death mean something",  IE  'the tragic hero'.

Edited by iRarelyWatchTV36
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I hope Wally gets a Flash costume now. My preference would be full cowl/blue lightning. And that he gets to keep the name once Barry inevitably returns.

More Kadabra and Rogues please - as the main season 5 focus.

Edited by Potanical Pardon

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Mostly joking but Iris and Julian could turn to each other for comfort.  Julian is a CSI.  And kind of nerdy hot.  And has that British accent.  Also, Iris was born in 1990 I think so she would have grown up with Harry Potter books and movies.  Plus she's a writer.  I bet she wrote a lot of Draco Malfoy fan fiction.  Like, a lot of it.  Yeah, I know about the Snow-Barry stuff, but Tom Felton and Candice Patton would be smoking together.  Like, center of the sun hot.

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2 hours ago, johntfs said:

Mostly joking but Iris and Julian could turn to each other for comfort.  Julian is a CSI.  And kind of nerdy hot.  And has that British accent.  Also, Iris was born in 1990 I think so she would have grown up with Harry Potter books and movies.  Plus she's a writer.  I bet she wrote a lot of Draco Malfoy fan fiction.  Like, a lot of it.  Yeah, I know about the Snow-Barry stuff, but Tom Felton and Candice Patton would be smoking together.  Like, center of the sun hot.

I wish it weren't even possible, but I could actually see the show go there.  Network would love it, if nothing else.

Wouldn't that be the perfect (to them) CW thing to do?  Combine Iris & Julian starting something, at the same time that both Barry & Caitlin come back, thus instead of a 'love triangle' creating a 'love trapezoid' of sorts.   Oh-Mylanta, the spew-inducing soap opera drama that potentially awaits. 

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On 5/24/2017 at 3:21 AM, johntfs said:

... but Tom Felton and Candice Patton would be smoking together.  Like, center of the sun hot.

I mean, I would watch this show; but I really don't think the show would go there. (Have Iris and Julian even talked directly to each other more than twice?)

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How soon will Barry be out of the speed force?
I say by the end of the Season 4 premiere -- if not sooner. I'd be surprised if they draw it out longer. Unlike Flashpoint, I don't think Barry in the speed force needs to be a multi-episode arc. However, they still need to have Barry(/Grant) in the episode, so I expect to see scenes of how he's been serving his time in the speed force. I just hope most of the premiere is about the Team without Barry/The Flash. Maybe they could also flashbacks in the season to the months without Barry.

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I'm going to guess the first episode of season 4 will be Barry free. His name will be mentioned constantly, of course, particularly by Joe and Iris, but the story and the Flash heroics will be courtesy of Wally. Then the episode will end with some big threat and the whole gang will say something along the lines of "We need Barry back". The second episode will then focus either on Barry in the speed force, with Wally, Jay and/or Jessie coming in to try and get the speed force to free him, or else about Wally trying to find a way into the speed force to Barry..

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2 hours ago, KirkB said:

I'm going to guess the first episode of season 4 will be Barry free. His name will be mentioned constantly, of course, particularly by Joe and Iris, but the story and the Flash heroics will be courtesy of Wally. Then the episode will end with some big threat and the whole gang will say something along the lines of "We need Barry back". The second episode will then focus either on Barry in the speed force, with Wally, Jay and/or Jessie coming in to try and get the speed force to free him, or else about Wally trying to find a way into the speed force to Barry..

This would make sense; but after the whole 'Flashpoint lasting only one episode', I just don't think they have the guts.

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13 hours ago, KirkB said:

I'm going to guess the first episode of season 4 will be Barry free. His name will be mentioned constantly, of course, particularly by Joe and Iris, but the story and the Flash heroics will be courtesy of Wally. Then the episode will end with some big threat and the whole gang will say something along the lines of "We need Barry back". The second episode will then focus either on Barry in the speed force, with Wally, Jay and/or Jessie coming in to try and get the speed force to free him, or else about Wally trying to find a way into the speed force to Barry..

Nah, Grant Gustin's the star.  There'll have to be at least a little Barry, maybe right at the end.

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Okay, fair points. I'll revise my guess. We'll spend 95% of the episode watching Wally doing badly against whatever villain of the week they're dealing with, or perhaps doing well but ending up with a looming threat to the city anyway, only to reveal at the end someone has been watching all this on a 'screen' of sorts. It's Barry, of course, who turns to his mother (or whoever the speed force is pretending to be that day) and says "I have to go back."

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Also, I assume that Speed Force storm in the finale will produce some new villains, but I hope it produces some good guys too.

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54 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

... I still REALLY think the show would be better off by not introducing the Big Bad to the characters until the last six episodes or so, and spend most of the season on fun, villains of the week stuff. But I guess that thought just won't sink in and they desperately want to stay with the Buffy formula. It doesn't work well on this show though- it puts a cloud of doom over the season if they know they're dealing with a bad guy for 23 episodes that they can't defeat until May.

Still, I at least hope his goal isn't focused on Barry personally and more on Central City or something. 

I think mid-season (after the Christmas break) is a good point to introduce the Big Bad; less time for them to artificially draw things out. Plus, with the yearly crossover, it would be better to start an arc after they don't  have to worry about syncing up with the other shows. Although I think a season-long villain or threat can work. But the show really needs to shake up the formula it has gotten stuck in.

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Right. I think the Mayor in Season 3 of Buffy was also a season long Big Bad, but you're right, they did have seasons where they tried to do other things.

I just think these guys need to vary it up, and given that The Flash is actually at its best when it's light, fun, funny and even cheesy at times, they need to play to those strengths, which imo requires more lighter kinds of adventures and threats, at least for the majority of the season. That means it ought to cater to the style of a more old-fashioned kind of superhero show, which used to be pretty episodic, villain of the week kind of stuff.

Obviously the character relationships, etc. is ongoing throughout the season, since that part has changed since those old shows. But I think this is the kind of show that would benefit from a more old-school approach overall, in terms of threats.

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10 minutes ago, doram said:

The thing is, I think that even though the Mayor was a season's Big Bad, it wasn't quite like Grace and the Master because he wasn't identified as a threat to Team Good until mid-season. In fact, if I remember correctly, the first 5 episodes of season 3 were mostly about Buffy's running away from Sunnydale, then Angel's return (and the first appearance of the First Evil), and the appearance of Faith. I don't think the audience even sees the Mayor until episode 6 or 7, and while we get to see both sides of the story - Team Good and Team Evil - Team Good are unaware of what the Mayor truly is until mid-season.  Meanwhile, Gloria, the Master and the First Evil are identified as threats early in their respective seasons and the entire season's arc is focused on how to thwart them. 

Exactly! And that's a good way to do it, imo. Let the audience in on it early maybe, but don't have the characters figure things out until it's at a point where you can run the Big Bad story through without getting tired of it or having to sideline him until the finale.

That's kinda what happened in Season 1 of The Flash too. They don't find out Harrison Wells is RF until pretty late in the season, wasn't it? The audience knew he was a bad guy far earlier, but we didn't dwell on it until that story really got going later on. Which was a good thing, it allowed most of the first season to be fun, funnier, lighthearted episodes where Barry had fun with his powers and being a hero. They had the ongoing plot of him wanting to find the man in yellow, but that was pretty abstract/mysterious until it could be tied into Wells later.

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I'm just hoping that whoever the next Big Bad of the season is that he's not 3 things in particular:

1. Some insanely smart villain like The Thinker or whoever that spends the whole season just manipulating Team Flash. Not that the villain can't be smart, but the only way some super intelligent villain EVER ends up being used is that they don't succeed at outsmarting and manipulating the protagonists because they are actually smart, they just do something a 5 year old could see through and rely upon the protagonists being really REALLY mindnumbing stupid all the time just so the villain can win. Arrow already had the same thing happen with Prometheus and I don't want to see it happening now. If they DO use such a villain the writers have to be very careful with them, they can't make them so smart they know things they have no way of possibly knowing and they have to still be smart enough that they can even fool the audience as to what exactly they are going to do at any given moment. If the audience can't guess whatever the villain has planned there's no reason for the audience to expect Team Flash to either.

2. Being practically invincible for 99% of the season effortlessly kicking Barry and the rest of Team Flash's asses with the 1% coming just in time for the finale so Team Flash can finally beat them. All the former supervillains regularly kicking Barry's ass over and over every single season was annoying. In fact, I've seen a similar trend with basically every season long villain they've had on these DC superhero shows. It's not that the villain can't be designed specifically to counter Team Flash, but that no matter how powerful or well prepared he is to take down Team Flash it must always seem like Team Flash has a genuine chance against the villain anytime he appears, and not just because Team Flash boosted Barry's speed or weakened the villain, but both at their respective full and capped potential. Let's make the win/lose ratio much more back and forth with the plots too, the heroes win a couple episodes, the villain wins 1 or two after, it's indecisive another episode, that sort of thing.

3. Oh, and don't try to hide who the villain is for half the season again, just reveal it right away like they did with Thrawne/Wells but also DON'T make it another member of Team Flash for the fourth time, just focus on developing the villain throughout the season, show their motivations and struggles opposite Team Flash.

One thing I'd want to see is let's get a supervillain team going to counter the fact that half of Team Flash is metahumans now. The writers are either going to have to do that or depower most of the team in order to allow the plots to make sense because otherwise it'll quickly grow even more ridiculous than it already is that Barry is the only one to actually deal with any given threat of the week while Cisco, Catlin, and Wally just stand around doing nothing to help or worse have to come up with some lame excuse to keep one or more of them out of the action every week. Writers have to build the plots and threats around the capabilities of their characters, not the other way around.

Edited by immortalfrieza
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Maybe actually show the villain's origin story, instead of it only taking up one scene, or one monologue. Or have the villian's origin be a mini-arc.

Also, have the villain's motivation be strong and clear, and revealed sooner than the last episodes of the season.

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1 hour ago, Trini said:

Also, have the villain's motivation be strong and clear, and revealed sooner than the last episodes of the season.

Come to think of it, have the villain actually HAVE a motivation. All the Big Bads of the previous seasons and quite a few on other DC superhero shows motivation just boils down to "HE'S INSANE!!!" Have the villain have legitimate grievances with the protagonists and whomever else they're trying to harass however far they take that retribution, and ones that aren't invalidated and especially aren't made hypocritical by the actions of the villain himself. Prometheus is from Arrow but is a good example, he was pissed at Oliver for killing his Dad and wanted to have Oliver confront that Oliver enjoys killing, fine, but instead of just focusing his attention on Oliver in particular and Team Arrow in general he went around slaughtering innocent and not so innocent people largely just for the hell of it which killed any sense that Prometheus was anything but just completely nuts. Prometheus would have been MUCH better of a villain (and his minon's betrayal would have made MUCH more sense) and he would have a leg to stand on if he wasn't far worse than Oliver has ever been. A good villain is either so awesome or so morally correct or both that you want to actually root for him to win, and The Flash as thus far completely failed to provide a villain like that.

Edited by immortalfrieza
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Can we just have some villains that create real stakes for the city?  Remember Weather Wizard and the tidal wave?  Captain Cold and the train?  Can we have villains that expand the scope of the show beyond fires that the flash puts out?  Show us the rest of the city show!  I miss seeing Vancouver.

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2 minutes ago, doram said:

I would even like the villain not to have any grievance with Barry for a change. There's no vendetta. There's no revenge. There's no pre-existing or pre-ordained enmity. He's just a simple villain making his way around the multiverse and Barry and Team Flash keep getting away.

I would like this too. I want a villain who's targeting the city and its citizens for a change and needing to get Barry out of the way for that. We need to see Barry be the hero of the people more, like that episode with the train this season. More of that, please.

I'm tired of personal vendettas against Barry himself.

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51 minutes ago, doram said:

I would even like the villain not to have any grievance with Barry for a change. There's no vendetta. There's no revenge. There's no pre-existing or pre-ordained enmity. He's just a simple villain making his way around the multiverse and Barry and Team Flash keep getting away.

I'll third this.  For somebody that comes across as a basically nice, fun, likeable guy, Barry Allen has a bunch of people across time who just hate the hell out of him.  He even hated himself after a fashion.

I want villains more like Season One Captain Cold.  Professional supervillains who only go after Barry and company because they're interfering in his goals and agenda.

Villain: "Hey, yeah, Flash?  Listen, I've got Iris, Joe, Cecily, her daughter and Julian in deathtraps in different areas of the city.  You can save them or come after me.  Sorry to do the melodrama thing, but you're kind of in my way and I've got shit to do.  Have fun saving your peeps if you can.  Laters."

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5 hours ago, doram said:

I would even like the villain not to have any grievance with Barry for a change. There's no vendetta. There's no revenge. There's no pre-existing or pre-ordained enmity. He's just a simple villain making his way around the multiverse and Barry and Team Flash keep getting away.

Yeah, that's part of what I mean by a villain having legitimate grievances with Team Flash, to exist separately or even as a consequence of Team Flash's actions but only opposed to them because the villain has a goal and Team Flash gets in the way of it. With Reverse Flash and Savitar their reason for being Barry's enemy boil down to "I'm your enemy because the timeline says I will be your enemy so I became your enemy" circular logic. Hell, out of the 3 Zoom was the only season long Big Bad that wanted to go after Barry just because Zoom wanted to be the only Speedster and steal his speed to save his own life, then decided to destroy the multiverse except Earth 1 just because it's the easiest way to accomplish his goal.

However, by legitimate grievances I also mean like a villain who hates Team Flash because they've wronged him personally somehow and/or keep getting in the way of their retribution against someone who has wronged them, with that wronging said villain wasn't themselves at fault for. For instance, I think Savitar would have been a much better villain and tied into the actual consequences of Flashpoint much better had he simply been some random Speedster guy from the Flashpoint universe who survived reversing the change to the timeline and was simply after Barry for effectively destroying an entire universe just to save some kid who Barry doesn't even have a relation to and doesn't even know from Adam in that universe.

Edited by immortalfrieza

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Instead of the villain taking a personal dislike to Barry/Team Flash, suppose Team Flash gets obsessively angry at a particular villain who hurts one or more of their members/associates in the course of avoiding punishment for his crimes.

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I wonder how everyone will explain Barry's absence? Will he be declared dead, or missing? Good thing Julian's there or there'd be no CSIs at all for Central City! (Although it still hasn't been confirmed if Tom Felton is coming back or not. He had "special guest star" status in Season 3.)

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