TCM: The Greatest Movie Channel

[AuntiePam]

Here's a shameful confession:  I've always thought Osborne was just a talking head, that he was hired by TCM because of his good looks, charm, intelligence -- and that his film knowledge came from doing a little bit of research before introducing a film.  I had no idea of his background, that he's probably the main reason TCM was so successful, that he actually knew so many of the people involved in classic movies.  I've always appreciated him for his love and respect for old movies, but I didn't know it came to him naturally, that it was his life. 

[voiceover]

I'd seen the Peter O'Toole "Live from TCM Festival" the first time it aired.

I'd forgotten what a dead-on, hilarious Omar Sharif impression he pulls off.  Worth the price of admission.

The Jewison* interview was a first screening for me, and I just ate it up with a spoon.  I totally get why it was chosen for this weekend.

*No doubt Norman would lol at the fact that autocorrect keeps turning his name to "Jewishness".

[Rinaldo]

6 hours ago, voiceover said:

The Jewison* interview was a first screening for me, and I just ate it up with a spoon.  I totally get why it was chosen for this weekend.

I recorded and watched several of them, but alas not this one. (And it doesn't seem to be available for rewatch.) Can you briefly give some examples of what made it special, or was it just packed with stories?

I imagine a prize anecdote was his being given Fiddler on the Roof on the mistaken (if understandable) assumption that he was Jewish.

[Milburn Stone]

5 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

I imagine a prize anecdote was his being given Fiddler on the Roof on the mistaken (if understandable) assumption that he was Jewish.

Is that actually so--that this is the reason he got the Fiddler assignment? I mean I'm well aware that he was popularly thought to be Jewish, but I've always assumed the Mirisch Brothers (who made the film for release by United Artists) knew that he wasn't. Walter Mirisch hadn't just fallen off the turnip truck; he'd been making big movies for UA since Some Like It Hot. And had already worked with Jewison on three big films before Fiddler. Being Jewish myself, I find my credulity strained that any power player in Hollywood doesn't know who's Jewish and who isn't. But hey, if it's so, I'll have to re-evaluate that.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[voiceover]

Yes: the Jewison interview was heavily anecdotal.  He included the Fiddler story -- I got the impression that he's certain that he was offered the role because he had the chops, but, unmmmm..."Of course we knew you weren't really Jewish!" (uncomfortable pause as the producers looked at each other).  Also why he cast Topol & not Zero Mostel (authentic!).  Tales of Steve McQueen & Edward G Robinson from Cincinnati Kid, and a decent imitation of Robinson, in his response to Jewison's explanation as to why he had fewer speeches (along the lines of, "You're the champ; you don't need to explain yourself.")

And how Moonstruck  (my favorite of his) was the first/only movie where he got to cast everyone *he* wanted to cast.  And how he considered In the Heat of the Night, A Soldier's Story, and Hurricane a trilogy about racism, and he thought Denzel's performance as Carter the finest he'd ever given.

Gosh!  So many stories.  I hope that they'll put it into their rotation.  

[Rinaldo]

That sounds wonderful, @voiceover -- I sure wish I'd DVR'd it. (I just told myself "you can't record everything in a weekend, let this one go!" More fool I.)

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Is that actually so--that this is the reason he got the Fiddler assignment? 

I didn't say it was the sole reason. Clearly he had the track record and the skills to have earned the job. But there seems to have been some vague feeling among the bosses of "and it'll be in safe hands in that respect, too," without really checking into his affiliations. Or maybe Jewison himself has polished it into a better anecdote over the years, as we all do with our favorite memories without quite realizing it. 

[voiceover]

11 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

 Clearly he had the track record and the skills to have earned the job. But there seems to have been some vague feeling among the bosses of "and it'll be in safe hands in that respect, too," without really checking into his affiliations. Or maybe Jewison himself has polished it into a better anecdote over the years, as we all do with our favorite memories without quite realizing it. 

Yeah, I got both vibes.  Probably one of those moments I need to watch more than once.

On the other hand, it may have been just as ambiguous as I remember.

[Milburn Stone]

3 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

That sounds wonderful, @voiceover -- I sure wish I'd DVR'd it. (I just told myself "you can't record everything in a weekend, let this one go!" More fool I.)

I didn't say it was the sole reason. Clearly he had the track record and the skills to have earned the job. But there seems to have been some vague feeling among the bosses of "and it'll be in safe hands in that respect, too," without really checking into his affiliations. Or maybe Jewison himself has polished it into a better anecdote over the years, as we all do with our favorite memories without quite realizing it. 

I didn't mean to suggest that you were suggesting it was the sole reason. No one could think Jewison unqualified for the job. I just personally find it difficult to believe Walter Mirisch believed Jewison to be Jewish, even if the assumption was abroad in the land that Jewison was. I could be wrong! But my gut tells me to go with "makes for an anecdote so good it's irresistible."

Edited March 20, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[bmoore4026]

Well, tonight's the night they start their movie marathon/March Madness contest on who teh mose evulz iz.  It's stupid because we all know Norman Bates is going to win...even though there are more evil characters out there.  Seriously, I thought the villain from Homicidal was more compelling and sinister.

[psychoticstate]

This is an embarrassing admission given that I am obsessed with classic Hollywood, especially during the 1920s and 1930s but I just watched The Sheik for the first time last night.  Wow!  

Sure, it's what we might call campy in bits but Valentino was insanely gorgeous.  The shot of him asleep toward the end was breathtaking.  It's easy to understand how women of the 1920s went crazy for him.   When he's on screen, you really can't take your eyes off him or focus on anything else. 

I didn't know that Adolphe Menjou was in the film so I was happy to see him in one of his earlier roles.  I thought he did a good job.

Agnes Ayres -- another silent film actress that has been mostly forgotten today. 

The storyline is fairly predictable but it was still a joy to watch.  I loved the accompanying piano music.  It would probably be incredible to see on the big screen. 

[AuntiePam]

Just watched the Betty Hutton Private Screening.  I've always liked her -- saw Annie Get Your Gun and The Greatest Show on Earth in the theater (I'm old) -- but I'm not familiar with her older movies.  Robert's description of Betty as someone with "her heart on her sleeve" was spot on.  Those types of people usually put me off because the heartfelt statements and broad gestures seem phony to me (and the ones who talk about finding God are even harder to believe) -- but not Betty.  Everything about her was honest and truly from the heart.  My face was wet when the interview was over.

[voiceover]

@psychoticstate:

If you like him in The Sheik, then run-don't-walk to Son of the Sheik.  In a tour de force dual role, he reprises the character (Agnes is back too!), and plays his progeny.  And his make-out scene with Vilma Banky is melt-the-screen fabulous.  I have one of the stills from that segment hanging in my kitchen.  (He's who I have my morning coffee with!)

Just amazing work as both men. During a long father/son sulkfest, Agnes lovingly points out to Sheik Sr: "Wow honey, remember when you were That Guy too?"

I have previously bored on at length re: this subject.  Along with John Gilbert's Bardelys the Magnificent, hands down, the best of the romantic adventure silents.

[Charlie Baker]

I was of two minds with the RO tribute--it would have been nice if they had included more of the interviews he did, but the fact that they cycled through the same group made it more convenient to catch their choices.  So it was good to get to rewatch Debbie Reynolds, Liza Minnelli, Alec Baldwin interviewing Robert. I caught up with the Jewison and Arkin interviews, which were quite wonderful, saw the Luise Rainer appearance for the second time, and the Peter O'Toole one awaits me on the DVR.  So pretty much wonderful and fitting selections. It would be great if there could be some kind of recurring spot in the schedule to show all his interviews eventually. 

[psychoticstate]

10 hours ago, voiceover said:

@psychoticstate:

If you like him in The Sheik, then run-don't-walk to Son of the Sheik.  In a tour de force dual role, he reprises the character (Agnes is back too!), and plays his progeny.  And his make-out scene with Vilma Banky is melt-the-screen fabulous.  I have one of the stills from that segment hanging in my kitchen.  (He's who I have my morning coffee with!)

Just amazing work as both men. During a long father/son sulkfest, Agnes lovingly points out to Sheik Sr: "Wow honey, remember when you were That Guy too?"

I have previously bored on at length re: this subject.  Along with John Gilbert's Bardelys the Magnificent, hands down, the best of the romantic adventure silents.

Thanks for the info, @voiceover!!  I am going to see if TCM is airing Son of the Sheik anytime soon.  If not, I'm hitting Amazon.  

I haven't seen many of John Gilbert's silents, sadly, but I absolutely love Downstairs.  It's an underrated gem of a movie that did not get love when it came out in 1932 but it was so ahead of its time.  I think it should have cemented Gilbert's career in talkies.  I'm sorry that didn't happen. 

[Silver Raven]

2 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

Thanks for the info, @voiceover!!  I am going to see if TCM is airing Son of the Sheik anytime soon.  If not, I'm hitting Amazon.  

I haven't seen many of John Gilbert's silents, sadly, but I absolutely love Downstairs.  It's an underrated gem of a movie that did not get love when it came out in 1932 but it was so ahead of its time.  I think it should have cemented Gilbert's career in talkies.  I'm sorry that didn't happen. 

The Son of the Sheik is in Youtube:

 

 

So is The Sheik:

 

[AuntiePam]

I turned off the Luise Rainer screening a few minutes in.  One of my pet peeves is people -- especially celebrities -- who expect special treatment just because they've reached an advanced age.  Rainer appeared to be one of those.  Maybe I should have kept watching, but it ticked me off that she pretended that her hearing aid failed. 

The Jewison interview was very entertaining.  In the Heat of the Night is the one movie that has a permanent place on the DVR.  There are some plot holes but the performances are so good, I can watch it over and over.

[voiceover]

3 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

 

I haven't seen many of John Gilbert's silents, sadly, but I absolutely love Downstairs.  It's an underrated gem of a movie that did not get love when it came out in 1932 but it was so ahead of its time.  I think it should have cemented Gilbert's career in talkies.  I'm sorry that didn't happen. 

Yup.  He went from Romantic Scoundrel to Sleazy Dickhead in one movie. And still, I'd've hit that.

24 minutes ago, AuntiePam said:

I turned off the Luise Rainer screening a few minutes in.  One of my pet peeves is people -- especially celebrities -- who expect special treatment just because they've reached an advanced age.  Rainer appeared to be one of those.  Maybe I should have kept watching, but it ticked me off that she pretended that her hearing aid failed. 

Eh.  Maybe at 70, or even 75, but I can handwave anything once you've hit the century mark.  ("You woke up this morning!!  What can I do for you, Miss Rainer??")

[psychoticstate]

23 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Yup.  He went from Romantic Scoundrel to Sleazy Dickhead in one movie. And still, I'd've hit that.

 

ME TOO. 

1 hour ago, Silver Raven said:

The Son of the Sheik is in Youtube:

 

 

 

So is The Sheik:

 

 

THANK YOU!!!

[Rinaldo]

1 hour ago, voiceover said:

Eh.  Maybe at 70, or even 75, but I can handwave anything once you've hit the century mark.  ("You woke up this morning!!  What can I do for you, Miss Rainer??")

I agree. Plus, people of advanced age (of whom I'll be one in the not too distant future, and my mother who just turned 97 is one right now; she's doing great, but not everything is perfect every moment) are subject to all kinds of unpredictable fluctuations in their abilities, and I wouldn't take the word of any non-omniscient bystander on it -- even Robert Osborne. Maybe her hearing aid did shut down in those few minutes, or maybe the hearing excuse was a cover-up for momentarily not comprehending a question (it's easier to admit to physical failings than mental ones), or he may have been honestly mistaken. I can't know, and we all (if we're lucky) going to end up in similar shape one day, so I'm inclined to be generous.

[AuntiePam]

45 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

Maybe her hearing aid did shut down in those few minutes, or maybe the hearing excuse was a cover-up for momentarily not comprehending a question (it's easier to admit to physical failings than mental ones), or he may have been honestly mistaken. I can't know, and we all (if we're lucky) going to end up in similar shape one day, so I'm inclined to be generous.

The first words out of her mouth were that she'd "lost" her hearing aid -- he hadn't even asked a question.

Osborne said that Rainer had no problem hearing after the interview was over, when they were in a crowded space with lots of noise.   I don't know why she'd fake it -- the hearing aid failure.  Maybe she was afraid the interview would be about things she couldn't remember.  Maybe she didn't know the kind of interviewer Osborne was -- that he'd be solicitous and wouldn't put her on the spot.   ??   If that was the case, she should have turned down the invitation.  It just seemed manipulative. 

(I just turned 72, and I don't expect to get away with anything that I couldn't have gotten away with at 30 or 60.  Seniority isn't an excuse to be rude or selfish.) 

[bluepiano]

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 6:50 AM, Milburn Stone said:

Curious...did Paulette Goddard ever do a role that showed she had the dramatic range to handle Scarlett O'Hara? I know her from comedies. (And I know she was in a Chaplin film, which I've never seen, so maybe that showed she had the dramatic acting chops.)

Don't know about her dramatic chops, but watching Modern Times again the other day I was struck by just how incredibly lovely she was. As the barefoot homeless girl she was a great counterpart to Charlie's Tramp, and I thought she gave a moving performing.

My wife and I watch a lot of old movies on DVD or online, and for years now, every time one ends we jokingly say that we're waiting for Robert Osborne to come on. So sad that he's gone, even though it had been expected for some time.

I never failed to enjoy his comments. I loved that he never really tried to make any earth shaking pronouncements about the movies. Instead, he offered small insights and insider anecdotes that you were not likely to get anywhere else. Ultimately, it's all about the movies, but for me, like many others I'm sure, Robert Osborne was a huge part of what made TCM special.

Edited March 22, 2017 by bluepiano

[Calvada]

The interview with Norman Jewison was the one I had not seen before of those that aired this weekend.  I've only been able to watch the first half of it thus far, but it is very entertaining.  It grabs you from the start as he talks about from the time he was a young child, he wanted to be a Jew, how people assumed he was Jewish and he got beat up by other kids who thought he was Jewish, and how his mother had to tell him he wasn't Jewish!  Then early in his career, it was suggested he change his name, and he proposed "Christianson . . . Irving Christianson."   

It made me very curious about his book, and I went online to request it from the library.  There's only one copy in the system, and it was already on hold.  Perhaps another TCM viewer? 

[SeanC]

Evidently the Production Code Office was asleep during the production of The Little Foxes, since Bette Davis totally gets away with letting her husband die.  One of Wyler's best films, and remarkably bleak for a film of the period.

[Rinaldo]

The film's composer, Meredith Willson (yes, the Music Man guy) wrote in one of his autobiographies that he was distressed when he screened the film and realized that she got away with it, and the good people didn't prevail. So he put his song "Never Too Weary To Pray" over the closing credits, with its message of good triumphing over the sinner, so he could at least imply retribution to that extent.

Seriously, though, I too wonder how they managed to defy the Production Code to that extent. It was a well-known and respected play, but that never mattered on other occasions, and some ludicrous rewrites happened. Not this time, though.

[Wiendish Fitch]

R

7 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

The film's composer, Meredith Willson (yes, the Music Man guy) wrote in one of his autobiographies that he was distressed when he screened the film and realized that she got away with it, and the good people didn't prevail. So he put his song "Never Too Weary To Pray" over the closing credits, with its message of good triumphing over the sinner, so he could at least imply retribution to that extent.

Seriously, though, I too wonder how they managed to defy the Production Code to that extent. It was a well-known and respected play, but that never mattered on other occasions, and some ludicrous rewrites happened. Not this time, though.

Well, at least the daughter got away after telling off Regina. So there's that.

But, yeah, The Little Foxes, marvelously brutal film, one of Bette Davis's finest.

[Rinaldo]

My high school did The Little Foxes for its fall play my junior year. I was the student assistant to our faculty director. (One of my biggest jobs was running lines with our Horace, who was cast for type rather than talent and was apparently never going to study the part on his own.) Anyway, we all loved working on the play, but our parents didn't enjoy it when they came to see it. It's not a feel-good sort of show.

[bmoore4026]

Well, The Lord of the Rings: Return of the King is on tonight.  Wonder if I'll be bawling my head off at the end like I did the first time?

Update: I did!!!!

Edited March 25, 2017 by bmoore4026
The ending got to me again

[Milburn Stone]

Okay, this "theme" has me stumped. On Tuesday night, TCM will be kicking off the evening with The Three Faces of Eve, in which Joanne Woodward plays a woman with multiple personality disorder. It ends the evening with Lizzie, in which Eleanor Parker plays a woman with three personalities. Pretty obvious thematic connection, wouldn't you say? But in between those two movies, it's showing Wilson, with Alexander Knox. Did our 28th president have multiple personality disorder too?

[bmoore4026]

10 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Okay, this "theme" has me stumped. On Tuesday night, TCM will be kicking off the evening with The Three Faces of Eve, in which Joanne Woodward plays a woman with multiple personality disorder. It ends the evening with Lizzie, in which Eleanor Parker plays a woman with three personalities. Pretty obvious thematic connection, wouldn't you say? But in between those two movies, it's showing Wilson, with Alexander Knox. Did our 28th president have multiple personality disorder too?

Maybe if another Lord of the Rings movie was thrown in there (The Two Towers, perhaps), the theme would become clearer.

[bmoore4026]

Tonight, The Haunting is on.  And then, after that, the Japanese movie House is on!   Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  So pumped!

[ratgirlagogo]

2 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

 

Tonight, The Haunting is on.  And then, after that, the Japanese movie House is on!   Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  So pumped!

 

Echo the yay! It's not just that they're both great, it's that they dovetail together so well as haunted house films of very different kinds.  Love.

[AuntiePam]

Of Human Hearts on TCM this weekend.  1938, Walter Huston, Beulah Bondi, Charles Coburn, Jimmy Stewart.  Set in the 1840's, it's about a minister who moves his family (wife and son) from 'civilization' (Baltimore, I think) to a small town on the Ohio River.   Son rebels against the family's poverty and the father's control, mother is long-suffering but not a martyr.   Nobody is a cliche -- okay, maybe they're cliche, but they're not overdone.

Remarkable story, with a familiar moral -- honor thy father and mother -- but told with humor and wit.  The movie felt like something lived rather than written.  Natural dialogue, and a horse that steals the show.  Five stars.

[voiceover]

Ahhhhh...Kiss Me, Kate!  Next to Cabaret, my favorite musical (how's that for a double-bill: my "Bob Fosse" collection).  Genuinely funny, and the double sl of "Taming of the Shrew" with the battling divorced co-stars is a clever, realistic juxtaposition.  Ego gets in the way of Fred & Lili, much like it does for Petruchio & Kate.

And what perfect casting!!  Howard Keel is such a man's man, and then that singing voice comes out of him...*melts*.   I know Kathryn Grayson is not a favorite around here, but IMO, the two of them were always exactly right together.

Ann Miller usually makes me wince, but I like her here (though if I'd been Grayson, I'd've said, "She has how many numbers?").  

And I love *every* song.  I mean: Cole. Porter!  I do have to --reluctantly -- give "Wunderbar" the nod for #1.  Not only is this my (co-)favorite musical, but that duet is my favorite musical number.  

Edited March 28, 2017 by voiceover
Because of course: Fosse directs one, and dances in another; how'd I forget that

[Jordan Baker]

19 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Ahhhhh...Kiss Me, Kate!  Next to Cabaret, my favorite musical (how's that for a double-bill: my "Bob Fosse" collection).  Genuinely funny, and the double sl of "Taming of the Shrew" with the battling divorced co-stars is a clever, realistic juxtaposition.  Ego gets in the way of Fred & Lili, much like it does for Petruchio & Kate.

And what perfect casting!!  Howard Keel is such a man's man, and then that singing voice comes out of him...*melts*.   I know Kathryn Grayson is not a favorite around here, but IMO, the two of them were always exactly right together.

Ann Miller usually makes me wince, but I like her here (though if I'd been Grayson, I'd've said, "She has how many numbers?").  

And I love *every* song.  I mean: Cole. Porter!  I do have to --reluctantly -- give "Wunderbar" the nod for #1.  Not only is this my (co-)favorite musical, but that duet is my favorite musical number.  

I haven't been here in a while, but I had to weigh in on KMK. I'd say that it's my favorite movie musical.

My favorite number in the show, without question, is "From This Moment On." (The runner-up might be "Brush Up Your Shakespeare". Who'd have thought James Whitmore and Kennan Wynn could do the old song and dance?)

As for favorite song? That's a tough one. I too love "Wunderbar," but I think "So in Love" nudges it out. But they're all great. Howard Keel was born to play Fred/Petruchio. (The less said about Kathryn Grayson, the better. A friend once told me that if you closed your eyes, you'd be certain that one of the Munchkins had wandered in from the set of The Wizard of Oz to take the role of Kate.) And Bob Fosse. What a stroke of genius to add "From This Moment On" back in the movie version.

I gush about this musical to the point of annoying people. I can't help it. I just love it. 

[Silver Raven]

My favorite number is "Too Darn Hot".

[MissT]

Maybe I missed something, but why don't you or previous posters care for Kathryn Grayson.   I'm not judging anyone for their opinion - I'm not too familiar with her.   Just curious.  

[bmoore4026]

Anchors Aweigh is on right now.  All I can think off now when I see it is that scene with Channing Tatum and all those sailor dancers in Hail Caesar.

Speaking of Caesar, Tuesday's movie theme is RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRome.

Edited March 28, 2017 by bmoore4026
Things and stuff

[Rinaldo]

I've said my piece on K*thr*n Gr**s*n in this topic before -- probably more than once -- so I don't want to be tiresome and repeat myself. I'll just say that Kiss Me, Kate is a favorite stage musical of mine, and the film gives a hint of its quality by letting us hear some of its songs, and letting us see a terrific performance by Howard Keel. Plus, of course, those 6 fabulous juveniles.

53 minutes ago, Jordan Baker said:

What a stroke of genius to add "From This Moment On" back in the movie version.

One correction: there is no "back" with this song; it had never been part of Kiss Me, Kate at any point. It was part of the score of Porter's next musical, Out of This World, cut when its assigned actor couldn't sing it (I know, that seems ridiculous now as it was the best song in the show; at least the newer cast recording restores it). It does indeed make a most welcome addition to the filmed Kate -- the best thing in the movie in fact, what with the three pairings Tommy Rall / Ann Miller, Bobby Van / Jeanne Coyne, and Bob Fosse / Carol Haney. That's like a summit meeting of the three supreme boy dancers in movies at the time, each wonderful in his own style (and Fosse was allowed to choreograph his own segment, demonstrating that he already knew what "his style" was). Just pure bliss.

[voiceover]

3 hours ago, Jordan Baker said:

 (The less said about Kathryn Grayson, the better. A friend once told me that if you closed your eyes, you'd be certain that one of the Munchkins had wandered in from the set of The Wizard of Oz to take the role of Kate.) 

Wow.  Everyone's entitled to their opinion, of course, but that's just...mean.  She's no Judy Garland, but she didn't sound anything like that hopped-up RPM sound they mixed for the munchkins.

And while I like the song itself, the whole From This Moment On sequence feels dropped-in and a bit jarring -- like the production people said, "Hey we need some cover for the noise we're making while we put the finale set up."

(Everybody: drop your pearls.  It's a great sequence.  I just don't think it belongs in this movie.)

[Rinaldo]

I'll drop the rest of the movie and keep that sequence, then. It's the only thing I watch the movie for.

And I intend to be mean to Ms. Gruesome at every opportunity. She earned it, after the way she reduced Lilli and Magnolia to vapid vocalizing sessions (no acting required), and the way she trashed Guenevere and the rest of Camelot onstage.

[voiceover]

Like I said.  Drop your pearls.

[Milburn Stone]

5 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

And I intend to be mean to Ms. Gruesome at every opportunity. She earned it, after the way she reduced Lilli and Magnolia to vapid vocalizing sessions (no acting required), and the way she trashed Guenevere and the rest of Camelot onstage.

I'd be interested to learn more about her trashing of Camelot. Please share! As for Kate, I've always found her singing-acting (not just her singing) more than satisfactory, based primarily on her handling of "I Hate Men." The way her Lilli delivers that song, I fully buy that she hates men! (At least in that moment.) And since from all accounts Kathryn Grayson didn't hate men, I have to credit her as an actress.

[Rinaldo]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I'd be interested to learn more about her trashing of Camelot. Please share! 

All right. I thought I'd said it all in this topic before and was going to link to that comment, but my searches haven't located more than a one-sentence mention, so here goes.

This was the first national company of Camelot, a musical I'd loved since it was new (on the basis of hearing the recording, seeing the bits performed on TV, reading the published play, and buying the published piano-vocal score). It finally arrived in Chicago when I was in high school, and I blew my savings on a really good ticket. The only name I knew in the cast (old movies weren't as available then) was Arthur Treacher, who was playing King Pellinore. Everything -- sets, costumes, orchestra, voices, all the other actors -- was as I'd hoped except for the Guenevere.

She made no attempt to address any of the others onstage, dissociating herself from whatever was happening onstage. She added (yes, more precisely, others added at her insistence) a descant plus cadenza with flute obbligato to "The Simple Joys of Maidenhood." She had the dance deleted from "The Lusty Month of May," and re-routined the rest of the number so that she was featured at all moments, again including a pseudo-operatic conclusion. She omitted the "they dance" portion of "What Do the Simple Folk Do?" to spare herself any effort. Throughout her songs she waved an arm to take over from the conductor. That was my introduction to Kathryn Grayson, and to the reality that professional production was no guarantee of high standards, and that some big-name actors cared more about their own image (as they imagined it) than about serving the piece in which they appeared. I suppose it was a good lesson to learn, but it came at the expense of an experience I'd been looking forward to greatly.

[Jordan Baker]

21 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

One correction: there is no "back" with this song; it had never been part of Kiss Me, Kate at any point. It was part of the score of Porter's next musical, Out of This World, cut when its assigned actor couldn't sing it (I know, that seems ridiculous now as it was the best song in the show; at least the newer cast recording restores it). It does indeed make a most welcome addition to the filmed Kate -- the best thing in the movie in fact, what with the three pairings Tommy Rall / Ann Miller, Bobby Van / Jeanne Coyne, and Bob Fosse / Carol Haney. That's like a summit meeting of the three supreme boy dancers in movies at the time, each wonderful in his own style (and Fosse was allowed to choreograph his own segment, demonstrating that he already knew what "his style" was). Just pure bliss.

ACK! Thanks for the correction. I did know it came from a later show, and so I have no idea why I wrote "back."

Maybe I'm confusing it with my favorite musical, Company. I *think* "Marry Me a Little" was cut from the original and then restored in later years. Or perhaps it's from one of Sondheim's other shows?

My own dislike of KG in this particular role (to answer two other posts) has to do with her singing. I claim absolutely no knowledge of singing technique; I just feel as though her particular style is wrong for the part. It seems shrill to me and it takes me out of the movie (and soundtrack), as, apparently, it did for my friend who made the Munchkin comparison. I saw Marrin Mazzie in the role on Broadway, and I found her voice and performance better suited to Kate.

[Rinaldo]

29 minutes ago, Jordan Baker said:

I did know it came from a later show, and so I have no idea why I wrote "back."

Maybe because the last Broadway revival (the one with Marin Mazzie, whom you mention) did add it into the show, as a duet between Lilli and her pompous fiancé (oddly, it was excluded from that cast album, but it's on the DVD of this production from its London run). It's easy to get confused about it.

32 minutes ago, Jordan Baker said:

Company. I *think* "Marry Me a Little" was cut from the original and then restored in later years.

Quite correct. It started getting restored around the time of the Roundabout revival and the concurrent London (Donmar Warehouse) revival. Since then, most productions include it, though it wasn't in the Sondheim Celebration production (with John Barrowman) at the Kennedy Center.

35 minutes ago, Jordan Baker said:

I just feel as though her particular style is wrong for the part. It seems shrill to me ... I saw Marrin Mazzie in the role on Broadway, and I found her voice and performance better suited to Kate.

It's true that the role has generally been cast with a deeper, richer soprano in stage productions, as opposed to a high coloratura type like KG. The original, Patricia Morison, had that sort of voice, as did her successor, Anne Jeffreys, and Ms. Mazzie. The two note-complete recordings, on EMI and JAY, cast the role with a dramatic soprano (Josephine Barstow) and a mezzo-soprano (Diana Montague).

[Padma]

I caught "Deception" on TCM today.  A remake of 1929 "Jealousy" it wasn't a great film or script, but perfectly watchable--about a pianist (Bette Davis) her jealous cellist-fiancé (Paul Henreid) and her jealous mentor/sugar daddy (Claude Rains). 

The thing that surprised me about the film was how much I didn't like Bette Davis' performance when I'm usually such a fan. I was really surprised how "bad" she was (in my eyes anyway). She was doing her lines with that clipped, cold, strong delivery which worked fine when you were supposed to think she was kind of devious and scheming. But she also was supposed to seem warm and loving and those scenes were completely unconvincing (not because she was supposed to keep you guessing--you were supposed to believe her.)

A couple of years after "Now, Voyager" and "Mr. Skeffington" and a couple of years before "All About Eve". Even Margo Channing had more warmth. It was very disappointing because her overly mannered acting kept pulling me out of the movie--very unusual.

[Milburn Stone]

Well, it's not that great a movie, IIRC; but with a great Korngold score.

I guess my point is, it's always hard to know the reasons one isn't "buying" a performance. It could be a bad performance. But it could be that the writing isn't there. It's been so long since I've seen it that I can't remember her performance, but I do remember that I didn't blame the movie on her.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[ratgirlagogo]

22 hours ago, Padma said:

 

I caught "Deception" on TCM today.  A remake of 1929 "Jealousy" it wasn't a great film or script, but perfectly watchable--about a pianist (Bette Davis) her jealous cellist-fiancé (Paul Henreid) and her jealous mentor/sugar daddy (Claude Rains). 

 

Oh my god I fucking LOVE this film.  That whole scene where, faced with explaining her high-priced apartment and the expensive clothes and furs in the closet -  she admits to to Paul Henreid that, despite all the promises they had made to each other - she TOOK STUDENTS????!!!#$%^?    As the French say a cat would laugh.   To me it is like one of those incredibly over the top overheated Douglas Sirk melodramas - and as such it is unsurpassed.  I much prefer it to Mr Skeffington with which it used to double bill at Theatre 80 in NYC back in the day.  I think both Claude and Bette are incredibly sexy in this film and part of the comedy is the admirable dullness of Paul Henreid - very characteristic of a John Collier script, which this was.

Edited March 31, 2017 by ratgirlagogo

[Padma]

9 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Well, it's not that great a movie, IIRC; but with a great Korngold score.

I guess my point is, it's always hard to know the reasons one isn't "buying" a performance. It could be a bad performance. But it could be that the writing isn't there. It's been so long since I've seen it that I can't remember her performance, but I do remember that didn't blame the movie on her.

I liked his score, too, and especially liked the cello concerto that much of the plot revolved around. (per wiki, Korngold liked it so much himself that he expanded and published it.)  In terms of the music-meets-writing aspect, I enjoyed the moment when Bette was sitting down to perform at the piano and Rains said sarcastically, "I suppose you're playing Chopin" (I'd been asking myself, "What Chopin will she play?") She replied disdainfully, "I'm playing The Appassionata", which gave me a smile since I'd underestimated her too.

Looking at her filmography, and seeing Dead Ringer where, nearly 20 years later she was still doing the same "Bette Davis thing", I think I'm not the Davis fan I thought I was. She wasn't like that--so predictably mannered--in her early years, but then she got her "schtick" and it only works for me when character and actor meet (as with "Eve") or as a character role where...character and actor meet, as in Death on Nile. But I think it was more "playing Bette Davis the character" in most of those films of the late 40s on.

"Deception" was purchased for Henreid and Barbara STanwyck. I think I would have liked that version better, although, as one critic wrote, "no one is likeable" and that might have also been part of the problem. (I still think Bette, despite lying often, was supposed to be the likeable one, but couldn't pull it off.)

[Padma]

12 minutes ago, ratgirlagogo said:

Oh my god I fucking LOVE this film.  That whole scene where, faced with explaining her high-priced apartment and the expensive clothes and furs in the closet -  she admits to to Paul Henreid that, despite all the promises they had made to each other - she TOOK STUDENTS????!!!#$%^?    As the French say a cat would laugh.   To me it is like one of those incredibly over the top overheated Douglas Sirk melodramas - and as such it is unsurpassed.  I much prefer it to Mr Skeffington with which it used to double bill at Theatre 80 in NYC back in the day.  I think both Claude and Bette are incredibly sexy in this film and part of the comedy is the admirable dullness of Paul Henreid - very characteristic of a John Collier script, which this was.

Sorry to be so long-winded and then see this and post again but... got to agree with you about Rains sexy and his acting is great throughout. Henreid is dull. Bette's a bitch, and Claude is the bad guy but so suave and smart and charming.  And that "student" line -was- pretty funny, though unintentionally so. It was pretty over the top and campy.  I guess I was just surprised to realize I don't really like "The Bette Davis Character"! Despite her being in a couple of my favorite movies.  I'd love to have seen Stanwyck in it. For me, she would have brought the warmth and chemistry that was missing  with BD.