Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[oliverwendell]

 

I expected it from the rest, but the lack of faith Emma is showing in Hook is astonishing.

 

In her defense, the promo showed one scene in which he told her he was going to destroy everyone she loved, and she told him she would protect her family even if it meant killing him. There may be other scenes like that which lead Emma to reasonably conclude that Killian Jones has left the building.

 

 

Jim BTW watched the winter finale and he said it's very good and he's a CS fan.

 

Who is Jim?

[HoodlumSheep]

Do I dare hope that Snow is ever so slowly gaining some of her sense back? This is the second episode where she's defended Hook somewhat. Hook tends to parallel with Snow and he and she were kind of on the same page way back in 5x01.

Anyways, sad to see Emma seemingly lose hope in Darth Killian.

Edited December 4, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[regularlyleaded]

*LOL* I'm amused at how blasé murder has become in relation to this show. "Pffft, Hook's not a bad guy. He's only murdered one person in cold blood in 24 hours. Why doesn't Emma have more faith in him?"
 
Cheers, writers, for getting the viewership to see one murder as not a big deal. *Golf clap*
 
Emma had faith in Hook and that's why she gave him Excalibur post-darkening. And Hook returned that faith by murdering Merlin and casting the dark curse so he could get his revenge. He's now promising Emma pain and to hurt everyone she loves and has released a gaggle of Dark Ones on the population. What exactly about any of that says anyone should think Hook isn't 100% full on evil and needs to be stop no matter what? He's got one murder under his belt, does he need five, ten, twenty? If one murder isn't enough, what number is?
 

In her defense, the promo showed one scene in which he told her he was going to destroy everyone she loved, and she told him she would protect her family even if it meant killing him. There may be other scenes like that which lead Emma to reasonably conclude that Killian Jones has left the building.

IA.

[YaddaYadda]

In her defense, the promo showed one scene in which he told her he was going to destroy everyone she loved, and she told him she would protect her family even if it meant killing him. There may be other scenes like that which lead Emma to reasonably conclude that Killian Jones has left the building.

I think the fact that he's threatening that she will watch her family die should be enough to convince her that Hook has indeed left the building.

 

I kind of wonder if Regina isn't playing both sides right now to make good on her promise to save Emma. She's sort of the glue that's supposed to hold the flashback, and the present day together. 

 

one thing I'm sort of getting from this is that Hook as a Dark One knows what previous Dark Ones are thinking, but his thoughts are his own. Emma was able to hide her whole agenda from the everyone. They even thought she was going to snuff out the light, when she was really wanting to do the opposite.

 

What if goes to Regina with his own moment of, if Emma can't do what needs to be done, then it falls to you? 

[mjgchick]

That must be after that scene in the promo where Emma takes the sword and almost stabs him. She seems ready to take him out in the promo.

[Curio]

Cheers, writers, for getting the viewership to see one murder as not a big deal. *Golf clap*

 

Well, considering we've already gotten one scene this season where we were supposed to completely ignore the description of a village being burned down where multiple people were killed and root for the person who did it, one murder in comparison to that actually does seem blasé at this point.

 

But, yes. Point taken.

[InsertWordHere]

Hook himself told her Killian Jones died the moment she turned him into a Dark One. She is repeating what he told her (probably because making Emma accept that he needs to die is all part of his plan but maybe not).

 

I think the scene from the promo where Emma is trying to stab Hook is after the sneak peek. This very much seems to me like Emma has just remembered what Hook is up to with the Dark Ones and they are rushing to try to stop him. Emma still thinks he's attempting to do this, she doesn't know he's already done it. Plus, Rumple still has the sword towards the beginning of the episode. I don't think Emma gets it until later. 

[HoodlumSheep]

Someone should make a gifset comparing Emma saying Regina's right to how she's actually ended up wrong for most of the instances.

I'll guess that Emma trying to stab Hook comes before this sneak peek.

Edited December 4, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Curio]

There's been a whole lot of back and forth the past few episodes.

 

"That you isn't here!" "I know you're still in there, Emma." "I loved you." "I love you, Emma Swan, no matter what you've done." "How could you do this to me?" "I'll never stop fighting for us. All you have to do is trust me." "So much for our future, Swan." "I do trust you to control your own fate!" "That man died back in Camelot. Now all there is is the Dark One."

 

All I'm saying is that this ending better be freaking worth the neck straining I've gotten from all the whiplash.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Curio

[Dianthus]

We don't really know that Hook killed Merlin, though. Yes, we saw what we saw, but it's Merlin. Plus, DS poofed away his body. EK has also hinted that we'll see Merlin again in the finale. We just don't know what state he'll be in.

 

ETA: It kills me that Emma seems to have given up on Hook, but it's not entirely surprising. Every good thing in her life has turned to crap on her at some point or another.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Dianthus

[Serena]

 

Who is Jim?

Jim Haltermann is a journalist who's currently on set. He did those set interviews during S3B. He's a huge Hook/CS fan. I think he writes for tvfanatic?

[Rumsy4]

I was thinking about Sneak Peak 2 (the one with Rumple and Hook).

It could be part of a long con. Now perhaps I'm wearing fan goggles, but its almost like they are having two different conversations. Hook is gloating but Rumple isn't entirely sure why since he won the battle and has excalibur. Hook goes on about the same old Rumple and his thirst for power. Pair that with Colin saying that Hook left Excalibur on purpose (and it wasn't just a filming oversight).

What if in that scene, Hook is trying to give Rumple a message? Hook may not be able to say something straight up because the other Dark Ones will know. But, if he says someting obliquely, giving clues that only Rumple can figure out then maybe he is running a long con. Rumple should know what the overall Dark One plan is since he was one (Emma knows it, so why shouldn't he?). He and Hook share a common history even before either was a Dark One, so he can hint at things that Dark Ones may not know about or consider important. Gift wrap it in an argument about how Rumple is going to pay and the other Dark One's will think it's just Hook on a bender.

I love your theory, kili! Gold is the brainiest of the lot (except for S4, where everyone became idiots). So, he could potentially figure out Hook's hidden messages. I like this even better than the theory that Hook is merely goading Gold to kill him. Dark Hook wants Gold to pick up on his plan. This would parallel Emma recruiting Regina to "destroy" her, and explain why Gold accompanies everyone in the "Save Hook" mission.

[mjgchick]

We don't really know that Hook killed Merlin, though. Yes, we saw what we saw, but it's Merlin. Plus, DS poofed away his body. EK has also hinted that we'll see Merlin again in the finale. We just don't know what state he'll be in.

ETA: It kills me that Emma seems to have given up on Hook, but it's not entirely surprising. Every good thing in her life has turned to crap on her at some point or another.

She doesn't really have anyone to give her hope (well maybe Snow. She's defended Hook twice which still shocks me.) because said person is currently the villain whose threatening her family.

I wonder if Hooks trying to get Rumple to kill him because he doesn't want Emma to do it because it's probably the hardest thing she'll ever do and he doesn't want that for her.

[YaddaYadda]

I wonder if Hooks trying to get Rumple to kill him because he doesn't want Emma to do it because it's probably the hardest thing she'll ever do and he doesn't want that for her.

 

A week ago, before seeing the promo, I would've thought it would be really hard for her to do it, but after seeing the promo of her taking a swing at him, I think she's detached herself. The person standing there in front of her is not the man she loves. 

 

That him isn't here anymore. This is the same reason Hook was able to detach himself from her after that "date" on the JR. The person in front of him was playing games, lying to him. If he didn't think real Emma had left the building before she ever did anything insane, I don't think why she would think Hook hasn't been overtaken by the Dark One completely.

 

If this is a long con, then her finding out about it, and what Hook has been doing will make it hard for her to take any sort of actions against him. I think she'd rather just stay the Dark One than harm him. If she doesn't know anything, then it ups the ante.

Edited December 4, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Sarcastica]

I feel like Sunday's episode needs to be 2 hrs long for Papa Killian, wee Killian, Drunk with Darkness Hook, Nimue & friends running around...and so on.

I'm going to shake my fist again at The Bear King episode. 

[mjgchick]

The other scary thought I have is that Hooks purposely trying to get himself killed because he knows that's the way to hurt Emma without really hurting her family...my mind goes to dark places because of this show.

[InsertWordHere]

I think this is a retread of the end of Season 2, like some of us feared, but Hook is not pulling a Season 2 Regina, he's pulling a Season 2... Hook. Emma is the Regina in this situation. The Dark Ones are Greg and Tamara (yeah they really did suck). Back then, Greg and Tamara captured Hook and told him their evil plan to use the failsafe and Hook initially didn't care because it meant Rumple would die and he also didn't have much of a choice because they had him tied up and not in the good way. Kind of sounds like his situation with Nimue right now. So he helped them get the failsafe by tricking Regina (who was also trying to doublecross him which Dark Hook would feel like Emma is doing now) and they end up cuffing her. Regina, who had been on the outs with the Charmings, is saved by them and then is willing to sacrifice herself by deactivating the failsafe. Emma and Regina work together to stop the failsafe, and this is like whatever promise Regina is supposed to keep in 5.11 (probably that she should kill Emma to stop the DOs). Lots of plotty things happen, Hook takes the bean, all hope if lost blah blah blah and then Hook returns at the last minute, too late to save the town (himself in 5.11) but not too late for the others (including Rumple) to open a portal to rush after Henry (also Hook in 5.11?). They've just cut out the middle part where Hook briefly works with the Charmings and steals the bean.  

 

I would be pretty okay with this.

[Curio]

Except instead of everyone being like, "Okay, now I know it's the crazy thing to do, but we all need to rally together and save Regina because she's family! Heroes take the hard path!", they're like, "Okay, I guess we should probably kill Hook."

Edited December 4, 2015 by Curio

[Souris]

A week ago, before seeing the promo, I would've thought it would be really hard for her to do it, but after seeing the promo of her taking a swing at him, I think she's detached herself. The person standing there in front of her is not the man she loves.

 

And Emma still is a Dark One herself, so her reactions are going to be somewhat skewed by that, as well.

[Rumsy4]

^ They were also quick to give up on Anna in S4A because they needed to make hard decisions as 'leaders', not heroes.

regularlyleaded: I think Dark Hook can be given a pass for one murder. jk ;-)

[regularlyleaded]

Dark Hook has been written as so off the reservation (in my estimate) and there's been almost no time between him going all evil -- killing Merlin and enacting the curse, and bringing all the Dark Ones back -- that I don't buy a long con (I don't entirely discount the possibility....but as it stands right now, I don't buy it and Colin's interviews (IMO) indicate nothing about a long con). IMO, if Hook ends up sacrificing himself it's either because he's had a last second lapse back into sanity because reasons or because he's been undarkened. I can actually see the writers taking Hook further down the evil rabbit hole and have Dark Hook killing Emma here, he is (and the writers are too) that far out of his mind (and the more twisted something is the greater the likelihood that it's what the writers will do).

 

Since it's TS;TW;Calvinball, here's my crazy pants speculation:

 

It's possible Emma manages to stuff all the darkness into herself, gets killed (taking the darkness with her) and sent to the Underworld (maybe Hook inflicts a mortal wound on her before the darkness is completely sucked out of him? (It is TS;TW, afterall) Or Regina kills her or Emma suicides, take your pick). Then an undarkened Hook has an "Oh, shit" moment and makes a deal with Hades that if he becomes Hades' minion Emma gets brought back. Or maybe if Emma dies a Dark One she can be brought back like Rumpel was, so Hook makes a deal with Hades? Or maybe that ring Hook gave Emma before he got darkened is a get out of the Underworld free pass? (I think those are possible explanations for that behind the scenes picture Jen tweeted of herself, in regular Emma attire, laying in a boat, which I'm assuming is Charon's boat -- Emma's coming back from the Underworld, not headed towards it.) Either way, Emma's back, alive, and she and Hook meet one last time for a tearful goodbye before he leaves for his new job as Hades' minion.

I know everyone is assuming that Emma and Co. go to the Underworld (partly because of an unverified set stalker tweet), but I think it's possible that opening the Hellmouth somehow caused parts of the Underworld to merge into Storybrooke, and thus, we have Underbrooke. Maybe they opened the Hellmouth and aren't able to shut it. In that case, it's possible Emma and Co. never left Storybrooke and are actually trying to find a way to demerge the Underworld and Storybrooke, and shut the Hellmouth. Meanwhile, Hook's not dead, but a contracted Hades minion and Emma and Co. are also trying to figure out a way to get Hook out of that deal.

 

(Or perhaps if Hook dies as a Dark One that's how they get around the "you can't bring back the dead" clause? They can bring Hook back because he died a Dark One (like Rumpel did) so there's a way to get him back, but they're trying to figure a way around the "a life for a life" clause and a way to bring him back undarkened?)

Edited December 4, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[YaddaYadda]

I know everyone is assuming that Emma and Co. go to the Underworld (because of an unverified set stalker tweet), but I think it's possible that opening the Hellmouth somehow caused parts of the underworld to merge into Storybrooke, and thus we have Underbrooke. Maybe they opened the Hellmouth and aren't able to shut it. In that case, it's possible Emma and Co. never left Storybrooke and are actually trying to find a way to send the Underworld people back to where they should be and shut the Hellmouth. Meanwhile, Hook's not dead but a contracted Hades minion and Emma and Co. are also trying to figure a way out to get Hook out of that deal.

 

I could see this happening.

 

At the same time, I've been wondering about the clock, and how time seems to have moved only 5 minutes between 5x12 and 5x14, although they've had night shoots.

 

I'm Jon Snow, I know nothing.

[regularlyleaded]

I'm Jon Snow, I know nothing.

Hehe, same. At this point I'm just entertaining myself by spinning insane and twisted theories because I don't think what we'll actually be getting will make any better sense. This show is plot spaghetti thrown against a wall by a blindfolded, demented, drunk leprechaun.

[legaleagle53]

So nobody has yet mentioned that we're going to see young Prince Henry again as well?  I wonder how they're going to do that without showing young Cora.

[scenicbyway]

Thinking about those who are marked for the Underworld...we know from photos that Snow,Charming and Henry are marked. Perhaps Regina, Robin and Rumple agree to go to rescue them with the added bonus of picking up Hook. I just think there has to be more to it than "Save Hook."

[YaddaYadda]

I realize that absolutely nothing has played out the way the writers "spoiled" it this half season. That includes everything they've said about Regina in regards to Emma. I thought Regina would be deeply entranched in this because of the way they made it sound at the start of the season, but that really hasn't happened. If anything, it showed that Regina was projecting her personal feelings onto Emma a lot.

 

Then going through the spoilers only thread, there was this little gem from late October.

 

 

 

Did Emma have to crush a heart to cast this new curse on Once Upon a Time? — Kat

“Yes,” EP Edward Kitsis says. “Can’t make a dark curse without crushing the heart of the thing you love most.” Which begs the question whether someone in Storybrooke pulled a Snowing and split their heart. “There’s other stuff going on than what appears on the surface right now,” EP Adam Horowitz says. Adds Kitsis: “The question you’re asking is whose heart is it and is someone going to die? We’re not going to answer that, but we will say the information you need to guess has not appeared yet … or has it.”

 

Well I don't know, Eddie. Experience with this show says that when someone's heart gets crushed, they die. So are they implying that because this is Merlin that the rules don't apply to him?

 

They'd already finished filming 5x11 when this quote was published, btw, so they already knew whose heart was getting crushed.

Edited December 4, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[PixiePaws1]

The last time a group of 'heroes' marched down main street and determined to take out the bad guy/girl who was wielding a DO, the only one capable of doing anything was Regina who pulled white magic out of her arse......and then I threw up at the hideously undeserved sanctification of the unrepentant mass murderer being hailed a hero while 'replacing' Emma as the white magic wielder...

I guess the meeting we saw in the 1st sneak peek takes place as Rumple is walking back from the well and Hook is lurking about waiting for him and this is the reason that Rumple is not with the main group. They shouldn't be going to confront Hook until they have the sword....question is will Rumple give up the sword willingly or will Emma try to take it..and DO Hook didn't try to take it back in that scene nor look like he any interest in doing so....i think Hook was goading Rumple to try and get the DO power back...but if he was doing it to test him to check if he is now ready to kill Hook with it when he wasn't before or if the Darkness wants Rumple to kill Emma ...no idea..

Edited December 4, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[regularlyleaded]

I could see this happening.

 

At the same time, I've been wondering about the clock, and how time seems to have moved only 5 minutes between 5x12 and 5x14, although they've had night shoots.

Oh, here's a thought: Maybe the clock isn't marking time, but instead it's counting "The Twelve Labours" they have to complete to demerge Storybrooke and the Underworld, shut the Hellmouth, and get Hook back. I'm not entirely up on my Greek mythology, but wasn't there something about the "The Twelve Labours" in Greek myth somewhere? If so, there are 12 hours (or 12 sets of 5 minute marks) on the clock face, so if the clocktower clock has moved forward by five minutes, then Emma and Co. have completed one of the 12 labours. Only 11 more to go, gang! ;)

 

Again, my knowledge of Greek mythology is not great, so the basis of my speculation could be wrong.

Edited December 4, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[YaddaYadda]

I'm not entirely up on my Greek mythology, but wasn't there something about the "The Twelve Labours" in Greek myth somewhere?

 

Hercules.

[KingOfHearts]

Are we assuming that Underbrooke is the Underworld? Could Underbrooke just be a cursed Storybrooke? I just don't get the logic with Underworld looking exactly like Storybrooke with all the modern nuances. (Milah being a crossing guard, Hercules in contemporary clothes, etc.) I thought maybe the UW's appearance was translated to whatever the seer is accustomed to, but I don't think A&E are that clever.

 

With the fallen clock tower and the scorched bug, it's like someone came to Storybrooke and had a terrorizing field day. Somehow I don't think we're getting any answers until the Spring. They might just show them hopping into the portal like 2x22 and end there. I wouldn't hold my breath on any tease.

 

 

Sneak Peek

What a retcon. This has to occur between two scenes in the exact same setting and same clothes. I do love Hook and Regina together though.

Edited December 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Babs Gordon]

Does anyone know if there is a non-Hulu link to the new sneak peek at all? It's times like this that I curse living in Canada...

[PixiePaws1]

on the last promo just after Emma says 'even if I have to kill you to do' and before a shot of a worried looking Gold there is this weird swirling glassy green image that i just can't get to freeze frame...anyone have any clue what it is? i wondered if it was the snow globe..

[Rumsy4]

Sneak Peek

 

I almost threw up. Also, it makes no sense timeline wise. 

[YaddaYadda]

I almost threw up. Also, it makes no sense timeline wise. 

 

I actually enjoyed it. I sort of miss this dynamic, and we haven't seen this version of Hook in a while.  

 

I think even the timeline fits. It's set right after the whole "I want you to kill my mother", and this is Claude the guard you killed, and whatever else. I have to forget that he went to Neverland right after he had his wine, and that he had a change of clothes.

Edited December 4, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[chrisvee]

Well since they still think they have time to stop the plan before the DOs arrive (and they don't because the DOs have arrived) does this scene occur before the marking? So early in the episode.

Also looks like Emma doesn't have the sword so this might be before both the Rumple/Hook scene and Emma/Killian scene.

And since they are splitting up before the force choke scene.

Edited December 4, 2015 by chrisvee

[Mari]

The twelve labors were Heracles' penance for (I believe) killing his wife and children after being driven mad by Hera.  

Edited December 4, 2015 by Mari

[Curio]

Can someone explain-like-I'm-five the timeline between Hook breaking into Belle's cell, Hook meeting up with Regina during the newest sneak peek, and when she sends him into Wonderland with Claude? Or is that the actual order and they just butchered up the wardrobe changes?

[whisper8]

Does anyone know if there is a non-Hulu link to the new sneak peek at all? It's times like this that I curse living in Canada...

 

Link

Edited December 4, 2015 by whisper8

[mjgchick]

That is S2 Hook and Regina to a T. I'm digging it. lol

[YaddaYadda]

Can someone explain-like-I'm-five the timeline between Hook breaking into Belle's cell, Hook meeting up with Regina during the newest sneak peek, and when she sends him into Wonderland with Claude? Or is that the actual order and they just butchered up the wardrobe changes?

 

You basically have to forget that she threw the hat on the ground, and sent Hook to Wonderland right away, and what he was wearing?

 

But this is one of those situations where you absolutely know who they write the show for, and it's not for obsessed people, who knit pick at everything like we (byt that I mean me) do every other minute.

 

Most people don't remember what Hook or Regina were wearing, or who Claude was.

Edited December 4, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[mjgchick]

I still don't get why Regina needed to test Hook when his reputation was him murdering people if they looked at him funny but ok show I'll go along with this.

[RadioGirl27]

I'm the only one who thinks Lana's "acting" is terrible in that sneak peek?

 

I'm not even going to comment the retcon in the timeline, this wouldn't be OUAT with a million retcons per episode.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Can someone explain-like-I'm-five the timeline between Hook breaking into Belle's cell, Hook meeting up with Regina during the newest sneak peek, and when she sends him into Wonderland with Claude? Or is that the actual order and they just butchered up the wardrobe changes?

*deep breath*

 

Hook storms Belle's cell and meets Regina for the first time. They then go to get drinks and Regina tells Hook she wants him to assassinate Cora. She also tells him about the curse and how he'll be able to kill Rumple after it's cast. It's after this that the 5x11 flashbacks happen. Then going back to 2x09, Regina enchants Hook's hook to rip out a heart and tells him how to get to Wonderland. This is when she shows him Claude. It's at the end of this scene that she opens the portal and he goes in.

 

 

Regina is wearing the same blue dress in all 2x09 scenes, before and after the "test" in 5x11. They're also drinking the same drinks...

Edited December 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[HoodlumSheep]

So, Hook and Regina meet. They have drinks. He goes for a walk? (Or whatever) while Regina has her obligatory outfit change. He also felt like changing his outfit, but it took him 3 seconds compared to her hour?half day?/however long. She catches up in the carriage. They go do whatever it is that involves his dad.

They eventually come back and have more drinks. They change back into their drinking outfits ala Downtown Abbey. Then the hat.

Yes. That totally makes sense.

I love how unimpressed he is.

Edited December 4, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Babs Gordon]

Thank you!

 

Yeah the timeline makes zero sense. I wish the writers would try to have things make sense. I know that average viewers won't pick up on it but it's just so sloppy. Go back and watch your old episodes before you tinker with them guys!

 

It was a really fun scene though so that makes me get over it a bit. I loved how Hook tossed the goblet over his shoulder, that made me laugh. And how amused and yet disinterested he seemed when Regina was feeling him up. 

[Curio]

Regina is wearing the same blue dress in all 2x09 scenes, before and after the "test" in 5x11.

 

Why even bother Eduardo with making a new dress, then? Why not just use the same freaking dress, instead of making it canon that she changed outfits just for the hell of it, and then immediately put her back in the outfit she was wearing before? Eduardo spends a lot of time on those outfits, and surely it cost them some good money just to make a new Evil Queen costume, but why go through all that effort when it wasn't even necessary in the first place?

[Sarcastica]

Link

 

I love how when Regina is all touching his arm, Hook is like *YAWN.....really lady? Whatevs...*

[october]

Love that she's sending him on an elaborate side quest when simply warning him that Cora is incredibly wily and probably didn't keep her heart in her chest might have made a world of difference.

 

I think Lana is lovely, but her scenery-chewing has made the EQ about as sexy to me as a slab of drywall.

Edited December 4, 2015 by october

[Curio]

but her scenery-chewing has made the EQ about as sexy to me as a piece of dry wall.

 

Hook shares the same observation, apparently.

[Souris]

I'm the only one who thinks Lana's "acting" is terrible in that sneak peek?

 

You are not. She was trying too hard. Blech.

 

I like the idea of the clock ticking off the 12 Labors!

Edited December 4, 2015 by Souris