Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[Rumsy4]

In the CS movie, a freshly returned from Neverland Hook seemed more interested in having a good old time partying up than in his revenge. What if Regina set up an encounter with Papa Jones and Hook at that time? Finding that the man who abandoned him was not just alive, but an immortal would be enough to piss Hook off and jolt him back into his revenge-quest.

Or the meeting between Papa Jones and his son happens just after Killian lost his brother. Losing Liam inspired Killian's hot-headed decision to become a pirate. Meeting his father would explain what pushed him to become a ruthless pirate. Regina could have found out about it later and called up Papa Jones for the "test".

Edited November 27, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Emma]

Snow is so toxic where Emma is concerned. I want her as far as way as possible.

[KingOfHearts]

 

In the CS movie, a freshly returned from Neverland Hook seemed more interested in having a good old time partying up than in his revenge. What if Regina set up an encounter with Papa Jones and Hook at that time? Finding that the man who abandoned him was not just alive, but an immortal would be enough to piss Hook off and jolt him back into his revenge-quest.

I think you're on to something. Maybe Regina and Hook don't interact at all the in flashbacks. "But how do they share a secret?" They both know about Brennan's circumstances, and he's the link from the characters' pasts to the Underworld. 

 

Or perhaps she set it up to where it looked like Rumple did something to his dad?

Edited November 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

The more that comes out about these next few episodes, the less interested I am. It just seems like they are throwing away character development, relationships and previously developed canon. I hate that it seems to be done in the name of having a big twist. I'm glad that Colin had so much fun with it, but I hate that they can just make Hook go all out evil because of magic. I am still hopeful that Rumpel is going to do something of his own free will that will mitigate this whole idea of the Darkness made me do it that absolves him of his heinous actions in the past.

 

On 5B, I was thinking that no one character besides Hades is going to be the feature of the arc. I think Regina will have her story, Emma/Hook will have theirs, Rumpel will have his and Snowing/Robin/Henry will be around like always. I think the writers made a mistake with Regina in 4B by giving her everything she ever said she wanted. Where can you take that story from there? Which is exactly why Regina hasn't had a clear story arc herself this season. The Zelena stuff could only go so far and it's not particularly popular anyway. The trip to hell gives them an opportunity to explore the Evil Queen without a bunch of silly contrivances that would make Regina's growth irrelevant or undoing it completely. I think we'll end up with a what happens in hell, stays in hell mantra. Depending on whether they get picked up for a sixth season, they could either have the repercussions reverberate into next season or they could wrap it all up in a bow by having everyone face their demons and now they are happy and ready to move on with the rest of their lives. 

Edited November 28, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

I guess I'm not seeing how these new spoilers indicate that Hook's redemption arc is being screwed up now. We already knew that Dark Hook was going on a revenge-bender. I see the climax going two ways (like Merlin, heh). Hook will remain unrepentant until the end and Emma will forced to end his life with Excalibur. If that is the case, she will be partly going to the UW out of guilt for having made Hook Dark, and then killing him. I don't see that happening. I simply cannot imagine Emma coldly putting her Darkness into Hook and then killing him, no matter what. 

 

The Camelot flashback for this episode will most likely end with Hook casting the Dark Curse. So, the present day story might end with Hook coming to his senses. I think Hook will sacrifice himself willingly after he comes down from his hot-headed rage. Hook has gone through too much character development for him to not turn around and realize that he is turning into the thing he hates the most. I know it's TSTW, but I still have hope. ;-) 

 

I don't know if Emma will be the one to end Killian's life herself. If so, I will be pissed at the writers for putting Emma and Hook through such hell, but this is not the first time the writers have pulled this kind of trick. Snow crushed Charming's heart to cast the Dark Curse before she saved him by sharing her heart with him. Better her than Regina, though. Or, Killian will do it himself after he convinces Emma the only way is for him to die and take the Darkness with him. In any case, Emma is not going on the mission to rescue Hook from the UW without his consent this time. 

 

The Regina/Hook connection screams retcon. The writers are not even pretending to maintain continuity at this point. But I am looking forward to seeing Papa Jones and Baby Killian so much that I'm not really worried about what Regina's role is going to be in all this.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Mathius]

Hook will remain unrepentant until the end and Emma will forced to end his life with Excalibur. If that is the case, she will be partly going to the UW out of guilt for having made Hook Dark, and then killing him. I don't see that happening. I simply cannot imagine Emma coldly putting her Darkness into Hook and then killing him, no matter what.

 

Not to mention it makes no sense for Hook to remain unrepentant since his entire motivation as the DO, in both past and present, is confirmed revenge against Rumple, and comments made by Colin and the press release for the coming episode makes it obvious that the Darkness/Nimue is using him for its own end just as he's using it for his (most likely Rumple's blood is the key to unleashing the Dark Ones in physical form).  Hook did NOT want this to happen, and we know he fails in his desired goal of killing Rumple, so it only makes sense that he's going to sacrifice himself to undo the damage he caused, with Emma then going to get him back from the Underworld because the damage he caused is a result of the damage SHE caused and she needs to redeem that.  I am 95% sure this is what's going to happen in the next two episodes.

 

Him sparing Rumple in the end would also make Rumple joining the rescue mention make sense; he's indebted now.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

To add to my earlier post, It would be an incredibly selfish act if Emma executes Hook for going full on DO. If Hook does remain unrepentant (which I don't believe), Emma is the kind of person to take on all the Darkness back into herself and to sacrifice herself once again. 

 

makes it obvious that the Darkness/Nimue is using him for its own end just as he's using it for his (most likely Rumple's blood is the key to unleashing the Dark Ones in physical form).  Hook did NOT want this to happen, and we know he fails in his desired goal of killing Rumple, so it only makes sense that he's going to sacrifice himself to undo the damage he caused...

 

Agree. At first he might intentionally shut his eyes to what agenda the Darkness has (like S2 Hook allying himself with Cora/Regina). But he will turn against the Darkness just like he turned against Regina/Cora when they tried to just use him. For example, any threat of Emma or Henry being in real danger from his actions will more than likely jolt Hook back into his senses. 

Edited November 28, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

Him sparing Rumple in the end would also make Rumple joining the rescue mention make sense; he's indebted now.

 

I thought the second sneak peek laid that out nicely.

 

For the piece of hardware, he'll take the hand.

For Milah, he'll take the heart.

For Emma, he'll take his life. He can live without his heart, he can't live without his head though.

 

Hook pretty much laid the blame of Emma's darkness at Rumple's doorstep. Making abstraction of Emma taking on the darkness to save everyone, when Rumple came back to Storybrooke, it was with the intent of filling Emma's heart with darkness, so that he could have his happy ending. Even if he feels he owes Hook nothing because of their fued, he most certainly owes Emma.

 

I'm pretty sure Emma will not be killing Hook. In fact, I don't think anyone will be killing him, and I'm unsure he even dies. 

[Rumsy4]

In fact, I don't think anyone will be killing him, and I'm unsure he even dies.

 

You may have a point there. This invokes the no body=no death rule. So, there won't be a general cry to bring back everyone else that has died and moved on to the afterlife. 

Edited November 28, 2015 by Rumsy4

[mjgchick]

He'll get sucked/kidnapped into the Underworld. That's why I think Emma goes to find him. If he dies she'd respect his wishes this time and let him go. If she ends up killing him because he didn't want her to take her life I just don't see him wanting to her to revive him a second time so like YaddaYadda, I think Hook gets sucked in or kidnapped or something.

Killian's dad probably owes Hades something and he takes him which is why Emma is carrying his ring maybe as a locator spell?

Edited November 28, 2015 by mjgchick

[KAOS Agent]

Rumpel is the key to this in some way. He's the one who ends up as the Dark One with the dagger at the end. I thought maybe Emma got untethered and Rumpel retethered, but Dark Swan and caneless Rumpel are together when the Dark Ones are running around town, so I'm not sure how that works out. 

 

I still wonder if the events of "The Price" aren't going to tie into this. If Hook is taken as part of the payment not paid, that gives the others a reason to go get him over Hook simply sacrificing himself to fix his own mistakes and everyone being willing to let him go.

Edited November 28, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[YaddaYadda]

I still wonder if the events of "The Price" aren't going to tie into this. If Hook is taken as part of the payment not paid, that gives the others a reason to go get him over Hook simply sacrificing himself to fix his own mistakes and everyone being willing to let him go.

Emma is bringing that up in the sneak peek, she brought it up in 5x08, so there has to be something to it.

Maybe this is some people's wake up call about the sheer hypocrisy of it all when it comes to Emma and what she wants.

No, wait...

[mjgchick]

Rumples heart is mostly white so he could handle the darkness again probably. Maybe this will be where they are redeeming Rumple, Emma and Hook. Maybe even give Regina a better redemption I don't know. I'm out of ideas.

ETA: Anyone thinks them marking Emma's parents is how they get into the Underworld? I still think Henrys just replacing Belle because of Emile's situation.

Edited November 28, 2015 by mjgchick

[PixiePaws1]

ETA: Anyone thinks them marking Emma's parents is how they get into the Underworld? I still think Henrys just replacing Belle because of Emile's situation.

absolutely agree..i think it is like a pass code since they're not dead.

[Souris]

Whatever the secret/adventure between Hook and Regina is, I'm sure it will be annoying, because it involves Regina, and retconny, because it's TSTW.

 

I don't think Rumple becomes the Dark One again. I think the Dark One entity is destroyed for good, and Excalibur & the dagger are split again, and they become just a partial sword and dagger again. Rumple gets the dagger as a memento and Excalibur goes back to Camelot with its citizens. I do wonder if they will address again that they were originally the Holy Grail, which is something that some people would probably want to try to reform at all cost, so maybe the parts should be in different realms.

 

My theory is that the living former Dark Ones -- Rumple and Emma -- get back their own dose of darkness that they did as Dark Ones. So Rumple is no longer white of heart.

 

ETA: Anyone thinks them marking Emma's parents is how they get into the Underworld?

 

Interesting theory! That could work. Emma & Rumple didn't get marked, I don't think, so they'd need another pass code. Perhaps their former Dark One status works for that.

[Hookian]

You may have a point there. This invokes the no body=no death rule. So, there won't be a general cry to bring back everyone else that has died and moved on to the afterlife. 

 

This is what I've been saying. He's gonna be taken into the UW by the spirits and no body will be left behind so it'll basically be a rescue mission to save him. Emma's going to fight for her happy ending this time as will everyone else. After how much of D-bags they've been to Emma this arc they owe her big time and I feel reuniting Emma with Killian her true love is everyone's way to show their appreciation.

[Dianthus]

It seems to me as though Hook won't so much defeat the Darkness, as just take it back to Hell where it belongs.

[PixiePaws1]

I don't think Rumple becomes the Dark One again. I think the Dark One entity is destroyed for good, and Excalibur & the dagger are split again, and they become just a partial sword and dagger again. Rumple gets the dagger as a memento and Excalibur goes back to Camelot

This sounds pretty plausible to me; however i am not certain that the dagger has no power...is it just convenient that Rumple has it with him when he bleeds himself or does it have to be that blade. Merlin said the sword cut mortal ties..maybe the dagger retains that ability even though no longer united with the handle portion.

My theory is that the living former Dark Ones -- Rumple and Emma -- get back their own dose of darkness that they did as Dark Ones. So Rumple is no longer white of heart.

Also an excellent theory and brings things back into balance

Emma & Rumple didn't get marked, I don't think, so they'd need another pass code. Perhaps their former Dark One status works for that.

My theory is that the marking is actually blackmail. I think there might be 5 minutes where they have got rid of the darkness and Killian is back to himself and still alive and they think the worst is over but Hades comes or sends something to pay the price fir Killian still living since he was saved by magic and no-one paid the price for that ('cos Emma and Killian are the only ones who are ever actually expected to pay up!). If he doesn't give himself up then everyone who is marked is getting debt collected.

Other option is Killian wants to hurt Emma and the Darkness tricks him into trying to trade Emma's loved ones (& OQ) for bringing back the previous DOs.

Edited November 28, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[Hookian]

All I can say is they better apologize to Emma when all this is said and done and assure them that they will get Hook back. No more BS doubting her or telling her not to do what she's doing. Just support her as the family they're supposed to be.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Hookian

[PixiePaws1]

All I can say is they better apologize to Emma when all this is said and done and assure them that they will get Hook back. No more BS doubting her or telling her not to do what she's doing. Just support her as the family they're supposed to be.

you can't see me but I am clapping you for this :o)))

[KAOS Agent]

 

No more BS doubting her or telling her not to do what she's doing. Just support her as the family they're supposed to be.

 

Look, they may be excessively hypocritical, but they aren't wrong in telling Emma that she should have let Hook go. I do have serious problems with them completely writing Emma off as gone now, but that's a different story. I think that if Emma has to do the hard thing and let Hook go, they need to sit down and shut up about having Emma fix their problems in the future - even once they do eventually return with Hook. At some point there needs to be a real understanding from Emma's parents of everything she's given up in order to be their Saviour. 

[retrograde]

I'd post this in the unpopular opinions thread if it wasn't a spoiler, but... I really didn't think Regina and Snow's reaction was that bad. Regina acknowledged she understood the decision, even though she doesn't love the outcome. Snow was the one who was judge-y about killing Zelena, and, yknow, Emma was going to kill her in cold blood and she's still trying to minimize that. They mostly seemed annoyed that she'd tried to deal with everything by cutting herself off and keeping everyone in the dark -- which may or may not have been a wise decision depending on what ended up happening in Camelot, but at this point, they don't know what that was yet. And they don't really dwell on things -- they set about formulating a plan to work with Emma (for now, at least) pretty quickly.

[Souris]

Other option is Killian wants to hurt Emma and the Darkness tricks him into trying to trade Emma's loved ones (& OQ) for bringing back the previous DOs.

 

That's exactly where I think it's going: one marked SBer to take the place of each Dark One in the the UW.

[Dianthus]

I just wish JMo had given Emma's 'hope/stupid' line a little more snark. In a way, it really highlights just how freakin' useless Regina and MM have been in terms of getting Emma back to her pre-DS self.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Regina acknowledged she understood the decision, even though she doesn't love the outcome.

My only real issue with Regina in this scene is her tone and attitude. She comes off as callous and impatient. Her anger is understandable (since this comes off the heels of Emma betraying Henry and appearing to be the Big Bad), but this level of condescension is typical of her. That scene with the dagger in 5x08 just makes it worse. For being Emma's friend, she doesn't seem to care much about her feelings.

Edited November 28, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[LizaD]

Yeah that's on Lana. The words aren't exactly harsh but her acting choices to be a full on bitch dripping with condenscension 24/7 grates immensely. That's all fine and good if you're supposed to be a full on unlikeable bitch. But not so much if the narrative says otherwise. Combined with ultimate self-righteous high horse hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness makes for the most annoying creature ever. I mean Mader gets nothing but bitchy lines and Zelena is supposed to be an irredeemable bitch but even she comes across less harsh and judgmental. I honestly feel bad for her when she's in a verbal battle with Woegina. It's just straight up harsh. And how Woegina talks to Zelena is no different than how she talks and treats Emma. I rather be friends with Zelena. Cruella is another one. She's super snarky but her snark comes across with a bit of playfulness and self-mockery.

I can't wait for Cruella to be back for multiple episodes in 5B. I hope her and Hades tear up the Underworld together. And avoid the black hole of Mary Sue suckiness. I also hope this doesn't turn out to be another case of "bring back characters to ruin them" like they did with Cora.

[PixiePaws1]

wild...WILD..spec...

what if Zelena absorbs Killian or his Darkness into the dreamcatchers and threatens to release all the DOs if she doesn't get her baby back and is allowed to leave town?

that's why she took them and put them in the clock tower. .

maybe she is using it like a magical timer

Edited November 28, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[scenicbyway]

So basically Emma's speech in the premiere about how they all let her down and that's why they're cursed back in Storybrooke, was just a way to push them away?  And shockingly it worked.  Snow's reaction in the sneak peek is ridiculous.  It's still hard to tell how much time has passed since they've been back (because, really Hook hasn't noticed he hasn't been sleeping for a week?).  I get that Snow didn't want to "beat" Emma, but her lack of wanting to do anything has been just as bad.  At least Charming showed some frustration about the whole situation.

 

Snow and Regina immediately siding against Emma saving Hook is ridiculous, as both of them have done just as much to save Robin and Charming.  What other choice did Emma have?  No one else had any solutions.  And really, it's like they just expect Emma to be the one to always take one for the team, I'm glad that she finally was proactive about something/someone she wanted.

 

Also,  Colin is awesome as Dark Hook, which I guess is the cartoon version of his "Hook."  I think it's interesting they had him keep his hook when he was remade as the Dark One.  Rumple loses his limp when he's that Dark One, I'm surprised Hook didn't get his evil hand back.

[Shanna Marie]

I think it's interesting they had him keep his hook when he was remade as the Dark One.  Rumple loses his limp when he's that Dark One, I'm surprised Hook didn't get his evil hand back.

At the very least, I find it unlikely that he would be in Gold's shop, talking about getting revenge for the "hardware," right where his hand is in a jar, and he now has the power to put it back and wouldn't care that the hand may or may not be evil, and he would keep the hook and leave the hand there. Basically, it's just for branding now, not because of anything that actually makes sense for the character.

[YaddaYadda]

About Snow asking Emma about the dreamcatchers, giving everyone back their memories so that they can figure out what Hook is up to, Emma has her memories, so technically, she should be able to piece together what Hook is up to, no?

[KingOfHearts]

 

About Snow asking Emma about the dreamcatchers, giving everyone back their memories so that they can figure out what Hook is up to, Emma has her memories, so technically, she should be able to piece together what Hook is up to, no?

Maybe she already knows what he's up to but she's buying time?

[Rumsy4]

Spoiler about CS reuniuon in 5B.

 

Not sure how reliable this is. But apparently Rebecca Mader told this fan that she filmed in studio with both Jen and Colin for 5.13. It's really confusing, considering Zelena was not with the Nevengers in Scarybrooke. Is she "dead" too?? Ugh...

Edited November 29, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Hookian]

Not sure how reliable this is. But apparently Rebecca Mader told this fan that she filmed in studio with both Jen and Colin for 5.13. It's really confusing, considering Zelena was not with the Nevengers in Scarybrooke. Is she "dead" too?? Ugh...

We all know how reliable fan reports can be especially when you can't even find the real page and just take a screenshot.

[KingOfHearts]

Script Tease

 

 

Well that's a very different attitude from what we saw in the sneak peek, now isn't it? Where is this Snow?

Edited November 29, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[InsertWordHere]

Script Tease

What's this? I feel like someone let the real Snow out for a second. Quick, they'd better have Mary Margaret apologize to Regina some more to make up for it. 

[Souris]

How nice to see Snow supporting Emma for a change.

[KAOS Agent]

Someone used the Sands of Avalon on Snow again, didn't they?

[PixiePaws1]

would be nice if she was saying this to DO Killian....and Emma could hear every word...doh...Snow talking to Killian? Should have posted that in the Make a Wish thread! !

[Serena]

Does anyone else think the reason Adam posted that script tease (they're usually way less spoilery, like Belle: I think we should go to the library! or Hook: Swan!) is because he was hit with so many "WTF is that shit?!" type of comments after the sneak peek? It sounds like damage control.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Serena

[RadioGirl27]

Does anyone else think the reason Adam posted that script tease (they're usually way let's spoilery, like Belle: I think we should go to the library! or Hook: Swan!) is because he was hit with so many "WTF is that shit?!" type of comments after the sneak peek? It sounds like damage control.

Oh, yeah. That's the first thing I've thought too.

 

I seriously doubt Snow is talking to Hook. She doesn't talk to him when he is himself, no way she is going to talk to him now that he is the DO.

[OnceUponAJen]

We all know how reliable fan reports can be especially when you can't even find the real page and just take a screenshot.

This is the real page:

https://onceuponafandom.wordpress.com/

[scenicbyway]

We all know how reliable fan reports can be especially when you can't even find the real page and just take a screenshot.

I agree. I don't think any of the actors (other than Bobby) would give away a filming spoiler like a CS reunion. I think it's more likely she was talking about the scene in Emma's house in 5.9 and they were currently filming 5.13.

Oh, yeah. That's the first thing I've thought too.

I seriously doubt Snow is talking to Hook. She doesn't talk to him when he is himself, no way she is going to talk to him now that he is the DO.

She's talking to Charming because they are the ones who share a heart. He must be taking the darkification of his best bro pretty hard?

[Serena]

I've heard about Rebecca saying she filmed with Jen and Colin all over the net. Wasn't it during a panel?

[HoodlumSheep]

Almost keeled over from shock due to that script tease. I didn't see Snow White listed in the guest cast for this episode. Talk about major spoilers.

I wonder how long we're gonna have Snow White back for? One scene? Two?

Still can't stand how she bounces back and forth (due to plot needs). Just last (5x08) episode she made that no-hope/Emma-might-not-be-in-there comment.

[YaddaYadda]

I've heard about Rebecca saying she filmed with Jen and Colin all over the net. Wasn't it during a panel?

Yes, it was during a panel. 

 

I think they've taken everyone with them this time as well. Zelena is probably locked up somewhere she can't do any damage. Though I don't even know why they would take her anywhere with them. Maybe she's trying to turn over a new leaf? Maybe she fights along side them against those Dark Ones.

 

I thought it was sort of interesting that when Hook removed the cuff from her, that she didn't try to kill him even though she basically promised Emma she would. Instead, she released him. I'm guessing this may not be throw away.

 

Also, color me shocked by that script tease. I don't understand Snow at all. If she understands why Emma did what she did, which she should, because she did the same thing, then she should tell her that she gets it, and that she has her support, that they will figure out a way to fix this. Emma is the one who needs support this go round. It's time to return the favor.

[InsertWordHere]

The actress who plays Nurse Ratched is in the cast list for this episode, so chances are Zelena is at least temporarily put away again. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[Hookian]

At this point Snow is so hot and cold it just is exhausting having to keep up with her consistent changes in her personality you would think she was The Dark One.

[Rumsy4]

Almost keeled over from shock due to that script tease. I didn't see Snow White listed in the guest cast for this episode. 

 

LMAO. But not to worry. Our lives are not in danger from shock. This is likely what MM says in Camelot in the immediate aftermath of Emma's actions. The Nevengers are all probably still in the Diner, and haven't seen Leather-clad Emma or Dark Hook yet.

 

I bet Charming's response is. "It's not Emma that I don't have faith in."

Edited November 29, 2015 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

I bet Charming's response is. "It's not Emma that I don't have faith in."

 

Snow and Charming do have a history dealing with exclusive identities. Like the Evil Queen, not Regina, for instance. This time it's the Dark One, not Emma.

[Rumsy4]

Snow and Charming do have a history dealing with exclusive identities. Like the Evil Queen, not Regina, for instance. This time it's the Dark One, not Emma.

 

I was more alluding to Hook being a co-DO. Charming does tend to flip flop about him.