Approach The Bench: Law & Order General Discussion Thread

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Omg Prince of Darkness was so good. So so so good!!!! Freaking awesome!!!

All the twists and turns, the quippy random lawyers and judges. So exciting, so much fun and so sinister.

ETA: Ben Stone is awesome too!!!

Yes he is!! He’s my favorite Executive ADA because of his moral compass and adherence to the law. I love Jack too, but he was and did skate the line and sometimes he just wanted to win.

And now you know why I got so 🤬🤬🤬 how Arrow portrayed the DAs and court. Especially since I think Guggenheim was a writer for this show in the later seasons!😆😆

[Mellowyellow]

I have a mad mad mad crush on Ben Stone!!!

I'd never seen him prior to this reboot. Jack was my introduction to the Mothership and was the face of Law and Order for me.

But Ben is wonderful!!!!! So intent on doing the right thing. I think watching him has made me enjoy the Mothership even more!!!!! They rarely bleat on about the characters but the personalities are so distinct. I love the difference between Ben and Jack.

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

I have a mad mad mad crush on Ben Stone!!!

I'd never seen him prior to this reboot. Jack was my introduction to the Mothership and was the face of Law and Order for me.

But Ben is wonderful!!!!! So intent on doing the right thing. I think watching him has made me enjoy the Mothership even more!!!!! They rarely bleat on about the characters but the personalities are so distinct. I love the difference between Ben and Jack.

I love both Ben and Jack, they are equally great IMO, and I love how they have very different personalities, with Ben being extremely formal, business like, by the book and stoic, while Jack is extremely passionate and more of a maverick type who likes to find new ways to prosecute people and is willing to take more risks. They are both awesome characters, Jack is definitely the face of the franchise and has now become the longest running character, but Ben was great as well and his episodes are just as good as the rest of L&O.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I love both Ben and Jack, they are equally great IMO, and I love how they have very different personalities, with Ben being extremely formal, business like, by the book and stoic,

Yeah, but even Ben got his moment of passionate indignation in "Indifference". I think it was the closest we saw of his emotions coming to the surface. His disgust for the Lowensteins was a sight to behold because, as you said, Ben was usually very buttoned up versus Jack's more passionate nature as a whole.

[Xeliou66]

13 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Yeah, but even Ben got his moment of passionate indignation in "Indifference". I think it was the closest we saw of his emotions coming to the surface. His disgust for the Lowensteins was a sight to behold because, as you said, Ben was usually very buttoned up versus Jack's more passionate nature as a whole.

Yes that was the most visibly angry Ben ever got, he was rightfully appalled by the Lowensteins. Ben had just as much of a passion for justice as Jack IMO, he just went about it in a different way and had a different personality. 

[kb3]

Been trying to watch and like the reboot.  I just cannot with Sam Waterson.  His character is such a rule bound, non-empathetic, self righteous POS.  First I found it hard to like the police, but they started to grow on me with character development.  Didn't take to the DA's office staff.  Still don't. Nolan Price is a $tore knock off of Jack McCoy.  And ADA Maroun just (to the date of the episodes I have been able to watch through) hasn't made much of an impression.  Maybe TPTB thought they were getting star power with bringing McCoy back from whatever dead file closet they had him in but they failed.  Lt. Dixon (Manheim) is who I'm watching for.  With the crossovers to SVU she has proven a rounded character.  McCoy, Maroun and Price are the Flat Stanleys of the L&O franchise

Edited February 28, 2023 by kb3

[balmz]

here's a question based off a reddit thread about stuckey in svu 

 

who were the least interesting  or effective villians, like perps you didn't like not just because of what they did but they were really wrong for the show and felt out of place or something was missing and it just dragged the episode down

[Raja]

39 minutes ago, balmz said:

here's a question based off a reddit thread about stuckey in svu 

 

who were the least interesting  or effective villians, like perps you didn't like not just because of what they did but they were really wrong for the show and felt out of place or something was missing and it just dragged the episode down

Jamie Ross's ex husband defense attorney storyline felt like a different show 

[Xeliou66]

17 hours ago, balmz said:

here's a question based off a reddit thread about stuckey in svu 

 

who were the least interesting  or effective villians, like perps you didn't like not just because of what they did but they were really wrong for the show and felt out of place or something was missing and it just dragged the episode down

I really wish the show had done more with the serial killer from season 4’s Mayhem who wasn’t caught then but the storyline was brought back in season 10’s SVU crossover Entitled - they caught him there only for the story to barely focus on him and focus instead on the cliched Mulroney family. We don’t even know if the serial killer was convicted or what his fate was. Terrible missed opportunity - it was a great idea to bring him back but the resolution was beyond underwhelming, I can’t even remember the killer’s name off the top of my head. I wish the Entitled crossover had been focused on catching the serial killer instead of on the Mulroneys.

[WendyCR72]

I don't know if anyone here has Peacock and watches S13-20 of the Mothership (and/or Criminal Intent) on there, but on the main page for the season listings for S13-20 and for all of CI, it is now saying there are only 9 or 10 days left to watch.

Apparently, Peacock is pulling both. (Except the reboot, from the look of things...and SVU, of course.)

I know they are still all over TV, but this sucks. I thought it would be a nice alternative.

[TakomaSnark]

Oops, just saw that you posted the news here @WendyCR72. Absolutely ridiculous. Thank god for YouTubeTV's unlimited DVR securing me every episode from every season for the foreseeable future (but who knows when that may change).

[Jaded]

Those removals are a perplexing thing to happen to say the least. I wonder what's going on.

[TakomaSnark]

@WendyCR72 Am I hallucinating or is the expiration date no longer on L&O seasons on Peacock?

 

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, TakomaSnark said:

@WendyCR72 Am I hallucinating or is the expiration date no longer on L&O seasons on Peacock?

 

Not hallucinating! Must have been a very recent change since the little clock icon was tagged on some Mothership seasons just yesterday. But gone now!

Gone from Criminal Intent, too. A deal must have been made.

[WendyCR72]

Just a heads up: There is an apparently two-week break until the next episode, then it looks like straight through 'til the end of the season. Enjoy the break!

[wknt3]

On 4/10/2023 at 10:41 PM, TakomaSnark said:

@WendyCR72 Am I hallucinating or is the expiration date no longer on L&O seasons on Peacock?

 

 

On 4/10/2023 at 11:56 PM, WendyCR72 said:

Not hallucinating! Must have been a very recent change since the little clock icon was tagged on some Mothership seasons just yesterday. But gone now!

Gone from Criminal Intent, too. A deal must have been made.

A big @$$ deal. (More like @$$$$$$$$ actually)

With Nine Shows on the Air, Dick Wolf Extends Overall Deal at Universal Television Through 2027

I would speculate that both the Peacock situation and the renewals (or at least the timing of the decision/announcement) were connected to this overall deal renewal. Of course given that it's Peacock it could also be connected to the Adderall shortage and some details getting past the Peacock VP of Streaming and Microwave Programming after they finish pulling a double shift as assistant manager of the 30 Rock snack bar, but the timing seems too coincidental.

[Door County Cherry]

This isn't that unusual.  There have been plenty of shows listed as expiring from Netflix that eventually get reupped.  

[WendyCR72]

So I was watching some Law & Order episodes where Judge Stein, played by Joan Copeland, made an appearance.

I never knew she was the younger sister of Arthur Miller, the playwright! (Thus making her the sister-in-law, however briefly, of Marilyn Monroe! Small world!)

And she lived to almost 100!

[andromeda331]

One thing that's always I've been kind of amazed about is how the defense and prosecuting lawyers will insult and say horrible things about each other in court. Then have drinks together or run into each other at a bar and have drinks together. What an odd job. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by andromeda331

[Palimelon]

So who is your favorite ADA? For me it's probably a tie between Claire and Jaime, followed closely by another tie between Paul and Abbie.

[Xeliou66]

Connie is my favorite second chair ADA, she’s just awesome, she had a great personality and brought a strong spark to the legal side of the show. 
I would say Abbie is my second favorite ADA, she had a strong presence and was a good prosecutor who really clicked well with the others. 
I really like Claire, Paul and Jamie as well - they are great characters.

Serena and Borgia are the two ADAs I’m not a fan of - Serena was all too often soft and whiny and she had some really irritating moments, and Borgia was bland and just kind of there in most episodes and I hated her in the In God We Trust episode. 
I’m also not a big fan of Maroun on the revival, she sometimes reminds me of Serena. 

[buttersister]

Connie. Smart, savvy, assertive. And had Cutter’s number. I thought McCoy liked her more than he did Mike. I know I did.

Then Jamie. Then Claire. 

The rest got on my nerves for various reasons. And I ignore Mauron. She’s overdue for a replacement, but at the risk of overshadowing Nolan (if that’s the character’s name;-)

[Xeliou66]

34 minutes ago, buttersister said:

Connie. Smart, savvy, assertive. And had Cutter’s number. I thought McCoy liked her more than he did Mike. I know I did.

Then Jamie. Then Claire. 

The rest got on my nerves for various reasons. And I ignore Mauron. She’s overdue for a replacement, but at the risk of overshadowing Nolan (if that’s the character’s name;-)

Nice to see someone else who loves Connie - she was awesome. She had a closer relationship with Jack than Cutter did, Connie and Jack had a strong mutual respect. Cutter and Jack respected each other as well but they clashed some and Jack was sometimes annoyed with Cutter’s tricks. I wish Connie had become lead prosecutor when Jack became DA, Cutter really irritated me a lot of the time while Connie was great. 
I loved Claire, Abbie, Jamie and Paul as well. 
Serena is probably my least favorite second chair, she was very whiny and soft and lacked personality. Don’t care for Borgia either. 
As for Maroun, she’s very bland and by far the weakest link of L&O’s revival cast, she hasn’t annoyed me as much as Serena or Borgia but she doesn’t add much. I hope she’s replaced by someone with a more compelling personality soon. I don’t dislike Nolan Price the way some others do, he doesn’t have a lot of personality but he’s not terrible, and frankly I find him more likable than Mike Cutter, Cutter really pisses me off much of the time. No one can be as good as Jack or Ben Stone were in the lead prosecutor role.

[Palimelon]

It would be interesting for them to bring back one of former second chairs back as the EADA. The best choices would be Connie, Paul, or Abbie, since Claire and Borgia are dead, I don't think anyone wants Serena back, and Jaime...well, they did kind of trash her character in her last appearance. Maybe give her a redemption arc of sorts?

But it would be interesting for this show to change the dynamic a bit by having the EADA be a woman and the ADA be a man. I know Trial by Jury had both of the prosecutors be women, but we've never seen that on this show.

[Raja]

2 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

It would be interesting for them to bring back one of former second chairs back as the EADA. The best choices would be Connie, Paul, or Abbie, since Claire and Borgia are dead, I don't think anyone wants Serena back, and Jaime...well, they did kind of trash her character in her last appearance. Maybe give her a redemption arc of sorts?

But it would be interesting for this show to change the dynamic a bit by having the EADA be a woman and the ADA be a man. I know Trial by Jury had both of the prosecutors be women, but we've never seen that on this show.

They gave Mr. Robinette and Ms. Rubirosa such a broad band of experience in the L&O linked universe shows I would expect them to be in the running for the DA's office.

[Palimelon]

Age wise, I can see that for Paul, being the DA. Connie, not quite there yet.

[Raja]

2 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Age wise, I can see that for Paul, being the DA. Connie, not quite there yet.

Connie should be about the age that Vice President Harris was when she was elected DA in San Francisco.  They might have shown a history of New York County voting in older folks but I want this office for her.

[Xeliou66]

As I’ve said before - I wish Connie had become lead prosecutor when Jack became DA. She would’ve been awesome in the role and it would’ve been interesting to see a female lead and a male second chair as the ADAs. That would’ve been great - the last seasons of the original run were strong anyway for the most part but I’m not a Mike Cutter fan.

I highly doubt we’ll ever see any character from the show’s original run on the revival again, and to be honest I’m perfectly fine with that - L&O is about the cases more than the characters, and bringing back a former character would feel almost like a gimmick to try to get viewers. And all too often L&O has just trashed characters when they bring them back, they stupidly crapped on Jamie for no reason when she appeared and they didn’t do a good job with Paul when he returned as a defense lawyer. L&O has had great characters but it’s about the cases first and foremost, so I’m very content with having all new characters now on the revival - I’m really glad Sam/Jack came back for a while to get the revival going but L&O doesn’t need any former characters to return. 

[Palimelon]

I think bringing back one person would be ok, if only to provide some sort of bridge to the original series. I definitely wouldn't mind seeing a few return in a guest capacity at least, as long as they are written well.

Was Paul written that badly? I remember he came back a couple of times and they were all ok episodes...certainly not as bad as Jaime's return.

[Raja]

1 minute ago, Palimelon said:

Was Paul written that badly? I remember he came back a couple of times and they were all ok episodes...certainly not as bad as Jaime's return.

They ripped Johnnie Cochran from the OJ Simpson murder trial headlines and placed Mr. Robinette in that role as faux Cochran.  I think it was on the Tommyverse linked Chicago Justice that Paul came back to his former self when going up against Ben Stone's son  Peter before he transferred to SVU for a season.

Seeing as a Chicago PD detective was loaned to FBI for a while, Connie has a secret soap opera twin in the FBI's New York office.

[Xeliou66]

6 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

I think bringing back one person would be ok, if only to provide some sort of bridge to the original series. I definitely wouldn't mind seeing a few return in a guest capacity at least, as long as they are written well.

Was Paul written that badly? I remember he came back a couple of times and they were all ok episodes...certainly not as bad as Jaime's return.

Paul was all over the map when he returned, and he wasn’t like himself at all - he had become much more radical and in one of his episodes he blatantly accused the NYPD and the DAs office of framing his client because he was Muslim, and in season 6 he took a similar stance when he defended the black mother who had kidnapped her child from his white adoptive parents. But then in season 16 he defended the white nurse who sterilized minority patients without their knowledge, which didn’t seem like something he would do. He just didn’t seem like the same character that was so good as a regular, he never did anything unethical but he wasn’t written very well or consistently.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I’m fine with the show having all new characters and don’t want any of the originals brought back, I’m afraid they would just throw them under the bus for shock value, and even if they didn’t, it would feel gimmicky. Jack provided the bridge between the original series and the revival for a couple of years, and now that the revival has established its characters and is entering its 4th year, a bridge is no longer needed to the first 20 seasons. This show is about the cases, not the characters. The revival doesn’t need to bring on a past character, it needs to have sharper writing for the legal scenes and not make the DAs look inept by losing motions on flimsy grounds or having a mid trial twist that makes them look unprepared. 

[Palimelon]

Quote

I think it was on the Tommyverse linked Chicago Justice

Ah ok, I never watched Chicago Justice.

Quote

Connie has a secret soap opera twin in the FBI's New York office.

She wouldn't be the first person to have a doppleganger in this universe, Van Buren, Skoda, and Lenny also did, among others. As will whoever Maura Tierney plays on the show.

Quote

Paul was all over the map when he returned, and he wasn’t like himself at all - he had become much more radical

I never saw him as all over the map, I saw it as people changing over time. Which was ok given how there was some distance between his return in season 6 and his return in later seasons. But the Chicago Justice return seems a bit much, from what others have said.

I don't mind a familiar face as long as they are written well, which can be an issue with this show.

[andromeda331]

Jamie, Paul, Abbie, Connie, and Claire

Claire's really dropped down my list. While I really do like her there's a couple episodes where she made mistakes but instead of doing anything about it. She whines. One where she didn't tell Stone that she had an affair with Judge Thayer. Then when forced too she gives some crappy excuse about wanting to keep her private life separate. She knew Stone needed to know. When he and Adam are rightly mad she quits. She caused a problem she didn't need to. The other is when she learns a guy she made a deal with turned out to have serious mental problems and murdered five people including a kid, and takes no responsibility for it. Yeah, she was busy that week but she also chose not to take a call from his sister. 

Connie would probably be hire but Jamie, Paul and Abbie were already good good. 

 

 

[Palimelon]

Well, at least Claire wasn't fired for being a lesbian ;)

[TakomaSnark]

1. Abbie

2. Jamie

3. Connie

4. Paul

5. Borgia

6. Claire

7. Serena

Honestly, I've never gotten the Claire love. She demonstrated terrible personal decision-making - the affair with Judge Thayer and an affair with Jack McCoy. Both of her bosses. 

 

[Xeliou66]

I liked Claire for the most part, but yeah sleeping with Thayer showed an extreme lack of good judgment from her, especially given what a creepy sleaze Thayer was. And then she didn’t come clean about it to Ben when Thayer was arrested - what was she thinking? That really made Claire look bad. Not sure why she wound up sleeping with Jack, but at least Jack was nothing like Thayer and him and Claire did have strong chemistry. 

[Morrigan2575]

On 8/17/2024 at 5:58 AM, Palimelon said:

So who is your favorite ADA? For me it's probably a tie between Claire and Jaime, followed closely by another tie between Paul and Abbie.

1. Abbie
2. Paul
3. Connie
4. Claire
5. Serena 
6. Alex (didn't get a chance)
7. Jamie (she's awful, IMO)

Edited August 25 by Morrigan2575

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

1. Abbie
2. Paul
3. Connie
4. Claire
5. Serena 
6. Alex (didn't get a chance)
7. Jamie (she's awful, IMO)

That’s an interesting take, I think you’re the first L&O fan I’ve seen to strongly dislike Jamie. Why do you dislike her? I’m curious. 

[Morrigan2575]

18 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

That’s an interesting take, I think you’re the first L&O fan I’ve seen to strongly dislike Jamie. Why do you dislike her? I’m curious. 

Really? I remember looking around a few years ago and, she was rated towards the bottom. 

I found her to be a hypocrite.  I also couldn't stand how many times we were told she's the smartest person to ever work in the DA office. Then she treats Adam like shit, gets very personal with her comments but, somehow the show wanted us to believe Adam was the bad guy. 🙄

That being said, I can at least watch her seasons. I tend to skip right over the Fontana years because I found him annoying/insufferable; he was the worst, IMO.

Edited August 26 by Morrigan2575

[Xeliou66]

37 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Really? I remember looking around a few years ago and, she was rated towards the bottom. 

I found her to be a hypocrite.  I also couldn't stand how many times we were told she's the smartest person to ever work in the DA office. Then she treats Adam like shit, gets very personal with her comments but, somehow the show wanted us to believe Adam was the bad guy. 🙄

That being said, I can at least watch her seasons. I tend to skip right over the Fontana years because I found him annoying/insufferable; he was the worst, IMO.

How did you think Jamie treated Adam like shit? And I never thought the show wanted us to see Adam as a “bad guy” by any means, sure Jamie and Adam disagreed some, and I agree Jamie could be very blunt, but I never saw their relationship as adversarial, certainly not like how Serena and Arthur were so often at odds. 
I don’t like Fontana either, he was an asshole who was borderline unethical and very condescending and lacked compassion. I get that they were going for someone totally different from Lennie but Fontana was just a one note jerk much of the time. 

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

How did you think Jamie treated Adam like shit? And I never thought the show wanted us to see Adam as a “bad guy” by any means, sure Jamie and Adam disagreed some, and I agree Jamie could be very blunt, but I never saw their relationship as adversarial, certainly not like how Serena and Arthur were so often at odds. 

There were a couple of episodes where she was being downright bitchy to Adam, even Jack called her out saying her attacks were getting personal.

Serena and Arthur did conflict on moral grounds, super liberal vs Conservative and that was interesting but, the show never shoved Serena being the bestest eva! In my face. 

It didn't help that the few times they brought Jamie back she became even more of an egotistical ass. I LMAO when they brought her back on the reboot, and she of course did something sketchy.  I remember people acting like Jamie would never have done that but, IMO it totally fit her character.  She was always (IMO) written that she would flout the rules when her moral compass determined they were wrong and she was right. 

[Chaser]

Tier A: Abbie and Connie.

Tier B: Claire.

Tier C: Serena and Jamie.

Just F: Borgia and Current.

Paul I can’t rank because I missed the early seasons and can’t find them to rewatch. I didn’t care for him on the later ones.

I do want to echo that it’s long over due for some gender swapping. It’s crazy we haven’t had a female first chair or another female detective (and I don’t even want to acknowledge the first one).

[Palimelon]

The intro for the pilot episode.

[Morrigan2575]

On 8/26/2024 at 10:14 PM, Chaser said:

Paul I can’t rank because I missed the early seasons and can’t find them to rewatch. I didn’t care for him on the later ones.

Oh man, so you missed Max Greevy? He's one of favorite on the cop side of the show

[Xeliou66]

5 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Oh man, so you missed Max Greevy? He's one of favorite on the cop side of the show

There’s a controversial opinion! I don’t like Greevey - he was rather arrogant and abrasive, and he was absolutely horrible in Life Choice and Prisoner of Love. He had a couple of good moments but he’s one of my least favorites along with Curtis, Fontana and Beauty Queen.   
I like Phil Cerreta a lot, he’s underrated because he comes just before the iconic Lennie, but he was a good character and I liked his partnership with Logan. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 8/26/2024 at 10:14 PM, Chaser said:

Paul I can’t rank because I missed the early seasons and can’t find them to rewatch. I didn’t care for him on the later ones.

Because that wasn’t Paul! That was POD!Paul!

9 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Oh man, so you missed Max Greevy? He's one of favorite on the cop side of the show

Same! Even if Max could be an ass, I loved his even tempered, or rather fair minded opinion in “Death in the Family” episode and other episodes. 

[ByTor]

On 8/17/2024 at 3:15 PM, buttersister said:

I thought McCoy liked her more than he did Mike. I know I did.

I don't blame him, Cutter is so awful he makes me root for the defense.

[ByTor]

1. Connie
2. Claire
3. Alex
4. Serena
5. Jamie
6. Paul
7. Abbie

[Chaser]

9 hours ago, ByTor said:

1. Connie
2. Claire
3. Alex
4. Serena
5. Jamie
6. Paul
7. Abbie

Objection, your honor! Lol

Edited September 7 by Chaser