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Ratings and Scheduling: Hail to the Gods

caracas1914

By caracas1914
in Arrow

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LeighAn
LeighAn

If Arrow gets poor premiere ratings I will personally blame Black Siren/Katie Cassidy,  cause even though that is not how ratings work like at all I was promised tens of millions of viewers would tune

Chaser
Chaser

So when you talked about being protective of Oliver this season....you weren't talking about his intelligence right?

tv echo
tv echo

If Arrow ratings had gone up this season, would anyone be giving credit to S3 and S4?  No, of course not.  They'd be crediting the current season of the show.   But because ratings have gone down

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

I think tvseriesfinale uses Live + SD?  They have Arrow's drop as third largest for the network, behind Supergirl and iZombie.

http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/cw-2016-17-season-ratings/

I think that's about right. I used the spotted ratings information to compare all the CW shows in another post and I remember shows like The 100 were showing close drops to Arrow.

I'm pretty sure spotted ratings is also Live+SD

Starfish35

Starfish35

(edited)

Yeah I think they both use Live + SD, so I'm not sure why the numbers are different.  Some are really close but others, like The Originals, are quite different.

TV Series Finale - year-to-year change:

  1. Supergirl 55.8%
  2. iZombie 39.31%
  3. Arrow 33.54%
  4. Crazy Ex-Girlfriend 31.79%
  5. Reign 31.14%
  6. The 100 28.03%
  7. The Flash 22.59%
  8. Legends of Tomorrow 20.37%
  9. The Vampire Diaries 17.39%
  10. Supernatural 14.49%
  11. The Originals 12.83%
  12. Jane the Virgin 3.6%

Spotted Ratings - year-to-year change:

  1. Supergirl 56%
  2. iZombie 46%
  3. Crazy Ex-Girlfriend 35%
  4. Reign 35%
  5. Arrow 34%
  6. The 100 32%
  7. The Vampire Diaries 25%
  8. The Originals 24%
  9. The Flash 23%
  10. Legends of Tomorrow 20%
  11. Supernatural 17%
  12. Jane the Virgin 7%
Edited by Starfish35
theOAfc

theOAfc

(edited)
On 15/5/2017 at 9:21 PM, Trisha said:

So Arrow did indeed experience the greatest demo drop of all CW shows after being the only CW show last year to not drop (I don't think Supergirl can be included, since going from CBS to CW is apples and oranges). Ouch. 

I am confused with this chart. Does it compare the previous season ratings to this season ratings? If so,that probably means that the 31% ratings drop is due to 1)latest episodes of season 4 making people tune out(which explains the 0.7 season 5 premiere) and 2) the fact that s5 didnt help the ratings at all. 

I would love to see a chart that shows the ratings drop throughout this season, both in demo live ratings and live+SD numbers because it would be a better sign of exactly how s5 was perceived by general audience.

Edited by theOAfc
apinknightmare

apinknightmare

2 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Does that count the CW app/site if I stream it? Cuz I go through a lot of effort to rig my VPNs and stream the Felicity eps over and over. It occurred to me I should check that, that counts!

It doesn't count toward the Nielsens at all, but it counts as in The CW is seeing that you are interested (and I imagine if there are any particular scenes you like, it's good if you rewatch those) on the app.

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LeighAn

LeighAn

1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

0.9 is good right?

Does that count the CW app/site if I stream it? Cuz I go through a lot of effort to rig my VPNs and stream the Felicity eps over and over. It occurred to me I should check that, that counts!

I believe last season they were getting 1.0+ in live +7. So there's still a decline which essentially means you could reasonably speculate that people aren't watching other shows in Arrows timeslot and then coming back to watch Arrow.

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strikera0

strikera0

6 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I believe last season they were getting 1.0+ in live +7. So there's still a decline which essentially means you could reasonably speculate that people aren't watching other shows in Arrows timeslot and then coming back to watch Arrow.

Arrow was still getting 1.3's at the start of the season. It's been hitting 0.9's since episode 14. 

Belinea

Belinea

(edited)

Is it just me or do most shows these days have numbers that are quite low? Are these people just not watching or have they completely turned to streaming? I always assumed ratings decline if people stop watching but maybe these days it is a combination of both. Does the CW ever talk about their streaming numbers? I do assume that they measure them but I have never actively noticed them talking about it.

Edited by Belinea
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theOAfc

theOAfc

(edited)
23 hours ago, Belinea said:

Are these people just not watching or have they completely turned to streaming?

Probably both. That being said,a drop percentage for a show individually from year to year but also throughout the season will probably translate into drop in streaming numbers too. Especially if a show is not relatively new. 

Edited by theOAfc
BunsenBurner

BunsenBurner

(edited)

I saw this on twitter and since it mentioned Arrow I thought you all might like it. 

The FliteCast‏ ‪@TheFliteCast

In talking to people on Twitter about DCTV, I've found that a lot of them have no idea how TV actually works. That's depressing.

 
As someone that actually works in TV and is a huge fan of it, I think it's important for people to realize how it is changing.
              





In the last number of years, people have been cutting the cable cord more and more each year, meaning that live TV numbers are less reliable 


People do not watch their favorite shows live nearly as much anymore. They now watch on demand and on apps and services like Netflix/Hulu.


Not only that, but the networks all have different goals and standards when it comes to their primetime aired shows.


So if your argument about why Arrow sucks includes how bad its live numbers are, that's a flawed argument to make.


The CW is not a traditional network. They have different standards and they also embrace digital platforms more than others do.






So judging it against shows on other networks is foolhardy. They're not really competing against them head-to-head like that.






The CW itself has stated that they embrace the "7-day viewing window" which is more than just live numbers for a show.


They overhauled their mobile app for that purpose, and those shows are still ad sold online.


 



So unless you can tell me that the number of people who watch Arrow online went down, your ratings argument is incomplete.






And this would be true of so many shows today. Who still watches shows live that much today? Especially among younger people?






I know people that wait until a season of a show is completely over and then binge it because they don't like waiting a week at a time.






That group of people that do that is getting larger, not smaller. Just look at ESPN.


ESPN has been bleeding money by the millions because cable subscribers are backing out and going all Internet/streaming.


ESPN no longer gets their subscriber fee from those people, who in turn watch their shows streaming and not live.






This is why live number ratings are becoming obsolete and nearly inadmissible in an argument. They don't show the whole picture.


On top of that, are people aware of how many different ways a TV show can make money as opposed to a movie?






BOTH make money, there is no question, but there are so many different options that a show has that a movie doesn't always have.


Syndication deals, re-transmission, streaming rights, ad revenue, etc. Long-running TV shows can be a gold mine.






Not to mention secondary market and home viewing sales, which both take advantage of for sure...






But when someone buys one movie, it's a lot different than buying five seasons of a whole show.






People need to realize this before they rely on outdated and quickly changing arguments to support their point about a show they don't like.






OR, they could simply not watch said show and ignore it without complaint.






I suppose that might be too much to ask though.






Whether people think it sucks or not is irrelevant. The point is that it DOES succeed, whether people admit it or not.


Edited by BunsenBurner
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Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

20 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

So if your argument about why Arrow sucks includes how bad its live numbers are, that's a flawed argument to make.

 









Whether people think it sucks or not is irrelevant. The point is that it DOES succeed, whether people admit it or not.


The first sentence is obvious. I mean if a show "sucks" depends on what a person likes. It can suck for me and be awesome for someone else and viceversa. Low live numbers just mean less people are watching live.

If it does succeed or doesn't is something that depends on a person's definition of success that also depends on expectations and a judgment can be made by people that have all the numbers so not us and not him/her. So good thread, flawed conclusion for me.

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theOAfc

theOAfc

(edited)

I'm sorry but this poster is trying to claim that ratings don't reveal much about a show and whether a show is actually good but then the same person implies that just because arrow sells online, it doesn't suck. We all know online streaming is getting more and more powerful by the time. Still the point remains. Arrow has dropped a lot in ratings since 4x15 and that possibly translates into general lack of interest regarding it. Unless we are to assume that just this year so many people decided to not watch it live and stream it. Which makes zero sense. 

35 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

 




So unless you can tell me that the number of people who watch Arrow online went down, your ratings argument is incomplete.


 

Where's the proof that they went up though? Cause ratings dropped so unless online views went up A LOT, people rightfully claim that arrow Is no longer selling as much. This poster claims that ratings don't reveal much about a shows quality and then proceeds to use the possibility of online views not going down to justify why arrow doesn't suck as a show. Logic lost.

I'm pretty sure, based on his original point(the he contradicts on his own tweets) whether arrow sucks or not won't be decided by either ratings or online views. So he can't demand proof that online views went down as a way to shut down claims that arrow decreasing on ratings means it sucks. He is contradicting his own arguments. 

However, people can rightfully say that arrow is no longer as popular as it was, based on its individual ratings drop percentage. 

And I'm pretty sure a show on its 5th season that has such big drop in ratings from one season to another, won't increase on its overall online views. But anyone feel free to provide data that proves otherwise. 

Edited by theOAfc
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lemotomato

lemotomato

(edited)

Arrow's ratings live ratings dropped 34%, but all the other DCTV shows dropped significantly too this season. Flash's live ratings dropped 23%, LoT dropped 20%. So if you're going to say that Arrow's ratings are bad because it sucks, then you'd have to apply that logic to the other shows too. 

And the OP isn't claiming that online views went up or that they cancel out the live ratings drops, he said that unless you know how many people are watching online and other platforms, you can't draw conclusions about ratings, much less use it as "evidence" to back up claims that the show is bad. That's literally what he said.

Quote

Unless you can tell me that the number of people who watch Arrow online went down, your ratings argument is incomplete.

And I just want to state the obvious, but just because a group of people don't like what's going on with the show, that doesn't mean the show is bad. It just means those people don't like it. And unless they're Nielsen viewers, their opinions don't affect the ratings.

Edited by lemotomato
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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

16 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

And I just want to state the obvious, but just because a group of people don't like what's going on with the show, that doesn't mean the show is bad. It just means those people don't like it. And unless they're Nielsen viewers, their opinions don't

Can this be pinned to the top of the ratings thread in big bold letters?!

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LeighAn

LeighAn

14 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Arrow's ratings live ratings dropped 34%, but all the other DCTV shows dropped significantly too this season. Flash's live ratings dropped 23%, LoT dropped 20%. So if you're going to say that Arrow's ratings are bad because it sucks, then you'd have to apply that logic to the other shows too. 

And the OP isn't claiming that online views went up or that they cancel out the live ratings drops, he said that unless you know how many people are watching online and other platforms, you can't draw conclusions about ratings, much less use it as "evidence" to back up claims that the show is bad. That's literally what he said.

And I just want to state the obvious, but just because a group of people don't like what's going on with the show, that doesn't mean the show is bad. It just means those people don't like it. And unless they're Nielsen viewers, their opinions don't affect the ratings.

Agree. I'm pretty sure the point being made is that live ratings don't prove or disprove that the show sucks. It's something a lot of people have said through various ways but doesn't seem to sink into parts of fandom. That ratings don't determine why people watch or their opinions on the quality of the content. It's just a measurement of how many people watch it what age demographics and to this persons point a probably flawed measurement in the new streaming content landscape *shrug*

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leopardprint

leopardprint

I thought the ratings argument has been primarily used to support arguments about specific story elements that have had varying degrees of prominence between seasons not so much "It sucks" or "It doesn't suck." 

Also, the CW controls the data about streaming and doesn't control Nielsen (afaik), so who knows if what they say is the objective truth? Like when Netflix said Iron Fist was their most watched show ever which seemed questionable at least. 

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theOAfc

theOAfc

(edited)
10 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Arrow's ratings live ratings dropped 34%, but all the other DCTV shows dropped significantly too this season. Flash's live ratings dropped 23%, LoT dropped 20%. So if you're going to say that Arrow's ratings are bad because it sucks, then you'd have to apply that logic to the other shows too. 

 

I dont know whats your point here. That arrow isnt doing bad because other DC cw shows are also having bad ratings? Cause to me this drop in these shows mainly reveals that they are no longer selling as they used to and that the dctv era is coming to an end,which was expected considering how fast many of these type of shows were created. Apart from the fact that a 33% drop is not the same as a 23% drop,just looking at those numbers shows that these shows are losing fans. Again my point is,are we supposed to believe that suddenly people who watch flash, arrow and lot decided to stream them instead of live watch them? Isnt this a thing that happens the last 5-10 years anyway? Why are people only  mentioning it now ? To justify how ratings drop means nothing? Seems like a desperate attempt of some to diminish arguments about how arrow is no longer selling as much. 

How is this poster talking about how more people are binge watching arrow? Where are the numbers backing it up? Or can anyone really just go out and claim they know stuff ? I know that in most sites i visit arrow has dropped in both download numbers and views. And i know that arrow is not making the social media lists anymore as it  used to. It simply doesnt create as much buzz.  Anyone who pays a little attention can see that. Then again,i can talk about what i see in free sites i visit since im not cliaming that i have seen actual never seen before data regarding its online streaming. IM finding it hard to believe that contrary to what i see around,arrow is indeed having more online views for this season. And i dont understand how this poster can already talk about arrow views going up when s5 hasnt even been available on the most popular streaming site,Netflix. Is he seeing the future too? 

Arrow is being  binged watched since season 1. It was binge watched in s4. Yet ratings for most part were steady back then. From end of s4 to end of s5 ratings kept dropping. A lot. Same happened with the plus 7 rating numbers. A logic assumption would be that this kind of drop would translate into online views drop. Especially since the show is no longer fresh ,its in its 5th season. I say logical because the idea that people just now decided to stop watching live and binge watch instead is simply stupid. So again,the question is,why are people always talking about how arrow is doing well in online streaming as a way to  justify how ratings drop doesnt mean it is losing popularity? Cause im pretty sure thats what the poster implied. Feel free to check his account and convos with other people. 

Edited by theOAfc
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lemotomato

lemotomato

(edited)

My point is that you have no way to quantify "this show sucks" through Nielsen ratings. The only people that actually know how many people are watching/why they watch are the CW folks who have market data research and possibly focus group feedback. 

Honestly, I trust the opinion of people that actually work in the industry over people like us that just have access to numbers Nielsen releases to the public, which I understand is not even the complete data.

Edited by lemotomato
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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

(edited)

I think there is some confusion.  The way I understood it, the poster was not making any of his own claims, just that using only the ratings data wasn't enough to prove anything about quality of a show and was explaining why that was true and what other data was out there that if anyone knew, probably would be a much better way of knowing if the ratings drop was more indicative of suckage or not.  

Personally, I think the quality did dip in the first half and the ratings very well might have reflected that.  Or maybe that ratings dip will get made up for in binge watching since IMO the quality increased in the back half and there might be buzz.  But we really don't know, so using the ratings data isn't a great way of proving anything.  

Edited by BkWurm1
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Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

10 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Arrow's ratings live ratings dropped 34%, but all the other DCTV shows dropped significantly too this season. Flash's live ratings dropped 23%, LoT dropped 20%. So if you're going to say that Arrow's ratings are bad because it sucks, then you'd have to apply that logic to the other shows too. 

And the OP isn't claiming that online views went up or that they cancel out the live ratings drops, he said that unless you know how many people are watching online and other platforms, you can't draw conclusions about ratings, much less use it as "evidence" to back up claims that the show is bad. That's literally what he said.

And I just want to state the obvious, but just because a group of people don't like what's going on with the show, that doesn't mean the show is bad. It just means those people don't like it. And unless they're Nielsen viewers, their opinions don't affect the ratings.

The only problem with what that guy is saying is that he ends his argument saying that the show does succeed after making a thread saying people are ridiculous for saying the show doesn’t when they don't have the complete datas. He is doing exactly what he blames people for and the only difference is his is a positive spin, LOL

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