Ratings and Scheduling: Hail to the Gods

[theOAfc]

19 hours ago, Angel12d said:

IDK either tbh. LOL. Personally I think they lost more general audience than comic book readers so I don't think the news of a new BC will make any difference. But if they do expect her to be a ratings draw, it's still too early to make that call.

The people that dropped the show are general viewers. The vast majority of the comic book readers dont even watch live(they are just very active on the internet). Adding a new BC is pretty much DC forcing her rather than the EPs thinking it will draw viewers. DC is promoting GA/BC on comics a lot. Especially their love story. I assume they are testing things using the (obviously bigger) tv popularity of the characters either to increase sales or to test the waters for a potential GA/BC  debut on the big screen. 

[Morrigan2575]

4 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

Thanks for the numbers!

Arrow has pretty unusual numbers for S3 and S4 -- the usual for CW shows is a steady decline season to season, so a rando 5 year show is more or less where Arrow is right now anyway. Whereas Arrow held those supernaturally steady ratings for S3 and 4A. And then the dam broke.
 

Couple of possibilities about S2 and S3 ratings. S2 could have been down due to Revolution which was moved opposite Arrow that season. It was canceled after S2, so the drop/comeback in 2/3 could have been related to Arrow having direct competition. I initially thought S5 was down due to Lethal Weapon being competition.

However, a more likely scenario is that S3 had a huge bump for Flash simply existing and drawing viewers to both shows. The S3 and S4 Crossover benefitted Arrow a lot and they managed to hold those numbers for several episodes, possibly based on the cliffhangers used (Oliver dead, Felicity dead/injured).

With S5 I imagine it could be a few different things, casual viewers tuning out due to Magic and/or BMD (big drop after 415). Could be related to competition Lethal Weapon drawing viewers away (maybe but Arrow didn't really grow this week without LW) or possibly Superhero fatigue? Maybe general viewers don't want to watch all 4 shows so they're dropping Arrow for the younger shows?

[Belinea]

35 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

test the waters for a potential GA/BC  debut on the big screen. 

The DC people/WB are such a mess. No movie of theirs is well received. They are just so reactionary. Instead of telling a good story they just go for the, as MG would say, 'epicness' of their comic characters. Meanwhile they forget just Batman or Superman in a movie doesn't make a good movie if you have a bad story. Apparently they meddled with SS and now with the Flash and the Ben Affleck Batman because they have so many people with opinions. The guy at the front, Geoff Johns, writes  comics but has never produced a movie or anything close to it. Yet they praise him as being the next Kevin Feige. 

Now they want to add to the big screen again: Since Margot Robbie was well received there will be another movie for Harley Quinn (maybe BC will be in that one), also a Dwayne Johnson movie, Justice League 2 even though Justice League hasn't even premiered, a Cyborg movie... Their strategy is to throw all their characters at the audience in hopes that something will stick. Regardless of the quality. Yes, they want to make successful movies but seem to have a really hard time to make it work in their universe.

I have no idea who in the writer's room or on the producers's side or the WB/DC/CW side thought that what Arrow needed after 5 seasons was a new canary and Wild Dog. Someone wanted that to happen and if they want to go for BC/GA, they will.  Even though the viewer might be the last person to catch on. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Belinea

[Chaser]

I still say it's not about GA/BC, its about BC (thinking Gotham Sirens).

I think the 'request' was put her on the show and put her everywhere. I still don't think she will be a major player but I do think she will have a major presence. In the background but in the background everywhere. The only one interacting with everyone.

[theOAfc]

36 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I still say it's not about GA/BC, its about BC (thinking Gotham Sirens).

I think the 'request' was put her on the show and put her everywhere. I still don't think she will be a major player but I do think she will have a major presence. In the background but in the background everywhere. The only one interacting with everyone.

Youre not wrong. I heard she is even bigger of a hero in the DC universe than GA so maybe they want to simply promote her. However im pretty sure the BC redo on arrow is a DC decision. Doubt MG or Wendy cared at all.

[ladylaw99]

Question:  If she is such a big hero, why didn't they just have a show for her?  (Sorry know nothing about comics)

I keep hearing that she is a great character, important hero, so I am curious why they just don't do a film or show based on her character?

[theOAfc]

Just now, ladylaw99 said:

Question:  If she is such a big hero, why didn't they just have a show for her?  (Sorry know nothing about comics)

 

You never know. Maybe they will test waters for a BC spinoff show or even a birds of prey. 

[Morrigan2575]

10 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

Youre not wrong. I heard she is even bigger of a hero in the DC universe than GA so maybe they want to simply promote her. However im pretty sure the BC redo on arrow is a DC decision. Doubt MG or Wendy cared at all.

I don't think that's true. Most rankings put GA in a higher group (B/C) vs (C/D). The BC and most recent BoP titles sell/Sold significantly less than the GA title.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

It's probably why they need her on Arrow. Raise her profile for mainstream audiences.

[statsgirl]

It was a few years ago that I read the research but basically it was that girls will watch shows and movies about girls and boys but boys will only watch if they're about boys.  That's why most shows have a 3 or 4 to 1 male/female ratio, and even shows that are women titular (e.g. The Closer) have a cast primarily composed of men.  (Castle and Bones are exceptions with their almost equal male/female casts.)  Even Supergirl has Kara and Alex vs J'onn, Winn, James and now Mon El.

That's why I think it's doubtful that a BoP will fly, so to speak.

Also, DC does terrible movies because they think they don't need a good story, the epic characters on screen will do it all.  And I'm not sure they're not right.  I personally get bored by the long fights scenes (when I go to a Marvel movie, I know I'm in for a long period of boredom at the beginning) an maybe it does work for movies.

But it for sure doesn't work for TV because you've got to produce 23 x 43 minutes of programming a year so fights won't carry it, the stories have to be good enough that people will want to watch them.  The Baby Mama Drama/Olicity break-up was just a terrible story in every way.

Arrow needs to figure out what people want to watch and if they don't have the money to do it, offer it to someone taking communications for their undergrad thesis.

[theOAfc]

12 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Arrow needs to figure out what people want to watch and if they don't have the money to do it, offer it to someone taking communications for their undergrad thesis.

From what i have seen around, general fans who enjoy this season say that they are just happy there is no melodrama and that the fight scenes as well as the main villain, are better(to be fair,anything beats S4 magic). I feel like a large part of the cw superhero audience watches these shows just to kill time instead of invest in these characters. LoT for example doesnt have many passionate fans even though many of those watching will tell you its a fun show. Arrow has a fanbase that once upon a time invested on the characters thats why it's mainly the fanbase that is mad at the show since 4b and not the general viewers. General viewers simply follow the trend(for example the felicity hate trend last season).

Flash, much like arrow in earlier seasons,has a passionate fanbase that invests in the characters.

But general viewers also seem to find it hard to accept the new team arrow after 4 years of the same characters. Many comment on how the show has over done it with the masks so i think part of why the viewership fails to hit that 0.7 ever since the show came back from mini christmas hiatus is because the people cant bother to check a show full of characters they either stopped caring or never managed to care about. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by theOAfc

[kismet]

I would feel more comfortable with the direction of the show if the new BC was a DC mandate rather than a Writers room idea. I don't like DC medling but I prefer it over the Writers thinking they need to tinker with a character they failed at for 5 years and 3 versions. I don't understand what their plans are, but I do think they are trying to raise the BC profile for reasons. 

[lemotomato]

8 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

Thanks for the numbers!

Arrow has pretty unusual numbers for S3 and S4 -- the usual for CW shows is a steady decline season to season, so a rando 5 year show is more or less where Arrow is right now anyway. Whereas Arrow held those supernaturally steady ratings for S3 and 4A. And then the dam broke.

Which -- the dam broke in 2B as well. The crossover saved them. It inflated the ratings BIG TIME in S3, then did it again with less intensity in S4. Which I'm sure everyone was counting on happening again in S5. Except... the thing that was  artificially keeping Arrow ratings steady stopped working after this exodus. Barry Allen, you have failed this city.

That's a good point, I never thought of it that way. I always thought the talk about Arrow ratings being preternaturally steady was just talk, but it's true that if it had followed the normal pattern of audience erosion the drop this season wouldn't look so dramatic.

I wonder if the CW is worried that crossovers don't give any of the shows the boost they used to. 

[Sunshine]

I think Season 2 was also hurt by the Winter Olympics.  IIRC 2B took an extra break or 2 because of Olympics coverage. Viewers were confused as to when Arrow was on.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Sunshine said:

I think Season 2 was also hurt by the Winter Olympics.  IIRC 2B took an extra break or 2 because of Olympics coverage. Viewers were confused as to when Arrow was on.

All networks were on Hiatus for Winter Olympics, nothing new aired opposite them except for (IIRC) cable shows. I doubt that had much impact.

[Sunshine]

Well I could never figure out when they were back.?

[kismet]

13 hours ago, Sunshine said:

Well I could never figure out when they were back.?

That's not an Olympic year problem, that's a CW problem in general - every year, every season. They take the oddest mini-breaks and return dates. It's also problematic to me that there is no consistency across the board for shows. One show returns this week, the next one two weeks later. Then they air an episode and take another random break. It's bizarre.

[Soulfire]

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/the-sked-wednesday-ratings-2-8-2017.html

[Velocity23]

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/the-sked-wednesday-ratings-2-8-2017.html

0.6 and 1.6 mil viewers

[Morrigan2575]

 Arrow might be back in 5th place this week. SPN has been getting around 1.7 million per week

[Chaser]

Ignoring any and all other factors, I guess NuC wasn't a big audience get.

[tv echo]

That's lower than last week in terms of total viewers.

[Chaser]

Right. They didn't stick around.

It fits the whole 'end on a Oliver / BC note and the next episode goes down'. Like I said, it ignores other factors and I'm bias. But if I was looking at spotlighting BC and GA more, this wouldn't be a positive sign. The previous episode was full of BC and the preview for this one showed more BC.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Chaser

[Primal Slayer]

Laurel Lance stop chasing those viewers away lol.

[Chaser]

I do think at this point there is a lot of audience apathy about BC. This is rinse, rather, repeat regardless of who is carrying the title at the time.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Chaser

[Angel12d]

Well, whatever happened in 511 didn't have the viewers rushing back. Yikes. (Not surprised though, I still can't get through that episode. Bored.com.)

Same old consistent demo though.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Angel12d

[Morrigan2575]

I think it's too early to make any call. Right now best I can say is that Tinah neither helps nor hurts the ratings

[EmilyBettFan]

5x10 led to better ratings for 5x11 and now 5x11 dropped ratings for 5x12. Ugh if 5x13 has raised ratings it hopefully won't be turned around to being a good for Rene. Wild dong is just so annoying with his always proclaiming "I'm gonna be there with my guns to!!."

[MaisyDaisy]

Does anyone know the raw (unrounded) numbers of the demi? 

[Starfish35]

Final ratings

I think this might be a series low in total viewers?

Edited February 9, 2017 by Starfish35

[Morrigan2575]

Seems pretty low in viewers. I think Arrow will end up hitting 0.5 and 1.5 million before the end of the season.

[Sakura12]

Wow, that's low. Even when LoT beat them in the demo, Arrow beat them in total viewers.

It looks like their back to basics isn't working. They chose to back the wrong horse. You'd think they'd know that comic book readers are a small minority going by thier sales numbers. 

[Belinea]

I guess it is not surprising that shows lose viewers as they get older but Arrow really seem to have made many general viewers disengage. They decided to do many weird story choices (Diggle's son still makes me mad) and while critics or even just comic fans seem to be happy with season 5, some general audience doesn't seem to tune in. So you have to ask yourself what speaks louder: numbers or critical reception. Since they have been renewed and I choose to believe that DC still makes tons of money of the DCTV properties so I am not worried but I assume they still aren't jumping with joy when looking at those numbers.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Belinea

[MaisyDaisy]

I do think there is a lot of ego and hubris tied to ratings. When they get this low writers, EPs and actors like to point out how flawed the rating system is, but are silent about other indicators like social media traffic or live7+ ratings usually correlating.

They took a gamble and it didn't pay off. They obviously got either dictated to, or listened to the wrong advice, because they made missteps about what was popular, and lots a huge amount of viewers as a result.

[AyChihuahua]

1 minute ago, MaisyDaisy said:

I do think there is a lot of ego and hubris tied to ratings. When they get this low writers, EPs and actors like to point out how flawed the rating system is, but are silent about other indicators like social media traffic or live7+ ratings usually correlating.

They took a gamble and it didn't pay off. They obviously got either dictated to, or listened to the wrong advice, because they made missteps about what was popular, and lots a huge amount of viewers as a result.

I think there was an article that C+ ratings, which are the ones they really care about, pretty closely track regular ratings, too. So yeah, I'm sure that at least somebody is unhappy. The CW, maybe? 

[kismet]

Vocal minority, I'm happy about the ratings slide. The show made some bad choices in s3, then they made even more in s4 but with more far reaching character consequences. S5 was reset in the wrong direction. Their bad choices perhaps triggered the slides. I can only hope they regroup and bring the show back to what made it awesome and forget about back to basics. Back to basics is a a good strategy if your goal is to bring it back to the heart and core of the show, not just literally the basic plot & characters structure that was setup a few years ago. They didn't bring it back to basics, they found their plot scraps and dressed them up with newbies. And when they were out of those, they just made cheap reproductions of scenes we already saw.

I don't enjoy seeing a good show lose its footing and fans. I also don't like when a good show goes bad, and the ratings don't reflect the drop in quality. Quality TV deserves ratings and/or dedicated fanbases. Arrow had that at one point. I was a devoted fans and if the show indicated any commitment to returning to quality, I would reactivate my boarding pass. But if you're going to be a mediocre show, than expect mediocre ratings. I don't want to be happy, but I will be happy that TV viewers can recognize the show is stumbling and find something else to entertain themselves with on Weds @ 8p.

[LeighAn]

2 hours ago, Belinea said:

I guess it is not surprising that shows lose viewers as they get older but Arrow really seem to have made many general viewers disengage.

I was actually curious how Arrow held up against other 5th season CW shows and the only two CW shows that have gotten that far in my memory is Vampire Diaries and Gossip  Girl. I don't count WB shows that already came with in built audiences and didn't have their fifth season on CW like Smallville or OTH or Gilmore Girls or Supernatural.

In season 5 Vampire diaries was averarging a 1.0 demo with 2-2.5 million veiwers

In season 5 of Gossip Girl they were averaging a 0.6 with 1-1.2 million veiwers.

So Arrow seems to be loosely similar to the Gossip Girl model ratings as season 5 saw GG bleed veiwers but maintain a somewhat steady demo. 

They did hit 0.5 and 0.4s within the spring part of the season and season 6 ended up averaging 0.5 in the demo.

[MaisyDaisy]

The thing is that comparisons need to be taken loosely on the CW, as the network, how shows are watched and even what qualifies a show for renewal has shifted quite a bit from when those shows had their 5th season.

Nikita and HoD both got axed for ratings that would have seen them renewed now. TVD and GG both had some really contentious plot directions in seasons 5 and 6 as well. 

I think that Arrow bucked trends with the way that it at times increased and held steady (for along time the best on CW) particularly in areas like live+3, and the less important live+7. It doesn't fit the pattern of other CW shows, because the ratings dived from a place of unusual stability when two majorly unpopular plot lines happened. 

If it's not broken, don't fix it, I guess. If Arrow had continued on it's path from 4A onward, I think we would have seen a season decline, but still less then average for a CW show. What it was doing worked for the general audience.  

[Primal Slayer]

Of all the shows I've watched in my lifetime thus far, I've never seen one that pissed on practically every single fanbase they had and then basically saying "we are bored with the old so we wanted to bring in a bunch of newbies" only 5 seasons in was laughable. 

[lemotomato]

15 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Of all the shows I've watched in my lifetime thus far, I've never seen one that pissed on practically every single fanbase they had and then basically saying "we are bored with the old so we wanted to bring in a bunch of newbies" only 5 seasons in was laughable. 

But Arrow didn't piss off every fan base. The online reviews have been consistently positive and "season 5 is the best season since season 2!!" has been a very common refrain in most comments sections.

But like I've said before, it looks like those people aren't Nielsen households.

[Chaser]

18 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

 

But like I've said before, it looks like those people aren't Nielsen households.

Or active on Social Media. Given how big and active the fandom was, you have to really suck at your job to beat that down. 

[lemotomato]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

Or active on Social Media. Given how big and active the fandom was, you have to really suck at your job to beat that down. 

They beat down the group in fandom that was the loudest and most willing to do their PR for them, definitely.

[Primal Slayer]

25 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

But Arrow didn't piss off every fan base. The online reviews have been consistently positive and "season 5 is the best season since season 2!!" has been a very common refrain in most comments sections.

But like I've said before, it looks like those people aren't Nielsen households.

Thats why I threw practically in there. Laurel fans/Olicity Fans/Felicity fans/Thea fans/comic fans to an extent. 

[MaisyDaisy]

24 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

But Arrow didn't piss off every fan base. The online reviews have been consistently positive and "season 5 is the best season since season 2!!" has been a very common refrain in most comments sections.

Hahaha, so true. Every time I see that written I want to ask them how successful it can be considered given the ratings?

[Morrigan2575]

24 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

But Arrow didn't piss off every fan base. The online reviews have been consistently positive and "season  5 is the best season since season 2!!" has been a very common refrain in most comments sections.

But like I've said before, it looks like those people aren't Nielsen households.

I came across this writeup a few years ago. I think it's interesting given the 30% drop in year-to-year ratings as well as the lack of fandom support in S5 (whether it's Okicity shippers, KC/LL fans, Felicity/EBR fans, etc

 https://www.google.com.mx/amp/s/versusthefans.com/2013/04/24/fandom-vs-general-audiences/amp/

Quote

General audiences don’t really seem to be affected by what a TV show is doing, as long as there is a (good) story being told.  The fandom is much more vocal and critical about the direction a story takes, and it makes sense.  Fandom knows the show inside and out and spends extra time talking about and engaging in the TV show long after it airs.

I have no idea what turned general viewers off but, it certainly seems that something has impacted both viewer types.

[tangerine95]

I'm not suprised general audience doesn't seem to like this season anymore than the fandom does, at least looking at the ratings. I mean in 5A especially they took everything someone might like about the show and sidelined it for new characters and dynamics. So whatever the reason for someone watching it basically wasn't there anymore or got much less focus. I'll never get them thinking a show in season 5 that has it's established audience needs a reboot like what they tried to do. 

[statsgirl]

Like fans who use a lot of social media, TV reviewers are a biased group, or rather TV reviewers for sites like Green Arrow TV and Comic Book (whatever it is). They don't get paid, or they don't get paid much so they write for the love of the show. or the genre.  It makes sense that many of those reviewers would love this "back to basics with more masks! more Canaries!" season while the general audience, who just wants a good story, is getting turned off.

5 hours ago, MaisyDaisy said:

They took a gamble and it didn't pay off. They obviously got either dictated to, or listened to the wrong advice, because they made missteps about what was popular, and lots a huge amount of viewers as a result.

On the plus side, it makes an Oliver/Felicity reunion more like this season since it's a popular thing and they won't want to risk  having even more viewers leave over the summer.

[Sunshine]

If they would write more episodes like 5.12,  where everybody got something (except Thea), they might do a better job of retaining their general audience.  

I wonder if they thought Supergirl moving to the CW would bring in a bunch of new eyeballs so DC/WB wanted to showcase as many new comics characters as possible.

[kismet]

I think general audience like good stories. I don't think Arrow is providing that anymore. They are giving masks and new characters, but recycled & subpar stories. @AyChihuahua used the word pedestrian in another thread, and that is what Arrow has become. With all the amazing TV available on network, cable and streaming, people are less likely to stick around for a rather predictable boring story with gutted characters, even if the action scenes are tighter this season. I can't think of one storyline this season that has pulled me in, intrigued me or even satisfied a basic need like justice.

I feel like general audiences either needs a rewarding story to invest in for an hour or a story to turn back into to see what happens. Fans need some level of trust and/or commitment from the writers/TPTB to their favorite characters or stories. This season has hit flat for general audiences and particular groups of the fanbase. Satisfaction may be there for some people in the comments sections or some critics. But I think overall s5, will not be seen as a successful season when its look upon as a whole. The general audience is meh and fans have lost trust in the writers. Its going to take more than one good episode to build back the excitement and trust. And so far, Arrow has been stumbling on even delivering one whole good episode.

[Primal Slayer]

Knowing this show, next season they will be saying how it didnt go as they wanted and how the new season will be an improvement (as they've had the last 2 years)