Spoilers and Spoiler Discussion

[Ruby25]

-------

How is Barry going to defeat Zoom anyway? He didn't actually stop Reverse Flash or Trajectory. Even if he manages to catch him - and it looks he does next episode - then what? Maybe they try to 'cure' him, if that's even possible?

 

I think that might be what Caitlin is going to do. There's evidence that Zoom either kidnaps her or she goes with him voluntarily, because neither she or Teddy Sears are in episode 21 except for one scene. That's according to Kevin Smith and the actors.

 

I was thinking that she'd be kidnapped and he's trying to force her to cure him, but it's possible she goes with him of her own free will, given all the feelings she had for Jay.

[phoenics]

But this isn't the same Jay that was with her ... right? So confusing.

[bettername2come]

So are we thinking there might be 4 people who look like Teddy Sears? A Jay from each earth and a Hunter Zolomon from each? Dead Jay, Man in the Iron Mask (probably), Zoom and Hunter Zolomon of Earth 1, right? Twins or a literal split personality?

[Trini]

So are we thinking there might be 4 people who look like Teddy Sears? A Jay from each earth and a Hunter Zolomon from each? Dead Jay, Man in the Iron Mask (probably), Zoom and Hunter Zolomon of Earth 1, right? Twins or a literal split personality?

 

Ugh. Proabably; but I'm still hoping that Iron Mask is Eddie Thawne -- he was very underutilized last season, but I still miss Cosnett.

[bettername2come]

I wanted Iron Mask to be Ronnie because not finding a body never sits well with me, but it's clearly a blonde guy so Eddie or Jay. And he did spell Jay, so...

[phoenics]

I think it's two Jay Garrick's and two Hunter Zolomon's.

I think E2's HZ is Zoom, E2's Jay Garrick is the Jay we saw all season, E1's HZ is the guy we saw when Caitlin and Jay found him on that fall day that aired in the middle of winter, and the Man in the Mask is E1's Jay Garrick.

I had a theory a while back that Zoom was a future Jay Garrick, and present E2 Jay Garrick didn't know he became Zoom, but that theory was shot when Zoom killed him.

Another theory is that E1 Jay G split into two people, good Jay Garrick who was with Cait all season and bad Zoom. But I think in a promo they say that his real name is Hunter Zolomon, so I think that's who Zoom is.

But I think my original 2 JG's (E1 and E2) and 2 HZ's (E1 and E2) is what's happening, because 1) E1 HZ is on Earth 1 minding his own business. 2) Earth 1 JG is unaccounted for. We only have E2 JG's word that E1 JG doesn't exist. 3) Zoom is Hunter Zolomon, based on the promo and 4) Man in the Mask is unaccounted for so it makes since that he's E1 JG.

I think Zoom took E1 JG thinking he had powers he could steal, but none existed, so he went after The Flash. I still haven't figured out E2 JG's connection to Zoom yet - maybe he was working with Team Flash to try to save E1 JG (MiTM?)? Or maybe he needed a cure?

That's where it gets fuzzy.

Edited April 8, 2016 by phoenics

[Maverick]

 They established that Team Flash searched E-1 records for Jay Garrick and came up empty.  If there are two of him native to E-1, then he goes by a name other than Jay.   I like the Jay split into two beings theory.  

[Trini]

Episode 2.19:

WELLS IS ATTACKED BY DC COMICS' CHARACTER GRIFFIN GREY

- A meta-human with super strength named Griffin Grey (guest star Haig Sutherland) mistakes Harry (Tom Cavanagh) for Earth-1 Harrison Wells and kidnaps him, demanding that Wells cure him from his current condition. Realizing another brilliant Wells could help track Griffin's location, Barry asks Jesse (guest star Violett Beane) to help. Meanwhile, Wally (Keiynan Lonsdale) corners Joe (Jesse L. Martin) about The Flash.

 

John Showalter directed the episode written by Brooke Roberts & Katherine Walczak (#219). Original airdate 4/26/2016.

[Trini]

More photos of "Versus Zoom" released; looks like Wally finds out about Barry, and maybe Zoom escapes when the team rescues Wally?

[zannej]

Awesome! Thanks, Trini!

[netlyon2]

They established that Team Flash searched E-1 records for Jay Garrick and came up empty. If there are two of him native to E-1, then he goes by a name other than Jay. I like the Jay split into two beings theory.

AFAIK, the only one who made that claim was Jay when he was explaining to Caitlin why he hadn't looked up E-1 Jay already (unless Caitlin said that she looked too; I must admit that I tend to tune out during her scenes). I think that if the theory of E-1 Jay being a con man (and the Jay that's been with Team Flash all season) pans out, then it's likely that he erased records of himself, either as a general con-man tactic or specifically to reinforce the story that Hunter Zolomon is the only E-1 version of Jay. You know, just in case Team Flash decided to check (which of course they didn't). Edited April 11, 2016 by netlyon2

[phoenics]

More photos of "Versus Zoom" released; looks like Wally finds out about Barry, and maybe Zoom escapes when the team rescues Wally?

I thought I saw on Twitter that GG said that the shot of him with his mask off wasn't an actual episode still... it was a cut scene? He doesn't even have his gloves on in that shot.

So I dunno if Wally finds out or not.

[Trini]

Ah, okay. I saw the tweet you're talking about. So he doesn't find out... yet.

[CabotCove]

Is someone dying in The Flash Season 2 finale

 

The-flashseason-2-finale-cw-show-spotted-filming-at-a-cemetery

[phoenics]

I'm worried for Joe and/or Henry.

[SevenStars]

I'm worried for Joe and/or Henry.

I think Henry is most likely to die. And despite my problem with the writing for Joe in regard to Iris, I don't want him dead. I just want better writing.

[Trini]

Arrggh.

Not worried about Joe, but I'd hate to lose Henry since he's Barry's only living family. Also, we barely got to even see him this season. If they don't really have a use for Henry (which is ridiculous, but anyway), I'd rather he be off in another city than dead.

 

It's also possible to it's a visit to the grave of someone already dead (Nora, Eddie, Ronnie, Iris' mother?) -- trying to think positive. I don't want this to be like Arrow, where they think it's necessary to kill someone each season.

[phoenics]

I'm worried that it's Joe.  The scenes with Zoom and Wally makes me think Zoom is making this very personal to Barry and the Wests.

[bettername2come]

Let's face it, this is a superhero show and Barry has two parental figures. One of them is likely to go. Plus, Joe died in Earth-2, so I think that increases the odds it's him.

I want Joe alive.

[Trini]

Heh. I think Joe being already dead on Earth-2 increases his odds of surviving on Earth-1. I mean, would they kill him twice in one season? Plus, with all the bending over backwards to keep Tom Cavanugh on the show, I don't think they'd let Martin go so soon.

[Trini]

...

Edited April 12, 2016 by Trini

[phoenics]

If we start seeing a flurry of Joe scenes where they are especially poignant, look out.

[Trini]

TVLine:

Any teases on the identity of The Flash’s Man In the Iron Mask? –Arlena

 

When asked about the masked man in Zoom’s crib, Teddy Sears assured me, “We do see him” during this season’s final stretch, “but I didn’t know who he was until [filming] the finale. Some of the actors will tell you, ‘We had ideas about who it is,’ but if they did, they knew a lot more than me! But [his identity] will be revealed, and I think it will be very satisfying to viewers.”

Edited April 12, 2016 by Trini

[Ruby25]

I still think it's the real Jay Garrick. They can't have his identity stolen this entire season without showing us the real guy. Plus the WWII code is kind of a hint.

[phoenics]

Okay - just saw TS's interview with EW and he basically has confused me.  Apparently the Jay who was with Caitlin and on E1 all this time WAS Zoom aka Hunter Z.  Then who was the Jay who got impaled by Zoom?  We saw Zoom carrying him back on E2, plus the MiTM was there too, so that's THREE people.  Plus Hunter Z on E1 (of course we don't know if that's his name or not)... ugh.  

 

Can Zoom split off weird random clones of himself?

 

My head hurts.

 

So - I'm counting Jays/HZs/bodies and there is:

1)  Hunter Z as pointed out by fake!Jay/Zoom/HZ to Caitlin on E1 (we don't know if this is really E1 HZ or if it's E1 Jay)

2)  Fake!Jay/whom Teddy Sears says is Zoom who fell for Caitlin (?)

3)  MiTM <-- I think this is the real Jay Garrick from E2

4)  Zoom who impaled Fake!Jay/Zoom/HZ in front of the breach on E1, and then carried his body back into E2

 

So maybe Zoom replaced himself toward the end with Fake!Jay and that's who he impaled?  

 

I feel like they've mashed up Cobalt Blue and Hunter Zolomon's backstory... Cobalt Blue was Barry's long lost evil twin.  I wonder if what they've done is made Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon long lost twins, where HZ is evil and sociopathic on E2.  So the MiTM is E2 real Jay Garrick, and HZ steals his identity, locks him up and then eventually just takes over and becomes Zoom?

 

So who is the guy who got impaled by Zoom?  E1 Jay Garrick?  A guinea pig for E2 HZ/Zoom?

 

Aargh!

 

They're totally gonna use a MacGuffin to resolve this stupid storyline - just like they did with Wells/Thawne and that body switcheroo gizmo.

[Trini]

Yeah, too many Jays!

 

...They're totally gonna use a MacGuffin to resolve this stupid storyline - just like they did with Wells/Thawne and that body switcheroo gizmo.

And that barely worked last time. This whole thing with Zoom/Jay Garrick is probably not going to be satisfying. Next season they need to just be straightforward with the villain.

[zannej]

Maybe Hunter fell for Caitlin and then recruited con-man Jay (or the Earth-1 Hunter) to help him out with the promise of something in return & the one that died was the Earth1 version who only sat in briefly? Like, maybe the version who had his DNA tested and was sick was Zoom and the one who tested and had his DNA ok was the con man?

[phoenics]

Maybe Hunter fell for Caitlin and then recruited con-man Jay (or the Earth-1 Hunter) to help him out with the promise of something in return & the one that died was the Earth1 version who only sat in briefly? Like, maybe the version who had his DNA tested and was sick was Zoom and the one who tested and had his DNA ok was the con man?

 

So basically the Jay that got impaled by Zoom was only there a brief time to throw them off the scent?  And he was from E1?

 

That could be it...

[zannej]

So basically the Jay that got impaled by Zoom was only there a brief time to throw them off the scent?  And he was from E1?

 

That could be it...

Yup. And he could either have been a con man on Earth1 that had his records erased by Zoom-- making him Jay. Or he could have been E1 Hunter. Because maybe there is no real Jay Garrick. I was going with twins as a theory, but I'm now suspecting that Zoom pretended to be Jay Garrick on Earth2 to give people hope and later rip it away from him and that maybe the man in the iron mask is either his father or one of the Thawnes (Eddie or Eobard). I suspect one of Hunter's parents was murdered when he was a child and instead of turning out as a good guy, he turned into a murderer.

Hopefully when they reveal whatever it is, it will make sense.

[bettername2come]

I think at least some of the time Jay that dated Caitlin was Zoom. Hence letting Killer Frost live. He likes her (ew). I think Jay just being absent taking a nap during the E-2 ep suggests Zoom is the Jay we've seen.

And now I want both Caitlins to team up and kick his ass.

[zannej]

I agree. I do think that Zoom was spying on the team to learn what they were doing and that he knew they were coming to Earth2 and made it look like he was going after Wells to terrorize him and then allowed them to "rescue" Jesse and escape.

 

I wonder if doppelganger Jay who died was supposed to wait to close the portal or if Zoom was supposed to make it through before it closed.

[Trini]

Episode 2.20, directed by SFX supervisor Armen Kevorkian:

Tuesday, May 03, 2016

"Rupture"

DC COMICS' CHARACTER RUPTURE COMES TO CENTRAL CITY WITH ZOOM -

 

Zoom (guest star Teddy Sears) arrives back on Earth-1 intent on taking over Central City. Barry and Wells come up with a plan to stop Zoom once and for all but it's extremely dangerous. Unsure if he should take the risk, Barry reaches out to both fathers for advice. Henry (guest star John Wesley Shipps) is adamantly opposed to Barry risking his life again but Joe thinks he can handle it which puts the two men at odds with each other. Meanwhile, Cisco is shocked when he vibes the Earth-2 villain Rupture, who happens to be his brother Dante's (guest star Nicholas Gonzalez) doppelganger. Rupture came to this Earth seeking justice for Reverb's death. Iris decides she's finally ready to open up to Barry about her feelings for him.

 

Armen V. Kevorkian directed the episode written by Kai Yu Wu & Lauren Certo.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Trini

[Trini]

Iris decides she's finally ready to open up to Barry about her feelings for him.

 

Nice try, CW. You're not going to get my hopes up with one sentence.  But dare I hope for a Henry/Iris scene? I'm not sure if they've ever talked to each other.

 

If even Dante can have an evil doppelganger, I want to see Mayor Snart!

Edited April 15, 2016 by Trini

[Ruby25]

So if that's happening I guess these next two episodes really have to show that she IS in love with him.

 

It's kinda bizarre to me that this show doesn't realize they can tease something for longer than two episodes before it happens. I've been watching TV my whole life, the way this kind of thing usually works is to build up to it over the course of an entire season, not just drop it out of nowhere and then bring it back up only when something is right about to happen.

 

If I was in that writers room (and I'm convinced I should be, lol, at least for this stuff) I would have advised showing a scene every once in a while from the beginning of the season, that made it clear that Iris still has a thing for Barry and vice versa, no matter who else they might have been dating or grieving for at the time. If we saw on a consistent basis that there is and always will be this underlying romantic tension between the two of them, even if they're not doing anything about it yet, this would all make perfect sense.

 

It's really not that hard. It's "will they/won't they" 101. Dropping it cold, acting as if the characters themselves had completely forgotten the events of last season made no sense and needlessly confused people.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Ruby25

[zannej]

It will be interesting to see if Rupture knows that Zoom killed his brother and how he will react to seeing Earth1 Cisco.

[rogueprinzess]

Nice try, CW. You're not going to get my hopes up with one sentence.  But dare I hope for a Henry/Iris scene? I'm not sure if they've ever talked to each other.

 

If even Dante can have an evil doppelganger, I want to see Mayor Snart!

 

LOL, I thought the exact same thing. This sentence means nothing with the crap they've pulled in the past. Even if she does have a confession, I don't have confidence that it won't end up getting erased via time travel again. I'll stay over here with my cautious pessimism. 

[Trini]

It just says she decides; it might not even happen in that episode. Staying chill. :)

 

----

EW Spoiler Room:

Tension is high as the speedsters head toward the ultimate showdown by season’s end. “Things are about to get a lot more personal between the two of them,” executive producer Andrew Kreisberg teases. “Barry is still reeling from the sting of betrayal of Jay, but Jay has a very specific agenda. He’s proven to be a master manipulator. He did so covertly, and now he’s doing it out in the open. Barry’s going to have to make some difficult choices if he’s going to want to take Jay down.”

 

UGH. Is it Jay or Zolomon?? This is the the trouble with figuring out your big "twist" halfway through the season: all the writing contortions and retcons to make things make sense (which they probably won't).

Edited April 15, 2016 by Trini

[zannej]

I really hope this show doesn't do what they did on the show Ed where it started out with Ed totally pining for Carol and doing everything he could to sabotage her relationships and doing all these crazy things to try to win her heart. But then when he starts seeing someone seriously and has moved on from her, they had Carol suddenly realizing that she wanted Ed all along so she starts trying to sabotage his relationship and at first Ed resists, but in the end he chooses her over Frankie (and I thought Frankie was a much better match and a cooler character in general).

 

Mind you, I don't think Iris will try to sabotage Barry's relationships-- and it doesn't seem like she was even remotely jealous. For me, the thing that bugged me was that the 180 just seemed to come out of nowhere and I don't want to have them show Iris suddenly change her mind. I want to see some sort of build to it where we can see it coming. But I also don't want it to drag on.

[phoenics]

The problem is - I think they THINK they are building to it right now with the little looks Iris is giving, but the camera doesn't FOCUS on her face enough when it happens so you aren't sure if it's that or something else. It's the direction (as in camera work, not acting) that seems to be the issue - and maybe there just aren't enough BEATS being added in the script for the audience to "get" that Iris' feelings are changing.

Personally, I think she's been different since before E2. When she was worried Barry was going to E2 to face Zoom because he felt he didn't have anything to live for - she seemed to want to tell him that he had HER - but Barry of course thought she was talking about Patty. But again - I could be off base and that would be nothing. The writing leaves it ambiguous.

Then when they had the discussions about Eddie - I think Iris' real reason for not feeling like Scott is "right" for her is because he's not BARRY. But again - they left this vague and ambiguous.

And finally - the scene in the club. Iris was clearly deflated every time Barry clearly deflected their reality on E1 from what E2 Westallen was doing... he was quantifying every comment she made to make sure he wasn't suggesting anything about them being together - which is nuts, when IRIS brought it up and even suggested there was a possibility that they'd get married at all in the future. But Barry was oblivious as always.

My guess is that it's going to be SCOTT who tells Iris that she's in love with Barry... Iris will try to deny it, but eventually come to that realization herself. I WISH the show would let her come to that on her own without another man telling her, but ... I guess this parallels last season when it was Linda telling her that she had feelings for Barry.

Of course, the writers could surprise me and show Iris realizing the reason she felt like it wasn't right with Scott had nothing to do with him not being Eddie - but everything to do with him not being BARRY... feels like a pipe dream though...

[Trini]

According to the interview with Teddy Sears I just linked in the Media thread, he knew he would be playing Jay and Zoom from the start. On the other hand it seems they didn't actually start writing it that way until recent episodes. In any case, I have major doubts that any of this is going to make sense.

 

My spec at the moment: There are 4 "Jays":

(1) Zoom = Hunter Zolomon - E-2

(2) Man in Iron Mask = Jay Garrick - E-2

(3) Hunter Zolomon - E-1

(4) Jay Garrick E-1 who has been an imposter this whole time??

The last one is the one I find really implausible. Is Zoom mind controlling him? Is he an actor? How would he know anything about being the Flash and the Velocity drug?? Why would he work with Zoom if that's what happened?

 

I want some solid answers! Not holding my breath, because MiIM doesn't get revealed until the finale, it seems.

 

They better not do "This Guy is Actually Another Guy" in next season's arc.

 

[Edited because one should not type angry!]

Edited April 17, 2016 by Trini

[Ruby25]

I agree with your theory for the most part.

 

I also think MiTM has to be the real Jay Garrick, just because they have to tell us what happened to the real guy, considering he's such a major character that people were wanting to see. And the WWII POW code was an obvious hint too.

 

But I don't understand how Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon are twins...I guess they're going to say they were separated as kids or something? That's probably it. Teddy was saying that the Zoom origin story mirrors Barry Allen's, so something bad happened to him as a kid. Then he and twin brother Jay were raised by different people, maybe?

 

But this couldn't have happened on both earths. So, HZ must have imprisoned his twin brother Jay and gotten Jay's doppelganger under his control somehow.

 

I can sort of reason this out by going step by step, but it is very confusing and I seriously wonder if the writers are going to get into all this detail. They have to if they want it to make sense, but I don't know if they will bother.

[phoenics]

Ruby25 - look up the Cobalt Blue canon storyline... that's where the twin stuff (I think) is being drafted from.

I had a thought today that the Jay we sometimes saw with Caitlin was E2 Jay Garrick (the real one).

I think the MiTM is actually E1 Jay Garrick.

Remember when Jay told Caitlin that he tried to find the Jay Garrick of E1? I think he was lying. He did find him - that's what he did in the 6 months he was on E1 looking for "Flash" before he found Barry and the gang at Star Labs. He wouldn't know immediately that Barry Allen was the Flash... because on his Earth, HE's the Flash. So it makes sense that he was probably looking for Jay Garrick on E1. Then he found him, but he didn't have powers, because BARRY ALLEN is the Flash on E1.

So I think the MiTM is actually E1 Jay Garrick. E1 Hunter Z is still on E1, unharmed.

Impaled by Zoom Jay is Jay Garrick from E2. Zoom is Hunter Zolomon from E2.

The only thing I haven't figured out is whether Zoom/Jay were working together or not? And how?

Edited April 18, 2016 by phoenics

[zannej]

So, I'm thinking there are either the twins and there is a separate Jay and Hunter OR, Jay Garrick is a name Hunter took from someone older and he created that facade and masqueraded as the Flash to give people hope so they would be more crushed when he yanked the rug from under their feet.

 

And maybe that is why they couldn't find E1 Jay Garrick. Either he's too old or already dead. And maybe the man in the mask is either Jay (who is older) or someone entirely different.

 

And maybe Hunter got his E1 counterpart to help him by filling in for him at times-- just feeding him enough info to be convincing and to screw with Caitlin's tests. Unless there are clones involved. I think it was the E1 version who died.

 

I also think that the speed canon was never actually broken, but Zoom/Hunter faked it. But I guess something went wrong when it did close and the E1 version or clone died. Claiming it broke would be a way to get the others out of his hair so he could go to E2 and scare people and then return to play hero and then go back to E2 again.

[Trini]

So now I guess we know what the title for 2.19 refers to; photos for "Back to Normal".

[phoenics]

Wow - a time remnant... not at all where I thought they were going. Sheesh.

So - the MiTM is truly a mystery now - unless it's the real Jay Garrick. Did HZ make him up then?

More confused than ever.

Maybe it is Eddie or Ronnie. I have no clue now who that is.

[Jenesis]

Wow - a time remnant... not at all where I thought they were going. Sheesh.

So - the MiTM is truly a mystery now - unless it's the real Jay Garrick. Did HZ make him up then?

More confused than ever.

Maybe it is Eddie or Ronnie. I have no clue now who that is.

 

I still believe MiTM is Wally. They had a little face to iron-face moment last episode. Now the question is, which Wally was returned to Team Flash?

[phoenics]

I still believe MiTM is Wally. They had a little face to iron-face moment last episode. Now the question is, which Wally was returned to Team Flash?

Mind. Blown.

[Trini]

If past or future versions of people (in addition to Earth-1 or Earth-2 versions) are in play, it could really be anybody. But now I'm ruling out any Jay/Hunter clones.
 
----------
Ask Ausiello:

Question: Anything on The Flash? —CeCe
Ausiello: If you suspect that kidnapped Caitlin will angle to be Beauty to Zoom’s Beast and chip away at his defenses while in captivity… you’d be wrong. “No, that doesn’t happen, which is actually kind of refreshing,” Teddy Sears shares. That said, “We eventually ‘pierce the armor’ and see why he’s taken her,” though his exact agenda for his ex “won’t be immediately clear.” Caitlin, though, would be wise to worry. After all, her captor “is ‘off,’ he’s broken, he is not a linear, level-headed guy,” Sears observes, “and he eventually makes a decision which gets us to where we go next.”

[Ruby25]

So, Greg Berlanti tweeted today that they would never make Jay Garrick evil, that they love him and there is no reinvention, and for people to keep watching.

 

I'd say that all but confirms real Jay Garrick is the man in the mask.

 

The question is who plays him. Not Teddy, I'm guessing. Or is it? Why would he look exactly like Hunter Zolomon? But if real Jay Garrick is the original Flash, then how would Hunter be able to take over the identity of a public figure unless he looks like him? I guess it has to be Teddy, and there's some explanation for him having a twin.

[phoenics]

Well I'm just confused then.

Although I'd worry that Zoom is going to turn Caitlin into KF.