S02.E11: The Akeda

[johntfs]

For those asking , placing "Struggle" in front of any noun denotes a failure to be whatever that noun represents. For example a plate of gross looking food on Thanksgiving would be a Struggle Plate. A bad wig would be a Struggle Wig. Katrina being the very definition of a failure as a witch would be a Struggle Witch.

 

The only thing worse than Katrina being a "struggle witch" would be Katrina being a non-struggle witch.  If Katrina has the full, unhindered use of her abilities, why exactly do we need Ichabod and Abbie?  Figure every episode will be Katrina magically identifying whatever demon of the week there is, at which point she sends Ichabod and Abbie to gather whatever she needs.  There'll be a little combat as they distract the whatsits until Katrina magically nukes the thing.  Repeat 'til the season finale.

 

I like the show pretty well as is.  I don't really want it to turn into Katrina the Super-Witch, so I'm cool if she keeps struggling.

[lisaloopner]

I agree that the disparity between what we're told about Katrina's powers and abilities and what we're shown of them is a big problem. They really need to just start saying nothing more than "She's a witch" and leave it at that.

[DeLurker]

RiddleyWalker - I'm only watching the show with you from now on. I'll bring the tequila because I only drink Los Azulejos.

[Rhetorica]

Just saw the episode. My initial thoughts: The men were on fire tonight. Frank fighting War and dying, Ichabod telling off Katrina then holding Abbie. Henry 's inner torture.  I'll give an episode to allow the men to shine, we woman are still the key players.

THEN... The last ten minutes. WTF?!?! Icabod sacrifices everything cause, ya know family. Henry saves the day cause twu wuv wins every time! Just WTF?!?!

[mustbekarma]

In my opinion, this show has not changed from its original premise. Ichabod Crane and Abigail Mills are the Two Witnesses, destined to fight the forces of evil and avert the apocalypse. Moloch being defeated in battle, and probably just one battle, does not mean the end of the apocalypse. Henry killed Moloch because Moloch betrayed him, not because Henry suddenly loved mommy and daddy and just had to save them. I'm thinking I saw a little glimmer of respect, or maybe realization, for Ichabod when he was willing to sacrifice himself for Katrina. He even mentioned in his speech about what a bad father Moloch was. Just because Moloch was defeated doesn't mean he won't be back. If only his physical body was killed on Earth, his soul could still be sent back to Purgatory.

 

As others have mentioned, even the Captain could show back up. Henry wouldn't waste a useful tool like him. Besides, while at the asylum, Irving had a vision of fighting a war . I'm willing to bet a shiny nickel that it's foreshadowing his role as the new Horseman of War, and Henry will take over Moloch's role as the architect of the apocalypse. I think this episode could be proving the framework for the scenario.

 

I really expected to dislike this episode, and hell, even this show because I hate avert the apocalypse stories. I just enjoy it here. Ichabod and Abbie bonding over motorcycles, with family drama, cool monsters and villains, and some triumphing over evil, albeit temporarily, is really tickling my fancy.

 

And I still like Katrina. She didn't want to kill her own son, which I understand. She's feeling a little Stockholm Syndrome for Abraham, which I also understand. She fought against the bad guys, saving Abby, which puts her on my Christmas card list. Katrina tried to save Irving, but her magic did not trump the Sword of Methuselah's mojo. Plus, Ichabod loves Katrina, so I'm inclined to be charitable towards her for his sake, too.

 

I enjoyed the hell out of this episode.

Edited December 3, 2014 by mustbekarma

[johntfs]

Just saw the episode. My initial thoughts: The men were on fire tonight. Frank fighting War and dying, Ichabod telling off Katrina then holding Abbie. Henry 's inner torture.  I'll give an episode to allow the men to shine, we woman are still the key players.

THEN... The last ten minutes. WTF?!?! Icabod sacrifices everything cause, ya know family. Henry saves the day cause twu wuv wins every time! Just WTF?!?!

 

The last ten minutes see the men continue to shine.  Headless Abraham is willing to sacrifice the one he loves for Moloch.  Ichabod is ultimately not willing to murder his son for his cause.  Moloch is fine with sending Henry to his doom.  If some Horsemen fall he'll just make others.  Ichabod is willing to take up the sword and destroy Moloch and himself for the chance to save Henry and the others.  Moloch is fine with breaking promises to Abraham and Henry since they're merely replaceable tools.  Faced with such a stark revelation of his fathers' true characters, Henry spares Ichabod and destroys Moloch.

 

 

Katrina tried to save Irving, but her magic did not trump the Sword of Methuselah's mojo.

 

It's more that her magic didn't trump Moloch's mojo.  Irving was shown destroying multiple lesser demons before he faced the War Armor.  It was the wound he took from the War Armor that killed him, not the Sword of Methuselah.

Edited December 3, 2014 by johntfs

[theatremouse]

Here's another problem I have with that fight: How did the Cranes know that killing the robo-armor wouldn't also kill their precious baby? Henry and that armor were linked. Henry seemed to feel pain when the armor was being chopped up.

Yeah, I was actually expecting him to die when they killed his armor-thing. Was surprised he wasn't. But you know, more anticlimax, so I guess I wasn't surprised at all.

 

I would like one of Ichabod's giant leaps of assumption just once to turn out completely wrong and they're all stunned.

[Happytobehere]

Ha! This made me laugh. Someone introduced this:  #KatrinaRuinedSleepyHollow

 

And #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter still going strong.

Love everything about this

Well, I see what you are saying but I didn't see it like that. When trees burn, they turn black. It's just what they do. Also, putting Katrina against the lone unburned tree was just an echo to burning witches at the stake, and for Henry to look like he was going to kill his mother. I didn't see any racial tone deafness here. It's like saying well, Irving was killed at night - how appropriate cause he's black. No, the sun went down, therefore the sky becomes black. It's just the way it is.

 

I will question why Moloch in season 1 in Purgatory is white, yet in season 2, is a dark skinned demon. That is strange and tone deaf.

Just like the strange manifestation of Moloch as black when he is supposed to be the ultimate evil, despite his prior chalk-whiteness, in the light of the deliberate negation and marginalization of the PoC in the cast in favor of the most specialist snowflake who ever snowflaked, i highly doubt that even the seemingly inoucuous truly is. That is how bad things have gotten on this show.

[Rhetorica]

The last ten minutes see the men continue to shine. Headless Abraham is willing to sacrifice the one he loves for Moloch. Ichabod is ultimately not willing to murder his son for his cause. Moloch is fine with sending Henry to his doom. If some Horsemen fall he'll just make others. Ichabod is willing to take up the sword and destroy Moloch and himself for the chance to save Henry and the others. Moloch is fine with breaking promises to Abraham and Henry since they're merely replaceable tools. Faced with such a stark revelation of his fathers' true characters, Henry spares Ichabod and destroys Moloch.

Yep, that's why I said (sarcastically) true love wins every time. But it doesn't. And it shouldn't be used as Deus ex machina for every character just because the show has been written into a corner. I'm not giving up on the show yet but I hoped for better after season one.

[lucindabelle]

I loved this show so much last season I raced home to watch it (Monday's a longish day at the paper). Wore my headless sweatshirt (which they sent because I did some recapping for Another Site) with pride.

 

This season it was slow, nonsensical, lost its charm. How???

 

I still don't get WHY Abraham and Jeremy want to be "evil" in the first place. usually people who are evil rationalize that they are good. I mean, even Nazis thought they were good. yet Abraham talks openly about "evil" on his side. Huh??? Someone explain that to me. What kind of world do they think there is going to be under Moloch? I don't get it and without that mtoivation the whole thing kinda falls apart.

[nurse1]

Just finished this episode while drinking rum&coke (more rum then coke) and I liked some of it and hated the rest.

Irving was so badass and I hope to see him again (with John Cho)..maybe if he had more scenes this season his death would have more impact! But Abbie's reaction kicked his death up to an emotional level especially with Crane holding her back!

Abbie and Crane had lots of chemistry in this episode, more then all the episodes this season.  I honestly believe that they are the endgame 

Katrina and Abraham also had chemistry...WTF..but my eyes wouldn't stop rolling when ever she #1 was speaking #2 trying to have emotion (she's terrible)

Jenny is so awesome in the little scenes that she was in. I LOVE HER

John Noble was also good in his scenes....but that ending really sucked ALOT!!!

So, don't know if I will continue watching when the show returns...it has really lost its way and I'm not sure if if can ever return to the kickass, fun, bananas ride it was in season 1

[Tony]

Did I miss the part where the sword grants Irving superior sword skills, because while he was fighting Abraham, I just couldn't get over how a police captain who's probably never held a sword before and up until now has been shackled to a bed at a mental institution, could hold his own in a sword fight. I was expecting him to be killed 3 seconds into the duel.

[Tippi Blevins]

Dang. This means the Horsemen have taken out two of Abbie's bosses now. Headless got Corbin, and Robo-Armor got Irving. Reyes better keep an eye out.

[Yolapukka]

 

Reyes better keep an eye out.

 

 

I'm kind of hoping she doesn't. So far I don't have much use for her. 

[cynic]

Dang. This means the Horsemen have taken out two of Abbie's bosses now. Headless got Corbin, and Robo-Armor got Irving. Reyes better keep an eye out.

Maybe it will become a running theme, like the probation officers on Misfits.

[caprice]

Maybe it will become a running theme, like the probation officers on Misfits.

Or Spinal Tap drummers....

[archiesmom]

The most upsetting part of this episode for me was sidelining Abbie during Irvings death. That should've been Abbie. He was Abbie's mentor and friend. Yet again, they had Katrina shoe-horned into a scene where she didn't belong. They couldn't even make her half assed attempt at a spell seem legit. I have no idea why they allowed a character who didn't even know Frank mourn over his dying body. 

 

Small nitpicks: How was Katrina able to yell so clearly with a gag in her mouth? What was she whispering to Abrahams chains? Why did they give her a katana only to have her not use it? Who braided her hair and when?

 

I don't think Henry's redeemed even a little bit. I hope it blows up in the Crane's faces badly.

Also hoping Katrina's little game she's playing with headless blows up in her face. I don't believe for a second she really cares for him. This might be where her "powerful operative" will come into play but I don't think headless will be as forgiving as Ichabod.

[fantique]

 I don't know if that was the result of direction or NB's acting choice, but it was much too muted and understated to have much emotional impact.  

I think it might have felt underwhelming because they, well, muted all the sounds during her reaction. I think it was meant to show huge impact but I guess I could understand why it might lessen the effect for some people. I liked NB's reaction and liked that the body language was as pronounced if not more so than the face.

 

Yet only Ichabod is being condemned here for Frank's death.

This confused me. I don't think people are saying Irving dying is Crane's fault. I think people were annoyed that Irving sacrificed himself and Crane couldn't deliver the final blow. I'm with you that I don't get why people act as if Abbie was way closer to Irving than Crane.  

 

Which brings me to my big confusion.  So how is it that Abraham is the Horseman of Death and could be killed.  If Frank had killed Death both Abraham and Death would be dead.  But killing The Horseman of War does nothing to Henry?  Frank's death is even worse then because it is utterly pointless, since all he did was kill a Thing we never actually saw do anything.   Henry was the one doing all these awful things in Sleepy Hollow, not this fiery sword guy on a horse.  So in end all Frank did was kill an Avatar?

That thing was basically a remote controlled puppet that was linked to Henry via his soul. Henry is the Horseman, not the puppet.

 

From Revelation 11: 5-6 about the Two Witnesses:

(snip) 

This is how the season should have ended, Revelation 11: 7-8:

(snip)

And they could have started the next chapter with Abbie and Crane resurrected after three and a half days like it says in Scripture.

That would have been epic.

 

The Cranes should not have been present for Irving’s death and that’s what pisses me off.  If anyone should have been there holding his hand while he passed it should have been people who actually care for him, like the Mills sisters.

I found it completely legitimate to have Crane there but I also feel that the other person should have been Jenny.

 

If you look at #SleepyHollow while the show is airing it's definitely not a Katrina love-fest. I love the snark.

My internet settings are France (that's where I'm from) and even over there they are not impressed. Which is hilarious.

 

I like the show pretty well as is.  I don't really want it to turn into Katrina the Super-Witch, so I'm cool if she keeps struggling.

I don't think the problem is that she's not powerful.. The problem is that the show keeps insisting she is. THAT's the problem.

 

RiddleyWalker - I'm only watching the show with you from now on. I'll bring the tequila because I only drink Los Azulejos.

Make this a party of 3. Your humour is what's helping me not roll my eyes into oblivion.

 

In my opinion, this show has not changed from its original premise. Ichabod Crane and Abigail Mills are the Two Witnesses, destined to fight the forces of evil and avert the apocalypse.

The premise of the show is not the problem. The execution is.

Edited December 3, 2014 by fantique

[chrisvee]

So apparently Katrina's epic journey to fully realize her power is still ahead of us.

Joy.

[Snookums]

After Frank's fight with Henry's War-vatar, I had to fight tears, calm my Chihuahua mixes after yelling at the TV, and I kind of had no patience for my favorite time-displaced history professor-cum-spy-cum-Witness.

 

 

I have the most wonderful mental picture of you now. :)

 

Siggghhhh....what to say? People have pretty much covered it. I can't believe Katia Winter has any more patience with the stupidity of her character than anybody else does--having to play a supposed powerful witch spy whatever while consistently slipping on banana peels and whispering your lines while making sure your husband Ichabod "Master Emperor of Terrible Timing" Crane hears enough to get jelly must blow. Not as much as being the star/costars and being totally sidelined for this bullshit, but close. 

 

[Amethyst]

Did I miss the part where the sword grants Irving superior sword skills, because while he was fighting Abraham, I just couldn't get over how a police captain who's probably never held a sword before and up until now has been shackled to a bed at a mental institution, could hold his own in a sword fight. I was expecting him to be killed 3 seconds into the duel.

 

Irving said the sword was "doing the work for him", so I figured that's how he was able to wield it expertly.  

[phoenics]

The most upsetting part of this episode for me was sidelining Abbie during Irvings death. That should've been Abbie. He was Abbie's mentor and friend. Yet again, they had Katrina shoe-horned into a scene where she didn't belong. They couldn't even make her half assed attempt at a spell seem legit. I have no idea why they allowed a character who didn't even know Frank mourn over his dying body.

Yeah - this really, really bothered me. Especially since the show went the whole "black guy dies first" trope. Caroline doesn't count as she wasn't a regular cast member. Watching Irving looking up at Ichabod and Katrina I couldn't help but wonder what Orlando Jones was thinking.

Why did they give her a katana only to have her not use it?

So Hawley could fall to his feet to worship her in that revolting scene. There is NO other reason for it - it literally served ONLY to have another man on the show admiring Ichabod's wife - so that we would understand the glory and majesty that is Katrina Crane.

It's insulting and so utterly transparent I cannot take it anymore. The writing literally is serving as a vehicle to elevate Katrina as lead and I'm so angry I fell for the bait and switch.

[phoenics]

This confused me. I don't think people are saying Irving dying is Crane's fault. I think people were annoyed that Irving sacrificed himself and Crane couldn't deliver the final blow. I'm with you that I don't get why people act as if Abbie was way closer to Irving than Crane.

She was a cop and so was he? Crane worked with him only on Apocalyptic stuff - but Abbie clearly had a closer relationship with him. Even though he only showed up after Corbin died I think it's safe to say that he and Abbie had other cases besides ONLY the Apocalypse ones. Plus, they were both cops...

I found it completely legitimate to have Crane there but I also feel that the other person should have been Jenny.

Agreed.

The premise of the show is not the problem. The execution is.

Well, I think that the fact that the premise of the show as illustrated in the pilot is now gone, replaced with something else is very much the problem. It's a very, very ugly and sadly predictable bait and switch that all of us have seen before.

[cynic]

...

So Hawley could fall to his feet to worship her in that revolting scene. There is NO other reason for it - it literally served ONLY to have another man on the show admiring Ichabod's wife - so that we would understand the glory and majesty that is Katrina Crane.

It's insulting and so utterly transparent I cannot take it anymore. The writing literally is serving as a vehicle to elevate Katrina as lead and I'm so angry I fell for the bait and switch.

This so much. I couldn't believe that moment. Even in the middle of the apocalypse, Goffman has to stop the action to make sure yet another male character genuflects at that altar of perfect womanhood, Katrina Crane. And honestly, she's not all that! I think Nicole and Lindsay are just as pretty as Katia in real life and way prettier in the show due to the ghastly, five-head exposing, complexion destroying wig Katrina wears. And anyway, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's unrealistic that every single guy is going to find her the hottest thing ever. Just once, I'd like to see a guy meet Katrina and be all, "eh, she's a'ight".

Speaking of Hawley, I thought he was kinda weird in this episode. Not only was there that inappropriate comment to Crane talking about Katrina as if she was a piece of meat he just bought right in front of her, there was also that bizarre first scene where he was all bro'd up, "I didn't know you guys like to party!!". WTF? When did Hawley join a frat? Yeah, Hawley may not be the most serious guy ever, but this was the first time I've ever found him cringingly dumb. Ugh. And I'm someone that even likes him!

Edited December 3, 2014 by cynic

[starchild215]

Is it wrong that the collapse of the Cranes' marriage made me whoop with joy?

 

Not at all. What disappointed me about this episode is that there were parts of it that were really good. The motorcycle of course. Crane holding Abbie back where you got to see the chemistry between the two actors/characters that drew fans and viewers to the show and hoped, well I did, that Katrina would get offed or sent back to Purgatory to bore the souls trapped there.

 

Someone way up thread mentioned that Nicole Beharie was sick at some point and that could explain why we saw her in short scenes that could've been filmed at any time and added.

 

I don't think Frank is dead. Remember the vision he had of himself doing some really badass things while in the psych ward? I keep telling myself that because I can't see getting rid of Orlando Jones for Katia Winter. She drags the show down and in the end that is what made this episode disappointing.  For example the scene where Crane tells her he can't with their marriage right now Mison brings it and Katia? I couldn't tell if she was going to laugh or if she was going to cry. I shouldn't have to wonder what her facial expression means in a scene like that.

 

In fact this episode was like a series of out takes that got patched together to make a Winter Finale.

Edited December 3, 2014 by starchild215

[BigEasygirl]

This so much. I couldn't believe that moment. Even in the middle of the apocalypse, Goffman has to stop the action to make sure yet another male character genuflects at that altar of perfect womanhood, Katrina Crane.

Speaking of Hawley, I thought he was kinda weird in this episode. Not only was there that inappropriate comment to Crane talking about Katrina as if she was a piece of meat he just bought right in front of her, there was also that bizarre first scene where he was all bro'd up, "I didn't know you guys like to party!!". WTF? When did Hawley join a frat? Yeah, Hawley may not be the most serious guy ever, but this was the first time I've ever found him cringingly dumb. Ugh. And I'm someone that even likes him!

 

This show is too idiotic for words now. Goffman is the immature frat boy.  Only a frat boy would write a scene in which ogling and objectifying a woman takes precedence over the freakin' apocalypse.  In his world, there's never not enough time for that.  smdh

[savinggrace]

This so much. I couldn't believe that moment. Even in the middle of the apocalypse, Goffman has to stop the action to make sure yet another male character genuflects at that altar of perfect womanhood, Katrina Crane. And honestly, she's not all that! I think Nicole and Lindsay are just as pretty as Katia in real life and way prettier in the show due to the ghastly, five-head exposing, complexion destroying wig Katrina wears. And anyway, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's unrealistic that every single guy is going to find her the hottest thing ever. Just once, I'd like to see a guy meet Katrina and be all, "eh, she's a'ight".

Speaking of Hawley, I thought he was kinda weird in this episode. Not only was there that inappropriate comment to Crane talking about Katrina as if she was a piece of meat he just bought right in front of her, there was also that bizarre first scene where he was all bro'd up, "I didn't know you guys like to party!!". WTF? When did Hawley join a frat? Yeah, Hawley may not be the most serious guy ever, but this was the first time I've ever found him cringingly dumb. Ugh. And I'm someone that even likes him!

 

Are you referring to the scene where Hawley tells Crane "Nice work"? If  so, I may have missed something but I didn't notice him ogling Katrina. I thought he was more impressed that she was a witch, From what I recall Katrina was messing around with the guns and Hawley tries to stop her when Jenny interjects "It's ok, she's a witch." It's then that Hawley looks impressed and tells Crane "Nice work." I'd have to rewatch the scene but I don't recall any ogling.

[Elsinore]

Another thing which should have gone in my dropkick column

 

That corset did not work with that particular tank top. It looked sloppy, as did the hair. It's long enough for all of it to be braided in.

 

Ahem, while we're hating ...

[phoenics]

Ratings at 1.5 (includes DVR adjustments). That's just sad.

Deliverance with adjustments was at about 2.3 - I think because folks wanted to see if the change in direction for Katrina was true. After that clearly a lot of fans dropped sleepy hollow from their DVR. And they haven't come back.

How many millions of fans did Deliverance cost us? Seemingly for good?

I don't understand why Fox hasn't stepped in yet. They need to make up with Orci and Kurtzman and fire Goffman. Akeda is just the beginning of Goffman pushing more Katrina on us.

Edited December 3, 2014 by phoenics

[caprice]

Check out Orlando Jones' interview with Variety. Doesn't take much reading between the lines to sense what's up with the showrunners.

http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/sleepy-hollow-postmortem-midseason-deaths-1201368249/

Thanks for the link. I loved getting Orlando's thoughts and grinned hugely at his mention of MadTV. I have some fond memories of that show.

[Indi]

Ratings at 1.5 (includes DVR adjustments). That's just sad.

Deliverance with adjustments was at about 2.3 - I think because folks wanted to see if the change in direction for Katrina was true. After that clearly a lot of fans dropped sleepy hollow from their DVR. And they haven't come back.

 

2.3 was the ratings for live + 3 DVR. Deliverance also got a 1.5.

 

[HalcyonDays]

I have the most wonderful mental picture of you now. :)

 

Siggghhhh....what to say? People have pretty much covered it. I can't believe Katia Winter has any more patience with the stupidity of her character than anybody else does--having to play a supposed powerful witch spy whatever while consistently slipping on banana peels and whispering your lines while making sure your husband Ichabod "Master Emperor of Terrible Timing" Crane hears enough to get jelly must blow. Not as much as being the star/costars and being totally sidelined for this bullshit, but close. 

 

Apparently she does. From a podcast two weeks ago - Neil Jackson was quoted as saying that Katia was "bored" last year and is thrilled this year with have to do more, and she loves the storylines she's been given. Because I am mean, first - boohoo at being bored - now *I* am bored with the show as a result and second, biggest eyeroll. I get you want to work, but the storylines?? I hope - for her sake - she is simply toeing the company line, because otherwise I need to *side-eye* this response majorily.

 

Yeah - this really, really bothered me. Especially since the show went the whole "black guy dies first" trope. Caroline doesn't count as she wasn't a regular cast member. Watching Irving looking up at Ichabod and Katrina I couldn't help but wonder what Orlando Jones was thinking.

 

I know - poor guy. He deserved so much better AND was a great part of the show. I guess he telegraphed is pretty well - he's been extra snarky on his twitter in the last two week, because he didn't care anymore. Good for him. I hope he comes back as some capacity, but these writers have no vision, so I doubt it. Remember the line "A dead cop, a mental patient and a Revolutionary War soldier? - "That's our team." This show isn't even close to that world anymore.

 

I don't think Frank is dead. Remember the vision he had of himself doing some really badass things while in the psych ward? I keep telling myself that because I can't see getting rid of Orlando Jones for Katia Winter. She drags the show down and in the end that is what made this episode disappointing.  For example the scene where Crane tells her he can't with their marriage right now Mison brings it and Katia? I couldn't tell if she was going to laugh or if she was going to cry. I shouldn't have to wonder what her facial expression means in a scene like that.

 

Simply because the showrunner is thrilled about Katrina and is shoe-horning into everything, thus Frank is expendable. I mean, they couldn't even devote one of two previous episodes to setting up Frank and his family, before he was offed. I think that is the worst - sidelining him for Katrina drama, then offing him in such a pointless manner.

 

Mison always seem to bring it, to be honest, but I know he adores working with Nicole Beharie and I wouldn't be surprised that he's irritated that now he has less time with her and more with Katia. Helps the angry performances, if you know what I mean.

[sinkwriter]

 

there was also that bizarre first scene where he was all bro'd up, "I didn't know you guys like to party!!". WTF?

 

It was a little weird but I assumed (fanwanked) that he was a bit drunk at that point. He sobered up quickly, though, hearing about the end stuff coming. I did like how he was all, "I've heard this 100 times and it's never really The End... Oh. Raining blood? Okay, then." LOL.

Edited December 3, 2014 by sinkwriter

[DeLurker]

Make this a party of 3. Your humour is what's helping me not roll my eyes into oblivion

Awwww...thanks!  I absolutely need this board so I am not smacking my head on the desk.  Wonder if you can pull an optic muscle that way?  Best we find out if the plan is to keep watching.

 

Re: Katrina and the corset (sounds like a bubble gum group lile Josie and the Pussycats)

And the jeggings too.  Yeah, they got to smell a bit ripe by now, but I'll give her a break - she was in purgatory for 200 years and I imagine there's a lot of eau de stink there.  And after 200 years in her colonial garb, a couple of weeks in this get up is nothing.

 

All that aside, you would think a modest Quaker Colonial woman (ha!) would feel indecent in something so snug.  And Colonial hubby would certainly say something about it, especially when she is "spying" on her ex.

 

Mison always seem to bring it, to be honest, but I know he adores working with Nicole Beharie and I wouldn't be surprised that he's irritated that now he has less time with her and more with Katia.

As an actor, I imagine working with someone who elevates the scene and with whom you have chemistry is highly valued.  I can't believe that anti-chemistry is not felt by them immediately.  Clearly, the only person Katia Winter has chemistry with is Goffman, but it certainly is working in her favor.

[HalcyonDays]

As an actor, I imagine working with someone who elevates the scene and with whom you have chemistry is highly valued.  I can't believe that anti-chemistry is not felt by them immediately.  Clearly, the only person Katia Winter has chemistry with is Goffman, but it certainly is working in her favor.

 

Definately. I think it's like with any coworkers - some you get along with  and work with really well, are in sync with and make a good team. Then there are other coworkers that you just don't mesh well with at all. It seems like the case to me here. One of them - Mison I think, not sure, could've been Beharie - was interviewed earlier this year and the questioned asked was "How does Katrina change the dynamic of the Witnesses?" And the response was basically "Yes, Katrina changes the dynamic. It's different." and that was it. Flat response. Not how it is different, no glowing words, or even trying to twist it into something positive.

 

At the time the answer really struck me because a) there is absolutely no chemistry between Mison/Winter and I think he at least knows that and b) because at the time people were really concerned with how Katrina would impact the Ichabbie dynamic. And now it is so clear how she cannot be inserted into the dynamic at all, because she really does ruin it. Jenny can, Hawley can, Frank can, hell, even Reyes can. They are not a problem. But Katrina - kills it on entrance.

 

But like with those coworkers who are slackers at their work, or are completely useless or hurt the team or whatever, as long as that coworker has the ear and admiration of the Boss - however unwarranted it is - the others will never get ahead, no matter what they do. Because the Boss is convinced they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, and no manner of proof can change their mind, even though that coworker is hurting the overall productivity and work dynamic of the department.

[Dobian]

I expect Irving will be back in some form next season, they need to resolve his soul-selling storyline.  Great that Henry turned on his master, but he's still a douche.  Now we have the inevitable Ichabod/Katrina breakup so she can get busy with the headless horseman.  So much bad soap opera is on its way.

[TwistedandBored]

You know I am still confused about how anyone besides the witnesses can kill Moloch or wield that sword? If anyone can wield it or kill Moloch then why are The Witnesses needed at all? What is soo special about Abbie and Ichabod if everyone else can do their job for them? What separates them from Katrina, Irving, or Jenny? 

[FormerMod-a1]

I don't think killing Moloch (assuming he's really dead and not just gone from our world but still alive in Purgatory) is all it takes to end the Apocalypse.  Whether Moloch rises again, or some other demon takes over, or something else remains to be seen.  Basically, as I understand it there is a lot more to this Apocalypse than Moloch.  He was just the front man.

[RiddleyWalker]

I don't think killing Moloch (assuming he's really dead and not just gone from our world but still alive in Purgatory) is all it takes to end the Apocalypse.  Whether Moloch rises again, or some other demon takes over, or something else remains to be seen.  Basically, as I understand it there is a lot more to this Apocalypse than Moloch.  He was just the front man.

I think you're right, aquarian1. Next season on Sleepy Hollow--"Beelzebub rises!" ;)

[TwistedandBored]

I get that but can writers show us what is special about Ichabod and Abbie. Cause so far, I love them as characters more Abbie but nothing they do is different than what the others do. I want more focus on why these two were chosen as witnesses? 

[RiddleyWalker]

I get that but can writers show us what is special about Ichabod and Abbie. Cause so far, I love them as characters more Abbie but nothing they do is different than what the others do. I want more focus on why these two were chosen as witnesses? 

I agree. I just really like the name "Beelzebub"--it makes me laugh! Back to your point, though, what does it really even mean to be a "Witness"? How were they chosen and do they have any special powers? A little more info, please, writers!

Edited December 4, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[Yolapukka]

Can someone please explain to me what the stakes are? If this was the mid-season finale and we we just saw a cliffhanger, what is it?
 
What the fuck did I watch?
 
Moloch has apparently been either slain or banished back to his realm, one of the horsemen has been stopped, the other is bound, Henry has *ahem* been redeemed, at no cost to himself. Irving's earthly troubles with homicide charges, institutionalization and signing over his soul have been resolved for better or worse, (Worse!!!!!) with his death and oh yeah, the Cranes had a tiff and might be on the outs. This is like a fairly weak and disappointing series finale, not a midpoint to an ongoing story.  Are we supposed to worry that team witness will spend the rest of the season tied up to trees in the forest while Henry yammers on? Actually, that definitely scares me. The writing is so tone deaf and contrary that I'm legitimately worried that they will run with the notion that John Noble could make a reading of the phone-book interesting by writing the dramatic equivalent of him reading the phone book. They've already come close to it.

 

What the hell were those special effects? The flashing lightning was fairly standard but at least they made use of it by having it knock out the electronics in the Ichabbie car, which also led to the motorcycle ride, a throw-away that was the high-point of the episode. The teeny tiny demon army looked like they'd escaped from an old Disney kids movie in their zombie make-up and tricorn hats. I can't believe that the terrifying Moloch of last season was a wee glowing pink skeleton in his final moments. That shit was legitimately hilarious, but I don't think that was the intent.
 
Unless the death of Irving is a big old red herring, I don't see the point of killing him. Even if he is to become a friend or foe from the hereafter, the execution of his storyline was poor. At least I care about it, Unlike the twinned CFD story-lines that have been eating the show.
 
I'm going to try to bypass from now on, as best I can, mentioning by name a particular void of a character that that does nothing for the show or my enjoyment of it.  Tom Mison sold the hell out of Ichabod's anger at and frustration with his wife. He is of course an actor doing his job and I have no reason to believe he has a personal issue with the actress, however I can't help but feel that some of that emotion had a real-life application to seeing a peripheral character eat the show that was working so well last year when he was co-lead along with Nicole. Especially when his formerly interesting character has often been rendered foolish to facilitate it.

Edited December 4, 2014 by yuggapukka

[savinggrace]

I may be the only person in the world playing a violin for Hawley but after rewatching the episode I think the gang treats him rather rudely considering how often he assists. I thought it was kinda mean to be like  "Hey, we're taking all your weapons and we need you to watch this headless guy. Oh yeah, Some demons might show up to try to kill him (and you) and you'll be on your own. Kthxbye!"   In light of the information dump Abbie laid on him, I though the lecture about "no partying" was a bit much and unnecessary. I also agree with another poster that there was some weirdness with his character. He went from introspective loner nursing a drink at the bar in previous episodes to rowdy frat guy.

 

I do wonder how Katrina and Crane will handle separation. Are they still going to shack up in Corbin's cabin together and live on Abbie's dime? They really need to address employment for Ichabod going forward.

 

The Witnesses seem to be the least important part of the equation as far as stopping the Apocalypse. I've never seen two lead characters so neutered and sidetracked in a finale before.

[Tippi Blevins]

When Ichabod said he wanted a motorcycle, I was hoping Abbie would say, "Well, get a paying job and buy one, you mooch."

[HalcyonDays]

I expect Irving will be back in some form next season, they need to resolve his soul-selling storyline.  Great that Henry turned on his master, but he's still a douche.  Now we have the inevitable Ichabod/Katrina breakup so she can get busy with the headless horseman.  So much bad soap opera is on its way.

 

I do wonder how Katrina and Crane will handle separation. Are they still going to shack up in Corbin's cabin together and live on Abbie's dime? They really need to address employment for Ichabod going forward.

 

I hope so regarding Irving. As for the Cranes, what separation? They both said they would be "comrades in arms" until Moloch is defeated. Well, he was defeated, so that's it. The breakup is over, the lies and deceit will never be addressed because Katrina can do no wrong and Ichabod never asks. They can go back to watching reality TV and having no chemistry and making me roll my eyes.

 

You know I am still confused about how anyone besides the witnesses can kill Moloch or wield that sword? If anyone can wield it or kill Moloch then why are The Witnesses needed at all? What is soo special about Abbie and Ichabod if everyone else can do their job for them? What separates them from Katrina, Irving, or Jenny? 

 

Good point. Irving could kill War's avatar easily, so you are right, what is the point of them. I can fanwank that since Henry is one of the Horseman, with the sword he can kill Moloch. Like with everything else in the show - a lack of mythology was hammered out, so they don't think things through when writing the episode.

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's keep the conversation in here on the episode - some posts were moved to the Media thread that linked to an interview with Orlando Jones and follow up conversation.

 

Also, @HalcyonDays put together a handy little index that you can get to under the Notes from the Mods topic, to help determine where you should be posting your various thoughts!

[vanarnd1]

To me this episode was representative of Season 2's issues. Good moments and action mixed in but not as fulfilling or enjoyable because the plot ends up being all about the CFD. The discussions felt very recycled, Abbie  trying to convince Ichabod to be ready to kill Henry(which of course he didn't do), and Katrina and Ichabod arguing(but Ichabod still listening to her about everything).

 

The fact that the Cranes did not have to make a sacrifice and seemingly were rewarded for their faith in Henry does not bode well for the rest of the season IMO. Henry's motivations for killing Moloch are still ambiguous so the writers have given themselves plenty of material to tease the CFD over the next 7 episodes. And with all this in the same episode that Irving dies it just leaves me disappointed and frustrated as a viewer because I think it is a sign that the show has passed the point of no return. That the CFD will continue to be the new theme of the show and that the other elements that were the draw for viewers in Season 1 will either be minimized or eliminated.

 

The biggest thing I took from this episode is that I no longer have any doubts about the the rest of Season 2. The audience will keep getting more of something they didn't ask for and it is a shame to me that an such a great formula has been messed with and maybe can never be fully recaptured again.

[phoenics]

As for the Cranes, what separation? They both said they would be "comrades in arms" until Moloch is defeated. Well, he was defeated, so that's it. The breakup is over, the lies and deceit will never be addressed because Katrina can do no wrong and Ichabod asks. They can go back to watching reality TV and having no chemistry and making me roll my eyes.

Wow - I just realized you are right - Moloch IS defeated so the "breakup" is over... and even if it isn't, Goffman plans to spend the rest of the season "explaining" Katrina so that at the end of the season, we will all bow down to her glory and understand why Ichabod does a "I'm so sorry for misjudging you oh great Katrina - your history FULLY explains that you are absolved of all sin and are perfect in thy sight!" and then takes her into his arms and they flit off for a second honeymoon while Katrina defeats all of the evil doers and Abbie is relegated to picking cotton in the field for a new Katrina corset.

Yes I'm bitter.

[cynic]

If Crane and Abbie were in such a hurry to get to the Apocalypse at the beginning of the episode, why did they stop to consult with a mechanic? Abbie is a cop! Why didn't she just call for a squad car? Our hell, call a cab! Does Sleepy Hollow have Uber?

[Yolapukka]

 

If Crane and Abbie were in such a hurry to get to the Apocalypse at the beginning of the episode, why did they stop to consult with a mechanic? Abbie is a cop! Why didn't she just call for a squad car? Our hell, call a cab! Does Sleepy Hollow have Uber?

 

When I saw it, I just fan-wanked that the mechanic was a short distance away from where their vehicle had broken down and the lightning that fried the electronics in the SUV also knocked out their cell-phones.  They were going to use the phone at the service station, but we saw the place get a lightning strike as soon as they mentioned it. Also, they may have a philosphical objection to Uber.

Edited December 4, 2014 by yuggapukka