The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Katherine]

I agree that Adam and Eddy aren't succeeding in writing Regina as a strong female character. But from what I've seen, the fan argument seems to go "Regina and Emma were strong before Robin and Hook came along. Get rid of Robin and Hook so they can be strong again". It seems like Adam and Eddy listened to this when it came to Regina. Unfortunately, these fans have conveniently forgotten that Regina's original arc also revolved around a man (the death of Daniel). I don't really see why she was ever considered a strong character. To me, murder does not equal strength, and as for her redemption, well,  refraining from murder doesn't necessarily equal strength either. IMO Emma is a much better example of a strong character. But to each their own.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Katherine

[Souris]

5 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I mentioned this in the Small Talk thread, but apparently A&E are very thin-skinned. At a party last week I ended up talking to a TV critic who covers this show. She used to cover House and got to know JMo there, then followed her to this show, interviewed her, and through her got to know Jane Espenson and also did interviews with A&E. Then at one point she tried to get an interview with them and was denied, and then she got in touch with Jane, who said she could talk to her about other stuff but couldn't talk to her about the show. Apparently, they considered her to have "trashed" the show when she wrote about how the characterization was going flat, specifically Rumple going from being fairly layered to just being a jerk. That might explain how weirdly bland or rah-rah the media coverage is, if you get blacklisted for anything critical.

Wow, that's truly pathetic. I can't say I'm shocked, because Adam has shown himself to be pretty thin-skinned on Twitter. They've also shown an inability to accept that constructive criticism may have a point. They often SAY things they know people want to hear, but don't actually follow through.

[Shanna Marie]

You can tell they're thin-skinned with the way they react to anything resembling criticism in interviews, where they either get defensive or start promising things to make the interviewer happy. That's kind of how we ended up with the whole Dorothy and Ruby thing. Someone asked about Mulan and they went overboard to say that not only would she be back but that they were planning on doing a same-sex love story. You can tell by the way they handled it that this wasn't really something they'd planned and they just felt obligated to live up to what they said in the interview. It's like they're afraid of disappointing the interviewer during the interview but forget about whether they're disappointing anyone in the actual episode. It seems like in any interview, if the interviewer asks about a plot line, they'll act as though that's a priority and they have big plans, and half the stuff they promise in interviews never comes about. It's a little desperate-sounding. Maybe that's where the "we'd love for that to happen" and "we'd be disappointed if that didn't happen" stuff comes from -- almost like they're separating it from themselves so the reporter will still like them.

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Maybe that's where the "we'd love for that to happen" and "we'd be disappointed if that didn't happen" stuff comes from -- almost like they're separating it from themselves so the reporter will still like them.

Maybe they're drawing on personal experience for this current storyline of split personalities, LOL.  Writer A&E vs. Promoter A&E.

[Mari]

Tvline article

 

I know it's come up in passing, but here's a link to an article about A&E's new series.  I can't say I'll be watching, because I'm uninterested in starting another show by this team, but I hope it's successful enough to keep them excited and busy and leaving someone else in charge of OUaT.  

 

Someone who who understands concepts like characterization, continuity, and math.

[Curio]

What is with Adam & Eddy's obsession with the 80s?

@Shanna Marie, thanks for sharing that behind-the-scenes tidbit. I think there's a fine line between listening to constructive criticism, fandom whining, and keeping with your original vision. They don't really do a good job of balancing all of those factors.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

43 minutes ago, Curio said:

What is with Adam & Eddy's obsession with the 80s?

They're Gen-Xers? The 80s are to Gen-Xers what the 50s are to Boomers.

Actually, I don't know their age, but I've noticed that the people on the younger end of the Gen-X spectrum tend to be obsessed with the 80s. Those would be the people who were kids/tweens during the 80s and didn't get to really live that era as teenagers. (Those of us who were 80s teens roll our eyes at them.)

Storybrooke was sort of stuck in the 80s, so that explains some of it, but then again, they could have chosen that date because of their 80s obsession.

[Curio]

3 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Storybrooke was sort of stuck in the 80s, so that explains some of it, but then again, they could have chosen that date because of their 80s obsession.

Oh, I totally believe they chose that date because of their 80s obsession. The Tron sequel they wrote was based on an 80s movie, Dead of Summer is set in the 80s, some of their favorite movies (e.g. Star Wars) is from the 80s, so of course they'd want to make Storybrooke stuck in the 80s just so they could have an excuse to play their favorite 80s music.

[Shanna Marie]

I must have been really out of touch in the 80s because I don't recognize the music they use. Is it from the late 80s? Because I almost never listened to the radio when I was in college, and that might explain it. I'm more up on early 80s New Wave, cheesy pop, and hair metal. 1986-1990 is pretty much a blank spot for me, musically.

However, the date for the start of the curse that Storybrooke was stuck in was somewhat dictated by Emma's age. For her to be around 30 (prime age for a TV main character), she had to have been born in the 80s. It was perhaps a merging of circumstances and interests.

[orza]

The math is easy since it was all spelled out in the pilot. . Emma turned 28 in October 2011 so she arrived in Maine and the curse begin in October 1983.

[Rumsy4]

58 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

 We know that stuff like Hook kissing Emma's hand as the elevator went up was improvised

We can't know that. Or at least, I wouldn't call it improvisation. Directions on scripts are pretty minimal. The writers would put in stuff like "a kiss for the ages" or "they hold hands". But they're not going to go into too much detail like fanfiction. Most of the things actors do are simply acting and directing choices. I think it can be hard to say where acting choices start moving into improvisation territory. I wouldn't call it improvisation unless it is pretty major or at least a little different from what's on the script, like adding extra lines or a kiss (like Reese and Carter in Person of Interest). 

I do think that many of the actors in the Show put in a lot of work in developing their character. That's why even with the uneven quality of the scripts, they're able to make a big impact.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Adam posted another script snippet, and I'm just finding that reading the script sometimes makes scenes less likeable.

Firstly, why would Regina be asking if they have a future together?  It's not like their relationship was on hold.  Plus she said this out of the blue in response to Robin referring to how Zelena might have the capability to change.  So what does it have to do with their future together?  It's almost like they wrote it so Robin could say the line about Regina being his future.  Because anvils, he will die.

The stage direction, "An epic passionate embrace" also struck me.  You can't just create an epic embrace when the couple has had practically no screentime or development the entire season.  

Regina calling Robin Hood "thief" sounds cringey on paper, but the actress did make it sound natural.

[InsertWordHere]

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

We can't know that. Or at least, I wouldn't call it improvisation. Directions on scripts are pretty minimal. The writers would put in stuff like "a kiss for the ages" or "they hold hands".

I agree. I think it's likely the director or actors saw the set design for the Underworld elevator and realized they had an opportunity to keep Emma and Hook physically connected for as long as possible. 

[3dog]

What was funny about that scene was that Hook kissed her through the bars of the cage, then pulled it down.....to reveal it's totally open at the top and they could have full-on embraced sans bars. I feel like the director needed all the help from the actors that he/she could get after that bit of awkwardness.

[Curio]

3 minutes ago, 3dog said:

What was funny about that scene was that Hook kissed her through the bars of the cage, then pulled it down.....to reveal it's totally open at the top and they could have full-on embraced sans bars. I feel like the director needed all the help from the actors that he/she could get after that bit of awkwardness.

I noticed that too, but I think Emma stopped the bars from going down all the way because once they're fully locked into place, the elevator goes up. They get a longer goodbye by stopping it and kissing through the bars.

[daxx]

Or they were afraid if they embraced without a barrier they wouldn't be able to let go.

[Shanna Marie]

I suppose there's a fine line between improvisation and interpretation. I've heard actors talk about shows that were so rigidly scripted that if an action wasn't in the script, it didn't happen without phone calls to the EP/showrunner, so the only room for interpretation was in precisely how the scripted actions were carried out. In the case of the scene in question, the hand kiss wouldn't have happened without getting it cleared because it wasn't in the script, so that would have been considered improvisation under those circumstances. While A&E are thin-skinned as writers, as EPs they don't seem to be rigid control freaks, so maybe on this show that sort of touch, along with all the little things Colin comes up with to compensate for the fact that they keep forgetting that Hook only has one hand (like tying the bandage with his teeth), counts as interpretation. When it comes to physical action, they may be allowed to treat the script as a jumping-off point rather than a rigid order.

As for what happens in the background and how scripted or controlled it is, there was some discussion in the DVD commentary for the season 2 finale about the business going on aboard the Jolly Roger in the background while Rumple and Belle were saying their farewells in the foreground. They were supposed to be preparing the ship to sail to Neverland, and Colin talked about how his leg was hurting so badly that he really didn't feel like walking around, so the way he played it was Hook was giving orders to the others and making them carry things around on the ship. It ended up not showing at all because they tightened the shot on Rumple and Belle so we didn't see the business on the ship, but it made it sound like the actors in the background have a lot of freedom in how they interpret/improvise what their characters are doing. That makes me wonder if David hugging Hook in the background at Robin's wake was in the script or was Josh coming up with what he thought David would do while they were in the background. Given that there was barely any other emotional reaction to Hook's return, either that was scripted and was their way of showing some reaction, or it was unscripted because they totally forgot to write an emotional reaction to Hook's return.

[3dog]

11 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Given that there was barely any other emotional reaction to Hook's return, either that was scripted and was their way of showing some reaction, or it was unscripted because they totally forgot to write an emotional reaction to Hook's return.

There have been other times where characters barely reacted to something that really should have elicited a big emotional punch. Like the episode when Gold reattaches Hook's hand, and Hook shows up for the big date with his hand in place. It was the first time in, what?, 100 years? That he'd had both hands. The normal reaction would be to ooh and ahh and ask Hook how it felt after all these years, etc. That should have been huge. But they were all like, "Two hands. Huh." Are the writers intentionally saying that the characters are so used to magic that absolutely nothing, including coming back from the dead, fazes these people, or do they just consistently forget to insert important emotional beats?

[Souris]

My money would be that the hug was 100% Josh & Colin. A&E clearly didn't care a bit about the emotional ramifications of Hook's return on anybody but their holy blessed Regina.

[Rumsy4]

OTOH, there was no need to have that wide angle to the shot, if the background hug was unscripted. 

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, 3dog said:

Are the writers intentionally saying that the characters are so used to magic that absolutely nothing, including coming back from the dead, fazes these people, or do they just consistently forget to insert important emotional beats?

I get the feeling they don't even think about emotional beats unless they directly affect the plot. You only see someone reacting emotionally if it leads to something like casting a curse or going into the Underworld. The little stuff or even the big stuff that isn't plot-related is ignored, and the characters seldom get to act like normal people who react in normal ways. It's either way over the top, like casting a curse or going to the Underworld, or doesn't exist. I've sometimes wondered if these writers are on the autism spectrum, maybe a touch of high-functioning Asperger's? Because they don't seem to understand emotions, they get obsessed with a few things that they drive into the ground, and they can be really touchy about how people react to the things they're obsessed with. It reminds me of what it's like to deal with people I know who have been diagnosed.

[orza]

It was certainly scripted. Big scenes like that are complicated to shoot on a tight schedule because they have so many reaction shots and different camera angles to set up and film. There is no time for actors to improvise and try stuff out. Everyone has to do what they are told and get it right the first time to finish on schedule.

[Curio]

Unless Adam says so on Twitter, I guess we'll never know if the hug was scripted or not. But based on the way the shot was framed, with the hug perfectly centered in the middle of Emma and Regina (which requires putting tape on the ground and blocking the scene), and the fact that the director even chose to film Jennifer's reaction shot and her smirk to seeing the hug, I'm assuming the director deliberately filmed it that way and told Josh and Colin to do it. So there might be a decent chance something was in the script. Maybe it was something like, "Off Emma's reaction to seeing her parents interacting with Hook --" That way, Josh can choose to either clap Colin on the shoulder, give a big hug, or just go up and talk to him.

On a slightly different subject... is anyone going to the ATX Film Festival? It's coming up in a few weeks, and I was debating grabbing a weekend ticket to check it out. Adam & Eddy will be there chatting about their new Dead of Summer show, and it would be very tempting to sneak in a few OUAT-related questions during the Q&A.

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Channing told A&E they can't kill off Prince Charming in the pilot.

It’s hard to imagine the show differently after so long, so it's hard to say if that was good or bad in the long run. On the one hand, Charming still being alive gave Emma a bigger family post-Curse (and Goodwin/Dallas ended up married with kids). But on the other hand, I can’t think much about the show would have changed for the worse if Charming had died except to have made it even more difficult to redeem Regina later. Snow likely would’ve been a more active character in subsequent seasons without Charming.

[Camera One]

Call me a hopeless romantic, but for me, a lot about the show would be different and less enjoyable if Charming had been killed.  Snow and Emma forgiving Regina would be even more difficult to swallow.  And as many have said before, this show is supposedly about hope, and how could we believe in happy endings if Snow White's happy ending was ripped away from her forever right from the start.  I seriously doubt the Writers would be any more interested in Snow than they are now, except they would be able to pair her off with a variety of new characters.  Even Season 1 would be a complete downer watching Snow and Charming fall in love and fight through a million obstacles, knowing that he was just going to drop dead at the end of it?

[Mathius]

Quote

Snow likely would’ve been a more active character in subsequent seasons without Charming.

Disagree completely.  Snow being turned into a shill for Regina is what has made her less active, not Charming.

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Even Season 1 would be a complete downer watching Snow and Charming fall in love and fight through a million obstacles, knowing that he was just going to drop dead at the end of it?

Personally, the Snowing flashbacks were the most boring for me anyway, because I already knew they ended up married later and it felt like they were stretching too little into too much. And the main reason we had so many flashbacks to them was because of what was going in the present episodes, usually.

The only thing I would miss if Charming had died is the moment after the Curse was broken and they remembered each other.

2 hours ago, Mathius said:

Disagree completely.  Snow being turned into a shill for Regina is what has made her less active, not Charming.

There's no way Snow would have been able to forgive Regina if Charming had died. At most they'd have a tense, but non-violent relationship for Henry's sake only, with Snow throwing barbs regularly.

[Camera One]

This is the same show where Snow has forgiven Regina for killing her father, murdering a village, and separating her and her daughter and husband for 28 years.  Where Emma has forgiven Regina for destroying her childhood and thought no differently of Regina after watching her burn Snow to a crisp at a stake.  Where Robin Hood easily forgave Regina for committing massacres and killing Marian.  Where Regina easily forgave Zelena for raping Robin Hood after getting a few childhood memories back.  Where Henry still calls Rumple "grandpa" after he tried to kill Emma and used Hook's death to gain powers.  Where Belle has forgiven Rumple again and again for evil schemes.  Where Regina still hasn't assigned blame to Cora for the death of Daniel.

So I have no doubt that these Writers would make sure that Snow would have forgiven Regina even if Charming had died, and they would still have cast everything as Snow's fault.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

54 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Snow and Emma forgiving Regina would be even more difficult to swallow.  

Quote

There's no way Snow would have been able to forgive Regina if Charming had died. At most they'd have a tense, but non-violent relationship for Henry's sake only, with Snow throwing barbs regularly.

One would think. But then, Emma seeing Regina burn her mother alive should have been a deal-breaker. Except, that turned out to be the time Emma started completely bending over backwards to redeem Regina. I doubt Charming's death in the pilot would have made any difference to the current relationship between Regina/Snow or Regina/Emma. 

The writers tend to write for Snowing as an unit/interchangeably. I remember a S4 blooper where Josh was annoyed when Ginny said his line (and it made no difference). Personally, I'm very glad the network stepped in to save Charming. He adds the quality of great screen-presence and charm to his scenes. 

Edited May 21, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Writing Wrongs]

I decided to put in Season 4 of Lost today and I was watching the episode "The Economist" written by A & E. One of the offscreen characters is named Regina. Every time they would say her name, my eyes rolled. 

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

The writers tend to write for Snowing as an unit/interchangeably. I remember a S4 blooper where Josh was annoyed when Ginny said his line (and it made no difference). Personally, I'm very glad the network stepped in to save Charming. He adds the quality of great screen-presence and charm to his scenes. 

This has become the norm since 3B.  Snow and Charming have received so little characterization that it is impossible to tell who says what 95% of the time, and how their mindset differs from one another.  I'm actually surprised in 5B that they actually got Mary Margaret to realize she wants to be Snow.  Not that it was developed very much, but that's the first strong characteristic action that they have written for Snow since 2A... not even a pregnancy can be an excuse for being given nothing for 3 seasons.  Criminal misuse of Ginnifer Goodwin is these writers' biggest crime in my books.

[Rumsy4]

36 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Adam Horowitz @AdamHorowitzLA  
@JmosDocGal actors and directors use the script to create interpretations. We do many versions of every scene

Adam HorowitzV @AdamHorowitzLA  
@ncfIurry my guess is the director tried multiple versions

More confirmation that actors and directors play a big role in bringing scripts to life.

[Shanna Marie]

Maybe the director and/or actors thought it was weird that the script showed so little emotion about Hook returning from the dead and tried to insert some. If they were trying to act in-character, it would be natural for them to be showing affection and emotion. You know, after they thought they'd lost each other forever and had miraculously been reunited.

I think if I'd written this episode, I'd have claimed every ounce of extra emotion that got put into it. Otherwise, it's kind of embarrassing that they sort of forgot to let the characters react to a major event. "Um, yeah, I totally wrote a kiss there. Pity it got cut in editing. I also wrote the hug between David and Hook. There were more hugs in the script, but they must have been cut in editing."

[Camera One]

They probably cut the kiss since they needed it to be the big "epic" scene at the end.

[KingOfHearts]

On 5/17/2016 at 3:25 PM, Curio said:

"It's just, you know, there's just so many...there's just so many people that it's like, it's sometimes hard to do that story and sacrifice Regina's story."

"That's showbiz."

Quote

This is the same show where Snow has forgiven Regina for killing her father, murdering a village, and separating her and her daughter and husband for 28 years.  Where Emma has forgiven Regina for destroying her childhood and thought no differently of Regina after watching her burn Snow to a crisp at a stake.  Where Robin Hood easily forgave Regina for committing massacres and killing Marian.  Where Regina easily forgave Zelena for raping Robin Hood after getting a few childhood memories back.  Where Henry still calls Rumple "grandpa" after he tried to kill Emma and used Hook's death to gain powers.  Where Belle has forgiven Rumple again and again for evil schemes.  Where Regina still hasn't assigned blame to Cora for the death of Daniel.

See, this is what gets me - I was able to tolerate all of that until the S5 finale. It all just hit me for some reason. We've been discussing on these boards the lack of consequences and morality on the show for quite some time now. I can't seem to figure out what the writers did differently. Many of the most recent problems are simply retreads of what we've already seen.

Edited May 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

See, this is what gets me - I was able to tolerate all of that until the S5 finale. It all just hit me for some reason. We've been discussing on these boards the lack of consequences and morality on the show for quite some time now. I can't seem to figure out what the writers did differently. Many of the most recent problems are simply retreads of what we've already seen.

Maybe it's becasue the writers ignored the obvious set-up the Underworld arc provided for the villains to face consequences of their actions. Instead we had Cora going to heaven, Rumple murdering the same people twice over, and Regina being coddled by her parents. Plus the season finale turned Regina into a caricature of herself. More in the All-Seasons thread.

[Camera One]

At least Twitter provides the usual entertainment.

Someone brought up an interview where A&E was asked if we will see Robin Hood's "backstory and the dark side that we've heard so much about", and Kitsis replied "Second half of the season, absolutely."

Adam's reply:

Apparently, it was just poor word choice, LOL.  

[Serena]

When was the "absolutely" interview? That could give us an hint about when they decided to kill him off. It wasn't in the original plan for S5, I guess.

[RedKeep]

Adam spent all day yesterday embarrassing himself on Twitter while responding to people who where giving him a hard time over how they wrote Robin in season 5 and the more than awkward, ultimately rather insensitive visual choice of staging a passionate CS reunion with Robin's coffin still in the picture. Him calling it "poor word choice" is already progress, considering this started out with him accusing fans of twisting his words, misquoting him/the writers and telling fans they should "avoid interviews and social media". I really don't understand why someone with such a thin skin makes himself so available on social media in the first place, but also never learns from past mistakes on top of that. Clearly there is no way they could make the fans who cared about the character and the way he was written off feel better about what happened because they messed up badly, but if he doesn't want to admit that... at least keep your mouth shut on the topic altogether. I honestly don't understand what he thinks he's achieving with this sort of mess.

[Faemonic]

On 5/19/2016 at 2:52 AM, Katherine said:

This is a really good point. I noticed a pattern of them inserting Regina into Captain Swan arcs but I hadn't realized it was so specific to episodes written by Adam and Eddy. I agree that they love the character of Regina, but I also can't help but think it has a lot to do with vocal fans on Twitter. I don't know about Eddy, but I know Adam is pretty preoccupied with those fans. And when the criticisms are all about Once Upon a Hook, Captain Rapist, homophobia, a lack of strong female characters, and not enough screen time for Regina, I can see why Adam takes them to heart (except the Regina screen time one; I don't see how any fans can make that particular argument when Regina had both the 100th episode and the season finale devoted to her).

But I do think Adam and Eddy like Hook, and they know he has a big fan base too, so their solution becomes "let's insert Regina into Hook's stories; then both sides of the fandom get what they want". It just doesn't end up working (...) the problem is when Adam and Eddy start sacrificing the quality of the writing to accommodate everyone's wishes.

That's what I considered strange about Swan Song. Writer's Pet and dark horse Fan Favorite, united for the first time in a real scene since the Papa Pan arc! Why was it not working. These are the showrunners. I thought that meant that they...umm...got it more than everyone. But something about it left me feeling as though I'd watched a really bad episode. With what they had to work with, every character and element a piece of epically explosive chemistry? I was flabbergasted as to how they managed to make it fall so flat. The only conclusion I can reason out is there isn't any good writing being sacrificed. That, that's just really the way that they write. So...showrunners as idea people maybe more than scene dialogue people?

[Mathius]

3 hours ago, Serena said:

When was the "absolutely" interview? That could give us an hint about when they decided to kill him off. It wasn't in the original plan for S5, I guess.

October, so yeah, it was before they planned on killing him off since Sean said they told him in January (3 months later) and that the reasoning was because by the end of filming 5A or by the end of 5A's airing, A&E got assured of a renewal, and they realized that just couldn't write for Robin and OQ for another season and decided to kill him off and give Regina a more interesting story to work with.

Adam was also insisting to fans on Twitter that the resolution to the River of Lost Souls was there in the episode and addressed...which yeah, it was, but it went by way too quickly, Hook said the "things are beginning to change now that Hades is gone" line so absurdly fast that many people naturally missed it.  They needed to slow the heck down and let that moment breathe, but what else is new.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Mathius

[orza]

Or the network told A&E that letting Sean go was part of budget cuts for season six and they needed to plan for that in their story. Showrunners can pitch the idea to kill off a character for dramatic reasons but ultimately the network or studio as the owner of the show and the actor's contract partner is the decision maker. From what Adam has said, I doubt it was their idea to let Sean go. But that's not something he can talk about publicly.

I read Adam's tweets from yesterday and I don't see anything embarrassing about them. His only mistake was perhaps trying to talk reasonably to a few people carrying on like bratty, self-absorbed teenagers who just want to go on and on about their precious fee-fees. But if he wants to interact with them that is up to him.

While it's not necessary for viewers to understand all the ins and outs of how the business works, it's reasonable to expect that grown-ass adults realize that this is a dynamic business in which plans can and do change on the fly and the real customer showrunners need to keep happy is the network, not the fans.

[Mathius]

Orza, I again implore you to share more about what you know about the behind-the-scene stuff you talk so surely about.

Because really, I feel some honesty about the "whys" in these situations would go a long way, rather than the excuses A&E constantly make.

Quote

and the real customer showrunners need to keep happy is the network, not the fans.

Even if that is the reality, it's not done them much good now, has it?  (We're currently at a 1.3 average for the show, following two seasons in a row of 2.1 averages, which means that a majority of fans not liking the back half of Season 4 and much of Season 5 definitely had an impact.)

Edited May 28, 2016 by Mathius

[myril]

Just watched Nerdwriter's recent vlog about intertextuality - and I had to think of OUaT. Nerdwriter sees a trend in Hollywood (blockbuster movies) to cheapen intertextuality to merely sentimental fan service, a ploy without much text. He calls it weaponized intertextuality. So, if anyone wonders why OUaT ist still running, there you might have one explanation: it's very much in line with that trend. While the writers managed at the beginning to give it some text, the past two seasons totally drowned in twists and references being there pretty much just for the sentimental thrill of pushing favorite Disney and some other fantasy characters into the show. Some lasted a few episodes, otherwise I would simply call them all cameos, because they seldom had much more meaning than that. I think for example not even Hades had much meaning as a character, despite him killing now just another true love of Regina. It could have been anyone doing so, it didn't matter at all that it was Hades. Could have been as much Zeus or Dracula, it would make little difference to the main characters and overall arc of the show. Nor does it make any difference for the audience, I think, because the writers don't  create actual intertexuality. All they do is create little wow-moments of sentimental and nostalgic value, at best.

Robin is an example for why such approach bites them. Thrown into the show as rather a cameo, they let him come back as love interest for Regina. They recast the character, guess because fo availability (?), but on the other hand looking at what they made of the character, it's interesting that it felt like they actually created a totally different character. Maybe Tom Ellis would have kept on creating a different tone playing Robin than now Sean did, but think much of it was due to the writing and the writers wanting, needing, Robin to be now a quite different character than the one they had created as one-off. I still am at a total loss why it had to be Robin Hood though. There was nothing, despite some disjointed dialogue lines maybe, that actually made it to me feasible why Robin Hood, that iconic outlaw, should be the one to woe Regina's heart and maybe help her to become a better person. I mean, I get it, the fun, of making an archetype good avenger the love of the archetype of feminine revenge and envy, that sure has some irony. But I barely noticed them working with the text of the tale or its many variations and even less creating new one for Robin inside the OUaT universe. So in the end I couldn't care less about his demise, I don't feel the loss that maybe Regina might feel at all, Robin is to me just some other rather cameo now gone. There was little text, as there was no intertextuality, all he was was a prop for Regina's character. Could have been anyone.

They did a better job with Hook. I don't know, maybe they had more thought out about him before they brought him into the show, so it's less of a messy improvisation like Robin Hood was. Maybe it was because he more of a story on his own before he was turned into a love interest for one of the main characters.

When looking at Belle there might be something to that, because Belle barely is anything more than a prop to Rumple, barely anything but his love interest. They tried a bit to give her her own story, there are chunks of intertextuality even, but that all seemed to have happened more as an afterthought. It feels to me like she was not meant to be much more than a one-off at first either, but they quickly improvised more to keep her on the show. And IMO are doing no good job with it.

The writing is a hell of a sentimental fun ride, with little emotional (lasting) payoff though, and it's like a rubber ball bouncing of any attempts of a more layered view, reducing the appeal for a more intellectual type of geekery. Great shallow entertainment. But as long as the writers (and the cast) keep on babbling about the show creating hope, of character development meaning anything deeper, there will be plenty of people not in just for a sentimental fun ride, they are looking for meaning. 

 

21 hours ago, Mathius said:

Even if that is the reality, it's not done them much good now, has it?  (We're currently at a 1.3 average for the show, following two seasons in a row of 2.1 averages, which means that a majority of fans not liking the back half of Season 4 and much of Season 5 definitely had an impact.)

 

 

 

 

The writers still make the network happy enough, they got another season, don't they. Doubt ABC would hesitate to cancel the show or move it to another place, particular not with the change they just had. Considering the overall picture in ratings and ongoing change in viewer habits I think those numbers are for ABC not bad. Of course they always would be happy if they were better, but the question is, what numbers are realistic. When discussing we have to keep in mind that the network have access to far more numbers and information about viewers and marketing statistics than any of us has. And they are interested in different things than most fans or audience are.

The networks might not even give all numbers to the show runners, just an excerpt, though show runners or their production companies might buy some information on their own, to have arguments in budget talks, depending on how independent they are or can be. The networks and their analysts interpret what they think the audience wants, and they do that in numbers, they don't care about the details audience and fans care about. But not even how many watch is the most important number, but who the network hopes to be watching, and in the case of any broadcast depending at least to some degree on advertising, if that audience then attracts advertisers. In this case it's not important for example if the audience likes or dislikes a same-sex story, it's important if the advertisers the network wants to attract or has for that time slot are okay with their advertising being shown in such a context. And the advertisers will be comfortable with that and pay good for it, when LGBTQI people are one of their target groups or open minded, liberal, tolerant people are, or when the company wants to maintain a reputation of being open minded, tolerant, liberal, and they think or hope it's good for their business. There can be a difference between consumers of a product a company makes and customers of that company. In TV and film business fans so far are not the most influential stakeholders, they count as numbers, as a mass of consumers only. For the production companies, the writers, the cast and the crew the fans certainly are consumers of their work but are not their customers. The fans are not directly buying the show. Orza is right about that.

Edited May 29, 2016 by myril

[maryle]

OK I was occupied with the weather finally warmer up in my little corner of Canada but I looked a little bit at what up with Adam. All I saw was excuse make by Adam or him making vague comments about CS will hopefully love what comes next. 

But it seems most the debate are overall the now famous CS kiss scene and not about the final or what coming for Regina. I mean Regina fans should be happy about her focus in the final and in up coming season. No? 

I wonder if A. and E. are a little concern about it.

They usually praise themself for their twist! But, it does seem that this time the chock factor did not building up any buzz factor? 

[Camera One]

I had to laugh when Adam insisted they didn't think of the kiss as "making out".  I wish he'd just not reply at all rather than to make statements like that.

[Rumsy4]

Ewwww!!!! lol

[RedKeep]

1 hour ago, maryle said:

I mean Regina fans should be happy about her focus in the final and in up coming season. No? 

I'd imagine Regina fans in general, whether they actually liked her with Robin Hood or not, find it hard to trust the writers right now. Can't say I blame them. They raised certain expectations with how they set up the Regina/RH pairing before they even met on screen, then apparently changed their minds halfway through the story, likely because they realized they'd written themselves into a corner, and now did an absolutely catastrophic job wrapping it up instead of putting serious effort into fixing their own mess. Besides, while the idea of a split personality may or may not give the actress some good material to work with, the story (and the moral tied to it for the character) itself is repetitive and likely does her no real favors. The change in the relationship with Zelena was completely rushed and unearned too. I can see how even longtime Regina fans would be bored and disappointed with what the writers cooked up for her in 5b and with regards to the 6a  preparations in the finale. Ultimately screentime/focus isn't everything when the quality of the writing is mediocre at best.

Edited May 29, 2016 by RedKeep

[YaddaYadda]

I think the biggest mistake when it came to Regina and Robin's pairing was to not have had them fall in love during the missing year. For a show that loves, loves, LOVES doing flashbacks, that was their golden opportunity imo. So yes, here's that stupid pixie dust, and the lion tattoo, but that's basically the only reason Regina gives Robin half a chance. If they had had them fall in love in the EF in 3B, done flashbacks here and there, maybe season 4 wouldn't have felt like the Twilight Zone with Regina's reaction to Marian arriving on the scene, because she and Robin had just gotten together. And Robin wouldn't have looked like a total douche choosing a week long romance over a woman he loved for far longer than that. 

I think this is where the writing went completely wrong. 

I remember being very surprised when the writers said that no, Robin and Regina weren't an item during the missing year. It's right there, this stuff writes itself, why not use it. It's not like they didn't do Snowing falling in love in flashbacks either, and that worked just fine.

I still wonder after an arc where we know there's the UW, and people can move on to better a better place, and be happy, WTF it was that prompted the writers to obliterate Robin's soul like that. We already know that there's no chance of him returning because no one can leave the Underworld. 

Talk about trying to erase 2 season long mistake. Can't get anymore final than that.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I think the biggest mistake when it came to Regina and Robin's pairing was to not have had them fall in love during the missing year. 

So much this. I remember speculation about Curse 2 coming during their wedding. If OQ had dated for a year, or even gotten married, then the whole Marian situation would have been less icky.

Quote

I remember being very surprised when the writers said that no, Robin and Regina weren't an item during the missing year. It's right there, this stuff writes itself, why not use it. It's not like they didn't do Snowing falling in love in flashbacks either, and that worked just fine.

What's worse is that not only were they not an item, but they were almost hostile to each other. The contrast to present day was stupidly heavy.

Edited May 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts